Lizzie Ledger - from owner

[ecbkaye]

Hi Everyone

This is my first time for any kind of forum, which you will no doubt notice, so please excuse me until I get the hang of it.

I am the owner of the ledger signed 4 times by Lizzie Borden, or should I say WE are the owners. I must include my wife [she who must be obeyed] as we own everything together.

Today for some unknown reason I decided to do an internet search for ?Lizzie Borden signed 4 times? and your most interesting forum popped up. Reading what people are saying about you, like a fly on the wall, was indeed fascinating. I mean really interesting. Much of what was said was accurate and of course there was a lot that was not, and would need clarification. Much of it was subjective of course, such as the various comments about the item?s value. Of course I wanted to jump right in so you could get it straight from the horses?s mouth but I needed to register first and then perhaps we all could get the discussion going again since the ledger is currently on ebay now. Yes, folks ITS BACK AGAIN. Don?t misunderstand me, I?m not doing this in hopes that any of you are going to buy the item based on anything I say. You all have pretty much expressed your opinions about it being wildly over priced. As for its value you may all be correct and we may be wrong. However, it seems to me that a discussion about the value of Lizzie?s autograph might be of interest to most of you. Its perhaps one of the few, if not the last, areas not really explored concerning Lizzie. EVERYTHING else seems to have been researched, analyzed, and discussed to death. Many are interested in the value issue but - and here comes the 1st bullet - who or how many people are expert enough to really be qualified in an appraisal of Lizzie?s autograph? I may be correct when I say that there are no sales records for her autograph, except one many years ago, for anyone to make a comparison with. Someone referred to the ?book value? which is another discussion - one that I am willing to take part in as well. You would need a lot more background on the Sanders Autograph book to know how to use it.

See, already I?ve been too lengthy here so I will end to see what this brings forth. Please, feel free to fire away and by all means don?t be shy about the nature of your questions. Nothing, it seems to me, is out of bounds in connection with the LIZZIE LEDGER. This is what we call it now. I like the sound of it.
Let?s hear from you.
Merv

P.S. Not because we own it - I?ll stick my neck way out and say that virtually ALL other Lizzie Borden so-called autographs that have appeared on ebay, except those 4 in our in the LIZZIE LEDGER, were fakes. Certainly all of the signed Lizzie books are fake.

[Kat]

Thank you for taking an interest here!
If only all E-Bay sellers of potential *Lizzie* items had done so!

Could you provide a link to the sale so we have a clear idea of that which we discuss?
Thanks!
-Kat

[ecbkaye]

Thanks for asking - that would be helpful. Not sure I know how to provide the link but I'll try here. I just tried twice and I see that I don't know how. Can you help me. Thanks.
Merv


http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 2259925189

[Kat]

Oh good! You did it!
I just wrote to help but it seems you figured it out.

It seems that the Andrew Borden signature may be more rare than Lizzie's.
I recall Michael Martins at the Fall River Historical Society saying he didn't recall ever seeing one of Andrew!

[ecbkaye]

the link to the Lizzie Ledger on ebay is

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 2259925189

[Harry]

First, welcome to the forum ecbkaye.

The item itself is very interesting and I don't have much doubt that the signatures are probably what they are represented to be. As you have noted, we have looked at the signatures in the past and had some doubts due to the difference in style. However I for one am certainly no expert in handwriting.

Do you know the company's name that is issueing the dividend? We know for a fact that Lizzie owned 2 shares of stock in the Fall River National Bank.

At her trial in 1893 Emma Borden produced a list of Lizzie's financial assets. Included were: "Two shares of the Fall River National Bank, April 3d, 1883." (page 1530) I assume the 1883 date was the date they were purchased.

I also note another name on the list, Annie W. Blaisdell. At the Inquest and Lizzie's Preliminary hearing the presiding Judge was Josiah C. Blaisdell. I checked the glossary in "The Commonwealth of Massachsetts vs. Lizzie Borden: The Knowlton Papers" (page 408) and Judge Blaisdell's second wife's name was Annie (Wilcox) Mitchell. The Blaisdells resided in Fall River which also agrees with the listing.

