Original opening post has been updated to include address information provided by the 1887, 1889, 1891 and 1892 New Bedford City Directories. These are the years between 1880-1893 that we have been able to locate digitally.
Thanks Cagney!
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Knowlton Papers - Pages 182-184. Document HK 182. Based on chronological placement by editors, list was written mid-May, 1893.
These pages contain a witness list that Knowlton handwrote in preparation for the trial which took place the following month.
The following handwritten note was on the reverse side of the list.
"Miss Carrie Poole, mad"
Was this note by Knowlton suggesting that Carrie Pool (correct spelling) was insane or had some other chronic/lifelong mental handicap?
I think the answer is no.
What might Carrie Pool have testified about at Lizzie’s trial?
Knowlton would have asked Carrie to describe conversations she had with Lizzie regarding the Borden family relationships and Lizzie’s concerns about Andrews ‘estate planning’ consequences. Carrie’s sister, Augusta Tripp, testified at the inquest that Carrie had these conversations with Lizzie.
Augusta D. Tripp Inquest testimony Page 141.
Q. Did Lizzie say to you she did not know that either Emma or she would get anything in the event of her father’s death?
A. I did not hear her say so.
Q. Who told you she said so?
A. I think my invalid sister told me so.
Q. What is her name?
A. Miss Carrie M. Poole (sic), she is very feeble, she lives on Madison street, New Bedford, she is very feeble indeed.
What do we know about Carrie?
Carrie, born Oct. 23, 1860 (just 3 months after Lizzie), was raised in Westport, Ma., a small village ~10 miles from Fall River. She was the youngest of two daughters born to Nancy H. Pool; the older daughter being Augusta Tripp (inquest witness). During her Westport years, Carrie lived with her sister and mother in the home of her grandfather (George H. Gifford). This living arrangement changed with her sister’s marriage in 1881 and her grandfathers death, a year later, in 1882.
At that point, around 1882/83, Carrie, Nancy, and Nancy's cousin, Frank S. Davis, moved to New Bedford. They resided at a number of addresses in New Bedford, including 192 Grinnell Street, 107 Fourth, and 239 Acushnet. The George W. Howland family also resided in each of these locations with the Pool's. It is likely that in May, 1891, the Howland's, Carrie and Nancy (Frank died 1888) moved to 20 Madison Street. It was at this location which Lizzie visited two weeks prior to the Borden murders.
Carrie died from tuberculosis June 18, 1893, ironically as Lizzie's trial was drawing to a close. The trial and Carrie's death both occurred in New Bedford.
Now, back to Knowlton’s “mad” notation about Carrie.
To start, it is noted that the witness list was written just a month before Carrie’s death and the trial. At that point in time, Carrie was in the most dire conditions that tuberculosis can place upon its victim. So the context of the word ‘mad’, could merely be that she was delirious from the disease or the medical treatment of the disease, making her unable to be a witness in the trial.
Second, Carrie lived at 20 Madison Street. The notation, “mad”, could be short for Madison, as a notation as to where she could be found for an interview.
Setting aside both of these two plausible explanations for Knowlton’s notation, do we have any clues that Carrie might have been insane or anything comparable?
We don’t have volumes of documentation of Carrie’s life….but we do have a handful of interesting insights of her personal history that indicate Carrie participated in many of the ‘normal’ aspects of life and did not appear to be limited by a mental or physical handicap for the majority of her life.
#1 Carrie attended school.
1870 U.S. Census lists Augusta and Carrie Pool as attending school.
#2 Disability not recorded when status requested.
1880 U.S. Census, which specifically gathered information about idiotic, insane and disabled residents, does not have any notations indicating Carrie had any of these issues.
Column 18. Idiotic Column 19. Insane Column 20. Crippled/Paralyzed
click on image to enlarge
#3 Carrie was employed.
“She was for five or six years in the employ of H.S. Hutchinson & Co.”
Source: New Bedford Evening Standard. June 21, 1893.
1892 New Bedford city directory
Lizzie Inquest testimony
Q. Did you buy a dress pattern in New Bedford?
A. A dress pattern?
Q. Yes.
A. I think I did.
Q. Where did you buy it?
A. I don't know the name of the store.
Q. On the principal street there?
A. I think it was on the street that Hutchinson's bookstore is on. I am not positive.
Q. What kind of a one was it, please?
A. It was a pink stripe and a white stripe, and a blue stripe corded gingham.
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Is there a reason that Lizzie specifically remembered Hutchinson’s bookstore location and name? Neither she or Nancy Pool mention book shopping during Lizzie’s New Bedford visit. To me, it is clear that Lizzie knew of this bookstore because her friend Carrie worked there and presumably was mentioned in conversation and Lizzie likely calling on the bookstore during previous visits to the Pool’s and New Bedford.
#4 Carrie was active in civic organizations
"Miss Carrie Poole, mad"
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camgarsky4
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"Miss Carrie Poole, mad"
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Last edited by camgarsky4 on Sat Jul 13, 2024 10:20 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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CagneyBT
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Re: "Miss Carrie Poole, mad"
hi Cam! 
I don't believe that Carrie Poole was insane at all, and I think your research bears that out. Good job!
Knowlton's notation of "mad" was most likely a reference to her address at 20 Madison St, not her state of mind.
As early as August 1892, Carrie was "very feeble indeed," according to Augusta Tripp's inquest testimony. Carrie was debilitated by the ravages of pulmonary tuberculosis. By the time of the trial in June 1893, she was in the final stages of the disease. The average life span of someone with tuberculosis was three years, and there was no treatment. It was also extremely contagious. For that reason alone, Carrie wouldn't have been allowed to set foot in the courtroom, even if she was physically able to testify.
Another hurdle facing Knowlton was the time issue; Remember that Anna Borden's testimony had been excluded because it was too remote in time in relation to the murders (comments by Lizzie made to her in 1890). The court likely would have ruled against allowing Carrie's testimony for the same reason. Augusta Tripp couldn't pinpoint when Carrie had her conversations with Lizzie or when Augusta herself had learned of them. She stated at the inquest that "those things were years back, and thinking they never would come up, I can't recollect word for word things that occured years ago."
I think these factors explain why Carrie wasn't called as a witness.
I didn't know that Carrie worked at Hutchinson's bookstore. It makes sense why Lizzie used it as a sort of landmark in relation to the clothing store she visited in New Bedford. Do we know what years Carrie worked there? That could provide a time frame as to when Carrie and Lizzie possibly chatted about the Borden family relations.
I don't believe that Carrie Poole was insane at all, and I think your research bears that out. Good job!
Knowlton's notation of "mad" was most likely a reference to her address at 20 Madison St, not her state of mind.
