Timeline of Andrew's Murder

[camgarsky4]

Much of our posts end up poking into what happened from about 10:40 to 11:15.

The general consensus has always roughly been as follows:

10:40-45 Andrew arrives home (Mrs. Kelly & Bridget)
10:55-57 Bridget goes up to her bedroom (Bridget)
11:05-10 Lizzie calls Bridget downstairs (Lizzie & Bridget)
11:15 Cunningham calls the police station (police records & Cunningham)

I think we should still challenge this timeline and improve it as we can.

The killer seems to have had about a 5-8 minute window to kill, cleanup and escape, or in Lizzie's case, compose herself and call down Bridget. This also allows 10 minutes for all that happened between AJB's arrival and Bridget going upstairs.

It feels like so much happened in an impossibly short time frame. That is why Lizzie finding the time to go to the cellar, break hatchets and carefully camouflage the hatchet head, bring the handle back upstairs and put in stove, clean herself up and the composing herself to face Bridget. I'm not saying that isn't what happened, just still can't get my head around it as likely from a timeline perspective.

[Lorcan]

I'll try to find the exact testimony later, but I think we have to do 2 timelines, since if Lizzie is innocent and not lying about what she did and for how long, the window is even tighter, since she was in the back yard collecting pears, looking at the birdhouse, and looking out the west barn loft window that overlooks the driveway and screen door.

The key is she says the screen door was wide open - which means the outside killer had to leave that door after Lizzie was done with the pears and looking out the window.

Andrew's killing itself took somewhere between 8 - 20 seconds, most likely.

[Lorcan]

It is from the Inquest:

Hosea Knowlton: The window you was at is the window that is nearest the street in the barn?
Lizzie Borden: Yes, sir. The west window.

Hosea Knowlton: The pears you ate you got from under the tree in the yard?
Lizzie Borden: Yes, sir.

Hosea Knowlton: How long were you under the pear tree?
Lizzie Borden: I think I was under there very nearly four or five minutes. I stood looking around. I looked up at the pigeon house that they have closed up. It was no more than five minutes, perhaps not as long. I can't say sure.

[Lorcan]

The barn was about 10 feet closer to the house, but this is the view out of Bridget's window. I wonder if she spent any time looking and what she saw. I was looking at the barn, but Crowe's barn would easily have been visible as well. The window has a towering view over the back yard.

I didn't notice my phone camera focussed on the screen. If I get a chance to visit again, I will get better photos.

[camgarsky4]

Your photos are fantastic.

I like breaking into 2-minute segments. Let's all do a little rereading and start to assemble the times. I think we are good to use the police call report time of 11:15 to tell us when Cunningham made his call. All agree?

I'll go back and reread what clues we have on when he arrived besides Mrs. Kelly's recollection.

[Lorcan]

Yes, 2 minute segments are good and the 11:15 time is as accurate as we have available to us.

Here are some potential events that would have to fit into the timeline. We can pick and choose which of these potential events might have actually happened and add more. We can add to, modify, and remove from the lists as we think through the different combinations.

Many of mine assume the handleless hatchet is the murder weapon because it fit Andrew's skull wound perfectly because it was ground/sharpened so many times and a new 3.5 inch hatchet didn't fit. I am making the assumption that hatchets are originally ground symmetrically, so if the lower part of the blade is thinner and shorter than the upper part of the blade, that is due to grinding and sharpening over time.

1. Wait for Andrew to lay down and close his eyes
2. Put on the overcoat and potentially a hair covering of some type (sleeping bonnet, handkerchief, rag, towel)
3. Strike Andrew 10 or 11 times
4. Take off, fold-roll the coat, use the coat tails to position the pillow and Andrew's head
5. Accidentally touch the kitchen door jamb leaving a blood smear, showing the direction of movement from the sitting room into the kitchen
6. Use the sink on the first floor
7. Skip the sink on the first floor and clean up in the basement
8. Go out to the barn for some purpose (to be seen outside the house, to hide the weapon, break or saw the hatchet handle using the vise or other tools
9. Go to the basement to dispose of any bloody rags and wet and rub ash on the hatchet blade and place it into a box of old tools.
10. Use a mirror to make sure you are presentable
11. Take a deep breath and yell up the stairs to Bridget

Things get more complicated for an outside killer:

