Harrington, and Medley

[Inspector]

Being early to the scene, and observing keenly, I would presume their observations are some of the very closest we can get to actually being there ourselves.
I find Harrington’s comments on Lizzie’s demeanor very interesting,
He is surprisingly taken aback with Lizzie and her lack of grief, emotions, or concern for catching the criminal, no agitation, no lamentation of the heart. or comments of the horror of the crimes.
Harrington seems to hold short of his true feelings yet calls them “most revolting”, then describes it as simply “I thought,at least, she knew more than she wished to tell.”
Is Lizzie not telling all a proper description of “something that, to me, is indescribable”, and “gave birth to a thought that was most revolting.”
I think not.

As for Medley, he sounds very suspicious about the bloody rags. I sound like a broken record, but Lizzie needed a medical Doctor immediately after the crimes to secure the menstrual blood alibi.
Bowen didn’t find the pail in the cellar. Lizzie told him about it, probably immediately after he arrived, because Medley was one of the earliest to arrive, The information about the bloody rags was unsolicited, rather, Lizzie offered it up to Dr Bowen.
Of coarse Lizzie said the pail was there 3-4 days, but Bridget said it couldn’t have been there 2 days, or she would have seen it and washed them.
I think the more we look at the earliest information of the case, the closer we get to what happened on August 4.
There appears to be a simplicity at the beginning from the officers, an honest questioning of those involved, and a sincere effort to find out.
It appears the consensus pointed at Lizzie.

[camgarsky4]

Agree with everything you posted.

[TeenaBee]

Hm, interesting. So often we hear one can't judge whether one's demeanor is reasonable after a traumatic event, and yet even the people who say that (such as Knowlton in his closing) then immediately turn around and judge Lizzie's demeanor. I have some sympathy for her, I acted in such an unexpected way (even to myself) after discovering my mother's dead body that the police I called, who were probably not so different than Harrington and Medley, kept me there for hours questioning me and watching me suspiciously.

I also have sympathy for her because as someone who has lived with autistic people all my life (my father, my husband, my oldest child), I am always having to defend their seemingly illogical demeanor and "flat effect" to others. I do suspect Lizzie may have been on the autism spectrum (something others have wondered a few times on this board). But of course that doesn't mean she wasn't guilty. Just saying there could be reasons other than guilt for the demeanor that so spooked Harrington, and eventually just about everyone who spent time observing Lizzie. Newspapers report that even members of her own family found her demeanor odd long before the murders

[camgarsky4]

Teenabee -- I can't imagine finding my mom's dead body. So sorry you experienced that, and then to have police treat you suspiciously while you processed that your mother was gone must have been surreal and nightmarish.

I've never given much weight to how she acted after folks starting flooding the house....police, reporters, friends, doctors, the curious....
But what does make me wonder is her failure to leave the house and her relatively 'restrained' summoning of Bridget. She was the last person to see her father around 10:55, went out to the barn (per Lizzie) and came back in 10-15 minutes later to discover her father. She would have been acutely aware that it was good odds the murderer was in the house in close proximity to herself.

Assuming she was concerned about Bridget's safety, I would think she would have yelled up to Bridget something more like..."Maggie, are you up there? Are you ok? Someone has killed my dad! Hurry down and get out of the house!". Instead it was more like she summoned Bridget down.

Regardless, her behaviors aren't evidence....just a circumstantial influencer. If there wasn't a bevy of other circumstantial evidence against Lizzie, I doubt we would be talking about her behavior and reaction.

[TeenaBee]

Hi camgarsky - I do agree the circumstantial flow of the river toward guilt (using Knowlton's metaphor) is very strong. Almost drowns a person ha. Although I do think a lot of times the circumstance is in the eye of the beholder though, depending on one's own experiences. Like mine. I sometimes cringe at my own biases. But I am always trying to "think like a jury member" and look at both sides presented to me. And to remember the legal presumption of innocence....

