Two versions of what Mark P. Chace saw August 4th.

This the place to have frank, but cordial, discussions of the Lizzie Borden case

Moderator: Adminlizzieborden

Post Reply
camgarsky4
Posts: 1813
Joined: Sat Aug 01, 2020 8:05 pm
Real Name: George Schuster

Two versions of what Mark P. Chace saw August 4th.

Post by camgarsky4 »

The claimed sighting of a buggy and man 'parked' in front of the Borden house around the time of AJB's killing is well known to all interested in the Borden case. What some might not have noticed is the apparent sub-drama behind the sighting claim.

Immediately after the killings, Officers Harrington and Doherty interviewed Mark P. Chace, the overseer of the Express Company's stable. The stables were located directly across Second Street from the Dr. Kelly house (Borden neighbor to the south). They recorded Chace's statement in their witness statement report. As a side-note, Chace had formerly been a member of Fall River law enforcement.

Witness Statement Page 20.
(Harrington & Doherty)
Mark Chase (sic) "Was around the Express Company's stable, opposite the Borden house all forenoon. Was back and forth from the stable to V. Wade's store several times between 10:30 and 11:15. Saw nothing suspicious."

Per this police report, Mark Chace told the police he saw nothing suspicious around the Borden home the day of the murders.

Mr. Chace did not testify at the Preliminary Hearing held late August, 1892. This indicates to me that as of late August, Chace's recollection either had not changed 'yet' or the defense wasn't aware that he might have seen something different than what the police report included.

He did testify to the Grand Jury in November, but impossible to know which version of his recollection he told the Grand Jury. Knowlton did allow some defense witnesses to testify to the Grand Jury, which he was not required to do (niceness point for Knowlton).

However, as we all know, six months after the Grand Jury, Chace testified at the trial that he saw an unfamiliar wagon and man sitting in front of the Borden house in the time window during which Andrew was killed. This trial testimony absolutely does NOT reconcile with his witness statement. A stranger sitting in front of the house at the time the occupant was killed would not qualify as "nothing suspicious" to anyone, much less a former member of the police force.

Now, to make this curious and dramatic change to Chace's recollections even more peculiar, read the following excerpt from Jennings and Chace's trial dialogue.

Mark P Chace Trial Testimony
Trial Pages 1362-1363

Q. (Jennings) Did you ever see such a buggy as that around there before?
A. (Chace) I never did, no, sir.
Q. Did you ever see that man around there before?
A. No, sir, not to notice him.
Q. Did you inform the police of this about the time of the murder?
Mr. Knowlton.  Wait a minute.
Mason, C. J. I do not see how it is competent.
Noon recess.

My interpretation of this testimony excerpt is that Jennings is to wanting to get Mark Chace to say that he told the police at the time of the murders. I presume his goal was to emphasize the point that the police did not follow up all the leads and, too early, focused solely on Lizzie. But we'll never know because Knowlton objected to the question and the judge halted that line of questioning.

I've spent considerable time digging into this issue because it could greatly damage the defense by implying that they were possibly involved in witness tampering or it could prove to be yet another major 'ding' against the police force by making a false or flawed police report.

I personally seesaw back and forth on this testimony. The police did make multiple errors (intentional or not), but this is also not the only defense witness who's story altered between initial reports and what they ended up testifying at the trial. Hiram Lubinsky, ice cream peddler, is another example. What strengthens the police report involving Lubinsky is that Hiram was interviewed in the newspaper shortly after the murders and what he said to the reporter matches the police report. His trial testimony on what time he passed the Borden house does not match what he told the police and the newspaper reporter. 11:10 am vs. 10:30 am. That time variance makes all the difference.

Research notes:
    Knowlton Papers only mention of Mark Chace is the document requesting that Chace be summoned as a potential witness at the trial (pg. 191).
      Jennings Journals (pg. 77) Chace tells Arthur Phillips basically the same story he recited at the trial. Phillips entry is not dated, but most likely taken sometime between the Preliminary Hearing and the Grand Jury.
        Zero newspaper mentions of his name associated with the Borden case until November when the Grand Jury witnesses were published in several newspapers.
        camgarsky4
        Posts: 1813
        Joined: Sat Aug 01, 2020 8:05 pm
        Real Name: George Schuster

        Re: Two versions of what Mark P. Chace saw August 4th.

        Post by camgarsky4 »

        Another research note to add.

        I've studied Mark Chace's life extensively; before and after the murders. I could find nothing that indicated he was a dishonest man. However, the same qualifier applies to Officers Harrington and Doherty.

        On the flip side, multiple newspaper reports involve Hiram Lubinsky in some checkered activities in the years after the murders. Interestingly he lived in the Borden home on Second street around 1916/17, just prior to when Lizzie and Emma sold the property.

        There are a couple entertaining and interesting Mark P. Chace stories, non-Borden related. If anyone is interested, I'll post them to this thread.
        Lorcan
        Posts: 194
        Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2025 2:22 pm
        Real Name: Paul Murphy

        Re: Two versions of what Mark P. Chace saw August 4th.

        Post by Lorcan »

        Thanks for adding this. I'll have to look more closely at it. The buggy I read about so far was parked on the East side (Borden house side) not the West side (Dr. Bowen side) and it was on the border of the property of the Kelly and Borden properties, but the driver was a relative of a woman walking by and stopped to talk to her and give her some items he was carrying, flowers or food, I think. So, this sounds like an entirely different buggy.

        I'd be interested in the Mark P. Chase stories.