1. Wait for Andrew to be alone on the first floor (no scream from Lizzie or Bridget, nor running away screaming out the screen door)
2. Wait for Andrew to close his eyes and dose off (no scream from him, nor defensive wounds)
3. Wait for Lizzie to enter the barn
4. Wait for Lizzie to stop looking out the West window of the barn.
5. Hope Bridget doesn't look out her window at the back yard.
6. Hope none of the neighbors look out there windows or even look around (workers at Crowe yard, woman sitting on Chagnon porch)
7. Hope Uncle John doesn't return
8. Hope Bridget doesn't come downstairs

[camgarsky4]

Using the Preliminary Hearing for the two testimonies which mentioned a time which were in closest time proximity to him arriving home.
James Mather & Caroline Kelly.

James Mather testified he looked at the city clock as AJB exited Clegg's new store on South Main. Time was 10:40, give or take a minute.
Per Googlemaps it is approximately a 3 minute walk from that store to the Borden house. Using the earlier time, that gets AJB home at 10:42.
Mrs. Kelly testified that she checked her clock before leaving her house; it was 10:30 -35.
She sees AJB in front of his house. Using latest time, adding 2 minutes after checking clock. That puts him at front door at 10:37.

All the testimony noted that they could be off a couple minutes in either direction. With that in mind, 10:37 and 10:42 feel equitable and the witnesses believable. I vote we split the difference and go with 10:40 for his arrival home.

[Lorcan]

Yes, that sounds like the most plausible time.

So, I forgot to add a bunch of events:

1. Andrew enters the dining room
2. Andrew enters the sitting room
3. Andrew takes the key from the sitting room mantle and goes up to his bedroom.
4. Andrew removes his coat and hangs it up in the dining room closet?
5. Andrew starts to read on the sitting room sofa.
6. Andrew abandons his reading to take a nap.
7. Lizzie asks Andrew if she received any mail.
8. A roll of paper ends up in the kitchen stove fire.

[Lorcan]

OK, I tried to sort it carefully with AI help - triple checking. However, let's treat this as a 1st draft which may contain errors.

Some of this is likely to be deleted, but it should save Camgarsky a lot of typing - do you want to use this as a starting point for a cleaner, more concise working timeline?

Time | Source | Description

10:30-10:45 | Witness statements - Mather / Shortsleeves | Andrew is placed near the end of his morning errands, leaving or being near the South Main / Spring Street area and going toward home. This gives a range, not a precise arrival time.

About 10:32-10:35 | Caroline Kelly testimony / witness statement | Mrs. Kelly saw Andrew inside his yard, apparently coming from the side/back area toward the front door, with a small parcel, and stooping as if using a key. Her clock evidence is not clean, so this should be used cautiously.

About 10:40 | Working anchor | A reasonable compromise arrival time for Andrew. Bridget’s police statement places his arrival at about 10:40, but other timing witnesses vary.

About 10:40 | Trial - Bridget Sullivan | Andrew is at the front door. Bridget is washing sitting-room windows inside. She hears/realizes someone is trying to get in at the front door.

About 10:40 | Trial - Bridget Sullivan | Bridget goes to the front door. The door is secured by the spring lock, bolt, and key lock. She struggles with the locks and says something like “Oh, pshaw.”

About 10:40 | Trial - Bridget Sullivan | Bridget hears Lizzie laugh. In Bridget’s trial account, Lizzie is upstairs or at/near the stairs/front hall area, not simply standing in the dining room.

10:40-10:42 | Trial - Bridget Sullivan | Andrew enters the house. He has a small parcel, paper, or book-like item.

10:40-10:43 | Trial - Bridget Sullivan | Andrew moves through the sitting/dining-room area while Bridget returns to window washing.

10:42-10:45 | Trial - Bridget Sullivan | Lizzie comes down through the front-entry/dining-room area after Andrew is let in. She asks Andrew about mail. Bridget hears Lizzie say that Mrs. Borden had received a note and gone out.

10:42-10:45 | Trial - Bridget Sullivan | Bridget hears Lizzie tell Andrew about the note, but does not hear Andrew’s answer.

10:45-10:48 | Trial - Bridget Sullivan | Andrew takes the bedroom key from the sitting-room mantel/shelf and goes upstairs by the back stairs to his bedroom.

