Recently had a storm go through and deposit some huge branches in my yard and I thought I might try experimenting while I chop up some firewood. Was wondering if the axes for sale today are similar in weight to what they would have had back in 1892? Just wanted to see how hard it would be to swing an axe that many times, I am about Lizzies same height and weight, more or less from what I can gather. I am thinking she did not do physical work and probably had very little muscle tone. Therefore I want to see how hard it is to swing an axe that many times.
Any ideas - how long or how much an axe weighs, would like to try to duplicate the experiment as close to possible as I can. I know nothing about axes, but really want to try this.
How heavy is an axe?
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bobarth
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How heavy is an axe?
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Harry
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Dr. Dolan testified at the Preliminary about the force necessary to produce the wounds on Mr. Borden, page 99+
"Q. (By Mr. Jennings.) You have never had any experience in a matter of that kind that enables you to base your judgment upon the degree of force that it would take?
A. The skull is bone, we know about the degree of force it takes to break a bone, we know the thickness of the skull at a certain point, and I do not think it requires any previous trying or experimenting to know about how much force it takes.
Q. (Mr. Jennings.) Irrespective of the weapon used?
A. In my answer I was going to designate what in my opinion a hatchet of a certain weight would do. A hatchet of a certain weight that would break the skull at the point where this was fractured and broken would not break it at another part. In other words, a person falling from a height and striking on the top of his head, does not generally break the top of the head, but breaks the base of the skull, where the force is directed; because the top of the skull is so much thicker than the base.
Page 100
Q. (By Mr. Jennings.) Is there anything in your experience that enables you to estimate the degree of force that would be required to break the skull at the point indicated in the question?
A. If you mean by that I have made an expert study of how many pounds of how much force it would take, no sir, I have not.
(Court.) The question may be asked, and the Doctor may answer so far as he is able to. I do not see how a living man can answer the question correctly without all the circumstances attending it and surrounding the question.
A. I think a person, with a hatchet four or five pounds, I do not mean a robust person, but an ordinary individual, could very easily cause the fractures that were found in the skull."
There are various descriptions of the weights of the hatchets that were found in the Borden house. The lowest was 2 pounds, the highest was 5 pounds. The length of the handle is also of importance as it helps provide leverage.
EDIT HERE: I took a quick look at the handle lengths of the various axes and hatchets found and they were from 14 to 24 inches.
"Q. (By Mr. Jennings.) You have never had any experience in a matter of that kind that enables you to base your judgment upon the degree of force that it would take?
A. The skull is bone, we know about the degree of force it takes to break a bone, we know the thickness of the skull at a certain point, and I do not think it requires any previous trying or experimenting to know about how much force it takes.
Q. (Mr. Jennings.) Irrespective of the weapon used?
A. In my answer I was going to designate what in my opinion a hatchet of a certain weight would do. A hatchet of a certain weight that would break the skull at the point where this was fractured and broken would not break it at another part. In other words, a person falling from a height and striking on the top of his head, does not generally break the top of the head, but breaks the base of the skull, where the force is directed; because the top of the skull is so much thicker than the base.
Page 100
Q. (By Mr. Jennings.) Is there anything in your experience that enables you to estimate the degree of force that would be required to break the skull at the point indicated in the question?
A. If you mean by that I have made an expert study of how many pounds of how much force it would take, no sir, I have not.
(Court.) The question may be asked, and the Doctor may answer so far as he is able to. I do not see how a living man can answer the question correctly without all the circumstances attending it and surrounding the question.
A. I think a person, with a hatchet four or five pounds, I do not mean a robust person, but an ordinary individual, could very easily cause the fractures that were found in the skull."
There are various descriptions of the weights of the hatchets that were found in the Borden house. The lowest was 2 pounds, the highest was 5 pounds. The length of the handle is also of importance as it helps provide leverage.
EDIT HERE: I took a quick look at the handle lengths of the various axes and hatchets found and they were from 14 to 24 inches.
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Kat
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That's a great post, Harry!
By the trial, they had turned their attention to the handleless hatchet. Before that the opinion was the claw hammer hatchet was possbly the weapon.
And do you know the difference between a hatchet or an ax?
Here is some hatchet testimony: and it should be mentioned that no ax was considered in court.
Trial
Dolan
Q. What, in your opinion, caused these wounds?
A. I should think some sharp cutting instrument, possibly a hatchet.
Q. And this sharp cutting instrument would be with or without the leverage of a handle?
A. It must have a leverage.
Q. Of a handle?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. So you qualify your answer by saying it must be some sharp cutting instrument with a handle?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Would a hatchet be consistent with the nature of the wounds that you found there?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. In your opinion were the wounds that you found upon the skull of Mr. Borden such as could have been inflicted with a hatchet by a woman of ordinary strength?