[ecbkaye]

No, thre is no mention of what the company is.

[william]

Dear echkaye (I hope I pronounced that correctly)

Welcome to the Forum!

I wish to take exception to the closing remarks in your message: "Certainly all the signed Lizzie books are fakes."
This is incorrect. I wrote an article for the Lizzie Borden Quartetly in July, 1998 entitled, "Ex Libris Lizzie Borden." Shortly after the completion of the article I received a communication from Mr. Robert Flynn, well known Borden scholar and author. Mr Flynn related how he had recently authenticated seven novels that were formerly in Miss Lizzie's library.

The books were donated to the Lizzie Borden Bed & Breakfast/Museum by Leslye Featherline. Mrs. Featherline's great aunt was the second wife of Ernest Terry, chauffeur for Miss Lizzie when she resided in Maplecroft.
The books contained authentic seals of Maplecroft as well as signatures of Lizzie Borden.

The Fall River Historical Society has a travel book entitled "Italy" that was once the property of Miss Borden. Mr. Dennis A. Binette, assistant curator of the Society, told me he had knowledge of other books from Lizzie's library whose owners wished to remain anonymous.

Mr. Binette also informed me that in 1996 a dentist from the Boston area had brought to the Society a set of books by William Makepeace Thackery.
He wished to compare the Lizzie Borden's signatures in the the volumes, with the authentic signatures in the Society's archives.

I hope this information is helpful.

[ecbkaye]

Hi William:

Perhaps I should have been more clear with that remark. I was referring to items that are/were offered on ebay. Of course, I couldn't make valid comments about other items that I have never seen. You know, I assume, about the bogus signed Lizzie books that are accompanied by a COA that can be traced back to the estate lawyer. Bob Flynn is the person whom we purchased the Lizzie Ledger from. His judgment, in my opinion should be unquestioned.

To make such a comment about the authenticity/fakes on ebay shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone as a very high % of all autographs on ebay are not authentic although its also true that a high % of the sellers are not aware that their autographs are not authentic. This is esp. true because of the high number of entertainment and sports autographs.

I did a 20 year study of the appearances of Lizzie autographs to have appeared on the auction market and located only one, a letter. There were no appearances of signed books. Although they may very well be authentically signed books in existence, I'll take your word and those who you speak of, but I doubt that any of the authentically signed Lizzie books have appeared on the auction market. Therefore people are forming opinions about the value of Lizzie's autograph based on fake signed items, which of course would be inaccurate. Her autograph is considered among the rarest of any American. Anything signed Lizzie is esp. rare. Obviously she discontinued using Lizzie after the murders [when signing].

The point I am trying to make is simply that anything signed by Lizzie is rare. And because of this - obviously the crooks are going to make and sell the fakes. People buy the fakes and these sales are what determines the value of her autographs in peoples' minds. So peoples' ideas about their values are based on non-authentic examples. Sorry for such a lengthy reply.
Merv

[william]

Hello Merv,

You mention an authentic letter signed by Lizzie Borden that you have seen during your wide experience in this field. I'm sure the readers of this Forum would be interested in the contents of that letter, if you are in a position to reveal it.

[ecbkaye]

That would require doing all of the research again. I do remember it being a routine matter. If I remember it was a request to a delivery man or something like that.Not of important content.

I'm afraid that this topic is not going very far. I thought it would based on the first time back in 2004 when we listed the Lizzie Ledger on sothebys because there was then a large number of people talking about it - A fool and his money are soon parted, some doubts about the authenticty of the signatures, devaluation is separated, priced much too high. Where have all of you gone? Here's your chance to speak directly to the "fool" who bought it. Fire away.

[Kat]

http://lizzieandrewborden.com/Archive70 ... Signed.htm

Here is a recent discussion to which this member refers.

[Stefani]

Hello ecbkaye! I fondly remember the first time I saw your auction on ebay and the discussion it inspired. I agree with you that the price of auction autographs of Lizzie is based on forgeries and so the authentic signature would probably be worth what you are asking. However, I can't imagine being able to afford such a wonderful item. My largest Lizzie purchase was a $300 copy of a first edition of Porter. It seemed to me at the time to be a great deal of money!

