Debunking the Myths
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Debunking the Myths
It would be fun if we dedicated a thread to 'debunking the myths' that are repeated over and over by people online, in books and movies. And, using the philosophy of Bobo, see if we can keep on topic here. Sources recommended, but not mandatory.
1. Lizzie : Lizzie's name was "Lizzie Andrew Borden". It was not "Elizabeth". And it was not "Lizzy".
2. Andrew Borden was 69: Andrew Borden was not 70 years old when he died. He was 69. He would have turned 70 the month after the murder.
1. Lizzie : Lizzie's name was "Lizzie Andrew Borden". It was not "Elizabeth". And it was not "Lizzy".
2. Andrew Borden was 69: Andrew Borden was not 70 years old when he died. He was 69. He would have turned 70 the month after the murder.
- irina
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Re: Debunking the Myths
It bothers me that Lizzie is considered to be a definite klepto. The first suggestion of her shoplifting seems to be from gossip printed in newspapers. The later Tilden Thurber affair sounds doubtful. We have discussed these things here but since she was never convicted or formally charged she is not necessarily a klepto.
I see no information anywhere to support that Lizzie had any form of epilepsy, convulsions or diagnosable mental disease. (As an expert through personal suffering, on the subject of migraine, I don't even think she had migraine.)
Again it is largely based on gossip that Lizzie actually burglarized the family home at 92 Second and that she subsequently gave away horse car tickets which were used and thus she was identified. Again while we discuss these things I believe it is far from proven that she did any of the above.
It is one thing to discuss slippery subjects for the purpose of learning more or making sense of a subject, and another to make statements like "klepto", "epileptic", "thief".
I see no information anywhere to support that Lizzie had any form of epilepsy, convulsions or diagnosable mental disease. (As an expert through personal suffering, on the subject of migraine, I don't even think she had migraine.)
Again it is largely based on gossip that Lizzie actually burglarized the family home at 92 Second and that she subsequently gave away horse car tickets which were used and thus she was identified. Again while we discuss these things I believe it is far from proven that she did any of the above.
It is one thing to discuss slippery subjects for the purpose of learning more or making sense of a subject, and another to make statements like "klepto", "epileptic", "thief".
Is all we see or seem but a dream within a dream. ~Edgar Allan Poe
- Curryong
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Re: Debunking the Myths
What a good idea! I think that one of the myths that has become imbedded in the Borden story over the years is 'Andrew Borden, stony-hearted skinflint.' Yes, Andrew as a self-made man did know the value of a dollar, he was certainly capable of small meannesses and yes, he did keep his womenfolk on very small allowances. However, the whole picture is more complex than that.
Andrew, as we know, bought the half-share of the Whitehead property, for Abby's sake. This purchase meant that Mrs Whitehead wasn't going to have to sell her half of her home. When his daughters objected to this deal Andrew went to great pains to conciliate them by 'selling' them property of equivalent value. Emma and Lizzie had shares their father had gifted them. There was the extraordinary gesture of paying for a cruise to Europe for Lizzie. There is no evidence, either, that Andrew didn't love his wife and daughters.
At the time following the murders many rumours were flying around about Andrew's supposed miserliness, including that he didn't allow the family sufficient food. As we know from testimony some of the food wasn't the freshest or most appetising, (Abby's cream buns included) and we've laughed about the fried Johnny cakes and mutton broth. Nevertheless, there is no evidence that the family were kept short in the victuals department. If they were you'd wonder where Abby was getting a secret supply from!
Andrew, as we know, bought the half-share of the Whitehead property, for Abby's sake. This purchase meant that Mrs Whitehead wasn't going to have to sell her half of her home. When his daughters objected to this deal Andrew went to great pains to conciliate them by 'selling' them property of equivalent value. Emma and Lizzie had shares their father had gifted them. There was the extraordinary gesture of paying for a cruise to Europe for Lizzie. There is no evidence, either, that Andrew didn't love his wife and daughters.