A. Yes, sir.
MR. ADAMS. Well, wait a moment. Do you want that?
MR. KNOWLTON. (After a pause) You asked me to wait, so I am waiting.
MR. ROBINSON. We objected to it.
MR. KNOWLTON. I didn't hear you object.
MR. ADAMS. We do not insist upon the objection.
(The question was read.)
A. Yes, sir.
Page 906
Q. In your opinion were the wounds which you found upon the head of Mr. Borden such as could have been inflicted with a hatchet by a woman of ordinary strength?
A. They were; yes, sir.
------
107
[claw hammer hatchet]
Q. How large a hatchet was that?
A. I think it had a cutting surface of about five inches, possibly more.
Q. How much would that hatchet weigh?
A. That hatchet. I think weighed from three to five pounds.
. . . . .
176
Q. Did you measure at any time, Doctor, the length of the handle of the hatchet that you have described?
A. No sir.
Q. Have you an opinion about its length?
A. I could not say, I should think it would be about probably eighteen inches or two feet, eighteen inches probably.
Q. Do you mean from the hatchet to the end of the handle?
A. No sir, from the blade to the end of the handle, the inner edge of the blade.
Q. Did you at any time measure the length of the edge, that is the breadth of the blade of the hatchet?
A. No sir, I did not.
Q. Did you weigh it?
A. No sir
Q. Have you any opinion about its weight?
A. No, I should think it weighed from three to five pounds.
Q. And the handle was about eighteen inches to two feet long?
A. Yes sir.
--Your local hardware store will explain the difference between an ax and a hatchet, which I had asked myself twice before- and I still can't remember the difference!
By the trial, they had turned their attention to the handleless hatchet. Before that the opinion was the claw hammer hatchet was possbly the weapon.
And do you know the difference between a hatchet or an ax?
Here is some hatchet testimony: and it should be mentioned that no ax was considered in court.
Trial
Dolan
Q. What, in your opinion, caused these wounds?
A. I should think some sharp cutting instrument, possibly a hatchet.
Q. And this sharp cutting instrument would be with or without the leverage of a handle?
A. It must have a leverage.
Q. Of a handle?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. So you qualify your answer by saying it must be some sharp cutting instrument with a handle?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Would a hatchet be consistent with the nature of the wounds that you found there?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. In your opinion were the wounds that you found upon the skull of Mr. Borden such as could have been inflicted with a hatchet by a woman of ordinary strength?
A. Yes, sir.
MR. ADAMS. Well, wait a moment. Do you want that?
MR. KNOWLTON. (After a pause) You asked me to wait, so I am waiting.
MR. ROBINSON. We objected to it.
MR. KNOWLTON. I didn't hear you object.
MR. ADAMS. We do not insist upon the objection.
(The question was read.)
A. Yes, sir.
Page 906
Q. In your opinion were the wounds which you found upon the head of Mr. Borden such as could have been inflicted with a hatchet by a woman of ordinary strength?
A. They were; yes, sir.
------
107
[claw hammer hatchet]
Q. How large a hatchet was that?
A. I think it had a cutting surface of about five inches, possibly more.
Q. How much would that hatchet weigh?
A. That hatchet. I think weighed from three to five pounds.
. . . . .
176
Q. Did you measure at any time, Doctor, the length of the handle of the hatchet that you have described?
A. No sir.
Q. Have you an opinion about its length?
A. I could not say, I should think it would be about probably eighteen inches or two feet, eighteen inches probably.
Q. Do you mean from the hatchet to the end of the handle?
A. No sir, from the blade to the end of the handle, the inner edge of the blade.
Q. Did you at any time measure the length of the edge, that is the breadth of the blade of the hatchet?
A. No sir, I did not.
Q. Did you weigh it?
A. No sir
Q. Have you any opinion about its weight?
A. No, I should think it weighed from three to five pounds.
Q. And the handle was about eighteen inches to two feet long?
A. Yes sir.
--Your local hardware store will explain the difference between an ax and a hatchet, which I had asked myself twice before- and I still can't remember the difference!
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Shelley
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Yes, a visit to a hardware store is a great idea,- and the men love to talk about tools. 
I got a lecture with way more info than I needed to know!
