What Drew You to The Titanic?

[1bigsteve]

There are a lot of us here who are interested in the Titanic. I was wonder how you discovered the Titanic and what about it pulled you in?

I first heard about the ship in a book on ice. It was the facts that it sank on it's maiden voyage and that all those people needlessly drowned due to man's arrogance that sparked my interest.

-1bigsteve (o:

[terrie]

I am a Titanic follower. There is so much there! Social conventions, human miscalculations, what if's, tragedy, unbelieveable human bravery, and, I think, the end of an era. The Titanic changed so much about how we see the world...one of those events that sears itself into your mind.

If anyone has a chance, I highly recommned the travelling Titanic exhibition.

I so wish I was closer to Florida to go to their permanent Titanic exhibit!

[Tina-Kate]

For me just one of those "have always knowns". Being from British parents who were/are history, mystery & true crime buffs is probably why.

Recently saw another Canadian show with a woman talking about how her great grandmother & family had steerage passages. Grandma had a premonition & kept her hubby up all night until he agreed they should not go after all.

Good job, if this is a true story. I've heard these "almost got on Titanic" stories several times before.

Oh, BTW...I "almost" got into the Titanic exhibit. It was on in Toronto during a particularly bad winter several years ago. I went down for it only to find they'd closed it early & had left a few days before I got there!

[terrie]

Awww pooh Tina Kate! I am sorry that happened!

I have been twice to the exhibition (both times in Ohio; I live in Kentucky). They give out boarding passes, and you can find out at the end if your person survived. The first time I went, I took my niece and she got a third class person and I got a first. She tried to trade me! And when I wouldn't trade, she went back to the check in and complained...and got a first class ticket!

Of all the items in the exhibition, the one I remember most is the wall of ice they have that reproduces the temperature that night....you can touch it. It is so frigid that it burns, if that makes sense. What an awful night that must have been.

[Shelley]

I saw a large color lithograph of the ship sinking (a popular print which came out well into the 1920's) when I was about 6 years old- and was fascinated by it. There's something about seeing a big ship in the middle of the ocean, cut off from the world, going down. Mezmerizing and horrifying. When I was in my late 20's I read A Night to Remember and met Walter Lord at a Titanic convention. We corresponded over the years. Then I studied painting with survivor Marshall Drew who lived in nearby Westerly, Rhode Island and was 8 years old aboard the ship. About 6 Titanic friends and I began Titanic International back in 1988 and I have had many adventures over the years, working for the artifact recovery team, going to the wrecksite, and organizing conventions. Currently I have my own site at www.revdma2.com and manage the blog and website for the society at www.titanicinternationalsociety.org where I am archivist and a moderator at the Rolls Royce of Titanic sources site www.encyclopedia-titanica.org
My husband finally built me a Titanic Room where I can display all of my ship collection. I let him have the ceiling to display his WWII airplanes and my zeppelins and blimps (another obsession of mine).

[Tina-Kate]

Has anyone heard the Titanic doggerel (not unlike Lizzie Borden Took an Axe)?

I haven't heard it since childhood, but I remember it.

I'd particularly be interested to know if it made the rounds in the US or if it was a strictly British/Canadian thing.

Warning: like most doggerel, this is highly disrespectful!

They made the ship Titanic
to sail the ocean blue
They thought it was a ship
that the water wouldn't go thru
But the good Lord raised His hand
said, "This ship will never land"
It was sad when the great ship went down

O it was sad, so sad
It was sad, so sad,
It was sad when the great ship went down
to the bottom of the sea...
Husbands and wives and children lost their lives!
It was sad when the great ship went down

Kerplunk!
It sunk!
What a lousy piece of junk!
The end. Amen.
Gurgle, gurgle, gurgle...plop!

[Shelley]

Oh yes, that is an old campfire, scout song. It has many verses. I collect Titanic sheet music, and there is another piece called Just as the Ship Went Down.-I understand there are over 113 Titanic "songs". Sissy Spacek sings one to her babies in Coalminer's Daughter.