As early as August 1892, Carrie was "very feeble indeed," according to Augusta Tripp's inquest testimony. Carrie was debilitated by the ravages of pulmonary tuberculosis. By the time of the trial in June 1893, she was in the final stages of the disease. The average life span of someone with tuberculosis was three years, and there was no treatment. It was also extremely contagious. For that reason alone, Carrie wouldn't have been allowed to set foot in the courtroom, even if she was physically able to testify.
Another hurdle facing Knowlton was the time issue; Remember that Anna Borden's testimony had been excluded because it was too remote in time in relation to the murders (comments by Lizzie made to her in 1890). The court likely would have ruled against allowing Carrie's testimony for the same reason. Augusta Tripp couldn't pinpoint when Carrie had her conversations with Lizzie or when Augusta herself had learned of them. She stated at the inquest that "those things were years back, and thinking they never would come up, I can't recollect word for word things that occured years ago."
I think these factors explain why Carrie wasn't called as a witness.
I didn't know that Carrie worked at Hutchinson's bookstore. It makes sense why Lizzie used it as a sort of landmark in relation to the clothing store she visited in New Bedford. Do we know what years Carrie worked there? That could provide a time frame as to when Carrie and Lizzie possibly chatted about the Borden family relations.
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camgarsky4
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Re: "Miss Carrie Poole, mad"
It seems most likely that Carrie and Nancy moved to New Bedford late 1892 or early 1893, less than a year after George Gifford died and his home sold.
We know Carrie was ill when Lizzie visited July, 1892. Carrie's housemate and second cousin, Frank, died from tuberculosis in the Spring, 1888. This would make Nancy and Carrie hyper aware of the symptoms. Due to the contagious nature of TB, if they suspected Carrie was ill, Nancy would have isolated her sooner rather than later.
My best guess is that Carrie worked the 5-6 years at Hutchinson during the time frame of 1883 - 1891. I would lean toward the later portion of the range since its the job noted in her obit.
I've posted previously that I think the Pool sisters had an alternating visit arrangement with Lizzie. One year with Borden's, next at the Pool/Tripp's. Nancy mentions in Jennings (page 251) that the last time Lizzie visited her in New Bedford was two years previous. That would be 1890...same year as the Europe trip. With no reason to lie, Lizzie testified that prior to the July '92 New Bedford visit, her last overnight visit anywhere was her trip to Europe.
If everyone is 'spot on' with their recollections, the combination of all that suggests to me that Lizzie and Carrie talked family in the Spring, 1890. Lizzie's discontent at that time would match up well with what it appears Anna Borden was planning to testify regarding the Europe trip and Lizzie's comments about her family.
We know Carrie was ill when Lizzie visited July, 1892. Carrie's housemate and second cousin, Frank, died from tuberculosis in the Spring, 1888. This would make Nancy and Carrie hyper aware of the symptoms. Due to the contagious nature of TB, if they suspected Carrie was ill, Nancy would have isolated her sooner rather than later.
My best guess is that Carrie worked the 5-6 years at Hutchinson during the time frame of 1883 - 1891. I would lean toward the later portion of the range since its the job noted in her obit.
I've posted previously that I think the Pool sisters had an alternating visit arrangement with Lizzie. One year with Borden's, next at the Pool/Tripp's. Nancy mentions in Jennings (page 251) that the last time Lizzie visited her in New Bedford was two years previous. That would be 1890...same year as the Europe trip. With no reason to lie, Lizzie testified that prior to the July '92 New Bedford visit, her last overnight visit anywhere was her trip to Europe.
If everyone is 'spot on' with their recollections, the combination of all that suggests to me that Lizzie and Carrie talked family in the Spring, 1890. Lizzie's discontent at that time would match up well with what it appears Anna Borden was planning to testify regarding the Europe trip and Lizzie's comments about her family.
Last edited by camgarsky4 on Thu Jul 11, 2024 7:50 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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CagneyBT
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Re: "Miss Carrie Poole, mad"
These are the listings for the Pools in the available New Bedford city directories:
Hutchinson's book & stationary store was located at 194 Union St. The work address for Carrie in the 1891 & 1892 directories is No. 9 Eighth St. There was a J.C. Shaw, M.D. who had an office & residence at that address.
According to Jennings, Nancy Pool told him that Lizzie last visited two years previously. That would have been in 1890, the year Lizzie went to Europe.
If these dates are correct, then Carrie's testimony, like Anna Borden's, would have been excluded as being too remote in time.
Hutchinson's book & stationary store was located at 194 Union St. The work address for Carrie in the 1891 & 1892 directories is No. 9 Eighth St. There was a J.C. Shaw, M.D. who had an office & residence at that address.
According to Jennings, Nancy Pool told him that Lizzie last visited two years previously. That would have been in 1890, the year Lizzie went to Europe.
If these dates are correct, then Carrie's testimony, like Anna Borden's, would have been excluded as being too remote in time.
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camgarsky4
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Re: "Miss Carrie Poole, mad"
Opening post has been updated to reflect the additional city directory information Cagney has provided.
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CagneyBT
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Re: "Miss Carrie Poole, mad"
It seems to be a common misconception (one I had also shared) that Nancy & Carrie Pool and a man named George W. Howland were the only residents at 20 Madison St. in 1892.
But the Pools and George W. Howland's relationship was familial, and the household was much larger than previously thought.
George W. Howland and his family shared the same residences as Nancy & Carrie Pool at 192 Grinnell, 107 Fourth, 239 Acushnet St., and 20 Madison St. during the years 1887-1893. The Howlands & the Pools lived as one family unit.
George Howland was married to Jennie Louise Pool in July 1885. Jennie was a cousin to both Nancy & Edwin Pool. At the time of their marriage, George was a mariner and Jennie was a teacher. Jennie's sister, Mary Pool, also resided in New Bedford at 87 Grinnell St.; she was married to John S. Davis, who was a cousin of Frank Davis. Frank lived with Nancy & Carrie and the Howlands at 192 Grinnell St.; he died of pulmonary tuberculosis in 1888.
George's mother, Susan Grinnell Howland, also lived in the household. She died in July 1891 at 239 Acushnet St.
George and Jennie had three sons: Myron Howland, b. 1886 at 192 Grinnell St.; Roy B. Howland, b. 1891 at 239 Achushnet St.-d.1894; George Howland, Jr. b. 1894.