We have a lot of axes around the house, as my husband cuts wood for the woodstove- also splitting mauls, kindling hatchets and shingling hatchets. Someone also on another thread mentioned an ice hatchet which my husband uses when he goes ice fishing which is a great hobby here in New England.. A hole is chopped through the ice and baited lines dropped through (men will go to any extreme to catch a fish).
And the handles on these tools come in different lengths, axes always having longer handles than hatchets as much leverage is needed for big trees and heavy work. Hatchets, are more of a "hand tool" for smaller-scale labor than axes. Firemen sometimes come charging through the door with a fireaxe (as we found out on Second Street) to break down doors and sheetrock.
Sharpness is certainly a factor in efficiency. In the case of Mr. Borden, a great deal of the damage was inflicted to the temple, which is the thinnest area (in bone density) on the cranium. I recall a slice of Abby's skull was neatly removed from her cranium. The instrument must have had a clean, sharp edge.
I got a lecture with way more info than I needed to know! We have a lot of axes around the house, as my husband cuts wood for the woodstove- also splitting mauls, kindling hatchets and shingling hatchets. Someone also on another thread mentioned an ice hatchet which my husband uses when he goes ice fishing which is a great hobby here in New England.. A hole is chopped through the ice and baited lines dropped through (men will go to any extreme to catch a fish).
And the handles on these tools come in different lengths, axes always having longer handles than hatchets as much leverage is needed for big trees and heavy work. Hatchets, are more of a "hand tool" for smaller-scale labor than axes. Firemen sometimes come charging through the door with a fireaxe (as we found out on Second Street) to break down doors and sheetrock.
Sharpness is certainly a factor in efficiency. In the case of Mr. Borden, a great deal of the damage was inflicted to the temple, which is the thinnest area (in bone density) on the cranium. I recall a slice of Abby's skull was neatly removed from her cranium. The instrument must have had a clean, sharp edge.
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Shelley
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You won't believe what they say you can do with this hatchet!
http://www.rutabaga.com/product.asp?pid=1000860
http://www.rutabaga.com/product.asp?pid=1000860
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bobarth
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bobarth
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(men will go to any extreme to catch a fish).
So will some women I know. I used to tie flies and drive 2000 miles with my dad to catch a trout, only to release it. Like Lizzie, fishing is a great way to bond with your father.
So will some women I know. I used to tie flies and drive 2000 miles with my dad to catch a trout, only to release it. Like Lizzie, fishing is a great way to bond with your father.
The greatness of a nation can be judged by the way its animals are treated.
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1bigsteve
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Re: How heavy is an axe?
bobarth @ Thu Nov 09, 2006 2:58 pm wrote:Recently had a storm go through and deposit some huge branches in my yard and I thought I might try experimenting while I chop up some firewood. Was wondering if the axes for sale today are similar in weight to what they would have had back in 1892? Just wanted to see how hard it would be to swing an axe that many times, I am about Lizzies same height and weight, more or less from what I can gather. I am thinking she did not do physical work and probably had very little muscle tone. Therefore I want to see how hard it is to swing an axe that many times.
Any ideas - how long or how much an axe weighs, would like to try to duplicate the experiment as close to possible as I can. I know nothing about axes, but really want to try this.
The weights of the hatchets and axes from Lizzie's day to the present are about the same in weight. A hatchet is a single-handed axe. A hatchet handle is usually between 12" and 14" with some going as long as 18" for a Rigger's hatchet. An axe handle usually begins at 24" and goes to about 36". An axe with a 24" handle is mainly for light-weight people or light cutting. A longer handle is for serious cutting or splitting when a lot of leverage is needed. There are two types of handles. The "straight" handle is used for lathing, shingling, sheetrocking, broad axe and claw hatchets and double-bladed full size axes. The "fawn's foot" handle is for the Rigger's, Boy Scout, camping hatchets and the full-size single-bladed axes. The "fawn's foot" has the curve at the bottom end.
There are many different types of axe and hatchet heads depending on the intended use and the manufacturer's own designs. Lizzie's HH is a shingling hatchet and had a straight handle probably between 12" and 14" long and the head weighed about a pound. I have one just like her's but it is about 1 1/2 pounds and I installed a new fawn's foot handle. Up against Lizzie's it's a monster. I also have a claw hatchet like the one in Lizzie's cellar that was also used as a shingling hatchet and carpentry.
When you cut or split wood, Bobbie, make sure you have complete control of that axe and keep your eyes on the exact spot you want to strike. Use it with "authority", don't let it control you. People who feel intimidated by the axe or don't feel comfortable using it sometimes end up losing their toes. Treat it like a gun. It is your friend unless you get careless.
