Morse and Lizzie

[Inspector]

Morse’s mention of the Nathan murders in the 1880’s which were hatchet murders, and mentioning they were never caught, still stands out to me. With Morse’s butchering experience, could the two scenes at the Borden house be so spotless due to experience in how to hide blood?
Is there a chance the apron was provided by Morse, if it was used in the Borden murders?
Did he possibly coach the killer, whoever it was?

[camgarsky4]

The Borden lady folk had aprons....why the need to borrow one?

Not sure there would be an anti-blood splatter technique when striking someone's face and back of skull 10 and 18 times. Do butchers worry about blood splatter?

[Inspector]

They had aprons, but butchers do as well. It’s the apron count that can’t be confirmed . It’s not the spatter I was pointing out, rather the clean up.

[camgarsky4]

The newspaper article which 'told' us that Morse had been a butcher, mentions this occupation was decades earlier, before he moved west. To our knowledge, Morse was a farmer, possibly specializing in raising horses while he lived in Iowa.

Per the book 'Knowlton-Pearson Correspondence', page 18, Benjamin Nathan was beaten to death with an iron bar.

[Inspector]

Benjamin Nathan wasn’t killed during the day, nor with a hatchet, so I assumed Morse was thinking of the Nathan Elgin murders which were out west in Texas.

[camgarsky4]

If Morse or Bridget were directly involved (actually swung the hatchet) in the attacks on Abby & Andrew, can we come up with a plausible scenario in which Lizzie wouldn't have been aware?

I've tried, but so far striking out.

[Inspector]

Possibly with Andrew, but Abby’s death changes everything.
The time gap between the killings tells its own story.
I suppose we can come up with a scenario that works, but the odds against a stranger being responsible without being noticed , are as high as Lizzie not being aware of whoever it was, especially Morse or Bridget.

IF Lizzie did try to get Bridget out of the house, it would be for the 2nd time. The 1st took care of itself because of window washing.
If the sale at Sargents suggestion was made to Bridget. It points to her innocence as well. Lizzie wanted her away once more.
So.., it would have to be JVM , and Lizzie.
My theory wouldn’t be well regarded by yourself, but I can visualize Abby’s death being easy enough by Morse/Lizzie, and then Morse hiding in the barn after Weybosset , awaiting Lizzie’s—all clear, to kill Andrew.
Once again, if Bridget really did go upstairs for 15 minutes before Andrews death, it suggests her innocence, because there’s no reason for the story unless it’s true.
It doesn’t help Lizzie.
If the two girls were working together they could have easily went to Sargents, been noticed and came back. They could have said we both were in the barn for that matter.
Possibly Lizzie tried to get Bridget to leave with her for Sargents. then Morse could slip in after Weybosset.

[camgarsky4]

Not saying Morse or Bridget weren't physically involved, just that no one has come up with a scenario that does not require a broader, and less believable, conspiracy.

To suspect Morse of physically killing Abby or Andrew means impeaching Lydia Emery and her niece. It would also mean that Mrs. Kingsley (Emery neighbor) and the street car conductor who saw the priests at 11:22 a.m. were both mistaken or lying. How did Morse know about the 6 priests if he wasn't on that street car?

Lastly, don't forget Mr. Clark of the street department and his letter to Attorney Phillips about encountering Morse August 4 on Morse's way to Weybosset.

Those are all direct sightings.

Also a question to ponder....how would Morse know when to be back at the house? We don't know what Andrew's normal time to get back home was, except before noon for the meal. We know he was feeling under the weather and, per Mr.'s Shortsleeve's and Mather, he was heading somewhere on the west side So. Main Street, but changed his mind and went directly home. I figure that change of mind was due to feeling poorly.

He also chose not to stop by the Borden Building, which again suggests he took a shortened version of his normal 'downtown tour.'. Neither Morse, Lizzie or Bridget would know that would be the case.

My general point is that these people didn't have cell phones or pagers.....everything had to be pre-arranged and that required excellent predictive skills.

[camgarsky4]

I find it much more 'plausible' that Emma asked Morse to visit the Borden's because of what must have been a clear heightening of tension in the household. That is why Morse brought the letter from AJB with him.....to remind AJB himself that is why he dropped in on them.

[Inspector]

Good points about why Morse had the letter in his pocket at the trial. Yes Clark said he saw Morse, but my theory doesn’t have any direct bearing on the Emery’s in regards to Abby, but I agree it has a hurdle when it comes to Andrew. If Lizzie let Morse back in the house after he said goodbye to Andrew—regardless of Bridget’s knowledge or lack of, I see an easy window to kill Abby.
Then Clark would see him on his way to the Emery’s.
The problem with much in this case, is the foundation layed by Lizzie, Bridget, and Morse.
I think Bridget figured it out fairly early.

[camgarsky4]

Sorry, not tracking. What did Bridget figure out "fairly early"?

Following up on your working theory....was it unlucky for Abby that she was up in the guest room as Morse was let back in the front door by Lizzie? Assuming John knew that Abby was in the guest room as he left the side door, what would the conspirators (Lizzie & John) have done if Abby had come back downstairs by the time Morse was let back in the house? Was it prearranged that when Lizzie heard John leave, Lizzie knew to go down and open the front door?