In Nancy Pool's interview with Andrew J. Jennings, she relates the family activites during Lizzie's visit in July 1892:
"Sat. morning after breakfast she (Lizzie) went down street & when she came home she brot home this dress pattern & bunch of sweet peas. Know it was Sat because she said bot them because our are wilted & they will be pretty for Sunday. Sat afternoon we went to Fairhaven & took little boy with me -- think when we came home I got something at Market -- She (Lizzie) wasn't out of my sight as walked -- told me about getting Frank's pills."
I believe the little boy Nancy referred to was Myron Howland, who would have been five or six years old at the time. (His father, George, was born in Fairhaven).
Jennie Howland had a nephew named named Frank E. Davis, but he died in 1882. Another nephew, Everett Francis Davis, was "feeble-minded." He was 19 years old in 1892. He may have been referred to informally as "Frank." Is he the mysterious individual who required the pills?
George W. Howland later became a sexton at the North Congregational Church in New Bedford. He died of pulmonary tuberculosis in April of 1895. The Howland family appeared in dire financial straits as the church threw a benefit concert for the family prior to his death:
Nancy Pool & her daughter, Augusta Pool Tripp, remained close to the Howland family after George's death.
I wonder if Lizzie enjoyed visiting the Pools because the household, with the two young Howland children, was obviously lively, close-knit and normal...a far cry from the dreariness of Second St.
But the Pools and George W. Howland's relationship was familial, and the household was much larger than previously thought.
George W. Howland and his family shared the same residences as Nancy & Carrie Pool at 192 Grinnell, 107 Fourth, 239 Acushnet St., and 20 Madison St. during the years 1887-1893. The Howlands & the Pools lived as one family unit.
George Howland was married to Jennie Louise Pool in July 1885. Jennie was a cousin to both Nancy & Edwin Pool. At the time of their marriage, George was a mariner and Jennie was a teacher. Jennie's sister, Mary Pool, also resided in New Bedford at 87 Grinnell St.; she was married to John S. Davis, who was a cousin of Frank Davis. Frank lived with Nancy & Carrie and the Howlands at 192 Grinnell St.; he died of pulmonary tuberculosis in 1888.
George's mother, Susan Grinnell Howland, also lived in the household. She died in July 1891 at 239 Acushnet St.
George and Jennie had three sons: Myron Howland, b. 1886 at 192 Grinnell St.; Roy B. Howland, b. 1891 at 239 Achushnet St.-d.1894; George Howland, Jr. b. 1894.
In Nancy Pool's interview with Andrew J. Jennings, she relates the family activites during Lizzie's visit in July 1892:
"Sat. morning after breakfast she (Lizzie) went down street & when she came home she brot home this dress pattern & bunch of sweet peas. Know it was Sat because she said bot them because our are wilted & they will be pretty for Sunday. Sat afternoon we went to Fairhaven & took little boy with me -- think when we came home I got something at Market -- She (Lizzie) wasn't out of my sight as walked -- told me about getting Frank's pills."
I believe the little boy Nancy referred to was Myron Howland, who would have been five or six years old at the time. (His father, George, was born in Fairhaven).
Jennie Howland had a nephew named named Frank E. Davis, but he died in 1882. Another nephew, Everett Francis Davis, was "feeble-minded." He was 19 years old in 1892. He may have been referred to informally as "Frank." Is he the mysterious individual who required the pills?
George W. Howland later became a sexton at the North Congregational Church in New Bedford. He died of pulmonary tuberculosis in April of 1895. The Howland family appeared in dire financial straits as the church threw a benefit concert for the family prior to his death:
Nancy Pool & her daughter, Augusta Pool Tripp, remained close to the Howland family after George's death.
I wonder if Lizzie enjoyed visiting the Pools because the household, with the two young Howland children, was obviously lively, close-knit and normal...a far cry from the dreariness of Second St.
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camgarsky4
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Re: "Miss Carrie Poole, mad"
Hot & cold water.....another reason Lizzie might have been drawn to visit the Pool's! 
click on image to enlarge.
click on image to enlarge.
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camgarsky4
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Re: "Miss Carrie Poole, mad"
Reactivating.
One of my favorite threads. Not necessarily info about the crime, but a lot of good stuff helping us get to know and understand some of the secondary and tertiary characters in the Borden saga. This is the sort of research I've been focused on past couple years.
One of my favorite threads. Not necessarily info about the crime, but a lot of good stuff helping us get to know and understand some of the secondary and tertiary characters in the Borden saga. This is the sort of research I've been focused on past couple years.
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Lorcan
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Re: "Miss Carrie Poole, mad"
Very interesting that Lizzie would be the one to pick up the prescription, being a visiting guest. I wonder if a bottle conveniently went missing and Lizzie just happened to have just mentioned she had shopping to do, so she could pick the pills up while she was out. That is very tenuous speculation on my part.
Hercule Poirot's Little Grey Cells would be percolating - I'll try to find out if Knowlton or anyone else asked if a bottle of pills happened to go missing in the house that morning.
Hercule Poirot's Little Grey Cells would be percolating - I'll try to find out if Knowlton or anyone else asked if a bottle of pills happened to go missing in the house that morning.
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camgarsky4
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Re: "Miss Carrie Poole, mad"
What it tells us assuredly is that Lizzie visited a pharmacy in New Bedford. We also know from Knowlton's witness list that he planned to call two New Bedford pharmacists to likely report that Lizzie attempted to purchase prussic acid. Spencer does a magnificent writeup on this in his book "Case Against Lizzie Borden".
My thoughts on Lizzie's visit to the Pool's has evolved dramatically from the other thread. I now think Carrie was her closer friend as compared to Augusta Tripp. Lizzie went to the Pool's to help care for Carrie. That would readily explain why Lizzie only left the Pool home a couple times over 5 days. Carrie and Lizzie were almost exactly same age, Augusta testified that it was Carrie who Lizzie told about family strife and it was Carrie that Lizzie visited for 5 days prior to murders. They just dropped in on Augusta in Westport for a long day trip.
That said, I could find no indicators in newspapers that Lizzie attended Carrie's funeral as the trial was coming to a close. If she didn't attend, it was probably recommended to avoid crazy crowds at the funeral. Carrie and Augusta's mom, Nancy, and Lizzie visited each other a couple times over the years. There was even a newspaper report that the two of the them were going to Europe together....but either false report or they changed their mind, because no record of the voyage.
My thoughts on Lizzie's visit to the Pool's has evolved dramatically from the other thread. I now think Carrie was her closer friend as compared to Augusta Tripp. Lizzie went to the Pool's to help care for Carrie. That would readily explain why Lizzie only left the Pool home a couple times over 5 days. Carrie and Lizzie were almost exactly same age, Augusta testified that it was Carrie who Lizzie told about family strife and it was Carrie that Lizzie visited for 5 days prior to murders. They just dropped in on Augusta in Westport for a long day trip.