I would love to own an authentic Lizzie autograph and your item is indeed exciting.

I remember when Robert Flynn was selling his collection on eBay and I wrote him about the Emery Scrapbook. For that one item alone he wanted $3000 if I remember correctly. I could only dream.

If you don't get your price, have you considered donating it to the Fall River Historical Society for a tax deduction? I would think that would be the appropriate home for such a valuable thing.

[ecbkaye]

As we are self-employed we can't afford to donate it. Surely most historical societies have wealthy members and it would make sense, if they want something, for one of their members to purchase an item for their collection and they can take the tax deduction. Most people self-employed in the business of buying and selling historial artifacts are not well off enough to afford buying items and donating to an institution.

Historical Societies usually sing the blues about being short of funds. This may be so in some cases but most also have well-heeled friends who should be happy to put up the funds and take the tax break. Most of these wealthy people understand tax issues better than the rest of us I assume, and therefore the main reason they probably won't do it is because there really is no benefit dollarwize to them if they make such a donation, esp. if they pay what its worth. Of course, its different if someone has something that's been in the family for a long time and no one paid much for it.

You are correct if this sounds a little tough. Whenever an institution suggests that we donate an item because they can't afford it I get a little incensed. I tell them to ask one of their heavy-weights to step up and do the right thing. Or I tell them about how well the Univ. of Michigan Clements Library does it. They publish a great newsletter, actually its a magazine, which features the items they've added to their collection, then ask for donations to cover the cost. Or they will write an article about a specific collection/item and ask for donations for THAT item. This way the donors know where their money is going.

[lydiapinkham]

Hello, ecbkaye!

Good luck to you on the signatures. I think it's useless to talk about market value of autographs: autographs are worth what people are willing to pay. The main problems I see here are that people have no precedent to go by, and many of the people who have the most interest lack the funds to pay your asking price. (I know I do.) I can see your finding a buyer with an eye to investment if you are willing to wait for the right one to come along.

2 questions for Harry and Kooreys:

1st, are the signed Lizzie books from the L.A. days? The "Lizzie" signature, if it is unique, might command a higher price, I would think.

2nd, would Andrew have signed himself atty? Was he given to assigning himself titles? I keep thinking it might be another Andrew; however, the middle initial is right. (I notice there is a Lydia/Lydie. )

--Lyddie

[lydiapinkham]

I just discovered the name of another minor player in your ledger: John S. Brayton, a friend of the Morses. It was he who testified, "I never heard of any one of them as being insane or having any streak of insanity"! (Rebello 175)

I also notice a Sept. 1892 date in a memo to page 2. Would Lizzie have been signing the ledger in Taunton Jail, or might Emma have signed and paid for her. The significance of the period involved might affect the ledger's value, mightn't it?

--Lyddie

P.S. I just looked again, and I'm almost sure that the second signature is Emma signing for Lizzie; that would account for the steepled "A" and the change in style on the first name. Ordinarily, such a thing would decrease value, but under the circumstances, it might increase the value instead. Collectors love items that tell a story, and that proxy signature following the original and preceding the trial would certainly tell one humdinger of a story!

[ecbkaye]

I never noticed that date. Think it is Dec. 1882, not Sept. Just looked at it. Anyway the ledger covers a period through April 1991. It appears that someone [clerk] enters the names in alphabetical order on the left side. Then the people signed the ledger on the dates to the left of their signatures which would account for the dates not being in chronological order. Note that Lizzie and Emma both signed on Oct. 15. The Atty following Andrew J. Borden suggests that it isn't THE Andrew J. When we contacted the Fall River Historical Society they told us that there were many Bordens in the area, even another Abbie as you can see. At first we thought this a little strange but have since accepted this explanation although still its odd. Odd = interesting??? Someone from your group back around 2003 emailed to say that the Andrew J. Borden was a relative but we've never been able to verify this. Someone mentioned earlier that Lizzie owned shares in at least 2 businesses but we actually she owned shares in many more. Somewhere on the net appears her will listing all of them. Quite a few.