[Shelley]

Here is one old folksong, midi file and lyrics:

http://www.encyclopedia-titanica.org/le ... tanic.html

And here is the one you refer to above, sing along!
http://www.encyclopedia-titanica.org/titanic_folk.html

[Shelley]

This link will take you to some of the popular "sinking" genre sheet music which flooded the market after the disaster. The sheet music may also be downloaded. I play My Sweetheart Went Down with the Ship and The Band Played Nearer My God to Thee often on my piano. Growing up, my children used to say- "Aw Ma, don't you know any happy song?"

http://www.encyclopedia-titanica.org/theme/Songs/

[Tina-Kate]

Thanks Shelley!

Here at the church we have a drama group (my mother founded it in 1969---altho I no longer participate). Upstairs where they rehearse, we still have a lifesaver with Carpathia printed on it. A few years ago, the group put on the Titanic musical. I didn't see it & can't imagine how it could possibly have been made into a musical.

I gather you have music from that---I'm sure it must have been on Broadway or somewhere as well.

[Shelley]

Oh yes! The musical was wonderful, as was the recent Lizzie Borden musical- hard to believe with the subject matter. The Titanic musical book can be had for 25 dollars at Amazon, or a CD recording.
http://www.lyricsondemand.com/soundtrac ... callyrics/

[terrie]

I want to be Shelley when I grow up!!!

Shelley, I had no idea! You corresponded wiht Walter Lord ( a hero of mine) and work with the big Titanic website...ooohhhhhh wow! Lauren (my niece) and I are both big Titanic followers! I wish I had thought to mention Titanic when we met!

[doug65oh]

Shelley's done some wonderful work over there. One of my favorite things in the bunch was the article she wrote about ...errr...what was her name, Asplund I think it was? The last American survivor of the sinking I mean. If I remember correctly, she was the only one of the very few who remain who had living memories of the event. (I'll have to hop over there and hunt that article up again.)

On the drawn to end of things, I suppose the first thing I encountered that drew me to Titanic's saga was a small book of the young adult ilk - I have no idea which book it was, this is too many years ago - but that was the start. I remember writing letters to a Titanic organization (in Springfield, Mass., maybe) and receiving some very nice brochures and catalogues.

The scenes that did it for me have been portrayed and written about many times: Fred Fleet caling from the crow's nest: Ice berg, right ahead!

It gets a little deep here but I thought to myself, What must he have felt at that moment? There's that beast of the great north looming ever closer with each passing second. He sees it, yet likely knows that beyond the report, there's nothing he can do but hope, and make ready for whatever comes.

The other is the "near mutiny" alleged to have taken place in Boat 6, during which Mrs. J. J. Brown and Quartermaster Hitchens had a few...strong words, you might say. I've always wondered if that part of the story is really true.

[Shelley]

Thanks Doug and Terrie. Yes, Miss Asplund was the very last with any memories of Titanic. The last two remaining ladies were mere infants, Milvina Dean and Barbara Dainto West. The story on Miss Asplund is here http://encyclopedia-titanica.org/asplund.html I feel very lucky to have known her.
Titanic has been my primary leisure time obsession over the past 30 years and, like the Lizzie interest, has sent many fascinating people my way. I am currently the archivist for Titanic International Society ; the other society in Massachusetts is Titanic Historical Society, for which I also worked for many years. I maintain a website and blog for TIS. At last count there were over 20 fairly new Titanic societies around the world.

I have often wondered what Lizzie thought about the sinking of the Titanic in 1912- everyone was much-affected by that event. There was a Fall River connection to the Lusitania in the person of Mary Higginbottom who died in the sinking. Her body was not recovered. This is from the Lusitania Resource, a site to which I enjoy contributing http://web.rmslusitania.info:81/pages/s ... _mary.html

[Allen]

Well I'm checking in kind of late but what drew me first to the Titanic was learning about the sinking of the ship in school. I was so caught up in the story I went to the library for a loan of A Night to Remember. The book definitely sparked my interest to want to learn as much as I could about this tragedy. Now I have my own little extensive library on the subject, containing books, dvds, and vhs. For me I don't think I could ever learn enough. There is so much history tied into that one single event.