That said, I could find no indicators in newspapers that Lizzie attended Carrie's funeral as the trial was coming to a close. If she didn't attend, it was probably recommended to avoid crazy crowds at the funeral. Carrie and Augusta's mom, Nancy, and Lizzie visited each other a couple times over the years. There was even a newspaper report that the two of the them were going to Europe together....but either false report or they changed their mind, because no record of the voyage.
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Inspector
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Re: "Miss Carrie Poole, mad"
Interesting thread, well researched, and presented. Since Carrie and Lizzie were the same age and closer than the others, it tends to make Carrie’s purposed comments about Abby more believable.
The one day visit stands out a bit strange , along with the repetitious nature of Lizzie , cheap fabric sales, and pharmacies. It’s certainly tempting to point a little straighter at her.
Going back through the WS I hadn’t remembered how many different people claimed there was trouble,or unpleasantries at 92 Second Street.
I’ll throw an alternative view of Knowlton’s “mad” notation.
Maybe it meant that Lizzie was “mad” at her father and stepmother.
The one day visit stands out a bit strange , along with the repetitious nature of Lizzie , cheap fabric sales, and pharmacies. It’s certainly tempting to point a little straighter at her.
Going back through the WS I hadn’t remembered how many different people claimed there was trouble,or unpleasantries at 92 Second Street.
I’ll throw an alternative view of Knowlton’s “mad” notation.
Maybe it meant that Lizzie was “mad” at her father and stepmother.
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Lorcan
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Re: "Miss Carrie Poole, mad"
Inspector - that's a solid possibility. Perhaps he thought Lizzie would have been particularly forthcoming with Carrie about how angry she was on the day of the visit and specifically what she was most angry about. I don't mean the longstanding anger, but something new, maybe that was said during the argument when Andrew bought back the Ferry Street house.
If Lizzie was guilty and if the original plan was poison, I wonder how far back in time we have to go to figure out when it went from a dark fantasy to an actual plan in motion.
If Lizzie was guilty and if the original plan was poison, I wonder how far back in time we have to go to figure out when it went from a dark fantasy to an actual plan in motion.
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Inspector
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Re: "Miss Carrie Poole, mad"
I see what you mean, given that Lizzie seemed to be tight lipped for some time after the supposed comments to Carrie. I wonder if there are personal letters in private ownership that would shed light on Carrie and Lizzie’s friendship. I imagine they would write each other from time to time.
I remember Michael Martins speaking about Parallel Lives, and commented that absolutely there are these private collections of items pertaining to the case and Lizzie, possibly photography as well. He said something to the effect—we are just waiting for when they are ready to release them .
I just wonder if some will show up and some lost to time.
I remember Michael Martins speaking about Parallel Lives, and commented that absolutely there are these private collections of items pertaining to the case and Lizzie, possibly photography as well. He said something to the effect—we are just waiting for when they are ready to release them .
I just wonder if some will show up and some lost to time.
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Inspector
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Re: "Miss Carrie Poole, mad"
Admin may delete if not proper.
Here’s a interesting article with a nice picture of Augusta Poole (Mrs Cyrus Tripp)
https://lizziebordenwarpsandwefts.com/2 ... sta-tripp/
Here’s a interesting article with a nice picture of Augusta Poole (Mrs Cyrus Tripp)
https://lizziebordenwarpsandwefts.com/2 ... sta-tripp/
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Lorcan
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Re: "Miss Carrie Poole, mad"
Augusta D. Tripp Inquest testimony Page 141.
Q. Did Lizzie say to you she did not know that either Emma or she would get anything in the event of her father’s death?
A. I did not hear her say so.
Q. Who told you she said so?
A. I think my invalid sister told me so.
Q. What is her name?
A. Miss Carrie M. Poole (sic), she is very feeble, she lives on Madison street, New Bedford, she is very feeble indeed.
I'm going to make some assumptions to put forth some speculation. Grab your salt grinders for this one (as in take this with a grain of salt). Some of them are extremely speculative, but I'm trying to think of what might have made Lizzie feel such an existential threat that Live Free or Die became her motto.
1. Andrew was a true believer in his Puritan Yankee frugalness and hard work, to the point where he thought it was a moral imperative.
2. Andrew was dead set against his hard earned money being used as a garish, gratuitous peacock display of wealth to gain social standing in The Hill.
3. Andrew grew to trust, respect, and even love Abby, who was loyal, hard working, and much closer in values and personality to himself.
4. Andrew was growing more and more disapproving of the way his daughters were treating Abby.
5. Andrew was realizing that no matter what he gave his daughters, especially Lizzie, it wasn't enough to heal the growing rift.
6. He decided to ensure Abby would not be subject to his daughters financially.
7. He decided his money would have strings attached and those strings may have been designed to teach Lizzie a moral lesson.
Q. Did Lizzie say to you she did not know that either Emma or she would get anything in the event of her father’s death?
A. I did not hear her say so.
Q. Who told you she said so?
A. I think my invalid sister told me so.
Q. What is her name?
A. Miss Carrie M. Poole (sic), she is very feeble, she lives on Madison street, New Bedford, she is very feeble indeed.
I'm going to make some assumptions to put forth some speculation. Grab your salt grinders for this one (as in take this with a grain of salt). Some of them are extremely speculative, but I'm trying to think of what might have made Lizzie feel such an existential threat that Live Free or Die became her motto.
1. Andrew was a true believer in his Puritan Yankee frugalness and hard work, to the point where he thought it was a moral imperative.
2. Andrew was dead set against his hard earned money being used as a garish, gratuitous peacock display of wealth to gain social standing in The Hill.
3. Andrew grew to trust, respect, and even love Abby, who was loyal, hard working, and much closer in values and personality to himself.
4. Andrew was growing more and more disapproving of the way his daughters were treating Abby.
5. Andrew was realizing that no matter what he gave his daughters, especially Lizzie, it wasn't enough to heal the growing rift.
6. He decided to ensure Abby would not be subject to his daughters financially.
7. He decided his money would have strings attached and those strings may have been designed to teach Lizzie a moral lesson.
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camgarsky4
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Re: "Miss Carrie Poole, mad"
I think the 'spirit' of your supposition is spot on.....
Over the years, I think she gradually became emotionally withdrawn from Andrew. And then clearly something 'lit the fuse' the summer of '92.
Lizzie wanted to live a certain way, she knew the resources were available to live that way, the person in control of the resources didn't agree with her, if he wasn't around the lifestyle would be within her grasp. Being a narcissist, her thought process decided the solution was obvious and it was ok to remove that obstacle for her own benefit. Afterall he was an old man, had lived a good life, and she deserved to be a 'Fall River Borden'.
p.s. The linked article was ok, but we know so much more now. One correction...Augusta and Cyrus were married in 1881...not 1891.