10:48-10:50 | Trial - Bridget Sullivan | Andrew returns downstairs. Bridget has finished or is finishing the sitting-room window work and is moving her water/basin/step-ladder toward the dining-room windows.

10:48-10:51 | Trial - Bridget Sullivan | Andrew sits in the sitting room near the window and lets down or adjusts a window.

10:50-10:53 | Trial - Bridget Sullivan | Lizzie comes from the sitting room into the dining room, goes to the kitchen, gets the ironing board, places it on the dining-room table, and begins or resumes ironing handkerchiefs.

10:50-10:53 | Inquest - Lizzie | Lizzie’s account differs somewhat. She says she had been reading, waiting for the flat irons, and did not iron any more after her father came in. She also says the ironing board remained on the dining-room table and was not put away by her.

10:52-10:55 | Trial - Bridget Sullivan | Lizzie asks Bridget whether she is going out that afternoon. Lizzie says that if Bridget goes out, she should lock the door, because Mrs. Borden has gone out on a sick call and Lizzie may go out too.

10:53-10:56 | Trial - Bridget Sullivan | Bridget finishes the dining-room windows, goes to the kitchen, washes/rinses her cloths, and hangs them behind the stove.

10:54-10:56 | Trial - Bridget Sullivan | Lizzie tells Bridget about a cheap dress-goods sale at Sargent’s. Bridget says she may get some cloth.

About 10:56-10:57 | Trial - Bridget Sullivan | Bridget goes upstairs to her room. She lies down without changing clothes.

About 11:00 | Trial - Bridget Sullivan | Bridget hears the City Hall bell strike 11:00 and checks or notices her own clock. She estimates she had been upstairs only a few minutes before the 11:00 bell.

10:55-11:00 | Inquest - Lizzie | Lizzie says that after Andrew came in, she had been in the kitchen/dining-room area, had been reading, waiting for flats, and had put a stick of wood on the fire, which was smoldering rather than burning well.

10:55-11:00 | Inquest - Lizzie | Lizzie says that before she went to the barn, Andrew had lain down on the sitting-room lounge, taken off his shoes, put on slippers, taken off his coat, and put on the reefer. This should be marked as Lizzie’s account, not independently observed fact.

10:55-11:00 | Inquest - Lizzie | Lizzie says she left Andrew on the sofa. She says he was not asleep.

11:00-11:10/11:15 | Inquest - Lizzie / later testimony about her statements | Lizzie says she went to the barn or barn loft/second story to look for lead or sinker material while waiting for the flat irons to heat. The exact duration varies by account; roughly twenty minutes is reported in later testimony about what she told officials.

11:00-11:10/11:15 | Evidence item | Lead was later found in the barn: a basket with round lead pipe and scrap sheet lead upstairs, and a wooden box with lead downstairs. This supports the existence of lead in the barn, but it does not by itself prove Lizzie’s movements.

11:10-11:15 | Trial - Bridget Sullivan | Bridget hears Lizzie call from below: “Maggie, come down!” / “Come down quick; father’s dead; somebody came in and killed him.” Bridget estimates this was about 10-15 minutes after the 11:00 bell.

11:10-11:15 | Trial - Bridget Sullivan | Bridget comes downstairs in response to Lizzie’s call.

11:10-11:15 | Trial - Mrs. Churchill | Mrs. Churchill sees Lizzie at or inside the screen door, appearing agitated or excited. Lizzie tells her that someone has killed father.

11:10-11:15 | Trial - Mrs. Churchill | Mrs. Churchill asks where Lizzie was. Lizzie says she went to the barn to get a piece of iron.

11:10-11:15 | Trial - Mrs. Churchill | Mrs. Churchill asks where Mrs. Borden is. Lizzie says she does not know; Mrs. Borden had received a note to go see someone sick, but Lizzie does not know but that she may be killed too, because she thought she heard her come in.

About 11:15 | Witness statements - George Allen / Alice Russell | The alarm is effectively underway. George Allen’s statement places the Marshal sending him to the Borden house at 11:15. Alice Russell’s statement places Bridget arriving at Russell’s house at 11:15.

About 11:15+ | Trial / witness statements - Bridget, Churchill, Bowen, Russell, Allen | Bridget is sent for Dr. Bowen and then Miss Russell. Mrs. Churchill seeks help for a doctor. The alarm spreads and police response begins.