[Kat]

I heard on the news this week that the permanent Titanic display here in Orlando area is moving out. I think they lost their lease or something.
As they were actually moving out, they got word they could keep going until the day after Labor Day and then they were kaput.

I'm not sure how to look this up.

I first knew about the Titanic from the old black and white movie, "A Night To Remember." Not sure when that came out but this family was interested in it early on.
I have not seen the new movie.

[Shelley]

The article about the Ship of Dreams exhibit in Florida can be found on the blog I write for Titanic International Society. It is in the old Mercado shopping center and has been very popular. There is also a link to the news coverage about the move.
http://titanicinternational.wordpress.com/

[doug65oh]

Okay, Shelley - you win. I bookmarked the blog.

[Shelley]

Oh, once I got into trouble quoting a whole newspaper article-so I ALWAYS blog the link and refer people to that! Besides- we are always happy for traffic on the site for TIS!

[doug65oh]

Been there, did that. Only once, but....

Besideswhich, itwas nice to read that Milvina Dean is still in good health despite infirmities.

[Nadzieja]

This is really really amazing to me. I have been as stuck to the Titanic story as I have been Lizzie's. However Lizzie got me hooked last year & Titanic, I can't remember it goes back so far. The first memory of it was when the nuns in Catholic school told us not to get cocky because God will put us in our place. Look what happened to the Titanic. With that statement came such a curiousity. I saw the traveling exhibit in Boston, it was right after they pulled up that big piece of the ship & it was on display. It was being sprayed with water so it wouldn't dry all the way I guess because it would fall apart. I bought the book (among other things) they were selling about the show. I can look at those things for hours. I can't believe that so many Lizzie fans are also into Titanic. Shelley I didn't know there was a Titanic Historical Society in Ma, can you let me know where and if this is a place I can visit?

[Shelley]

It is in Indian Orchard, near Springfield in Henry's Jewelry Store.

http://www.titanic1.org/museum/index.asp

I parted company from these people in 1989 and began Titanic International (a long story)- but they have some nice things. Most of their really good stuff is at the new Branson, MO. attraction. Personally I think making a museum into the shape of a sunken ship is a bit much, but there are some great exhibits inside if you can get around the kitcsh factor http://www.titanicbranson.com/

[Shelley]

THS also puts out a very nice color quarterly called The Commutator. TIS publication is called Voyage.

Yes, I have never met a Titanic buff who did not love Lizzie too. History I guess. I even wrote an article comparing Lizzie to Titanic for Voyage!

[doug65oh]

That's the very place I remember getting the mail from, Indian Orchard. It appears they still stock some of the things I went nuts over nearly thirty years ago - the survivor interview recordings.

[Kat]

The article about the Ship of Dreams exhibit in Florida can be found on the blog I write for Titanic International Society. It is in the old Mercado shopping center and has been very popular. There is also a link to the news coverage about the move.
http://titanicinternational.wordpress.com/

Thank you Shell for finding that info for us.

[1bigsteve]

This link will take you to some of the popular "sinking" genre sheet music which flooded the market after the disaster. The sheet music may also be downloaded. I play My Sweetheart Went Down with the Ship and The Band Played Nearer My God to Thee often on my piano. Growing up, my children used to say- "Aw Ma, don't you know any happy song?"

http://www.encyclopedia-titanica.org/theme/Songs/

Although the writer claims the lyrics are just a hodge-podge of words without any meaning, there are a lot of people who believe that the lyrics to the song "A Whiter Shade of Pale" are based on the sinking of the Titanic. Here are the lyrics. See what you make of them:

We skipped the light fandango
turned cartwheels 'cross the floor
(some kind of dance like the one in the new Titanic movie)
I was feeling kinda seasick
but the crowd called out for more
The room was humming harder
as the ceiling flew away
When we called out for another drink
the waiter brought a tray
(obviousely they were drinking and had a massive buzz on)

And so it was that later
as the Miller told his tale
that her face, at first just ghostly,
turned a whiter shade of pale
(a Miller is the name of a person who mills or planes lumber. He
is sometimes called a carpenter. In the movie the captain ask's
that the "carpenter sound the ship." When the carpenter gives
the report that the ship is sinking, her face turns a whiter shade of pale
from the shock. Some people believe the Miller was someone in The Canterbury Tales
who told a dirty story, causing the girl's face color to change.)

She said there is no reason
and the truth is plain to see
But I wandered through my playing cards
and would not let her be
one of sixteen vestal virgins
who were leaving for the coast
and although my eyes were open
they might just as well've been closed
(I have no idea what all that means)

And so it was that later
as the Miller told his tale
that her face, at first just ghostly,
turned a whiter shade of pale

She said, 'I'm home on shore leave,'
though in truth we were at sea
so I took her by the looking glass
and forced her to agree
saying, 'You must be the mermaid
who took Neptune for a ride.'
But she smiled at me so sadly
that my anger straightway died
If music be the food of love
then laughter is it's queen
and likewise if behind is in front
then dirt in truth is clean
My mouth by then like cardboard
seemed to slip straight through my head
So we crash-dived straightway quickly
and attacked the ocean bed
(I can't tell if they "hit the sac" or sank to
the ocean floor. My mouth has felt like cotton but
never cardboard.)

The writer may have been right when he said the lyrics don't mean anything. The case for the sinking of the Titanic, or any other ship is
rather thin although there is plenty of talk about the sea. It came out during 1967 so it may have been a "drug trip." So you may need to be on a drug trip to understand it. I don't know, what do you think?

-1bigsteve (o:

[Kat]

Thanks!
I think the last part of what you said is probably the real answer.
Good try tho, really!

[1bigsteve]

I think it was a drug trip too. The only thing about this song that came from real events, as far as I know, is the name. The writer over heard a guy tell his girl friend that her face turned "a whiter shade of pale." It's a shame that such a beautiful song has to have such a hodge podge set of lyrics. Hmmm... maybe I should work on these?

-1bigsteve (o:

[doug65oh]

The Miller's Tale is...well, it's a rough read if you're not familiar with (or rusty at) Middle English a`la Chaucer, but it is fairly - explicit, you might say.

Both the Prologue and The Miller's Tale can be found at http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/collectio ... rowse.html

[1bigsteve]

Thanks for the link, Doug. I couldn't make out that style of spelling but I saw enough. Brooker may have been referring to this "Miller's Tales" or he could have been talking about something else. Of course he may have had a blow-fly up his nose when he wrote those lyrics. Hard to say but fun to think about. The song was based on Bach's "Air On A G String." When you listen to that piece you see where he got the flavor for "A Whiter Shade of Pale." The song does have a nautical theme running through it.

-1bigsteve (o:

[doug65oh]

If you think that's hard to read Steve, you should try pronouncing it correctly! I managed to memorize ...oh a fair bit of the General Prolgue to The Canterbury Tales years ago in school as part of a recitation project. It was...interesting, to say the least - took nearly a week to get the tongue untied outta the danged square-knot afterwards!! A few years later I had a professor in college who was actually fluent in Middle English. He astounded all of us one day early on by reciting the opening paragraphs of President Kennedy's inaugural address in Middle English. The weird part was that listening - he was good enough that it was possible to catch and follow exactly what he was saying - especially if you knew even a little of the opening parts of the speech. That's the only time I've ever seen that done. It was great!

A Whiter Shade of Pale is a favorite of mine now that you mention it though. I'll have to listen to it again more closely.