Over the years, I think she gradually became emotionally withdrawn from Andrew. And then clearly something 'lit the fuse' the summer of '92.
Lizzie wanted to live a certain way, she knew the resources were available to live that way, the person in control of the resources didn't agree with her, if he wasn't around the lifestyle would be within her grasp. Being a narcissist, her thought process decided the solution was obvious and it was ok to remove that obstacle for her own benefit. Afterall he was an old man, had lived a good life, and she deserved to be a 'Fall River Borden'.
p.s. The linked article was ok, but we know so much more now. One correction...Augusta and Cyrus were married in 1881...not 1891.
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Inspector
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Re: "Miss Carrie Poole, mad"
I think there are parts of truth in both analysis you two just presented. I think if the words of the Poole’s/Tripps are true as they appear to be, then Lizzie was fearful of Abby’s influence over her dad, and was worried about the unknown.
Wheather the influence was real or imagined is up to speculation, but Lizzie was convinced. and had shown a theme of complaints of this nature towards Abby, not just an isolated instance.
JVM by Lizzie’s own admission had mentioned a will, and Lizzie may have even been tipped off as to its contents or known about the document that was found after the murders which listed financials—Cam know the details—-
Lizzie quickly rambled off several properties when asked at her inquest, so she knew what was there to lose.
Does Lizzie’s—man at the door story give us a glimpse as to how she thought of her dad?
“I thought with your reputation for liking money “
Was this also a description of her as well?
Wheather the influence was real or imagined is up to speculation, but Lizzie was convinced. and had shown a theme of complaints of this nature towards Abby, not just an isolated instance.
JVM by Lizzie’s own admission had mentioned a will, and Lizzie may have even been tipped off as to its contents or known about the document that was found after the murders which listed financials—Cam know the details—-
Lizzie quickly rambled off several properties when asked at her inquest, so she knew what was there to lose.
Does Lizzie’s—man at the door story give us a glimpse as to how she thought of her dad?
“I thought with your reputation for liking money “
Was this also a description of her as well?
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Lorcan
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Re: "Miss Carrie Poole, mad"
I think Lizzie lived in books and magazines quite a bit, and in some areas she was inexperienced enough that her ideas of how the world works was sourced from those books. Some examples are her trying to tell the police the lock was picked with a full-sized nail or that the police need not search a room because Lizzie had the key and kept it locked.
Consider what she is saying:
1. An out of town man who wants a building lease does not show up at Andrew's business office, nor bank, but at his front door without being accompanied by a mutual acquaintance?
2. He wants to put in a type of business that Andrew outright refuses yet this outsider thinks the city will approve it?
3. He personally insults his prospective business partner, to his face, in his home, while trying to negotiate a deal?
4. Lizzie hears just the relevant parts of the conversation to portray this mysterious outsider who might be a threat to Andrew?
5. Who else in the house heard any of this?
Consider what she is saying:
1. An out of town man who wants a building lease does not show up at Andrew's business office, nor bank, but at his front door without being accompanied by a mutual acquaintance?
2. He wants to put in a type of business that Andrew outright refuses yet this outsider thinks the city will approve it?
3. He personally insults his prospective business partner, to his face, in his home, while trying to negotiate a deal?
4. Lizzie hears just the relevant parts of the conversation to portray this mysterious outsider who might be a threat to Andrew?
5. Who else in the house heard any of this?
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Inspector
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Re: "Miss Carrie Poole, mad"
Consider Knowlton’s question during Lizzie’s inquest::
“Did you ever have any trouble with your stepmother?”
Lizzie goes on to admit it happened 5 years earlier, but denies hard words, but admits it was a difference of opinion.
So if there was trouble, and this difference of opinion, well that doesn’t make much sense.
Andrew made it right by giving Emma and Lizzie ownership of a house, so where is the difference of opinion?
The only thing I can come up with is that Abby disagrees that what was done for her should be done for the sisters, but I find it hard to believe that Abby would be that domineering over the equality demands of the sisters, since clearly Andrew gave in to them.
What Lizzie is saying—if I am reading correctly—-is that Abby didn’t want anything given to the sisters in response to what Andrew gave to Mrs Whitehead. (difference of opinion)
Did Abby really have this viewpoint, and if so, I can imagine “hard words”, and possibly “trouble”, but is this the Abby we know?
Did Lizzie believe a lie in her own mind, and let it continue to grow over the next five years?
“Did you ever have any trouble with your stepmother?”
Lizzie goes on to admit it happened 5 years earlier, but denies hard words, but admits it was a difference of opinion.
So if there was trouble, and this difference of opinion, well that doesn’t make much sense.
Andrew made it right by giving Emma and Lizzie ownership of a house, so where is the difference of opinion?
The only thing I can come up with is that Abby disagrees that what was done for her should be done for the sisters, but I find it hard to believe that Abby would be that domineering over the equality demands of the sisters, since clearly Andrew gave in to them.
What Lizzie is saying—if I am reading correctly—-is that Abby didn’t want anything given to the sisters in response to what Andrew gave to Mrs Whitehead. (difference of opinion)
Did Abby really have this viewpoint, and if so, I can imagine “hard words”, and possibly “trouble”, but is this the Abby we know?
Did Lizzie believe a lie in her own mind, and let it continue to grow over the next five years?
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Lorcan
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Re: "Miss Carrie Poole, mad"
I think the phrase "difference of opinion" might have been used by Lizzie as a way to classify the argument as something less severe, not that the literal opinion of Abby was the girls shouldn't get an equal gift. I don't think Abby told Andrew what to do with his daughters and that is what I think is the core of the problem in that house.
Abby, when it came to her side of the family, Abby got results out of Andrew. Whether she simply advocated for her half-sister or "persuaded" Andrew as both Emma and Lizzie worded it, if my memory is correct - the end result is Lizzie was 4 and Emma about 14 when Abby became their step-mother.
They needed her to absolutely put her foot down and get modern plumbing and bathtubs throughout the house. Lizzie needed Abby to make sure she had the dignity and position within the house to have a private bedroom with a door of her own. Abby did none of these things successfully, if she did them at all, which I doubt. Yet, when it came to her half-sister, who was 2 years younger than Lizzie, Abby did treat her like a daughter. Abby did successfully advocate for Andrew to give her the dignity, security, and social position of a paid off house, not simply a bathtub or a private bedroom.
