Doctor, Doctor Gimme the News...

[Susan]

Well, it supposedly came from Bridget and do we know if they had Bridget's testimony from the inquest?
It may be in her testimony at the inquest, or they may really believe Nellie because apparently Hilliard hired McHenry (and so his wife, Nellie) to help in the investigation.
After the Trickey scandal it was hard to sort out who did hire him.

True, I recall reading a recent post about the Inquest testimony being lost and then found. It would be wonderful to get a look at Bridget's Inquest testimony. As Eugene pointed out, Bridget was questioned about Lizzie crying that day in the Prelim, but, not about Dr. Bowen, I wonder why not?

[john]

Thanks haulover. I'm just trying to figure if a deep face cut by a hatchet would normally pull out an eyeball with the eye closed, or the eyeball would be more likely to come out with the eye open.
Also, if one looks at Andrew's skull wounds, one wound is incongruent with the rest.

[john]

Who is Eugene? Are you talking about "Eugene the machine?"

[Haulover]

***Who is Eugene? Are you talking about "Eugene the machine?"***


that's probably it -- aka Haulover, which is short for Hal of 2001.

but that's the only clue i'm giving away free.

[Tracie]

Hi Allen,

I think that maybe Dr. Bowen had never seen such a disturbing stire and wanted someone else to wittness it. Or .....when a accident/fire/murder happens, people start coming out of the wood work to lurk around and maybe see something. Look at all the acidents on the highway that cause more accidents.

My mom had a fire at her house while she was away and I was acting as head of the household, when all these peole started showing up at her house. Many were bold enough to enter and start wandering around the house. I had to tell quite a few to leave. Anyone who knew my mom no matter how slight felt entitled to come in and look around. Some of these people had never visited her home before this time. People are curious, even if the vision is so disturbing that you can never erase it from your mind.

Tracie

[john]

How much for the rest of the clues, Machine? In fact, rather than just giving you money, which as you and I know, just goes out the window, I'll back you for $ 500, and guarantee you a $ 500 winning, and you'll start with a larger amount, $ 1,000 and you can't lose because you get your $ 500 back. Also, I'll set up the machine before hand so that you will win, and will be around if you have difficult hands to consider. It's a win/win/win/win/win!
But the bottom line is you win!
Can I fax you a contract?
There are still major questions about Bridget. They've all been stated. I think the Bridget angle is that Lizzie knew something about Bridget which was worse than death in those days and maybe even now. What it is specifically, we'll never know, but it would explain her actions.
And lets just say definitavely, that Mr. Morse, is not a bunglee who happened by, but that he is a part of the crime. Because he said he heard Mrs. Borden ask Bridget to wash the windows, and there is absolutely no way he could have heard this.
So now if we look at anything Mr. Morse has said we look at with the vein that he is a liar, and probably self-serving. So we look at his coming in at about noon and through the front yard and not seeing any people, and say that is a mostly lie. We know that he visited his neice on the murder day, but he didn't really live that far away, why stay over at the Bordens? He says to visit shirttail relatives, but now we have to look at that as a lie. He says he helped Andrew with business matters, yet from his dimeanor, he is accepted as a dolt, and we now have to think of his economic guidance as a lie.
So Uncle John is a liar - is Bridget?
In solving a crime you firstly establish paramaters. There are people and places and distances. Secondly you find the liar through questioning on and on about the same issues. Thirdly you heat on the liar.
This surely wasn't done in this case, but there is enough meandering testimony to reconstruct it. On just one Bridget issue, either Mrs. Borden told Bridget to wash the windows that morning, or Lizzie asked Bridget to wash the windows, or she just did them on her own, but there is a testimonal item that tells us which scenario it was. Can you find it?
You have done so well on the pin and the key so far!

[Kat]

I think Morse came at about a quarter of noon, and also Andrew's eyeball was not hanging out, it was cut in half.

I agree, Tracie, about Dr. Bowen's motives. I think he was shocked enough to want to share the sight.

[john]

There you go with semantics again. OK I'll use your words and say his eyeball was cut in half. Now does that mean more likely that his eye was open when it was cut, or that it was closed? This is a very good example of issues which are obfuscated, and obfuscate means "to confuse." I'm begging to think that you are confusing the truth by fact. There is so much fact here, yet little truth.
I used to raise a few chickens. And the chickens would come out with me in the morning, and follow me around, and peck at the back button on my pants. Now the chickens actually believed that I was their mother, because I'd had them since they were just a few days old. But in spite of their belief, that didn't make me their mother. And you're trying to impose belief about Lizzzie Borden, that in spite of the facts, you accept.
Now you can give me anybody in this case, and I'll show you why what they did defies logic. But that doesn't really matter, because people aren't totally logical.
The key here is progression. What progressed and was likely to happen. One thing that happened was that Uncle John left, and that would be a good starting point. Why did he leave at all, or why did he leave when he did?
For that matter why did he come at all? - I'll listen.

[sguthmann]

the more i read on dr. bowen, the more things strike me as very odd. for instance, going waaaay back to the witness statements, several people say that dr. bowen told them abby had merely "fainted with fright"...uh, had he seen her?! because if he had, wouldn't it have been pretty apparent that she wasn't merely passed out on the floor? wouldn't the BLOOD on the bed and the wall and the floor and hacked off pieces of hair and flesh been a big clue?! and IF he truly believed she'd fainted, wouldn't he immediately set about trying to help her regain her senses, to try and learn what had happened?? he's got a dead guy downstairs, and a live gal upstairs, and who does he spend his time with? the one that's beyond help? not exactly very "doctor-like," not to mention completely ODD!

George Allen-Witness Statements:
“When we went up stairs the Doctor said Mrs. Borden had fainted with fright. Officers Mullaly and Doherty turned her over. Officer Doherty said “My God her face is all smashed in...”