At the time following the murders many rumours were flying around about Andrew's supposed miserliness, including that he didn't allow the family sufficient food. As we know from testimony some of the food wasn't the freshest or most appetising, (Abby's cream buns included) and we've laughed about the fried Johnny cakes and mutton broth. Nevertheless, there is no evidence that the family were kept short in the victuals department. If they were you'd wonder where Abby was getting a secret supply from!
- Curryong
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Re: Debunking the Myths
I hope I'm not going off topic in replying to irina about Lizzie being a possible shoplifter. This is from Rebello, Page 304-305.
'Lizzie was a chronic shop-lifter. Several years ago after the trial, she was caught shoplifting in Providence (Rhode Island.) My grandfather (Andrew Jennings) got her off, then came home and said 'I will have nothing to do with that woman'.
Mr Edward Jennings, grandson of Andrew Jennings, Brockton Sunday Advertiser, September 13th 1992.
(Perhaps more of this will come to light in the coming years as the FRHS publish more of the Jennings papers.)
Rebello again Page 304-305.
The Borden Affair (Officials and Others still Interested Still Uncommunicative/ Publication of the Facts has Caused a Sensation. Providence Journal) February 17, 1897: 2.
Fall River Officers Knew of It: Now that the facts have come to light, it was stated on good authority last evening that the captain of the police officers of Fall River were not ignorant of the warrant issued for Miss Borden's arrest. It was inspected by them some days ago and they were aware that an attempt was being made to trace the pictures to Miss Borden's house. But inasmuch as the warrant was not served at the time, they were pledged to keep the matter secret.'
Rebello. Same Page under Note.
Edmund Pearson wrote "It is possible that some of her loyal friends were seriously disturbed by this happening. The matter was adjusted out of court, and the warrant was never served." (Letter from Tilden Thurber Co., 1924, Trial of Lizzie Borden, New York: Doubleday, Doran & Company Inc., 1937, 79.)
Surely if the Tilden Thurbef matter was an error Lizzie would have been absolutely horrified and Jennings would have been issuing denials and threats to sue in every newspaper that had printed such a libel. Even if they tried to be discreet they surely would have asked Tilden Thurber to have issued a statement repudiating that any such incident took place. The fact that they didn't shows that something similar to what was reported had indeed happened.
'Lizzie was a chronic shop-lifter. Several years ago after the trial, she was caught shoplifting in Providence (Rhode Island.) My grandfather (Andrew Jennings) got her off, then came home and said 'I will have nothing to do with that woman'.
Mr Edward Jennings, grandson of Andrew Jennings, Brockton Sunday Advertiser, September 13th 1992.
(Perhaps more of this will come to light in the coming years as the FRHS publish more of the Jennings papers.)
Rebello again Page 304-305.
The Borden Affair (Officials and Others still Interested Still Uncommunicative/ Publication of the Facts has Caused a Sensation. Providence Journal) February 17, 1897: 2.
Fall River Officers Knew of It: Now that the facts have come to light, it was stated on good authority last evening that the captain of the police officers of Fall River were not ignorant of the warrant issued for Miss Borden's arrest. It was inspected by them some days ago and they were aware that an attempt was being made to trace the pictures to Miss Borden's house. But inasmuch as the warrant was not served at the time, they were pledged to keep the matter secret.'
Rebello. Same Page under Note.
Edmund Pearson wrote "It is possible that some of her loyal friends were seriously disturbed by this happening. The matter was adjusted out of court, and the warrant was never served." (Letter from Tilden Thurber Co., 1924, Trial of Lizzie Borden, New York: Doubleday, Doran & Company Inc., 1937, 79.)
Surely if the Tilden Thurbef matter was an error Lizzie would have been absolutely horrified and Jennings would have been issuing denials and threats to sue in every newspaper that had printed such a libel. Even if they tried to be discreet they surely would have asked Tilden Thurber to have issued a statement repudiating that any such incident took place. The fact that they didn't shows that something similar to what was reported had indeed happened.
- twinsrwe
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Re: Debunking the Myths
How about the temperature statements from authors that it was scorching/stifling/sweltering/suffocating hot on the morning of Thursday, August 4, 1892.