So it does seem weird on the outside looking in that Lizzie called for Bridget the way she did. I never thought about your excellent point of why didn't she ask if Bridget was okay, she just somehow assumed she was okay . Yet, she was immediately predicting to Mrs. Churchill that Abby could be killed, too. (there goes another chip into the flow of guilt!) But I have wondered why she didn't call for Abby if she thought she'd heard her come in -- which I would assume, if true, she heard before she went out to the barn as she told Mrs. Churchill about it fromt he first. I know when I found my mother's body, I didn't call the police first, I called my sister, I don't know why, I wasn't forming rational thoughts. I would guess perhaps all Lizzie was thinking is that she needed a doctor for her father, and Bridget, not Abby, would be the natural one to do that, hence the summoning.

[camgarsky4]

Teen -- since you've brought forward your experience of finding your mother, I'm going to ask couple questions...but please just say "I'd rather not discuss' and that'll be that.

When you found your mom, was it possible an assailant might be present?

[TeenaBee]

I think its fair to ask questions when someone uses their own experiences to illustrate their opinion. I found my mother lying on her bed, and her face was covered with blood so that I could not recognize her (just like Andrew), and her fists were curled up strangely like Andrew. So that emotional wallop and terrible image is there for me. For a minute I did feel a spike of fear, such a violent thing. But mostly no, I did not expect there was an assailant in the house. She had killed herself. She had tried in the past, so I knew it was almost certainly not murder. But the police didn't know that until they investigated for those few hours until the medical examiner came and ruled it suicide.
During that time, me and my two sisters had very different emotional reactions. One sister just sat on the floor and cried and refused to look into the room. Another sister went into the room and put her hand on my mother as a way of saying goodbye I suppose. This upset me unaccountably and I stood in the doorway and yelled at her to get out of there. Mostly though I made gallows humor jokes and laughed inappropriately, which made the police question me the way they did. I remember laughing straight at one officer's question and saying, "You think I killed her!" Anyway, one dead mom, three sisters, three different demeanors. It was very disorienting, I can't imagine how much more disorienting and adrenaline-fueled and confusing it might be if we thought it had been murder. It does color how I look at Lizzie though, and I admit it.

[Inspector]

TeenaBee, I’m so sorry to hear about your mom, I can’t imagine what you must have gone through. I’m glad you were strong and stood up for yourself with the police questioning.
Your thoughts on the Borden case are valuable, and we all have certain biases, but that’s how we see some things more clearly than others, and of course sometimes prevents.
If I ever come across as flat out judging the guilt of Lizzie or anyone in the case, I do apologize, and can say that’s the furthest from my intent.
I know we all want to find the truth, even though it is possibly unreasonable to believe it possible, so we keep grasping for something we think everyone else must have missed.
Personally, I try to look for that gold nugget of evidence while considering all that I can retain from others like yourself, hoping all our presumption, and unique biases will somehow lead to the truth.
If. the case is ever truly solved on this side of eternity, it will be a tremendous group effort of truth seekers.
For me personally, it’s hard to not suspect Lizzie as being involved after researching for several years.
I believe the known facts of the case have to be considered as pointing towards Lizzie, but I’ve always hoped she would someday squash all my suspicions, and shred all the known facts.
I truly do want her to be innocent.

[TeenaBee]

I hear you, Inspector, I didn't think you sounded judge-y. I really related to what you just said, "we keep grasping for something we think everyone else must have misssed....Looking for that gold nugget of eivdence." Every time I come across something new it can tilt me in a new direction one way or the other. I have spent years tilted toward guilt, but then I start feeling too locked in that perspective, or become haunted by the question, What if she was actually innocent? And so I try to look at it from the other direction. I think the puzzle pieces are mostly there, it's just about turning the thing round and round and looking at it from different angles until a more compelling picture emerges. Reminds me of those old drawings of an optical illusion, where it looks like an old woman at first but all the sudden you can see the swan...