An autograph is worth what someone is willing to pay for it. Hard to argue against this however we should realize that there is a big difference between price and value. The value of anything is not necessarily its price, which may be higher of lower. Just because an item hasn't yet sold does not mean that its price is too high or too low. That just means that not enough people have seen it - in other words its a process still in progress. If I accept the idea that something is worth what another is willing to pay for it then our Lizzie Ledger is worth $4000 because that is what we paid for it. We paid this thinking its value to be higher. We were offered $4000 not that long ago, thereby there are at least 2 idiots living who were willing to pay $4 grand for it. After so many years of asking for a modest profit of $1500 on a $4000 investment it occurs to me now that we probably should have paid $2000 originally and sold it for $4000. Then it would have been a done deal along time ago.

[ecbkaye]

Here is a tip for comparing handwriting examples that few know about. When comparing 2 or more examples of handwriting it is best to look at them side by side UPSIDE DOWN. Why? Because then you are comparing the handwriting and not the formation of an individual letter or small groups of letters which vary in everyone's handwriting. It helps when the pieces being compared are from the sme generl time since some people's handwriting changes over time. President Carter's handwriting was, for instance, much larger and clear during his good times in office. During the hostage crisis his handwriting became smaller, almost as if he was trying not to be noticed. This is an unconscious human behavior. When held upside down you ask yourself "Do I think that the same person wrotes both examples?" Is the flow, slant, spacing similar in both. If not but you know or expect that both are written by the same person then you look for other reasons. Jonathon Trumbull, called Brother Jonathan by George Washington, signed his last name Trumbul until 1766. His handwriting was quite different early on and therefore an untrained eye, seeing just one L, would conclude that it wasn't signed by him which would be a mistake. The circumstances under which the signature is made makes a big difference also. A contract signed by a rock star will look alot different tan a quick signature written on the back of a fan he's trying to get away from. Sorry for the lecture.

[ecbkaye]

Well I see that the very long tip suggestion I typed didn't appear. I won't go into all the detail again other that to say when comparing handwriting its best to look at examples side by side UPSIDE DOWN. This way you are not comparing letter formations but are comparing handwriting. People often, usually make letter formations differently.

[diana]

Hi Merv --

Thank you for those interesting notes on signature comparison.

Here's my take on the "Andrew J. Borden atty" signature.

I tend to think that it could be our Andrew J.'s signature. It appears to be in receipt of a remittance to Mary Ann Borden and, according to news reports of the time, Andrew was guardian for Mary Ann's estate. She was the daughter of Andrew's uncle, Thomas Borden. I think Andrew may have written in "atty" to indicate that he had 'power of attorney' for Mary Ann and as such was entitled to receive this payment.

That being said -- I have met Robert Flynn -- and have a lot of respect for his expertise in Borden ephemera. So if he is the person saying it is not Andrew's signature -- that would give me pause.

[ecbkaye]

Hi Diana:

Andrew's signature - that is interesting. If I remember right Bob Flynn said he didn't think it was THE Andrew because of the ATTY following the signature, not because of the handwriting. Thanks for the information.
Merv

[william]

Hello again Merv.
In your eBay offering, you indicate there are four signatures of Lizzie Borden for sale. However, on the two sheets of the ledger that are depicted, there is one sheet where all of the names are apparently written by a clerk, or someone in charge of the ldeger. On the second sheet there is arguably a bono fide signature belonging to Lizzie. You are offering four signatures as an incentive to purchasing your item, but only illustrate a single signature belonging to Miss Borden.
I would think anyone interested in purchasing this item would want to view all four signatures, not just one. Certainly by illustrating all of the signatures you would be providing a greater incentive to any buyer who may wish to acquire this bit of memorabilia.

What do you think?

[Kat]

http://www.lizzieandrewborden.com/Archi ... andrew.htm

Counting Andrews Topic
[Diana had been studying the Mary Ann Borden question tho this makes it seem like I was- I helped with a citation is all.]

[ecbkaye]

You are right about someone who is interested in buying this ledger, that they would want to see all 4 signatures. Actually we are showing 2 of the signatures. If you will scroll to the right you will see the other.