There were several witnesses who testified about the heat on August 4th, 1892. All of the following testimonies are in reference to the heat in the barn loft, except for the testimony of Rufus B. Hilliard:
Trial testimony of Assistant City Marshal John Fleet page 482:
Q. How was the temperature in the barn in the afternoon? How was it up there in the afternoon?
A. Very hot.
Q. What sort of day was it in Fall River that day with respect to heat?
A. It was very hot, one of the hottest days, I think, we had had.
_______
Trial testimony of Philip Harrington 570:
Q. What was the temperature in that loft of the barn?
A. As to degrees, I cannot say, but it was extremely hot.
Officer Phillip Harrington 571:
Q. In addition to heat I will ask you the direct question, --- was it what was called close?
A. Yes, sir, suffocating, you might say.
_______
Trial testimony of Officer Patrick Doherty page 600:
Q. I will ask you what the temperature was up in the loft of the barn?
A. It was very warm.
Q. How was the air for breathing?
A. Very bad. It was stifling hot there. Very bad.
_______
Trial testimony of Officer William H. Medley page 692:
Q. Wait a moment now. Did you notice what the temperature was in the loft of the barn as you went up there?
A. Well, I know it was hot, that is all, very hot. You know it was a hot day.
_______
Trial testimony of The City Marshal of Fall River Rufus B. Hilliard page 1112:
Q. What sort of day was it with reference to the heat on the 4th of August last?
A. Very hot.
Q. How was the heat in this loft?
A. Well it was extremely warm there, almost suffocating --- the heat in the loft.
_______
However, Rebello states on page 61 (Red highlighting is mine):
Weather Reports:
Weather report, Tuesday evening, August 2, 1892. For RI, MA & CT Showers followed by clearing weather, cooler in the interior, easterly winds, shifting north. Fall River Daily Globe
Weather report until Tuesday night, August 2, 1892. Cloudy and unsettled, slightly warmer, variable winds, generally easterly to southerly, Wednesday , fair and cooler. Fall River Daily Herald.
Weather report for Wednesday evening, August 3, 1892. For New England, fair, preceded today by showers on the coast, slightly warmer, southeasterly winds. Fall River Daily Globe.
Weather report for Wednesday night, August 3, 1892. Con't cloudy, cool weather, easterly winds becoming variable. Herald office temperature: 8 a.m. 61, 12 noon 66, and 2 p.m. 66. Highest 66, Lowest 60. Fall River Daily Herald
Weather report, Thursday, August 4, 1892, according to the U.S. Signal Service at 7 a.m. 67 and at 2 p.m. 83 and at 9 p.m. 75.
Weather report until Thursday night, August 4, 1892. Fair, preceded by coast showers today, warmer Thursday, variable winds. Herald office temperature at 8 a.m. 66, 12 noon 72 and 2 p.m. 76 Highest 78, Lowest 63. Fall River Daily Herald
Rebello also stated as a note that no information was ever found for the humidity on August 4, 1892.
_______
So, I’m sure the temperature statements from authors of it being scorching/stifling/sweltering/suffocating hot on the morning of Thursday, August 4, 1892, came from the witnesses statements referring the heat in the barn loft. However, since there is no known record of what the humidity was on August the 4th, 1892, it is very possible that if the humidity was high, then an 83 degree day definitely would have felt like it was scorching/stifling/sweltering/suffocating hot; in reference to the barn loft or not.
There were several witnesses who testified about the heat on August 4th, 1892. All of the following testimonies are in reference to the heat in the barn loft, except for the testimony of Rufus B. Hilliard:
Trial testimony of Assistant City Marshal John Fleet page 482:
Q. How was the temperature in the barn in the afternoon? How was it up there in the afternoon?
A. Very hot.
Q. What sort of day was it in Fall River that day with respect to heat?
A. It was very hot, one of the hottest days, I think, we had had.
_______
Trial testimony of Philip Harrington 570:
Q. What was the temperature in that loft of the barn?
A. As to degrees, I cannot say, but it was extremely hot.
Officer Phillip Harrington 571:
Q. In addition to heat I will ask you the direct question, --- was it what was called close?
A. Yes, sir, suffocating, you might say.
_______
Trial testimony of Officer Patrick Doherty page 600:
Q. I will ask you what the temperature was up in the loft of the barn?
A. It was very warm.
Q. How was the air for breathing?
A. Very bad. It was stifling hot there. Very bad.
_______
Trial testimony of Officer William H. Medley page 692:
Q. Wait a moment now. Did you notice what the temperature was in the loft of the barn as you went up there?
A. Well, I know it was hot, that is all, very hot. You know it was a hot day.
_______
Trial testimony of The City Marshal of Fall River Rufus B. Hilliard page 1112:
Q. What sort of day was it with reference to the heat on the 4th of August last?
A. Very hot.
Q. How was the heat in this loft?
A. Well it was extremely warm there, almost suffocating --- the heat in the loft.
_______
However, Rebello states on page 61 (Red highlighting is mine):
Weather Reports:
Weather report, Tuesday evening, August 2, 1892. For RI, MA & CT Showers followed by clearing weather, cooler in the interior, easterly winds, shifting north. Fall River Daily Globe
Weather report until Tuesday night, August 2, 1892. Cloudy and unsettled, slightly warmer, variable winds, generally easterly to southerly, Wednesday , fair and cooler. Fall River Daily Herald.
Weather report for Wednesday evening, August 3, 1892. For New England, fair, preceded today by showers on the coast, slightly warmer, southeasterly winds. Fall River Daily Globe.
Weather report for Wednesday night, August 3, 1892. Con't cloudy, cool weather, easterly winds becoming variable. Herald office temperature: 8 a.m. 61, 12 noon 66, and 2 p.m. 66. Highest 66, Lowest 60. Fall River Daily Herald
Weather report, Thursday, August 4, 1892, according to the U.S. Signal Service at 7 a.m. 67 and at 2 p.m. 83 and at 9 p.m. 75.
Weather report until Thursday night, August 4, 1892. Fair, preceded by coast showers today, warmer Thursday, variable winds. Herald office temperature at 8 a.m. 66, 12 noon 72 and 2 p.m. 76 Highest 78, Lowest 63. Fall River Daily Herald
Rebello also stated as a note that no information was ever found for the humidity on August 4, 1892.
_______
So, I’m sure the temperature statements from authors of it being scorching/stifling/sweltering/suffocating hot on the morning of Thursday, August 4, 1892, came from the witnesses statements referring the heat in the barn loft. However, since there is no known record of what the humidity was on August the 4th, 1892, it is very possible that if the humidity was high, then an 83 degree day definitely would have felt like it was scorching/stifling/sweltering/suffocating hot; in reference to the barn loft or not.
Last edited by twinsrwe on Mon Mar 30, 2015 3:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
In remembrance of my beloved son:
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"Vaya Con Dios" (Spanish for: "Go with God"), by Anne Murray ( https://tinyurl.com/y8nvqqx9 )
“God has you in heaven, but I have you in my heart.” ~ TobyMac (https://tinyurl.com/rakc5nd )
- debbiediablo
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Re: Debunking the Myths
We tend to think of Abby as a long-suffering victim, probably because she ended up a victim, but we really know nothing about her personality. She could've been every bit the shrew or conniving or insipid or whatever. Or she could've been the long-suffering victim.
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- Aamartin
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Re: Debunking the Myths
That Abby was so morbidly obese she would need a hover-round had they been available at the time to get around
One thing that always bothered me about the movie-- showing Abby and Andrew eating breakfast like one would expect see savages eat-- shoveling food into their mouths and flies buzzing over the cauldron of mutton... I just don't think they lacked social graces and would have behaved like that.
That Abby was bitter and hateful
That Emma was so prim and proper-- don't believe that either
One thing that always bothered me about the movie-- showing Abby and Andrew eating breakfast like one would expect see savages eat-- shoveling food into their mouths and flies buzzing over the cauldron of mutton... I just don't think they lacked social graces and would have behaved like that.
That Abby was bitter and hateful
That Emma was so prim and proper-- don't believe that either
- Aamartin
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Re: Debunking the Myths
oops, double post
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Re: Debunking the Myths
I know this is an old thread, but I was wondering what was Lizzie's statement about the heat she allegedly experienced in the barn?