[1bigsteve]

Of all the versions I've heard so far I like Sarah Brightman's "A Whiter Shade of Pale" the best. She and that orchestra really get on it. Most full orchestras love to water-down a song, play it sedate, but not that one. I love the sound of Procol's Hammond organ but they don't put much power into their version. In my head I can hear how I would like that song played. If only Sarah's version had used an organ they could have sent that song to heaven. She had the right drummer. Too bad they couldn't have put it into the Titanic movie sound track. I'd love to tinker with those lyrics to give them some meaning.

Some people have talent for language. I knew a guy who spoke 7 different ancient languages. I remember Kennedy's speech. He hold's or held the world's record for the most words spoken in the shortest time. Or something like that. Did Kennedy ever say anything about the Titanic? He had his own problems with ships.

-1bigsteve (o:

[doug65oh]

Not that I ever knew or heard of he didn't Steve. The only comment that even comes close would be the "...it was involuntary; they sank my boat" comment about the 109. But in a way that makes sense because none of the Kennedy children were born until after the sinking of the Lusitania if I remember correctly. She went down 7th of May 1915, and the eldest Kennedy son was born the 25th of July.

Their parents undoubtedly knew of and remembered it though.

[Kat]

I thought our JFK first injured his back on the PT109- as his *problem with ships.*
He suffered the rest of his life?

[doug65oh]

Well, that's oneof the stories, and goodness knows it makes sense. But I've also heard - the source for this might be Bob Dallek's fairly new book, I'm not sure but he's the one got to see the whole of the President's medical history a few years back - that initially Jack had taken an Army physical and flunked. Some interval went by (not really long) then he took the Navy physical and passed.

The interesting part of that is that his first postings were desk duties stateside - places like Mayport, Jacksonville, that naval station in South Carolina whose name escapes me at the moment. I wouldn't be at all surprised if the nature of those postings and duties had something to do with a pre-existing physical condition. You may have heard of the old joke circulated in the family - the source for this one is Bob Kennedy - that if a mosquito bit Jack Kennedy, the mosquito would die.

He had tons of health problems starting from childhood - stuff like scarlet fever, asthma, etc.

As I recall - it's hard to keep all this stuff real straight - Jack didn't actually get cleared for sea duty until after Ambassador Kennedy made a few phone calls.

I'll have to see if I can ferret that out for sure, but I'm almost certain that the back injury he suffered during the ramming only aggravated a pre-existing condition. There was at least one orthopaedic issue too - which I happen to have myself, but I think it's on the opposite side in my case: One of President Kennedy's legs was shorter than the other. Nobody ever noticed it though - in later years anyway - because one of his shoes had a lift in it. I forget whose gap was bigger, mine or his.

I've gotta get out there one day and go to Battleship Cove, take a tour of PT 796. She's a Higgins class, slightly shorter and narrower than the 109 was - PT-109 was an 80' Elco class boat built by the Electric Boat Company at Bayonne, NJ - but stood in for the 109 during the inaugural parade. (A little overpainting here and there and poof!)

It's funny, I've seen clips of that parade many times and never had a clue until fairly recently that the PT-109 "float" could actually float!

[1bigsteve]

President Kennedy did have a lot of health problems before and after the Destroyer. He was bed ridden for a time after he married Jackie. They were not even sure if he would live. He had problems. His dad did have a way of making miracles happen with just a phone call or two. When you got money...

People who have suffered a back inury or a broken hip often develop a "short leg" problem. One of my late friends broke her hip in childhood that never healed properly and even with a 1/4" lift in one shoe her gait was not as "lady like" as it would have been. Some said it was a "bull dog" walk but it wasn't near that bad, in fact you don't really notice it unless you look for it. I don't remember President Kennedy walking funny but his shoulders and neck seemed a little odd. Probably from his back problems. His shoulders seemed a little too square and stiff.