Bridget testified that she heard Abby and Lizzie speaking civilly just prior to Lizzie coming into the kitchen that morning. That would have been after Morse left the house. Per Lizzie's inquest testimony, AJB was reading in the sitting room as she came downstairs and presumably as she encountered Abby for their brief chat.

Trying to work thru the likely people movements if Morse had reentered the house with the intent to dispatch Abby.

[Inspector]

I’m thinking Bridget started having serious doubts about Lizzie’s innocence very early in the investigation, possibly when Lizzie suggested hearing Abby return. Bridget knew at this moment that Lizzie knew where Abby was because she refused to go upstairs alone, and Bridget had ears to hear someone’s return as well. Assuming Bridget was innocent, her common sense would have put things together quickly, while observing Lizzie’s speech and demeanor. Such as the bloody rags, the note, can’t be left alone in the house (although she made Bridget leave her in the house alone,laughing at the top of the stairs etc…
My only concern is why did Bridget continue upstairs and into the room where Abby lay, and did so alone?
Apparently Lizzie “heard “ Abby enter the front door—I can’t recall if Abby had a key or entered the front door whenever she returned on normal occasions, but it seems a bit odd nonetheless unless she had a habit different from the others.

I haven’t given much thought to the movements after John slipped back in, or if it was possibly the cellar door, where he could hide until Bridget went outside to wash. He was aware of Bridget’s work order.
Lizzie was certainly able to easily let him know when to come up from the cellar.
The front door makes less sense the more I think about it though, because he’d have to have an excuse to pittle around while Andrew was still there.
It is quite possible this was the case, but the cellar seems safer, and avoids the public street.
It seems both Andrew and Bridget used the side door on their returns from being out,as well as Mr Morse.
I don’t see much reason for Abby to use the front door on her returns, just my opinion.

Do you know if the property has ever been metal detected?

[camgarsky4]

Don't know if anyone has searched the house with a metal detector. Seems like it would be difficult because of nails, flue inserts, possibly piping, etc. Much of the house has been remodeled to enable modern wiring, ductwork and plumbing.

That said, I'll see if I can find out.

Are you thinking Morse had unlocked the cellar exterior door before he left that morning? Lizzie didn't go down into the cellar until 10-15 minutes after Bridget estimates Morse left the house. Also, Bridget testified that pretty much the entire morning (prior to Morse and AJB leaving) she was in the kitchen, dining room and back hallway. She said she first saw Morse at the breakfast table in the dining room and doesn't mention him pass thru and going down the cellar stairs. I suppose he still could have and she just didn't mention it, even though that seems like something she would have mentioned.

Asking all the questions to see if I can get my head around what you are working through.

[Inspector]

I was concerned about metal detecting the yard.
Just maybe someone concerned about the weapon buried it quickly, and covered it up.
Could still be found today,

My thought is that Lizzie made sure the cellar door was unlocked the night before Aug 4th.
She wouldn’t need to come down before John left that morning.
She actually brought the subject up again Friday morning to Bridget, strangely.
Possibly, a mindless attempt to distance herself from the cellar door, if in fact she knew it was left unlocked for her accomplice .
It could just as easily be relocked by the accomplice, and Lizzie may have wondered if it was relocked or not.

[camgarsky4]

Kat isn't aware of a metal detector search. I would think someone has searched the yard, but that's just a guess.

Agree that Lizzie likely had a reason (besides random curiosity) to ask Bridget about cellar door.

I know this is obvious, but Abby's death likely occurred at least an hour prior to when Lizzie thought she heard Abby come home. Lizzie's claim is just plain suspicious and whacky. To your point, it is highly unlikely that Abby used the front door as her entry of choice. In the midst of all that ruckus and with her her father lying feet away, slaughtered, she imagines she hears Abby, someone she probably didn't give many thoughts to normally, come home. Basically unbelievable.

As an added tidbit, in Jennings Journals, Phoebe Bowen told Jennings that Abby told her a couple days before the murders that "they" had taken her front door key. We don't know who 'they' would be...but seems it was either AJB or Lizzie. Emma wasn't home.

[Inspector]

That’s interesting about the key being taken, very interesting.
Surprised Jennings didn’t follow up, or maybe he knew who “they” were and kept quiet in his journal.
I suppose the concrete parking over the yard would require special equipment to detect a buried hatchet, but I’m curious.
Do you know what kind of floor was in the cellar in Lizzie’s day, or if it’s been concreted over as well?

[camgarsky4]

Not sure on the cellar floor....you can probably find somewhere on the forum. I seem to recall testimony by a policeman that got testy about the cellar floor, so maybe it was dirt or maybe a combo.

There were many many people scouring the yard looking for signs of anything. I would suspect that if the earth was disturbed, someone would have mentioned it and checked what might be buried. Remember there was a $5000 reward.

[Inspector]

If the cellar floor is still mostly dirt, a metal detector could be used, but surely someone has thought of this before.
I don’t recall seeing it discussed anywhere.
In 1881 Alexander Bell used early technology to detect a bullet in the chest of President James Garfield, but only achieved a depth of 2 inches.
By 1929 the technology was up to 8 feet, so this would be after Lizzie’s time.
All the photos I see on line seem to show the cellar floor is a concrete foundation, but you’d know better than me.
So much for that idea .
Just wondering what can be done today with the property or house using modern technology to find more clues.

[camgarsky4]

The current basement/cellar has a concrete floor. I was thinking it might have been wholly or partially dirt floor back pre-1900.