Not only that, but Abby kept it a secret. Andrew kept it a secret. I could be wrong, but that is for me, if I were Lizzie and Emma, that is the root cause of the severe break in trust, a rift that dollars couldn't heal, especially when the payoff was a house in constant need of repairs, where the rents collected barely paid for its upkeep - more of a "Let's show these spoiled brats what real work is required to accumulate money. Let them try to run a business and make a profit."
Andrew didn't simply give them a house, he gave them a challenge, a job, in managing that rental house on Ferry Street. It wasn't a gift so much as it was a life lesson, one which the daughters failed at.
I hope Camgarsky comes to the defense of Andrew and Abby. Every time I try to be fair-handed and objective about them, my subjective opinion on what I think they should have done as parents comes out instead.
Abby, when it came to her side of the family, Abby got results out of Andrew. Whether she simply advocated for her half-sister or "persuaded" Andrew as both Emma and Lizzie worded it, if my memory is correct - the end result is Lizzie was 4 and Emma about 14 when Abby became their step-mother.
They needed her to absolutely put her foot down and get modern plumbing and bathtubs throughout the house. Lizzie needed Abby to make sure she had the dignity and position within the house to have a private bedroom with a door of her own. Abby did none of these things successfully, if she did them at all, which I doubt. Yet, when it came to her half-sister, who was 2 years younger than Lizzie, Abby did treat her like a daughter. Abby did successfully advocate for Andrew to give her the dignity, security, and social position of a paid off house, not simply a bathtub or a private bedroom.
Not only that, but Abby kept it a secret. Andrew kept it a secret. I could be wrong, but that is for me, if I were Lizzie and Emma, that is the root cause of the severe break in trust, a rift that dollars couldn't heal, especially when the payoff was a house in constant need of repairs, where the rents collected barely paid for its upkeep - more of a "Let's show these spoiled brats what real work is required to accumulate money. Let them try to run a business and make a profit."
Andrew didn't simply give them a house, he gave them a challenge, a job, in managing that rental house on Ferry Street. It wasn't a gift so much as it was a life lesson, one which the daughters failed at.
I hope Camgarsky comes to the defense of Andrew and Abby. Every time I try to be fair-handed and objective about them, my subjective opinion on what I think they should have done as parents comes out instead.
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camgarsky4
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Re: "Miss Carrie Poole, mad"
For 'viewers', I wanted to provide additional context for a couple of the comments on this thread.
1. Per Lizzie's inquest testimony, over ten years prior, John Morse had mentioned to the Borden sisters that Andrew had a will. To our knowledge, Morse had not discussed Andrew's estate with the sisters in the prior couple of years. He might have or he might not have, we just don't know beyond speculating. The basis for speculation would be that if he talked 'out of school' 10 years ago, why wouldn't he do the same more recently.
2. We do not know if Andrew had a business office from which he worked, so he may have used his home for business discussions. We know that Jonathan Clegg visited the Borden home on Tuesday, August 2 to discuss his rental arrangement with Andrew. We also know the route Andrew took the morning of his death and nothing was identified as his office. If he had one, it seems that would have been either the destination or a stop by for any of his 'business' walks.
---------------------------------
Inspector -- I have interpreted Lizzie's comment as limited to referencing that a difference of opinion existed on whether it was appropriate for Andrew to have purchased Abby's step-mother's half of the duplex on Fourth St.
Not sure it makes any difference, but it would be interesting to know when the sisters became aware of the Fourth St. purchase. Andrew bought that property in March and he gave the sisters 12 Ferry in October. A six month delta means that the 'difference of opinion' took considerable time to resolve or the sisters only learned of the Fourth St. house months after the fact.
1887 was quite the year for Andrew and I'm guessing he acquiesced on 12 Ferry not because the girls bullied over him, but because their whining was a distraction when he had bigger fish to fry. It was 1887 when he acquired the land for and began brain storming what would become the A.J. Borden Building, which was the zenith of his accomplishments.
Ironically, March 1887 is when Lizzie was baptized into the Central Congregational Church and became active in church activities. I find it to be an intriguing insight into Lizzie's inner character that the same year she establishes her "Sunday School teacher" persona, she also turns spiteful towards her step-mother (essentially the only mother Lizzie ever knew) over a relatively minor amount of money, which in my opinion was absolutely none of her business. Thank you Emma.
Apparently the Central Congregational Church didn't teach the concept of forgiveness very well.
1. Per Lizzie's inquest testimony, over ten years prior, John Morse had mentioned to the Borden sisters that Andrew had a will. To our knowledge, Morse had not discussed Andrew's estate with the sisters in the prior couple of years. He might have or he might not have, we just don't know beyond speculating. The basis for speculation would be that if he talked 'out of school' 10 years ago, why wouldn't he do the same more recently.
2. We do not know if Andrew had a business office from which he worked, so he may have used his home for business discussions. We know that Jonathan Clegg visited the Borden home on Tuesday, August 2 to discuss his rental arrangement with Andrew. We also know the route Andrew took the morning of his death and nothing was identified as his office. If he had one, it seems that would have been either the destination or a stop by for any of his 'business' walks.
---------------------------------
Inspector -- I have interpreted Lizzie's comment as limited to referencing that a difference of opinion existed on whether it was appropriate for Andrew to have purchased Abby's step-mother's half of the duplex on Fourth St.
Not sure it makes any difference, but it would be interesting to know when the sisters became aware of the Fourth St. purchase. Andrew bought that property in March and he gave the sisters 12 Ferry in October. A six month delta means that the 'difference of opinion' took considerable time to resolve or the sisters only learned of the Fourth St. house months after the fact.
1887 was quite the year for Andrew and I'm guessing he acquiesced on 12 Ferry not because the girls bullied over him, but because their whining was a distraction when he had bigger fish to fry. It was 1887 when he acquired the land for and began brain storming what would become the A.J. Borden Building, which was the zenith of his accomplishments.
Ironically, March 1887 is when Lizzie was baptized into the Central Congregational Church and became active in church activities. I find it to be an intriguing insight into Lizzie's inner character that the same year she establishes her "Sunday School teacher" persona, she also turns spiteful towards her step-mother (essentially the only mother Lizzie ever knew) over a relatively minor amount of money, which in my opinion was absolutely none of her business. Thank you Emma.
Apparently the Central Congregational Church didn't teach the concept of forgiveness very well.
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Lorcan
- Posts: 195
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Re: "Miss Carrie Poole, mad"
As for the business office part, I was thinking the the offices of Charles Cook would have been the real estate office that Andrew would sign deals in or if Andrew happened to be at one of the banks he was an executive at, he might have a permanent desk or use an office to sign deals in privacy. I could be wrong and he just used his house.