        That Chace name sounded familiar - here is a summary I found:

        The "Mr. and Mrs. Frederick Chace" in the fabricated news story titled, Lizzie Borden’s Secret, appear to have been invented witnesses, not real case witnesses.

        Andrew Jennings immediately checked the address and name. He said he tried to find "Mr. and Mrs. Fred Chace" at 198 Fourth Street, but there was no such number, “not any within 50 of it,” and he could not find the name.

        Edmund Pearson later treated them as fictitious. Pearson lists "Mr and Mrs Frederick Chace" among the Trickey/McHenry procession of affidavit makers and says Trickey invented names: “all of these persons were fictitious.”

        Mark P. Chase was a real, separate trial witness. He appears in the actual trial record as Mark P. Chase, a hostler/former patrolman, testifying about seeing a stranger with a horse and buggy on Second Street.

        Frederick Chace / Mrs. Frederick Chace were not related to Mark P. Chase in real life because, as far as the case record and later investigation show, the “Frederick Chace” couple did not exist as described.

        There may have been real Fall River-area Chace families connected with mills, but the article’s Frederick Chace of 198 Fourth Street looks like a fabricated identity. That makes any relationship to Mark P. Chase unsupported.
        camgarsky4
        Posts: 1813
        Joined: Sat Aug 01, 2020 8:05 pm
        Real Name: George Schuster

        Re: Two versions of what Mark P. Chace saw August 4th.

        Post by camgarsky4 »

        Lorcan - yes, you are mixing buggies/wagons. :razz:

        Mrs. Manley talked to her nephew, who had some water lillies in his wagon. After chatting in the middle of the street, she glanced over and saw a guy leaning against the Borden driveway fence post. This was earlier in the day than Mark Chace's sighting.
        camgarsky4
        Posts: 1813
        Joined: Sat Aug 01, 2020 8:05 pm
        Real Name: George Schuster

        Re: Two versions of what Mark P. Chace saw August 4th.

        Post by camgarsky4 »

        Mark Chace.....hero!

        Scene of the story. May, 1894.
        St. Mary's, corner Second & Spring Streets
        Screenshot 2026-05-04 110934.png
        click on images to enlarge
        Screenshot 2026-05-04 112810.png
        Screenshot 2026-05-04 113248.png
        Screenshot 2026-05-04 113503.png
        You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
        Lorcan
        Posts: 194
        Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2025 2:22 pm
        Real Name: Paul Murphy

        Re: Two versions of what Mark P. Chace saw August 4th.

        Post by Lorcan »

        I checked Shelley's book about Oak Grove Cemetery for him and I didn't see him listed. I found his tombstone on find a grave - given his saving of Etta, I wanted to be sure he was memorialized. The location is OG4055, Beech Avenue in Oak Grove Cemetery.
        You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
        TeenaBee
        Posts: 52
        Joined: Tue Apr 29, 2025 2:32 pm
        Gender: Female
        Real Name: Teena Booth

        Re: Two versions of what Mark P. Chace saw August 4th.

        Post by TeenaBee »

        Yes, I noticed the discrepancy between the witness statements and what Mark Chace (it's spelled so many places as Chase, including the trial transcripts, so I am always confused how to type it) testified to in court. I looked him up because Victoria Lincoln claimed that Chace/Chase saw that buggy parked out front of the Borden house for an hour! I never believe her (why does she make stuff up!?) Lo and behold, in court Chase said he saw it the once and had no idea how long it had been there. Awhile later I ran into his witness statement, and I noticed he didn't mention the buggy, but that did not strike me as strange. I would suppose that at the time he noticed the buggy it did not seem to him as "suspicious." You can tell from the witness statements that police were asking that specific question. "Did you see anyone or anything that struck you as suspicious?" Half the people they report on are related as saying the exact same sentence "Saw nothing suspicious." That doesn't mean he didn't notice the buggy, or just pulled a memory out of thin air. In those early days the police were only looking for evidence to prove Lizzie guilty, they seemed irritated to have to go on what they believed wild goose chases (Medley several times comically complained about it in his reports), so of course their questioning would be phrased differently. I would imagine Jennings just asked better/different questions because he was on a different mission.

        I already noted in the other thread of yours I responded to today about how badly I think police bungled what they heard from Lubinsky. You say it odd that Mark Chase former police officer didn't think it suspicious that a buggy was parked in front of the murder house, but actual investigating police officer Michael Mullaly didn't seem to think it suspicious (or "of no account" in Robinson's words) that Lubinsky saw a woman in the ACTUAL BORDEN YARD -- why, because he thought Lubinsky said 10:30 a.m? In between the two murders? Yes, I have seen the mention in the paper of Lubinsky saying that he saw the woman at 10:30, but the article does not specifically say that this came from Lubinsky himself. We don't if the reporter interviewed Lubinsky, the reporter could have got all of that from Mullaly, (the article appeared on the 8th, the same day Mullaly interviewed Lubinsky). As I understand it, certain officers were very chatty with certain reporters, who got much of the news they reported on from the officers.

        Overall, I agree with your assessment that it is telling that what people apparently told police was different than the testimony they gave at trial. But the telling part from where I sit is that 1) the police officers were not trained detectives and were fairly crappy at interviewing, 2) a rush to judgment that you mentioned, and that Jennings pushed, in which they blinded themselves to anyone but Lizzie. And there is also 3) the human factor -- we humans simply forget then remember back and forth all the time because brains don't store memories like a computer
        Post Reply