Possible concealed-action sequence if Lizzie killed Andrew
These are not testified events. They are theory placements showing what would have to fit into the private interval after Bridget went upstairs and before Lizzie called her down.

Time | Source/status | Description

About 10:56-10:57 | Testimony-based setup + inference | Bridget is upstairs. Andrew is alone or nearly alone in the sitting room.

10:57-10:59 | Inference | Killer prepares. This could include putting on a protective garment such as an overcoat and possibly some form of hair covering, if that theory is used.

10:59-11:02 | Inference | Killer waits for Andrew to settle, close his eyes, or doze.

11:02-11:04 | Inference from wounds/body position | Andrew is struck repeatedly on the sitting-room sofa.

11:04-11:07 | Inference | Killer removes or manages protective clothing and visible blood. This could include folding/rolling a garment or avoiding direct contact with bloody areas.

11:04-11:07 | Inference | If Andrew’s head or pillow was adjusted after the attack, this is the likely placement. This is not directly testified as an observed act.

11:05-11:08 | Evidence item + inference | Any blood transfer to a door casing or nearby woodwork would have to occur after the attack. Direction of movement should be treated as an argument, not as direct testimony.

11:07-11:10 | Inference | Killer cleans hands, face, or exposed areas. Possible locations include the first-floor sink or the basement, but neither is directly proved as the killer’s cleanup site.

11:09-11:12 | Inference / handleless-hatchet theory | Weapon is hidden, wiped, cleaned, or returned to a tool location. If the handleless hatchet is the weapon, this is where the ash/rust/old-tool-box problem has to be placed.

11:09-11:12 | Inference / handleless-hatchet theory | If the handle was broken, removed, or disposed of after the murder, it would also have to fit here or earlier. Breaking or sawing it in the barn would create additional timing/noise problems.

11:12-11:15 | Inference | Killer checks appearance, composes self, returns to the kitchen/back-entry area, and makes the discovery call.

About 11:15 | Trial - Bridget Sullivan | Lizzie calls Bridget.

[camgarsky4]

Excellent....that saves a crazy amount of time.

I just read Allen's trial testimony and he said he checked the station clock when Hilliard told him to go to the Borden's. It read 11:15. Unless we have reason to think otherwise, this feels like lock down time in our timeline.

Also, at the trial when being cross examined, Mather was more specific about what time the city clock read when AJB left Cleggs new store. It was 20 minutes until 11am ...give or take one minute. The witness statement time is much more vague. I think we update with his trial statement.

Churchill was sent for a doctor. She went across the street and told her 'man' Bowles to fetch a doc. Churchill stayed at the stable briefly telling the men what had happened and asked someone to call police. No one did until newspaperman Cunningham walked up and heard what happened. He then went several stores down the street and called the police station...apparently at 11:15.

[Lorcan]

Agreed, fell free to edit at will. Consider the big list above as just a mine from which we can extract gold, then over time we can make some jewelry out of it with the most concise, fully-referenced, timeline.

[Inspector]

In the timeline are we excluding any visit to the barn, even if was a casual walk?
Cunningham says he passed Churchill at Halls, then kept walking, collected money down close to Wades, then came back to Halls and Churchill was still there.
Seems like Churchill was at Halls a bit longer than I imagined—probably not worth mentioning, but it struck me as curious.

[Lorcan]

Andrew at least walked to the screen door first, probably the barn. I'd give 1 to 2 minutes minimum to the barn / screen door attempt. What's weird is Bridget didn't hear him try to get into the screen door, if he did, since she was in the dining room or sitting room at the time. Lizzie saying she was in the kitchen at the time is even less plausible for not hearing and/or seeing him.

One way I can think of for Bridget not hearing or seeing him is if both the door to the sitting room-kitchen and sitting room-dining room are closed or the sitting room-kitchen and dining room-kitchen doors are closed and Bridget is washing the sitting room windows. But if the doors are open, that really becomes hard to believe. But why keep all the interior doors closed on a hot day when there are no private conversations going on, just cleaning the house?

He definitely walked around the house from the driveway, inside the gate from screen door / barn area, and he definitely struggled to and failed to open the front door because of the 3 locks being unusually set during the day. It was Lizzie's job to unlock all but the spring lock when she woke up and came downstairs in the morning.