Camgarsky, I think we were both writing our posts at the same time and you might not have seen the call for you to advocate for Andrew and Abby a couple of posts above.
Camgarsky, I think we were both writing our posts at the same time and you might not have seen the call for you to advocate for Andrew and Abby a couple of posts above.
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Lorcan
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Re: "Miss Carrie Poole, mad"
Camgarsky - excellent, you have distilled a stark pivot in the case. You and I see the same fact and interpret it in vastly different ways. Figuring out which way Lizzie interpreted it might give us a better idea of whether it is significant enough to have been the seed of a murder plot.
Camgarsky sees the Fourth Street situation as financial, and minor, I think, based on this: "She also turns spiteful towards her step-mother (essentially the only mother Lizzie ever knew) over a relatively minor amount of money, which in my opinion was absolutely none of her business."
In 2026, when women like Lizzie could simply leave home and get a job, I agree.
In 1892, in that social strata, I do not agree. The level of control over his daughters was profound, and with it, his obligations as a father, to me, go far beyond what they are today.
See my post a few posts above for my perspective on why I don't think Lizzie saw the Fourth Street house as a minor amount of money. I think the influence Abby had and the secrecy were seen as far more of a threat to Lizzie's future than a few thousand dollars. Abby was shown to have influence over Andrew and accomplished something for her own family that she never accomplished for Lizzie and Emma, and it was all done in secret. What else is she planning to do in secret? That fear of the unknown, that loss of influence and position in the house, that anger at the lack of control, or worse yet, Abby's control over her future - I think that was the seed.
Camgarsky sees the Fourth Street situation as financial, and minor, I think, based on this: "She also turns spiteful towards her step-mother (essentially the only mother Lizzie ever knew) over a relatively minor amount of money, which in my opinion was absolutely none of her business."
In 2026, when women like Lizzie could simply leave home and get a job, I agree.
In 1892, in that social strata, I do not agree. The level of control over his daughters was profound, and with it, his obligations as a father, to me, go far beyond what they are today.
See my post a few posts above for my perspective on why I don't think Lizzie saw the Fourth Street house as a minor amount of money. I think the influence Abby had and the secrecy were seen as far more of a threat to Lizzie's future than a few thousand dollars. Abby was shown to have influence over Andrew and accomplished something for her own family that she never accomplished for Lizzie and Emma, and it was all done in secret. What else is she planning to do in secret? That fear of the unknown, that loss of influence and position in the house, that anger at the lack of control, or worse yet, Abby's control over her future - I think that was the seed.
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Inspector
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Re: "Miss Carrie Poole, mad"
Many good points brought up by you two.
It is sad that so many even today claim the title “Christian” but only for social status, and notoriety.
Not saying this was Lizzie’s reason for her activities within her local church, but in many ways ecumenicalism, and entertainment have deceived the masses, and shed a bad shadow on our Savior, as the leaders drop the subjects that scripture demands, in the fear of offending the parishioners . Not saying Rev. Buck was guilty of Depraved Indifference (not warning someone of lethal danger), but it does seem to be popular among so many large churches today.
It is the biggest thing that bothers me about Lizzie, and the biggest thing that gives me hope for her innocence.
However —many claim to know Him, but by their deeds they deny Him. Titus 1:16
As we know, Satan was a murderer from the beginning, and the father of all lies.
I’ll hold up there.
I think what hurts Lizzie more than her own words in testimony about Abby, is the people who claimed that the relations in the house weren’t good, and tell of what she said.
Is this gossip or one’s duty to expose evil to the authorities?
I’ll choose the latter in pursuing the truth.
Knowlton in his CA thought it evil that Lizzie would fret over the gift to Abby’s half sister—I suppose in relation to what it presumably led to.
I’m thinking there’s a good chance that either Emma in her letters to JVM, or Lizzie/Emma overhearing something about the will has a part in all of this.
Lizzie made the comment at Inquest that she didn’t know there was such an age difference between her father and Abby, but it’s something that I ponder,
Young women have a way of knowing things, especially about other women. Of coarse not knowing the age difference can only look better on Lizzie than if she knew, if there were concerns about the will.
I found it interesting in Lizzie’s Inquest that when the second day resumed , she gives testimony as if she’s gone home and prepared for the note story as being part of her and Abby’s only discussions in the dining room Thursday morning.
Although, previously she is asked the same question twice:
“Had you any knowledge of her going out of the house?”
A—“”No sir”
Same question repeated again
A—-“She told me she had a note “
Knowlton had pressed her to explain her whereabouts from
9-11Am and it’s as though she was cornered.
It is sad that so many even today claim the title “Christian” but only for social status, and notoriety.
Not saying this was Lizzie’s reason for her activities within her local church, but in many ways ecumenicalism, and entertainment have deceived the masses, and shed a bad shadow on our Savior, as the leaders drop the subjects that scripture demands, in the fear of offending the parishioners . Not saying Rev. Buck was guilty of Depraved Indifference (not warning someone of lethal danger), but it does seem to be popular among so many large churches today.
It is the biggest thing that bothers me about Lizzie, and the biggest thing that gives me hope for her innocence.
However —many claim to know Him, but by their deeds they deny Him. Titus 1:16
As we know, Satan was a murderer from the beginning, and the father of all lies.
I’ll hold up there.
I think what hurts Lizzie more than her own words in testimony about Abby, is the people who claimed that the relations in the house weren’t good, and tell of what she said.
Is this gossip or one’s duty to expose evil to the authorities?
I’ll choose the latter in pursuing the truth.
Knowlton in his CA thought it evil that Lizzie would fret over the gift to Abby’s half sister—I suppose in relation to what it presumably led to.
I’m thinking there’s a good chance that either Emma in her letters to JVM, or Lizzie/Emma overhearing something about the will has a part in all of this.
Lizzie made the comment at Inquest that she didn’t know there was such an age difference between her father and Abby, but it’s something that I ponder,
Young women have a way of knowing things, especially about other women. Of coarse not knowing the age difference can only look better on Lizzie than if she knew, if there were concerns about the will.
I found it interesting in Lizzie’s Inquest that when the second day resumed , she gives testimony as if she’s gone home and prepared for the note story as being part of her and Abby’s only discussions in the dining room Thursday morning.
Although, previously she is asked the same question twice:
“Had you any knowledge of her going out of the house?”
A—“”No sir”
Same question repeated again
A—-“She told me she had a note “
Knowlton had pressed her to explain her whereabouts from
9-11Am and it’s as though she was cornered.