[TeenaBee]

But back to Harrington and Medley, what you said, this: "I would presume their observations are some of the very closest we can get to actually being there ourselves." There is truth in that, but I also think that police look at things from a very narrow perspective. They were encountering Lizzie, a woman they didn't know, a woman presumably in shock, and comparing her demeanor to their expectation of how they thought "generic Victorian-era woman" should act, not what might be what people who actually knew her might have expected her to act. It is interesting to me that almost no one who actually knew Lizzie and were familiar with her daily demeanor believed her guilty (well, except Hiram Harrington), while the ones who believed her guilty were people who didn't know her. I seem to recall an interview with her friend Mary Brigham who told a reporter that Lizzie had been acting just as she would have expected. I know familiarity can fool people -- Wow, that Ted Bundy seemed like such a nice guy! But I'm talking about judging Lizzie's demeanor as suspicious just as Officers Harrington and Medley clearly did. I would guess Ted Bundy fooled people because his demeanor after a killing was nothing suspicious at all.

[Inspector]

TeenaBee you bring up some good points, and it’s hard to always stay on the unbiased, neutral line with Lizzie (at least for me) when I consider all the known facts .
I wish there were more evidence in the case, but I feel the cleanup was thoroughly pre planned by someone in the house (known or unknown) who had the time to clean any trails .
Probably what drives my bias is a culmination of discrepancies in testimony with some known facts that are strong in certain directions.

[camgarsky4]

Teen -- not sure if this relates directly to what your stating, but more than just the police had less than positive views of Lizzie and her personality and behavior. We know how she and the Gray's got along and how they viewed each other. Three of her closest friends, Alice Russell, Elizabeth Johnston and Anna Borden, all considered her guilty as early as December, 1892.

A few years ago, Kat posted the following extract from the Knowlton Papers. The prosecution was exploring charging whether Lizzie should be considered insane when she committed the murders and they interviewed the folks below. Some interesting commentary.

=======================================
The Commonwealth of Massachusetts vs. Lizzie A. Borden, The Knowlton Papers, 1892-1893, Michael Martins & Dennis Binette, Editors.
“HK102
Report, handwritten in ink.
November 24, 1892
H. A. Knowlton District Atty.
New Bedford, Mass.
Sir,
I have interviewed the following named persons in reference to the rela-
tives of Lizzie Borden who said as follows:

Capt. James C. Stafford North St. New Bedford.
I use to know quite well the mother of Lizzie Borden, her name was Sarah
Morse. She had a sister and brothers. John now in Fall River, another brother who is a Blacksmith and is now out West. Mrs. Morse the mother of Lizzie Bordon was a very peculiar woman. She had a Very bad temper. She was very strong in her likes and dislikes. I never knew or heard of any of the Morses or Bordons was ever Insane or anything like it. I use to live in Fall River and always knew the Bordens and the Morses. Mrs Gray who lives on this St. may tell you something aboute them, also a Mrs Almy who lives on Franklin St, Fall River.

Mrs. - Holland Daughter of Mrs. Gray Resides on North St. New Bedford. Same house with Mrs. Gray. I never heard my mother say that Lizzie Bordon her mother or any of the Morses is or ever was Insane or anything like it. I always have heard that they were somewhat peculiar and odd. I have heard my mother talk considerable about Bordens and the Morses but never heard her say that any of them were Insane.

Abraham G. Hart Cashier Savings bank Fall River. I have live here most all my life. I never knew much aboute Lizzie Borden or her mother. I never knew much about the brothers of Lizzie Bordens mother. Always known of them. I never heard that any of the Morses or Bordens was ever Insane.

S. H. Miller 93 Second St. Fall River opp. the Bordon House. I have lived in Fall River 64 years. Bordon use to work for me. I know the Bordons and all of the Morses. the father of Lizzies mother was Anthony Morse. I use to know his two brothers. Know the brothers of Mrs. Morse, Lizzies mother. One is now supposed to be out West. I never knew or never heard that any of the Morses is or was Insane. Know they were somewhat peculiar. Anthony Morse had two brothers George and Gardiner Morse. I was not a witness at the trial. I did not intend to be. I saw Mr. Borden a little while before the murder. Bridget, the Servant girl came running into my house and said both was dead just then a man was passing I called him and told Bridget to tell him what she told me. She did and that man was a witness. I did not want anything to do with it and I did not go near the house.