I would guess 3 or 4 minutes total from Andrew arriving at the gate of his house to actually entering the house.

[Inspector]

I recollect the kitchen/dining room door was kept closed while Bridget was washing the sitting room, but I could be mistaken.
Lizzie certainly would have heard Andrew at the screen door if she was in the kitchen.
Wheather Andrew actually tried accessing the screen door is not clear, but would seem normal to do so.

[camgarsky4]

I've thought it peculiar that Andrew might have walked all the way around to the side door if his only intent was entering the house. He was coming from the south, so his route took him directly to the front door. He had a key, so nothing was stopping him from taking the direct route into the house.

I've stewed on whether he was taking the broken door lock back to the barn and then tried the side door. But that doesn't necessarily jibe with him still carrying the white parcel when he entered, because I think the white parcel was the broken lock wrapped in his white handkerchief.

When he approached the side door and pulled on the screen, finding it latched and not seeing anyone in his eyesight in the kitchen, he just walked around to the front door. He wasn't feeling so hot, so that might have stifled a more natural irritation instinct.

If a person thought the parcel was something else, then this thought might have better traction.

[Inspector]

Not to throw the timeline thread off, but I’ve wondered how Bridget (cleaning south sitting room window), and Lizzie above (near a south window) both had no testimony of seeing Andrew approaching the house from the south.
If Lizzie is guilty , this should have been her business, to watch for him. I suppose it’s possible for Bridget not to have seen him, but I’d feel better if she’d mentioned his approach,

I don’t recall anyone checking to see if Bridget actually washed all the interior windows she claimed.
That could help validate some of her actions and testimony during this critical time period.

[Lorcan]

Here's Bridget's description of the item Andrew was carrying. We can all try to guess if he brought it upstairs to his bedroom or office or left it on the first floor.

Q. After you had let Mr. Borden in, where did you go?
A. I went on washing my window.

Q. Into the sitting room again?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. Where did he go?
A. And he come into the sitting room and went into the dining room.

Q. Did you see whether he had anything or not?
A. He had a little parcel in his hand, same as a paper or a book; I can't tell what it was.

Q. Speak a little louder, please.
A. He had a parcel in his hand, the same as a paper or a book; I can't tell what it was.

Q. Did you see what Mr. Borden did when he went into the dining room?
A. He sat down in a chair at the head of the lounge.

Q. And what did you continue to do?
A. I was washing my windows. I went out into the kitchen after something. I see the man sitting on the lounge, and the chair at the head of the lounge.

Q. In the dining room?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did any one else appear at that time?
A. Miss Lizzie came down stairs, probably five minutes---I couldn't tell exactly the time. She came down through the entry, the front entry, into the dining room, I suppose to her father.

Q. And in going to the dining room did she have to go through the sitting room in which you were?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. What did she say, if anything, to her father?
A. I heard her ask her father if he had any mail, and they had some talk between them which I didn't understand or pay any attention to, but I heard her tell her father that Mrs. Borden had a note and gone out.

Q. What is the next thing that happened?
A. The next thing I remember, Mr. Borden went out in the kitchen and come in the kitchen door, come from the kitchen into the sitting room and took a key off the mantel piece and went up stairs to his room.

Q. What key was it that he took?
A. The key of his bedroom door.

Q. And what stairs did he go up?
A. The back stairs.

Q. What is the next thing that you did?
A. Well, as Mr. Borden come down stairs, I was completed in the sitting room, and taking my water and taking the hand basin and step ladder into the dining room. As I got in there he pulled a rocking chair and sat down in the rocking chair near the window and let down the window, as I left it up when I got through.

Q. Sat in a rocking chair in which room?
A. The sitting room.

[camgarsky4]

Not to throw the timeline thread off, but I’ve wondered how Bridget (cleaning south sitting room window), and Lizzie above (near a south window) both had no testimony of seeing Andrew approaching the house from the south.
If Lizzie is guilty , this should have been her business, to watch for him. I suppose it’s possible for Bridget not to have seen him, but I’d feel better if she’d mentioned his approach,

I don’t recall anyone checking to see if Bridget actually washed all the interior windows she claimed.
That could help validate some of her actions and testimony during this critical time period.