Cutting wood will build-up your stamina and put on some muscle. Have fun.
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bobarth
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1bigsteve-
Thanks for your information and your concern. I will read your words of warning again before I begin as I am partial to my toes. That was so sweet of you to give me a bit of advice on swinging a hatchet. I need all the help I can get.
Thanks for your information and your concern. I will read your words of warning again before I begin as I am partial to my toes. That was so sweet of you to give me a bit of advice on swinging a hatchet. I need all the help I can get.
The greatness of a nation can be judged by the way its animals are treated.
Mohandas Gandhi
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1bigsteve
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You are more than welcome, Bobbie. I bought an axe in 1963 that I still use. It pays to buy a good quality axe and a good whetstone.
I noticed you are quoting from "The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People" at the bottom of your page. I love that book along with "First Things First" and "The 8th Habit." I use the Franklin Planner and it has really saved my sanity.
I forgot to answer your main question: Axe heads weigh from 2 1/2 to 5 lbs. Hatchet heads run from about a pound to about 2lbs. Buy an axe that feels good in your hands.
-1bigsteve (o:
I noticed you are quoting from "The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People" at the bottom of your page. I love that book along with "First Things First" and "The 8th Habit." I use the Franklin Planner and it has really saved my sanity.
I forgot to answer your main question: Axe heads weigh from 2 1/2 to 5 lbs. Hatchet heads run from about a pound to about 2lbs. Buy an axe that feels good in your hands.
-1bigsteve (o:
"All of your tomorrows begin today. Move it!" -Susan Hayward 1973
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Kat
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I think Abbie had crushing of her *cranium* and pieces were found but I don't know of any *slice...neatly removed.*
To double check stuff like this there are facts located at the website:
http://www.lizzieandrewborden.com/Crime ... Borden.htm
To double check stuff like this there are facts located at the website:
http://www.lizzieandrewborden.com/Crime ... Borden.htm
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Shelley
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I have read somewhere recently in one of the source documents of a slice, or wedge, something like that -honest. Now to find it again. After reading it I remmber thinking it must have been a sharp -edged weapon to do such a thing. It may have been in the description of that grisly bit that was down the cellar in the pile of clothing. I will look tonight.
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1bigsteve
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Kat @ Sat Nov 11, 2006 12:24 am wrote:Did we ever hear the weight of the HH head?
It wouldn't show up until the grand jury and trial.
All hatchet, axe and hammer heads are listed by weight in catalogs. The size of Lizzie's HH head is listed in old catalogs as being about a pound or a little more. I had one same size as Lizzie's and it weighed a little over a pound.
When I buy hammers I look for the type and then the weight. I buy 32oz. framing hammers, which are $40.00 now and getting very rare, and the weight is stamped on the side. Maul hammers have the weight stamped on the underneath side of the head and so do many pick heads but hatchets and axes seldom have their weight stamped on at all.
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bobarth
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Got my axe today, tried out my experiment with a 2 1/2 pound 24 inch axe. It is absolutely no problem to swing an axe 20 times. I also had a friend just a tad smaller, try it and it was no problem for her either. I always thought it would be a lot harder than that to swing an axe. Well, now I know and I still got all my toes. 
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Kat
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I'm not disputing your info, bigsteve, I'm only surprised that I couldn't find a weight of the HH head in the testimonies.
Maybe it is there, but I didn't see it.
You also know the name of the manufacturer?
Shelley, is this what you remember?
Witness Statements
Chase
42
"I also found mixed in with the hair of Mrs. Borden a piece of bone, which from it nature I took to be a piece of Mrs. Borden's skull, it was cut so smooth, that I thought it might be of use in determining what kind of instrument was used, as the bone and hair both had the appearance of being cut with a very sharp instrument; I gave this piece of bone to Dr. Dolan."
--I think this description is sort of what you described, and sort of not quite what I interpreted you to mean. I've thought of this as a rather small piece, but I see what you mean.
Maybe it is there, but I didn't see it.
You also know the name of the manufacturer?
Shelley, is this what you remember?
Witness Statements
Chase
42
"I also found mixed in with the hair of Mrs. Borden a piece of bone, which from it nature I took to be a piece of Mrs. Borden's skull, it was cut so smooth, that I thought it might be of use in determining what kind of instrument was used, as the bone and hair both had the appearance of being cut with a very sharp instrument; I gave this piece of bone to Dr. Dolan."