Rescom Case 199 Second St. Fall River. I have lived in Fall River 57 years and I know all the Bordens and the Morses well. A sister of Mrs. Morse (Lizzies mother, married his cousin, a man named Morse, they now live here in Fall River. I use to know Anthony, father of Lizzies mother. He has a brother now living in Warren Mass. the woman that was murdered use to visit my house often, but she use to keep her affairs to herself pretty well, but I assure you I have my opinion of Lizzie Borden and I hope they will get more evidence. My wife dont know any more than I do aboute the Bordons or Morses. We never heard that anyone of them is or ever was Insane but I think some of them worse than Insane.

Nov. 26.
John S. Brayton Fall River. I have lived here great meny years. I know the Morses Mother of Lizzie Borden was Sarah, her father was Anthony Morse. I think her sister is dead. Anthony Morse was a farmer, after he owned a milk route. I never heard of anyone of them as being Insane or having any streak of Insanity.

D. S. Brigam Ex. City Marshal of Fall River I use to know the Morses never heard of any of them as being Insane, but this girl Lizzie Borden is known by a number of people here to be a woman of a bad disposition if they tell what they know.

Geo. A. Patty [sic], Fall River I did not know much aboute the history of the Morses but never heard that any of them is or was ever Insane but Lizzie is known to be ugly.

Mrs. Geo. W. Whitehead 45 4th St. Fall River Sister of Mrs. Borden who was murdered never heard that any of the Morses was Insane but ugly. Since the murder people have said if she is guilty she must be Insane.

Mrs. William Almy Franklin St. Fall River Always known the Bordens and the Morses, but for several years I have not known much aboute any of them. Some 30 years ago my husband who is now dead was in company with Mr Bordon. I use to know the brother of Mrs. Morse (Lizzies Mother) also her sister. I think there was 4 brothers. I have never heard that there was ever any Insanity or anything like it among any of the Morses.

Chester W. Green 80 years old lives in Fall River and have for 40 years. I know the Bordens and the Morses but I dont know much aboute. Never heard as any of them was ever Insane or anything like it.

William Carr lived in Fall River for 40 years I know the Bordons better then I know the Morses. The Bordons are peculiar people but I never heard that any of the Bordons or the Morses is or was ever Insane.

[Inspector]

Wow. not to intrude, but Rescom Case, and S H Miller really got my attention. I find this very interesting.

[TeenaBee]

Hi Camgarsky! You always bring such great info to the conversation, and make such good points, and I thank you! I am curious about why you say those three women, Alice Russell and Anna Borden and Elizabeth Johnston believed Lizzie guilty. I have read that both Alice Russell and Elizabeth Johnston no longer associated with Lizzie after Alice Russell decided to "tell all" about the dress burning, but is there some definite source they stopped talking to her/visiting her because they truly believed her guilty? Or could it have been because the Borden sisters no longer felt supported by them because they were cooperating with the prosecution and Lizzie herself wanted to see the friendship end? Or could it have been some version of the friendship simply couldn't withstand all the pressure of the dramatic events and it was a mutual decision to part ways? I really do not know. Maybe there are newspaper interviews in which any of those three women you mentioned said they believed her guilty, but I have not run across them as of yet. I'm still plodding through my books of those, might take another year or two!

As for the opinions of others you posted, yes I know numerous people reported Lizzie as being peculiar and odd and having a bad disposition, that was sort of my point, that she was noted to have a mystifying "coolness" and lack of emotion to her demeanor even before the murders, so it might not be fair to judge that same kind of demeanor after the murders as a sign of guilt. Again, I will say I think Lizzie could have been on the autism spectrum and that might be why she struck so many "neurotypical" people as odd and lacking in appropriate emotion -- an oddness later observers seem to interpret as having a potentil killer lurking inside her just waiting to get out. I can see a number of good enough reasons to think her guilty, but her demeanor and police officer's interpretation of it is not one of those reasons for me.

[camgarsky4]

Elizabeth and Alice, please see below.
You might be able to find rest of the lengthy article online or via the FRHS website.

click on image to enlarge

Screenshot 2026-01-25 152718.png

Anna Borden was called to the stand to testify against Lizzie, but her testimony was excluded. The only way prosecution would have known Anna had something negative to say about Lizzie is if she had informed them that was the case.