- twinsrwe
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Re: Debunking the Myths
Hello CertainSum1, welcome to the forum.
There is nothing wrong with asking a question or making a comment on an old thread. So, to answer your question, I don't recall that Lizzie made a statement regarding the heat in the barn loft. However, I will do some research and see if I can find anything.
There is nothing wrong with asking a question or making a comment on an old thread. So, to answer your question, I don't recall that Lizzie made a statement regarding the heat in the barn loft. However, I will do some research and see if I can find anything.
In remembrance of my beloved son:
"Vaya Con Dios" (Spanish for: "Go with God"), by Anne Murray ( https://tinyurl.com/y8nvqqx9 )
“God has you in heaven, but I have you in my heart.” ~ TobyMac (https://tinyurl.com/rakc5nd )
"Vaya Con Dios" (Spanish for: "Go with God"), by Anne Murray ( https://tinyurl.com/y8nvqqx9 )
“God has you in heaven, but I have you in my heart.” ~ TobyMac (https://tinyurl.com/rakc5nd )
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Re: Debunking the Myths
She did.
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- twinsrwe
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Re: Debunking the Myths
Thank you, KG!!! It's good to see you posting again.
Last edited by twinsrwe on Sun Oct 08, 2017 7:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
In remembrance of my beloved son:
"Vaya Con Dios" (Spanish for: "Go with God"), by Anne Murray ( https://tinyurl.com/y8nvqqx9 )
“God has you in heaven, but I have you in my heart.” ~ TobyMac (https://tinyurl.com/rakc5nd )
"Vaya Con Dios" (Spanish for: "Go with God"), by Anne Murray ( https://tinyurl.com/y8nvqqx9 )
“God has you in heaven, but I have you in my heart.” ~ TobyMac (https://tinyurl.com/rakc5nd )
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Re: Debunking the Myths
Thank you, KG! Clearly, if it was hot Lizzie wouldn't have stayed in the barn eating pears and hunting around for 20-30 minutes. That's just idiotic. If it wasn't, in fact, as hot as the prosecutor implied (and as historical weather data indicates) why would Lizzie not have said, "It was NOT unbearably hot up there. It was warm but not SO hot."
The fact that Lizzie makes no mention of how hot the barn loft is or ISN'T, or how comfortable or uncomfortable she was or wasn't, when it is a HUGE keystone of the prosecutions case indicates that she had no idea how hot the barn actually was, so evasive allusion to the place was all she would commit to.
If a prosecutor was hounding me about the exact layout of the barn's contents and I had, in fact, been in the barn as I claimed to have been, I would have offered a description of what I saw and how it felt up there to prove that I WAS in that barn! (boxes, sunlight, smell, etc)
I have a barn-like structure on my propery, and in the summer I'd NEVER choose to spend time in there eating a snack for 20+ minuntes (and I don't even have a higher up loft-level.) The prosecution's point on this, IMO, is spot on.
The fact that Lizzie makes no mention of how hot the barn loft is or ISN'T, or how comfortable or uncomfortable she was or wasn't, when it is a HUGE keystone of the prosecutions case indicates that she had no idea how hot the barn actually was, so evasive allusion to the place was all she would commit to.
If a prosecutor was hounding me about the exact layout of the barn's contents and I had, in fact, been in the barn as I claimed to have been, I would have offered a description of what I saw and how it felt up there to prove that I WAS in that barn! (boxes, sunlight, smell, etc)
I have a barn-like structure on my propery, and in the summer I'd NEVER choose to spend time in there eating a snack for 20+ minuntes (and I don't even have a higher up loft-level.) The prosecution's point on this, IMO, is spot on.
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Re: Debunking the Myths
And, why didn't Jennings, the defense atty, refute the prosecution's claim that the heat in the barn was unbearable if historical weather date implies that it wasn't actually SO hot that day, and certainly not the "hottest day of the year"? I proffer that it's because Lizzie had nothing to offer about the real conditions in that barn loft because she wasn't there.