[Kat]

http://www.lizzieandrewborden.com/Archi ... oomuse.htm

Here's another

[Stefani]

I hope you get the money you are asking, but I don't think you will. I am not saying that what you have is not *worth* what you want and what you think it is, just that from personal experience, there are not a ton of Bordenites out there. Did you mention that you tried Sothebys? You would get a catalog listing out of them and a wider more monied crowd who are true autograph collectors there I would think.

One thing you mentioned I thought I would underline----that a lot of the stuff on ebay Lizzie autograph-wise is not authentic. That might tell you that ebay would not be a place people would go to buy such items, especially extra special items like the one you own. It much cost you a pretty penny just to post the sale each time.

I am really gald you came her to discuss your ledger. If this thread dies out or you go somewhere else, you must come back and tell us when it sells!! We are all into it again!

[lydiapinkham]

Merv, what I meant about Emma's signing for Lizzie is that the 2 were obviously in the habit of contributing separately, but I don't believe Lizzie would have been in a position to do so while in jail. I find the ledger tremendously interesting because of its dates. The only date I see that contains a year is in the 2nd photo, 6th line down. Both of us had the month wrong: it is October of 1892, and instead of a signature contains the notation "Paid ? Nat Bank under release at Nov 25 1892." Below that entry we find Emma and Lizzie. Upside down or right side up, that signature appears greatly changed from Lizzie's signature from the year before. That could indicate a proxy signature or a change in Lizzie's signature due to the stress of incarceration. Either way, signatures from those 2 years have, I think, historical significance--much more than if they were 1890 & 91. The date of the previous entry does not contain a year, but if it precedes the other in the ledger, it should mean Fall of 1891.
I believe you might play up the significance of the dates--before and after the crime--in order to get your asking price. There are criminal memorabilia collectors out there; you might try targeting them in addition to autograph collectors.

I agree with Stefani that you might want to try other venues than eBay for this offering.

--Lyddie

[ecbkaye]

No, I don?t believe that any of the 4 Lizzie or Emma signatures were signed post-1891. At the head of every page in the year, the last year being 1891. The month dates to the left of the signatures would be when the person signed the ledger i.e. Lizzie Oct. 15, which would be in the year 1891. Same for Emma who also signed Oct. 15 [1891] on that page showing. That entry for 1892 was actually signed in Dec. The space for the signature reads Nov. 1892 but that?s not when it was entered. Yes, of course the value might be higher if Lizzie signed one of the pages after the murder but anyone inspecting the ledger would realize that she signed pre-1892.

OK here comes my next autograph lecture. In both examples showing Emma?s signatures remain the same, esp. the ?ODEN.? Notice how Emma makes her ?en?, the end letter slanting downward and the type of ?e?. Lizzie?s, except for the middle initial, also remain the same. Her last ?n? always turns upward and she also uses that different ?e?. I myself interchange these ?e? in my own handwriting. There are other less obvious differences and all of these brings me to, I think, the best reasoning as to why Emma didn?t sign Lizzie?s signature on the ledger. The reason is simple common sense. There would have been no reason what so ever for Emma to have practiced and learned to copy her sister?s handwriting. And even if there had been some reason for Emma to have practiced Lizzie?s handwriting she would have failed in her attempts as seen in the obvious differences. Often when authenticating handwriting and signatures you have to use common sense as well your knowledge of historical facts. Such as a right-handed man losing his right arm during the civil war and learning later to write left-handed. Of course one could think of 1000s of reasons for why a person?s handwriting might change over the years. In this case there should be no question in anyone?s mind that Lizzie signed all 4 of these, that is because her signature isn?t difficult to research. There are many examples in autograph references because of her fame. The opposite, I think, can be said of Emma?s signatures. Less famous = little or no examples in books for comparison. I assume that one could find examples at Fall River though. Common sense again says that if Lizzie authentically signed this ledger 4 times on those dates, the Emma would have done the same.

The questioning and/or doubts that some may have about 2 of the Lizzie signatures, it seems to me, come pretty much from the 2 different middle initials. Absent this no probably would not be this discussion.