Inspector, the sitting room windows look across at the Kelly house. The side yards in Fall River are narrow (at least compared to midwestern tastes anyway) and Bridget would have had to go to the east side of the windows and look 'diagonally' at Second Street. She was washing windows, there would be no innocent reason to take that effort to check out Second Street. A side note, it would have taken Andrew mere seconds to walk the 'open' space between the front yards of the Kelly and Borden houses.

Lizzie, if guilty, might have been watching for Andrew from her upstairs window, but that would basically be admitting guilt, so she wouldn't have mentioned in her testimony.

Lorcan, you were there more recently than I, does my description of the sitting room window view of Second Street match your recollection?

[Lorcan]

The only window with a view and the tree and Kelly house block part of it is the front staircase window. The lower window is fake - just decoration for symmetry. Here is the view out Lizzie's window in 2026 and the critical historical photo to confirm angles and tree cover.

We are lucky to have that historical photo. Perfect angle and definitive.

[Lorcan]

I blurred the faces from a tour video, but this shows the window height from the stairs.

[Lorcan]

It's slightly possible she would recognize him when he walked in front of the church on Spring Street, but that is a stretch. It's about 180 ft / 60 yards - so maybe. The map segment is from Rebelo's book.

[camgarsky4]

Good visuals...thanks.

Inspector, I think you are wondering about the two sitting room windows that Bridget was cleaning. As you can see from the contemporary photos Lorcan posted above, it would be highly unlikely that someone looking thru those windows would see much of anything on Second St.

[Inspector]

Alright good work. I had forgotten the first lower SW window was also fake. I suppose it would be easier to peer from the parlor, or the guest room.
The angle and timespan doesn’t seem to work so well from the most SW sitting room window as I thought.

[camgarsky4]

Found a photo of Mrs. Kelly on the website "Warps & Wefts". I had never seen this photo. Appears to be of the doctor, his wife and two daughters (and some others). Guessing the photo was taken in 1914 based on the note on the photo. Cantwell was Mrs. Kelly's maiden name.

Dr. Kelly is in the middle and Mrs. Kelly is directly in front of him. Remainer of article can be read on the website mentioned above.

Screenshot 2026-07-08 082527.png

[Lorcan]

Excellent find! I'll have to go through that whole website sometime.

I asked Seth Rosczewski and Rich Little (he wrote Cold Case to Case Closed) to invite Shelley Dziedzic (of Warps and Wefts) on the show. She wrote the two books Dressing Miss Lizzie, and a book about the Oak Grove Cemetery. Both are excellent. She worked at the Borden house for 18 years, I think.

Seth and Rich have a Lizzie episode premiering on their youtube channel tonight at 7. Rich believes Uncle John did it, but he agreed to address my question about two fundamentally different categories of story Lizzie told about why she re-entered the house (the scraping sound, the groan - then investigating) vs. (checking the stove, putting her hat down, deciding to go upstairs to wait for Bridget to stoke the fire, coming across the crime scene).

I'll have a short post about the Aug 4 morning timeline in a few mins.

[Lorcan]

I think this is accurate. Any flaws?

Lizzie’s inquest account puts Abby’s disappearance far too early. Lizzie says she found Abby in the dining room when she came downstairs, with Andrew in the sitting room and Bridget coming in with her pail and brush. Lizzie says Abby asked how she felt, asked what she wanted for dinner, said she was going out, and that this was the last time Lizzie saw or spoke to her. Lizzie then went into the kitchen and down cellar for “perhaps five minutes.” When she returned, Abby was gone but Andrew was still there, reading. Lizzie later adds that Abby had already made the guest-room bed, dusted the room, and left it in order before Lizzie came down. All that remained was to put fresh pillow slips on the small pillows.

The independent timeline puts the viable murder window later. Mrs. Churchill saw Andrew near the side/back steps “somewhere near nine o’clock,” but did not see where he went and did not see him again until after he was killed. Bridget fixes the actual start of window-washing at about 9:30 and states that Andrew had already gone out of the house by then. Hart places Andrew at the Union Savings Bank at about 9:30–9:35, with little variation from half past nine, and Burrill independently places him in the same bank building between quarter past nine and quarter to ten, staying long enough to get him out before ten.