--I think this description is sort of what you described, and sort of not quite what I interpreted you to mean. I've thought of this as a rather small piece, but I see what you mean.
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Some of the testimony must be read carefully. A four or five pound hatchet is ridiculous! A five pound AXE (not hatchet) is HUGE!
Fasten (very securely) a five pound weight at the end of a twelve to fifteen inch "handle", pick it up and try swinging it with one hand. Most people will find it difficult to pick it up, let alone swing it.
A bit of common sense would end most of the speculation about hatchets, both then and now.
Fasten (very securely) a five pound weight at the end of a twelve to fifteen inch "handle", pick it up and try swinging it with one hand. Most people will find it difficult to pick it up, let alone swing it.
A bit of common sense would end most of the speculation about hatchets, both then and now.
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william
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I've owned a series of hatchets over the course of my entilre life - never saw one that weighed more than a couple of ounces over two pounds.
Definitions are mixed, but the consensus is that hatchets go to three pounds.
The hatchet head at the Fall River Historcal Society shsould provide an indication of the going weight of hatchet heads during this period.
How about asking Martins to chuck it on a scale and giving us a reading?
Definitions are mixed, but the consensus is that hatchets go to three pounds.
The hatchet head at the Fall River Historcal Society shsould provide an indication of the going weight of hatchet heads during this period.
How about asking Martins to chuck it on a scale and giving us a reading?
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Kat @ Sat Nov 11, 2006 11:17 pm wrote:I'm not disputing your info, bigsteve, I'm only surprised that I couldn't find a weight of the HH head in the testimonies.
Maybe it is there, but I didn't see it.
You also know the name of the manufacturer?
Shelley, is this what you remember?
Witness Statements
Chase
42
"I also found mixed in with the hair of Mrs. Borden a piece of bone, which from it nature I took to be a piece of Mrs. Borden's skull, it was cut so smooth, that I thought it might be of use in determining what kind of instrument was used, as the bone and hair both had the appearance of being cut with a very sharp instrument; I gave this piece of bone to Dr. Dolan."
--I think this description is sort of what you described, and sort of not quite what I interpreted you to mean. I've thought of this as a rather small piece, but I see what you mean.
I never saw any mention in the testimonies about the exact weight of Lizzie's hatchet head but other hatchet heads the same size as Lizzies are listed in old catalogs as weighing about a pound or a little over. Two manurfacturing Companies can make hatchets the same size (cutting edge length) but one can be a little heavier or lighter than the other due to the thickness of the blade. So, if you know the cutting edge length of Lizzie's head and compare it to other heads of the same cutting edge length you will get an idea as to how much Lizzie's weighed.
There is a posting somewhere on this forum of an old catalog listing of hatchets from Lizzie's era showing the type of hatchet, cutting edge length and it's weight. Comparing Lizzie's hatchet head size with one of those will give you the weight of Lizzie's head, give or take an once or two. If I remember correctly Lizzie's head had a cutting edge length of 3 1/4" - 3 1/2".
Lizzie's hatchet was made by Underhill.
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1bigsteve
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Yooper @ Sun Nov 12, 2006 5:55 am wrote:Some of the testimony must be read carefully. A four or five pound hatchet is ridiculous! A five pound AXE (not hatchet) is HUGE!
Fasten (very securely) a five pound weight at the end of a twelve to fifteen inch "handle", pick it up and try swinging it with one hand. Most people will find it difficult to pick it up, let alone swing it.
A bit of common sense would end most of the speculation about hatchets, both then and now.
I think 2lbs. is about average for a say, camp type hatchet. A few may go a little heavier but 3 lbs. may be a bit too heavy. I don't think I ever saw a camp type hatchet even close to 3lbs.
I have seen large double-edge tree fellers axes that top out at 5lbs. but these are not the axes you will see in a local hardware store. I recently saw an old one at a swap meet. Most single edged two-handed axes are around 2 1/2-4lbs.
Hatchets: 1-2lbs.
Axes: 2 1/2 - 4lbs.
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1bigsteve
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bobarth @ Sat Nov 11, 2006 6:30 pm wrote:Got my axe today, tried out my experiment with a 2 1/2 pound 24 inch axe. It is absolutely no problem to swing an axe 20 times. I also had a friend just a tad smaller, try it and it was no problem for her either. I always thought it would be a lot harder than that to swing an axe. Well, now I know and I still got all my toes.
Sounds like you are on a roll, Bobbie!