Just a brief word about where to sell this Lizzie Ledger. As mentioned earlier we tried Sothebys.com without results. There are many reasons for why it failed to sell there - could be price, could be that very little % wise was selling at sothebys.com. We know because we were Sothebys Associates and are well aware of the shortcomings of that short-lived Sothebys venture. We knew from the beginning that Sothebys.com was doomed but we kept hoping that they would understand the internet [light would go on sooner or later] and make the changes necessary. In my discussions with various people people at Sothebys in charge of their internet operations it became clear to me that they felt that the sellers & bidders would have to change to do it the Sothebys way. Sothebys wasn?t going to really look at what makes it work for internet sellers & bidders because the only viable source to look at was eBay and Sothebys turns red or green whenever eBay is mentioned. They simply didn?t want to become another eBay and I heard this from them over and over. Whenever they found themselves backed into a corner and couldn?t find an answer they would say ?We don?t want to become another ebay.? We did sell a lot at Sothebys and did get higher prices there over ebay. Sothebys actually phoned one day to ask us to consider raising our prices. When I said higher prices would mean less sales they said again ?Perhaps but we don?t want this to turn into another eBay.? There are 1000s of authentic items that sell on eBay every week and for all of its ills how can one argue with ebay. Its been great for use. What I suspect will eventually happen with the Lizzie Ledger if it sells on ebay is that someone new will stumble across it and buy it or post-auction someone will make us an offer we can?t refuse. If I remember right someone from this forum did email us asking if they could buy it on time and not asking for a discount. So one of you there who is saying ?I?d love to own it but can?t afford it? perhaps came close to owning it at one time. What happened to the forum members who made all of the earlier comments about this ledge in 2003? Have I set a record yet for the longest message on this forum? Fun doing this anyway.

[Kat]

No, I don't believe that any of the 4 Lizzie or Emma signatures were signed post-1891. At the head of every page in the year, the last year being 1891. The month dates to the left of the signatures would be when the person signed the ledger i.e. Lizzie Oct. 15, which would be in the year 1891. Same for Emma who also signed Oct. 15 [1891] on that page showing. That entry for 1892 was actually signed in Dec. The space for the signature reads Nov. 1892 but that's not when it was entered. Yes, of course the value might be higher if Lizzie signed one of the pages after the murder but anyone inspecting the ledger would realize that she signed pre-1892.

OK here comes my next autograph lecture. In both examples showing Emma's signatures remain the same, esp. the "ODEN." Notice how Emma makes her "en", the end letter slanting downward and the type of "e". Lizzie's, except for the middle initial, also remain the same. Her last "n" always turns upward and she also uses that different "e". I myself interchange these "e" in my own handwriting. There are other less obvious differences and all of these brings me to, I think, the best reasoning as to why Emma didn't sign Lizzie's signature on the ledger. The reason is simple common sense. There would have been no reason what so ever for Emma to have practiced and learned to copy her sister's handwriting. And even if there had been some reason for Emma to have practiced Lizzie's handwriting she would have failed in her attempts as seen in the obvious differences. Often when authenticating handwriting and signatures you have to use common sense as well your knowledge of historical facts. Such as a right-handed man losing his right arm during the civil war and learning later to write left-handed. Of course one could think of 1000s of reasons for why a person's handwriting might change over the years. In this case there should be no question in anyone's mind that Lizzie signed all 4 of these, that is because her signature isn't difficult to research. There are many examples in autograph references because of her fame. The opposite, I think, can be said of Emma's signatures. Less famous = little or no examples in books for comparison. I assume that one could find examples at Fall River though. Common sense again says that if Lizzie authentically signed this ledger 4 times on those dates, the Emma would have done the same.

Pardon me please. I had trouble reading this very interesting discourse because my screen showed me question marks where, I believe, Quotes and Apostrophes were meant to go. So I changed that puncuation so I could read it more clearly. It may only be me- so I hope it's OK with you.

I thought this was a good *lecture* on signatures, including what you wrote earlier!

Thanks!

BTW: If you mean you are missing our member "Edisto"- we all miss her and wish her well.
-Kat

[Kat]

Here are 2 of Emma's signatures.
The first is from Spiering, which he got from the FRHS, the other from this ledger.