That means the first clean opportunity for Abby’s murder is around 9:30–9:35, when Bridget is outside and Andrew is independently away from the house. Lizzie’s version does not fit that window. Her account has Abby going upstairs for a two-minute pillowcase task roughly after Lizzie came down, then disappearing while Andrew is still in the house. At the same time, Lizzie later says Andrew did not leave until “somewhere about 10” and was with her downstairs, while the outside witnesses have him already at the bank around 9:30. The contradiction is structural: Lizzie moves Abby’s brief upstairs errand too early and Andrew’s departure too late. Her account covers the very period in which the non-Lizzie evidence makes Abby’s murder possible, which is why the timeline strongly indicates she was not telling the truth.

[Lorcan]

Cleaned it up a bit without AI

[camgarsky4]

**The following comments assume Bridget is innocent of participating in the murders and did not intentionally mislead with her testimony.**

Bridget had been outside about a half hour prior to 9:30 to vomit and, based on Churchill's description of what she saw AJB doing, Andrew left for downtown while Bridget was having her tummy difficulties.

Bridget recalled Abby telling her to clean the windows between 9-9:30, but we know from her own testimony that the norm was for Abby to provide those types of instructions as breakfast was ending, not 1-2 hours later. Morse tells us that Bridget was told to wash the windows while he was at the breakfast table (7:30ish). His recollection matches up with when Bridget stated extra chores were assigned by Abby.

Morse and Bridget can't both be correct, unless Bridget was told twice and only remembered the once. If lying, Morse could have learned of the window washing upon his return to the house post-murders. I can't think of a single reason why he would find it necessary to commit perjury by stating that he heard Abby tell Bridget to wash the windows.

All that translates to Bridget getting her times a bit mixed up. We know she had nausea to the point that she had to go out and be sick for 10-15 minutes. I don't think she invented anything. I tend to presume her feeling very poorly resulted in some timelines getting squishy.

As a side note, I put more weight on Bridget hearing the city clock strike 11am than on her recollection that she went up to her bedroom around 10:55.

The whole point of this diatribe is that it might have been possible that Abby was killed closer to 9am than 9:30am. As a disclaimer, this is not my unique opinion; Spencer and Kat have also leaned in this direction as to the timing of Abby's demise.

[Lorcan]

That all makes sense. So, the window for Abby's murder opens the moment both Bridget and Andrew are out of the house. Andrew is gone near 9 while Bridget is still in the back yard and Bridget may have overestimated how late it was that she went outside to do the windows, but presumably after 9, but before 9:30.

I think the biggest hole Lizzie dug was saying Andrew was with her in the house until 10. That's simply impossible, unless Mrs. Churchill, Bridget, and at least 2 people at the bank are all wrong.

[Lorcan]

Getting back to the thread topic, how tightly do you have the best timeline windows for Andrew at the moment, Camgarsky?

[camgarsky4]

The times seem to be pretty close to the opening post. Tiny tweak to when Lizzie might have called down Bridget.
It just doesn't seem plausible that everything that reportedly took place between Bridget first coming down the stairs to Cunningham calling the police station could have been less than 8-10 minutes.

10:40-45 Andrew arrives home (Mrs. Kelly & Bridget)
10:55-57 Bridget goes up to her bedroom (Bridget)
11:05-07 Lizzie calls Bridget downstairs (Lizzie & Bridget)
11:15 Cunningham calls the police station (police records & Cunningham)

[Lorcan]

Poke holes into this at will. This is just a shot in the dark as to what might have happened and when.

10:57
Andrew is on the sofa with his eyes closed, perhaps lightly snoring.

Let's say Lizzie is guilty and Bridget walks up the stairs at 10:57. Lizzie listens at the bottom of the stairs as Bridget walks up. Then she has to retrieve the hatchet from (the basement or the kitchen or the sink room right next to the rear staircase) either way that can be done easily in 1 minute.

10:58
Lizzie passes through the kitchen into the dining room and takes the coat out of the closet and optionally puts a sleeping bonnet or other cloth over her hair.

10:59
The first strike and Andrew is already moving from unconscious dreaming to traumatic unconsciousness. During the next 15 seconds the hatchet falls 9 more times. Lizzie removes the coat, carefully keeping it away from her dress. She rolls it using the tail of the coat to adjust the pillow and Andrew's head. She pulls the cloth from her head and swoons a bit as she passes through the kitchen door leaving a smear of blood on the door jamb.