That is a good sized axe to start with. After you get some experience try the bigger axes. You might want to look for a shingling hatchet like Lizzie's at an antique store and experiment with that. It is made for splitting wood shingles, not chopping wood. I got a big one that I love. They don't make that type of shingling hatchet any more but there are a lot of old ones still around. Half-hatchets, which were around in Lizzies day, have taken over the roofing industry.
-1bigsteve (o:
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Harry
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Moody in his opening statement at the trial stated, in part, about the handleless hatchet head (page 85):
"... There is another thing that is unmistakably told by one of the skulls---I think that of Mr. Borden---and that is that the weapon which brought him to his death was just 3-1/2 inches on its blade, no more, no less. That is the exact measurement of the blade of that hatchet. Let there be no mistake, Mr. Foreman and gentlemen, about my meaning. The government does not insist that these homicides were committed by this handleless hatchet. ..."
Below is a catalog sheet for various style hatchets from Hibbard, Spencer, Bartlett & Co. I'm not sure of the year of the catalog but it is fairly contemporary with the crimes. A shingling hatchet head of 3-1/2 inches would weigh 17 ounces, or 1 ounce more than one pound. This does not include the handle.
The shingling hatchet found upon Crowe's roof by the Potter boy had a cutting edge of 3-3/4 inches and a handle of 13-3/4 inches. No weight was mentioned. Per Bob Flynn's "Lizzie Borden and the Mysterious Axe", the Daily News Bulletin, June 15, 1893.
"... There is another thing that is unmistakably told by one of the skulls---I think that of Mr. Borden---and that is that the weapon which brought him to his death was just 3-1/2 inches on its blade, no more, no less. That is the exact measurement of the blade of that hatchet. Let there be no mistake, Mr. Foreman and gentlemen, about my meaning. The government does not insist that these homicides were committed by this handleless hatchet. ..."
Below is a catalog sheet for various style hatchets from Hibbard, Spencer, Bartlett & Co. I'm not sure of the year of the catalog but it is fairly contemporary with the crimes. A shingling hatchet head of 3-1/2 inches would weigh 17 ounces, or 1 ounce more than one pound. This does not include the handle.
The shingling hatchet found upon Crowe's roof by the Potter boy had a cutting edge of 3-3/4 inches and a handle of 13-3/4 inches. No weight was mentioned. Per Bob Flynn's "Lizzie Borden and the Mysterious Axe", the Daily News Bulletin, June 15, 1893.
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bobarth
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1bigsteve: That is a good sized axe to start with. After you get some experience try the bigger axes.
I am fairly sure I am a one axe woman. 
I got enough grief at the checkout counter buying that one.
Yooper: A four or five pound hatchet is ridiculous!
I agree "totally". After reading your post, I got the axe and cruised around the house and it seems like something with that long of handle would be ridiculous to use too. Seems to me that a shorter handed hatchet would be much easier, as it just takes too much room to swing a long handled axe. So glad to have tried it out as I had no sense what so ever about handling or swinging an axe/hatchet.
Oh the things I do on a weekend.
I am fairly sure I am a one axe woman. I got enough grief at the checkout counter buying that one.
Yooper: A four or five pound hatchet is ridiculous!
I agree "totally". After reading your post, I got the axe and cruised around the house and it seems like something with that long of handle would be ridiculous to use too. Seems to me that a shorter handed hatchet would be much easier, as it just takes too much room to swing a long handled axe. So glad to have tried it out as I had no sense what so ever about handling or swinging an axe/hatchet.
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Yooper
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A hatchet handle would weigh in the neighborhood of 1/2 pound. Weights of hatchets and axes are stated with respect to the weight of the head only, excluding the handle. The "expert speculation" of a 4-5 pound hatchet would require a large person to wield it and would not only pass through the entire skull, but likely pillows, couch, etc!
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Shelley
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I tried out the swing angle of an axe at the house while standing at the head of the sofa- a long-handled axe does not have enough swinging room without choking way up on the handle which sacrifices stability and aim (will get some photos of this Friday). This really seems to be the job for a hand tool such as a hatchet.
Yes- that was the passage about Abby's skull remnant I was remembering. When John ordered the Borden's clothing buried, I often thought it was because remains of the deceased were contained in them and this was the decent thing to do as little "body bits" were present, -they should be buried as a corpse would be.
Yes- that was the passage about Abby's skull remnant I was remembering. When John ordered the Borden's clothing buried, I often thought it was because remains of the deceased were contained in them and this was the decent thing to do as little "body bits" were present, -they should be buried as a corpse would be.