Kennedy's problems with boats reminds me of the incident with Titanic's sister ship Britanic when that life boat full of people got sucked into her propeller. That must have been a horrible thing to go through, knowing you are going to die and there is nothing you can do about it.

-1bigsteve (o:

[doug65oh]

Oh yeah...money and connections do wonders - that's for sure!
The surgigal episode you're referring to if I remember correctly happened in '54, within 18 months of his entering the senate and marrying. If I remember correctly the '54 surgery was actually done in the same site as a prior surgery (ca. 1944). The earlier surgery didn't work, didn't correct the problem well enough, something like that. The 1954 surgery was the one that was written up in an AMA journal article in 1955 titled "Management of Adreno-cortical Insufficiency During Surgery." The procedure was done in New York, the patient described as "a 37-year-old male." According to the AMA, that procedure marked the first time a patient known to be suffering Addison's Disease had ever survived any type of traumatic surgery. (Somebody from the Gannett News Service actually identified the patient - correctly - in a 1961 newspaper article. Nobody paid any attention!)

The "stiff set" to the neck and shoulders that you remember would have resulted in part from the back brace and girdle the President wore. I'll have to see what I can dig up about the short leg - I know I read it somewhere. Aha! It was the left foot.

Dr. Travell had a workbench in her office and made lifts for both patients and family members. “One of the first things I did for him [Kennedy] was to institute a heel lift—a correction for the difference in leg length which on the outside of the shoe was approximately five-sixteenths to three-eighths of an inch—slightly over a quarter of an inch. Later on, we built this up a little more…. by a small felt lift on the inside of the shoe which probably added an eighth of an inch or three-sixteenths of an inch more correction."
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articl ... tid=152826

The sound of that, the condition was the result of the 1954 surgical procedure. Dr. Janet G. Travell - later the President's personal physician - was a pain management specialist. She began treating President Kennedy in 1955.

[1bigsteve]

Thanks for the info, Doug. It's strange that I know more about President Kennedy's death than I know about his life and health problems - and I've got a ton of books about his life! I should start reading them.

-1bigsteve (o:

[doug65oh]

Oh I know what you mean, Steve – exactly. Prior to the time I started studying the assassination (armed with the only thing I could get at that time, a ratty paperback of the 1964 report) I knew very little about President Kennedy other than what I’d been able to gather from a few “young adult” books and the occasional documentary that popped up now and then on television in the middle ‘70s.

If you can get hold of it (or you might have it) Bob Dallek’s book is one of the best partly because he if I remember correctly was the first author given full access to the President’s medical history.

Of the earlier books one of the best (I think, anyway) would be Johnny, We Hardly Knew Ye! written by Dave Powers and Kenny O’Donnell. I haven’t read it in years – the paperback I had fell apart page by page – but remember it as being very good.

[I had to add this "edit" here: I just phoned the Kennedy Library bookstore to order myself a new hardcover of Johnny, We Hardly Knew Ye!. The gal I spoke to who took care of the order said, "You know, it's my pleasure to sell you a copy of this book because I worked for Dave for many years here. He was a wonderful man."

She was right, I don't doubt that a bit. Of all the "inner circle" I ever saw interviewed, Dave Powers was my favorite - not merely for the stories he'd tell, but the way he told them.]

Okay, let’s try to get this back on track here!:lol: Anybody ever read the transcripts of the Senate inquiry into the Titanic sinking, or the Wreck Commissioner’s Court testimony? If not, you might want to. They’re at http://www.titanicinquiry.org/ and are (to say the least) fascinating!

[Kat]

That established Titanic exhibit here locally did move out on Tuesday after Labor Day and TODAY they pulled the building down! That was fast!!!

http://www.wesh.com/news/14040489/detail.html

[doug65oh]

Sounds like somebody has some "fast track" plans for the site then, eh?

[Kat]

Aye-Yup!
As you say...

Oh they are just glowing getting that "Prime" property!