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camgarsky4
- Posts: 1814
- Joined: Sat Aug 01, 2020 8:05 pm
- Real Name: George Schuster
Re: "Miss Carrie Poole, mad"
I've pretty much said my piece on this issue.
It is wrong to assign blame to a victim who did not pose any physical harm to the murderer or anyone else. In this particular case, the assailant should have been grateful for a lifetime of security and care, but instead greed and selfishness ruled the day.
It is wrong to assign blame to a victim who did not pose any physical harm to the murderer or anyone else. In this particular case, the assailant should have been grateful for a lifetime of security and care, but instead greed and selfishness ruled the day.
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TeenaBee
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- Real Name: Teena Booth
Re: "Miss Carrie Poole, mad"
Hey, I am really glad I clicked on this thread, learned something I didn't know about the inhabitants of the Pool house, I had not stumbled across any of that before, so thank you, most interesting! I have always wondered about the comment from Nancy Pool about the little boy, and Frank's pills, and Lizzie picking them up, I had no context to understand. And somehow I never connected Lizzie picking up pills as being related the visits to the New Bedford pharmacy that the prosecution teased before the prussic acid issue was set aside. So wow, good to know, especially for those of us on the "maybe she was innocent" side of the fence.
Becuase of course we don't know what those New Bedford pharamacists were going to say if they took the stand --- one reason I really really wish all that had not been ruled inadmissible, because now the mystery remains for us to interpet how we like. Could it be that those men would be put on the stand following Bence & Co. to say she had been there (to pick up Frank's pills) and the story could be spun to IMPLY she was on a hunt for prussic acid? I personally think Knowlton was a master of taking small molehills of fact (she didn't like Abby) and building them into speculative mountains that sound terrible for Lizzie (she hated Abby so much she took a hatchet to her head).
One reason I question whether the New Bedford druggists had powerful evidence against Lizzie is because I have read in newspaper accounts that Hilliard was talking to at least one of them as early as a few weeks after the murders, and yet there is no news stories later that I know of about explosive information from them other than them being mentioned in witness list for grand jury appearance. It would seem to me that if Lizzie had truly and really asked any other pharmacist anywhere specifically for prussic acid, it would have made big headline news just as it did when Eli Bence made that claim. As the pharmacists names were available for months, I would think reporters would be scurrying over the New Bedford to try to nail that down. So I have always mildly suspected the New Bedford guys would not have much to offer on the stand, but now I lean even more that way knowing that Lizzie may have had a completely innocent reason to show her face at a New Bedford pharmacy -- to pick up pills for Frank!
Becuase of course we don't know what those New Bedford pharamacists were going to say if they took the stand --- one reason I really really wish all that had not been ruled inadmissible, because now the mystery remains for us to interpet how we like. Could it be that those men would be put on the stand following Bence & Co. to say she had been there (to pick up Frank's pills) and the story could be spun to IMPLY she was on a hunt for prussic acid? I personally think Knowlton was a master of taking small molehills of fact (she didn't like Abby) and building them into speculative mountains that sound terrible for Lizzie (she hated Abby so much she took a hatchet to her head).
One reason I question whether the New Bedford druggists had powerful evidence against Lizzie is because I have read in newspaper accounts that Hilliard was talking to at least one of them as early as a few weeks after the murders, and yet there is no news stories later that I know of about explosive information from them other than them being mentioned in witness list for grand jury appearance. It would seem to me that if Lizzie had truly and really asked any other pharmacist anywhere specifically for prussic acid, it would have made big headline news just as it did when Eli Bence made that claim. As the pharmacists names were available for months, I would think reporters would be scurrying over the New Bedford to try to nail that down. So I have always mildly suspected the New Bedford guys would not have much to offer on the stand, but now I lean even more that way knowing that Lizzie may have had a completely innocent reason to show her face at a New Bedford pharmacy -- to pick up pills for Frank!
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camgarsky4
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Re: "Miss Carrie Poole, mad"
Knowlton had both NB pharmacists summoned to testify. Doesn't seem like he would have done that if they had nothing to contribute to the prosecutions case.
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camgarsky4
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Re: "Miss Carrie Poole, mad"
Bence, et al. made their Prussic Acid claims within 24 hours of the murders, when most of the nation suspected a mad man had done the killing. Their reports brought the possibility of Lizzie's guilt into national awareness. By the time Church and Wright had surfaced, weeks had passed, Lizzie had been arrested and the Preliminary Hearing held, with the judge finding Lizzie 'probably guilty'. So it would make sense that 'repeat' evidence would not as big a deal to the journalism world as the initial, dramatic Prussic Acid reveal by the Bence boys.
Knowlton Papers Pages 182-184 contain Hosea Knowlton's list of witnesses he plans to call and what 'subjects' they will be testifying upon.
On page 183, New Bedford pharmacists Wright and Church are listed along with Bence, Kilroy & Hart to testify regarding "Buying Prussic Acid".
I find the article below interesting from a couple perspectives.
Rebello page 81
Boston Herald, August 8, 1892. Page 2.
"It was claimed Lizzie made a second attempt to purchase prussic acid at Walter J. Brow's Drug Store at 62 Second Street. A Boston Herald reporter
interviewed Mr. Brow to verify the rumor. Mr. Brow said Lizzie traded at his store and had known Lizzie for the past twenty years. He assured the
reporter Lizzie did not purchase any prussic acid., He recalled that Lizzie stopped trading at his store about four years ago. Her last purchase was
chloroform, stating she wanted it for the purpose of killing a cat. Mr. Brow states Miss Borden asked for the stuff in rather a surly manner, and
he answered just as saucily. Miss Borden paid for the chloroform and went out. She has never been in the shop since."
Knowlton Papers Pages 182-184 contain Hosea Knowlton's list of witnesses he plans to call and what 'subjects' they will be testifying upon.
On page 183, New Bedford pharmacists Wright and Church are listed along with Bence, Kilroy & Hart to testify regarding "Buying Prussic Acid".
I find the article below interesting from a couple perspectives.
Rebello page 81
Boston Herald, August 8, 1892. Page 2.
"It was claimed Lizzie made a second attempt to purchase prussic acid at Walter J. Brow's Drug Store at 62 Second Street. A Boston Herald reporter
interviewed Mr. Brow to verify the rumor. Mr. Brow said Lizzie traded at his store and had known Lizzie for the past twenty years. He assured the
reporter Lizzie did not purchase any prussic acid., He recalled that Lizzie stopped trading at his store about four years ago. Her last purchase was
chloroform, stating she wanted it for the purpose of killing a cat. Mr. Brow states Miss Borden asked for the stuff in rather a surly manner, and
he answered just as saucily. Miss Borden paid for the chloroform and went out. She has never been in the shop since."