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Kat
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Kat @ Mon Nov 13, 2006 2:06 am wrote:Thanks for all the concise info Har!
So no one found the weight of the HH in testimony. Hmmm.
I'm with William- let's ask MM.
I doubt the Court would have been interested in the hatchet heads weight, just the cutting edge length. Like Harry said, Lizzie's was 3 1/2". The one in the catalog (3 1/2") is 17 ounces so Lizzie's was probably about the same weight even though the Manufacturers were not the same. Some shingling hatchets had thinner blades than others. The one I have now has a cutting edge of 4 1/2" and has a thick blade. It's a heavy little monster.
It would be interesting to have Lizzie's weighed and the cutting edge and over-all length measured as well as the diameter of the poll end. I'm guessing her's measures about 5 1/2" in over-all length, from cutting edge to end of poll. Maybe we can twist someone's arm?
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Kat
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I don't know why they wouldn't be interested in the weight- in fact I think they probably knew but didn't elicit it in testimony (if it really is not in testimony).
They were describing these implements they found down to marks on the handles, length, ashes, dust, blade size, sharpness, weight, probable weight of the killing weapon, differences among them, axes vs. hatchets, what wood the handles were made out of, whether hard or not, color, any blood or rust, damp or dry, where found, where now after months etc.
I held the thing and still don't know the weight- I didn't think about it at the time.
I'm not discounting what you guys have theorized as to its weight.
They were describing these implements they found down to marks on the handles, length, ashes, dust, blade size, sharpness, weight, probable weight of the killing weapon, differences among them, axes vs. hatchets, what wood the handles were made out of, whether hard or not, color, any blood or rust, damp or dry, where found, where now after months etc.
I held the thing and still don't know the weight- I didn't think about it at the time.
I'm not discounting what you guys have theorized as to its weight.
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william
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The length of the cutting edge of the hatchet has no relationship to the length of the wound.
The length of the wound would depend upon the depth, force and angle of the blow. Any hatchet can produce wounds of varying length.
Bob Flynn covered this quite well in his treatise, "Lizzie Borden and the Mysterious Axe." It is his belief that the hatchet used in the murders was the hatchet found on the roof of the Crowe barn.
The length of the wound would depend upon the depth, force and angle of the blow. Any hatchet can produce wounds of varying length.
Bob Flynn covered this quite well in his treatise, "Lizzie Borden and the Mysterious Axe." It is his belief that the hatchet used in the murders was the hatchet found on the roof of the Crowe barn.
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Harry
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There are several entries in Rebello (page 105+):william @ Tue Nov 14, 2006 4:44 pm wrote:Would appreciate detailed information re. the man that claimed the hatchet.
Thank you.
"... It was eleven year old Freddie Potter, son of Caleb C. Potter, who found the axe at Crowe's barn while playing ball on Third Street. Two days
after the axe was found, The Fall River Daily Herald, June 17, 1893, reported the axe as belonging to Carl MacDonnell, a carpenter who had been working in the area. He lost an axe similar to the one found at Crowe's barn."
And
"It was McDonnell's Axe / Alibi Established for the Hatchet on Crowe's Barn," Fall River Daily Herald, Saturday, June 17, 1893: 8.
"The owner of the Potter-Borden hatchet has in all probability been found. Carl McDonnell, a carpenter employed by William Smith of Second Street, did some work for Dr. Chagnon about the time of the murder or a little later and lost a hatchet of a description similar to this one.
There are so many hatchets of a similar make that it is almost impossible to identify anyone in particular unless marked for that purpose. The axe undoubtedly belongs to McDonnell."
William R. Smith's shop was at 48 Second St.
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william
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Thank you Harry:
I was familiar with the Rebello citations - just wanted to ascertain if Shakiboo had anythiing new to offer.
The citations are inconsistant, as you have no doubt noted.
The report tells of the loss of an "axe" (sic) by Carl Macdonnell "similar" to the one found at Crowe's barn.
"There are so many hatchets of a similar make, that it is almost impossible to identiffy anyone in particular unless marked for that purpose The axe undoubtedly belongs to MacDonnell."
It doesn't state Macdonnell marked his axe, yet the conclusion is reached that it is his property. Could anything be more confusiing?
It is my personal opinion that the murder weapon has yet to be discovered - and I'm not completely convinced it was a hatchet
I was familiar with the Rebello citations - just wanted to ascertain if Shakiboo had anythiing new to offer.
The citations are inconsistant, as you have no doubt noted.
The report tells of the loss of an "axe" (sic) by Carl Macdonnell "similar" to the one found at Crowe's barn.