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Re: Debunking the Myths
I believe it's true that the effect of temperature on many of us is relative to how our body takes in sensory information. I love the heat and am way more active when it's in the 90s, and have been in barns on very hot summer days with no problems at all. So I believe it's possible she could've stayed in the barn while feeling hot, but maybe not uncomfortable enough to leave right away. And so I also think the temperature related to whether she could have stayed in that barn or not was not a very strong point for the prosecution's side who has the burden of proof.
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Re: Debunking the Myths
Yes: This topic was extensively looked at back in 2006, around the time Abraham Lincoln was Pres. Well, not that long ago...
I had talked about this then, and below is the link to the discussion. I for one never believed that it was that hot inside the barn. I believe Brownie and Barlow over the police. Any day
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4891&p=77767&hilit= ... t+4#p77767
I had talked about this then, and below is the link to the discussion. I for one never believed that it was that hot inside the barn. I believe Brownie and Barlow over the police. Any day
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4891&p=77767&hilit= ... t+4#p77767
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Re: Debunking the Myths
I believe Barlow and Brownie too. And so now I think I have oldtimers D. because I didn't remember posting on the earlier topic at all, that is until read it then it all came back.
So the hot barn story is debunked? Yes?
So the hot barn story is debunked? Yes?
- InterestedReader
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Re: Debunking the Myths
I rather believe she was in the barn that morning, irrespective of the issue of guilt or innocence. So, there's not quite a consensus. KG has researched the identities of Barlow & Brownie, their subsequent lives, & I think he concludes that one of them at least wouldn't be above lying.
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Re: Debunking the Myths
i agree with patsy
- snokkums
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Re: Debunking the Myths
I think that Lizzie was all over the place. To me, she was just going about her everyday business. But still found time to kill her parents. LOl!! Ok, that was me being a smart but.
Suicide is painless It brings on many changes and I will take my leave when I please.
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Re: Debunking the Myths
Good way of putting it Snokkums. She does speak as if she thought she was going about her everyday business.
- twinsrwe
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Re: Debunking the Myths
Hello samiandy, welcome to the forum.
In remembrance of my beloved son:
"Vaya Con Dios" (Spanish for: "Go with God"), by Anne Murray ( https://tinyurl.com/y8nvqqx9 )
“God has you in heaven, but I have you in my heart.” ~ TobyMac (https://tinyurl.com/rakc5nd )
"Vaya Con Dios" (Spanish for: "Go with God"), by Anne Murray ( https://tinyurl.com/y8nvqqx9 )
“God has you in heaven, but I have you in my heart.” ~ TobyMac (https://tinyurl.com/rakc5nd )
- twinsrwe
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Re: Debunking the Myths
Robin, I think you are right on in your description of Lizzie's actions on the morning of August 4th, 1892.
In remembrance of my beloved son:
"Vaya Con Dios" (Spanish for: "Go with God"), by Anne Murray ( https://tinyurl.com/y8nvqqx9 )
“God has you in heaven, but I have you in my heart.” ~ TobyMac (https://tinyurl.com/rakc5nd )
"Vaya Con Dios" (Spanish for: "Go with God"), by Anne Murray ( https://tinyurl.com/y8nvqqx9 )
“God has you in heaven, but I have you in my heart.” ~ TobyMac (https://tinyurl.com/rakc5nd )
- Susib
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Re: Debunking the Myths
To be honest I think too that Lizzie was over the place but for different reason. I believe she was kind of watching Bridget.. ( asking her about the windows...about the fabric sale..)..every time I read her movements that morning I arrive to the same conclusion
- twinsrwe
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Re: Debunking the Myths
I agree, Susana. Lizzie had to know where Bridget was, and what she was doing, so that she (Lizzie) could remain in complete control of everything that took place on the morning of August 4th.
In remembrance of my beloved son:
"Vaya Con Dios" (Spanish for: "Go with God"), by Anne Murray ( https://tinyurl.com/y8nvqqx9 )
“God has you in heaven, but I have you in my heart.” ~ TobyMac (https://tinyurl.com/rakc5nd )
"Vaya Con Dios" (Spanish for: "Go with God"), by Anne Murray ( https://tinyurl.com/y8nvqqx9 )
“God has you in heaven, but I have you in my heart.” ~ TobyMac (https://tinyurl.com/rakc5nd )