P. H. Doherty-Witness Statements:
"...he (Dr. Bowen) followed this by saying “to make matters worse, Mrs. Borden is lying dead up stairs. I suppose she saw the killing of her husband, and run up stairs, and died with fright.” I requested to see her; and on going up stairs found her lying on the floor, face downward, between the bed and dressing case. Several spots of blood was on the bed, and also a large tuft of hair. On examining the body, I found she was lying in a pool of blood. I informed the Doctor of the fact, and he expressed much surprise..."

Reading on through the statements, it appears that this example of odd behavior is the tip of the iceberg, as far as Dr. Bowen is concerned. I intend to keep reading and making notes to share, but this struck me so, I just had to comment about it now. I mean, c'mon?! He walks in the house, finds a man has just been horribly murdered, sees (or is told??) that the wife is lying immobile on the floor upstairs, assumes that she has probably just fainted from shock, and proceeds to just leave her there for a while...only to learn find out later that "the Mrs." hasn't merely fainted -she's been hacked to death too! and he's surprised?!?

[sguthmann]

i meant to also include that if you accept what he told Harrington, that Abby was dead, you'd think if he knew that much, he'd know how/why she died! the hacked up head and blood should have given him a clue. so if he had examined her closely enough to know she was deceased, then why was he surprised to learn she's been murderered? why didn't HE know that already? i wonder, did he SEE abby? did someone (Lizzie or Bridgett) TELL him abby was dead and he jumped to his own conclusions as to how and why? was he TOLD she had fainted and died? IF one accepts the unlikely event that he only knew about abbby being dead because someone had told him (ie he hadn't gone and checked it out for himself), then WHY later under questioning didn't he ever say, "well so-and-so told me abby was dead, fainted dead away from fright, and that's how come i was so darned surprised to learn she had been viciously killed..." - and then he could of said WHO it was that had told him such a thing to begin with. i'm trying to take this one instance and look at it from every conceivable angle, and there isn't ONE that makes any sense! unless, of course, you start looking at the more sinister reasons someone would act in such a way.

[Haulover]

my impression is that the eyeball was sharply cut in half -- that is to say, distinctly. and with the flesh laid open as it was, there would be no way to know whether or not his eye was open, or which direction it was looking, or any such thing. i'm trying to understand what you're seeing graphically. this is the effect: the whole concept of "eyelid" disappears, eyeball exposed and sliced -- what comprises "eyelid flesh" obliterated and withdrawn, whether eye open or closed, that thin flesh vertically severed. the eyeball may have "popped" enough to sit at the surface of a pool of blood. the eyelid would have been no kind of barrier. WHY are you looking at that eye?

***There are still major questions about Bridget. They've all been stated. I think the Bridget angle is that Lizzie knew something about Bridget which was worse than death in those days and maybe even now. What it is specifically, we'll never know, but it would explain her actions.***

what is lizzie's relation to this? how do you know the scandalous behavior pertains to bridget and not to lizzie? okay........what sort of thing, psychologically-speaking, would explain bridget's actions?

i'm intrigued by your "worse than death" phrase. someone thought the bordens were "worse than insane."

i'm inclined to ask you to state a conclusion and then backtrack -- but then again, just go ahead as you are, if you can keep it moving.

[Kat]

"There you go with semantics again. OK I'll use your words and say his eyeball was cut in half. Now does that mean more likely that his eye was open when it was cut, or that it was closed? This is a very good example of issues which are obfuscated, and obfuscate means "to confuse." I'm begging to think that you are confusing the truth by fact. There is so much fact here, yet little truth. "--john

Before I read any further, let me explain that whatever the solution, it will fit the facts in the case or it is useless, no matter how creative anyone is. An autopsy record is factual, a description of the body is evidence. Why not work with the facts, like what happened to Andrew's eyeball? There's enough mystery about the case without throwing around estimates or errors.
A timeline can necessarily be more flexible.

[Kat]

BTW: Don't mind me- this is what I do. If a theory will stand the test of facts, it will stand on its own without any trouble.

[john]

That's what I'm trying to do, to discern if there's a way to know if his eyes were open or closed when he was hit there. RB. It's not important if he was just napping, but there is another trail.
And further, does Audrey like Buck owens? I have tickets to the "He Haw" Revival, and does she want to go?

[john]

If Audrey does want to go to the "He Haw" revival, tell her I'll pick her up at 8:00 in the Merc and we'll go to the malt shop first. The concert starts at 9:00 and continues until George Jones shows up.

[Kat]

Per Eugene/haulover:
"my impression is that the eyeball was sharply cut in half -- that is to say, distinctly".

You have a point which refers to the weapon, what kind, style, type, size, weight, how sharp etc. These things are important.

[Allen]

Is it possible that the murder weapon was hidden inside a sack of dry goods in the pantry?

[sguthmann]

Is it possible that the murder weapon was hidden inside a sack of dry goods in the pantry?

just about anything is possible. hmmm...i don't suppose we'll ever know how thoroughly that house was searched? did police at the time even make a listing of the items they removed from the home? perhaps it was more of a piecemeal operation?

[Inspector]

Not to sound negative, but all the experiments in regards to Bowen seeing Abby’s body through mirror reflection are irrelevant, because the bureau, and mirror are not original to the crime scene, and neither is the bed frame, and mattress. All these factors added together make a sum total that cannot be trusted.
A slight angle in the original mirror would make a huge difference possibly.
There is an original photo where the camera can be seen in the original mirror that seems to be in the doorway, and possibly something can be drawn from that.
I don’t get the impression that Bowen spent much time “standing” in the doorway, rather he passed through, and got his first recollection of seeing her about that point in the room.
Could have been her feet, or a reflection in the original mirror.