"There are so many hatchets of a similar make, that it is almost impossible to identiffy anyone in particular unless marked for that purpose The axe undoubtedly belongs to MacDonnell."
It doesn't state Macdonnell marked his axe, yet the conclusion is reached that it is his property. Could anything be more confusiing?
It is my personal opinion that the murder weapon has yet to be discovered - and I'm not completely convinced it was a hatchet
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RayS
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Does this mean you are leaning toward Arnold Brown's theory?william @ Wed Nov 15, 2006 1:01 pm wrote: ...
It is my personal opinion that the murder weapon has yet to be discovered - ...
Quite a change, if you are who I think you are (a retired professor).
It was Farmer William in the Bedroom with the Hatchet.
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Yooper
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I agree with William, given the lack of hard evidence and the supression of testimony, they reached the only possible conclusion. This is the same reason no one else was ever charged with the murders. Lizzie was charged with the murders circumstantially. She seemed to have motive and opportunity, but lacked the means without a murder weapon.
The law seems to provide for only a mutually exclusive conclusion, either "guilty" or "not guilty", with "not guilty" being the same as "innocent". The lack of a murder weapon introduced a reasonable doubt which the jury could hang its hat on.
Realistically, there is a difference between doubting (not guilty) and irrefutable proof (innocent), however, the law does not recognize it. The disparity exists due to the presumption of innocence. The charged person does not have to prove that they didn't do it, although if they are able, they generally do prove it.
Lizzie having been ostracized after the trial seems ample proof of the difference between "not guilty" and "innocent".
The law seems to provide for only a mutually exclusive conclusion, either "guilty" or "not guilty", with "not guilty" being the same as "innocent". The lack of a murder weapon introduced a reasonable doubt which the jury could hang its hat on.
Realistically, there is a difference between doubting (not guilty) and irrefutable proof (innocent), however, the law does not recognize it. The disparity exists due to the presumption of innocence. The charged person does not have to prove that they didn't do it, although if they are able, they generally do prove it.
Lizzie having been ostracized after the trial seems ample proof of the difference between "not guilty" and "innocent".
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Kat
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I still don't understand the "innocent" explanation. Under the law there is no verdict of "innocent" so it doesn't enter into the matter at hand at all.
Even the Scotch verdict of "Not Proven" doesn't have room for an "innocent."
There is not even an acceptable plea of "innocent." I think that tends to confuse people when it's even brought up.
Even the Scotch verdict of "Not Proven" doesn't have room for an "innocent."
There is not even an acceptable plea of "innocent." I think that tends to confuse people when it's even brought up.
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Yooper
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Kat
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I couched my phrasing the way I did because you have actually said this about 3 different times, if not more, and each time I question it because I don't think it's sensible, and I do think it confuses the issue.
Obviously I have not changed your mind.
I'm usually more convincing, I think.
--YooperThe law seems to provide for only a mutually exclusive conclusion, either "guilty" or "not guilty", with "not guilty" being the same as "innocent".
Obviously I have not changed your mind.
I'm usually more convincing, I think.
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Yooper
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The phrasing tends to sound a bit like an attempt at censorship, but it may not have been intended as such.
To avoid confusion, my contention is that one can be guilty as sin of a crime, but, due to a legal technicality, get off with a not guilty verdict. That is not the same as being innocent of the crime. Under the law, there is no provision for a difference between the two. "Not guilty" can mean a number of things, while "innocent" is unique.
Another way to look at the terms is as non-commutative. If you are "innocent" you are certainly "not guilty", but if you are "not guilty" you are not necessarily "innocent".
There is no legalistic distinction made between the two terms, but there is a moral distinction. That was the reason for Lizzie being ostracized in Fall River after the trial. The message seemed to be: "You may be 'not guilty' according to the law, but nobody thinks you're 'innocent'".
To avoid confusion, my contention is that one can be guilty as sin of a crime, but, due to a legal technicality, get off with a not guilty verdict. That is not the same as being innocent of the crime. Under the law, there is no provision for a difference between the two. "Not guilty" can mean a number of things, while "innocent" is unique.
Another way to look at the terms is as non-commutative. If you are "innocent" you are certainly "not guilty", but if you are "not guilty" you are not necessarily "innocent".
There is no legalistic distinction made between the two terms, but there is a moral distinction. That was the reason for Lizzie being ostracized in Fall River after the trial. The message seemed to be: "You may be 'not guilty' according to the law, but nobody thinks you're 'innocent'".
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Yooper
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