[TeenaBee]

Thanks so much for this! I couldn't find it on the Fall River Historical Society site, but I did find it (most of it I think) on their Facebook page, as an excerpt from Parallel Lives. Very interesting. But still inconclusive to me as it seems speculative about why the ladies who were once so devoted to Lizzie stopped going to see her. There is this line from the article: "Neither [Miss Russell or MIss Johnston] would talk but it appeared as though, no longer convinced of her innocence they regarded her as possibly, if not probably, guilty.” Maybe that is true. At least it "appeared" to be true. It seems curious, though, that Alice Russell, the one who saw the dress burning and kept it quiet for four months,continuing to visit Lizzie, then just suddenly, after first appearance before the grand jury, changed her mind about Lizzie being guilty? It seems just as likely to me that when Alice gave fuel to the prosecution that Lizzie may have felt betrayed, or further sunk anyway, and thus ended the relationship herself, thinking Alice was no longer safe to trust. Who knows? I did find this though in Radin's book:

"Alice Russell [was] probably the most damaging witness against lizzie. Yet, after her testimony, she told a reporter for the Fall River Evening News that, “Neither by anything I heard in the Borden house before or after the murders was I ever made to believe that Lizzie committed the murders. I don’t believe in her guilt now.”

I have not found that particular article from which the Russell quote supposedly came, and no date is given (but it seems it would have been in June 1893), so cannot verify it as of yet, and I know Radin was biased toward Lizzie's innocence... But still interesting. Those tight-lipped New Englanders were a little maddening with the way they kept their opinions to themselves. So unlike our own era!

[camgarsky4]

The Alice Russel quote is 'news' to me. I ignore all the 'novels' unless they give specific sources. The combination of Lincoln, Brown, Radin & Spiering have created almost all the myths that have confounded and mislead folks interested in the Borden case for decades.

If you choose to research Charles Holmes, I think you might change your mind on how much credence to give him. He basically lived in the same household as Elizabeth. Its not hard to know where someone's feelings lie about other people.

[TeenaBee]

Thanks for this,camgarsky, I will definitely do some researching on Charles Holmes. I don't doubt that many people got the feeling that Alice Rusell and Elizabeth Johnston probably thought Lizzie guilty. That quote from Alice Russell said to have come from the Fall River Evening News that I said I found in Radin, I went looking through my marked up Radin book and didn't find it again, at least not yet, it's possible I am confusing the source of the quote I copied into my Lizzie notebook, I think Masterson is the only other author I have read other than Radin and Brown that argues for Lizzie's innocence, so maybe that's where I copied it from. I will be more careful when attributing something to an author if I am not certain. I very much appreciate how you are able to attach your sources inside your posts, many of your posts over the last few years have gone into my Lizzie notebook too!

I do agree with you on Lincoln and Brown and Spiering and their mythmaking. They are maddenign to me. I have a different take on Radin, though, I think he sticks closer to actual transcripts and other documentation such as was available in his time (1961), rather than heavy speculation and just plain making stuff up like the others. He makes a few glaring errors, like a belief he apparently gleaned from newspapers that there was big search of the house on Friday the day after the murders. And I don't put too much stock in his "opinion" that Bridget was a more likely suspect than Lizzie.

People often say that Radin overtly accuses Bridget of being the killer, but that's not what I got from him, he presented a case against the known others with potential opportunity (Morse, Emma) and believed that out of all of them, Bridget should have been the most likely one to be suspected and should have been more thoroughly investigated. He pointed out that Bridget's story was problematic in some ways, for example, contradicting John Morse's version on certain details, and I found value in looking more carefully at Bridget's testimony and how it evolved. Radin got me asking a question I'd never thought to ask: Why do we assume Bridget's version and timeline of the murder morning is absolutely accurate? Isn't it possible she could have misremembered the order of a few things? Like when she was told by Abby to wash the windows (as per Morse). Not because she was lying, but just because she was human? In the same vein, why do we assume that where Lizzie's inquest version of the morning differed from Bridget's that Lizzie must necessarily be lying, rather than perhaps just remembering it differently?

Anyway, I am fond of Radin's book because it was the first I read to make Lizzie's innocence seem actually plausible, and offered me a different way of looking at the case that I found refreshing when the vast majority of other accounts are arguments for guilt.