11:00
Lizzie begins the cleanup. Perhaps she burns the roll of paper and the sleeping bonnet or maybe there was no hair covering or maybe it was a cloth that wouldn't be out of place in a pail of bloody cloths downstairs.

11:01 wash, scrub, wash, scrub
11:02 deal with the weapon, perhaps dry it, wrap the cutting edge and then wrap it to her thigh. There will be no pat down.
11:03
11:04
11:05 walk to the staircase, take a deep breath, call out to Bridget.

I didn't put a walk out to the garage and back, but that would fit between 11:02 and 11:05, however I'm not convinced she did actually leave the house.

[camgarsky4]

Very possible.

Couple of inputs....since Morse was coming to lunch, I don't think Andrew intended to fall asleep, so assuming he had just laid down, at the most he may have been resting his eyes, but doubt asleep.

Bridget saw Lizzie head into the dining room as she herself headed down the back hall to the stairs.

If she fetched the hatchet, I suspect it was pre-positioned in the parlor prior to AJB's attack. Lizzie could have brought it downstairs, deposited in parlor, walked thru dining room to get ironing board and then chatted up Bridget, trying to get her to leave the house. At that point, she knew Bridget nor Andrew would be going into the parlor, so safe spot.

I very strongly believe the kitchen sink was located in the southeast corner of the kitchen, so easy, quick access to wash oneself and the weapon.

As an option on the murder weapon, years ago, I timed it and the assailant would have had time to walk to the back corner of the yard and toss the hatchet and return. Reentry would have been exactly where she needed to be to call down Bridget.

[Inspector]

Good point about not falling asleep, and there wasn’t much time for him to fall asleep either.
Sadly, the time interval is so small for Andrew’s death that the chances of Lizzie happening to be in the barn are strikingly small.
I don’t like even thinking about it.

Your thought that the weapon (I’ll add —wrapped in rags kept in pail without water) being kept in the parlor, makes me wonder about Lizzie’s statement to Bridget about the parlor blinds.

[Inspector]

Good work on the timeline guys, I’ve been too busy to add much, but, I do want to go back at some point and get a better handle on everything Bridget and Lizzie said about Abby’s morning movements, and words.

[camgarsky4]

Seth and Rich have a Lizzie episode premiering on their youtube channel tonight at 7. Rich believes Uncle John did it, but he agreed to address my question about two fundamentally different categories of story Lizzie told about why she re-entered the house (the scraping sound, the groan - then investigating) vs. (checking the stove, putting her hat down, deciding to go upstairs to wait for Bridget to stoke the fire, coming across the crime scene).

I searched youtube for "lizzie Borden" and "Rich little". Got several youtubes from months ago, but didn't see anything launched recently. Am I missing it?

[Lorcan]

It's here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7k_2HdvxZLg but he didn't answer my actual question and he answered it in a way that will really rile you up, Camgarsky, so you might not want to waste time on it unless you are curious or bored.

I gave him testimony about Lizzie's 2 versions of hearing a noise and entering and the 3rd version of checking on the kitchen stove, putting the hat away, deciding to sit upstairs and then finding the crime scene. He avoided the heart of the question.

If I remember correctly, I think his perspective is:

1. He doesn't consider the transcript of the inquest to be accurate - he considers it lost and reconstructed from unreliable sources (newspapers)
2. CONVERSELY he treats the newspaper article about Dr. Bowen being at Weybosset and the "police report" (witness statement) as 100% reliable and key to his theory Uncle John did it.
3. He ignores the Jennings Journals evidence about where Dr. Bowen actually was.

It's mixed feelings for me - he seems like a really great guy being a school teacher all the way into his 80s but his research discipline is awful.

[camgarsky4]

This morning I watched a few minutes of an earlier John Morse "deep dive" podcast of his. He spews almost continuous fabricated information.

In just a few moments he invented that Morse worked for Andrew, that Andrew and Morse had an ongoing cattle/horse business relationship, that Morse was a sophisticated draft dodger....had to switch it off. Will make myself watch remainder and the episode you link above because I'm into self pain.

Watching these podcasts remind me why I'm so glad I didn't read the novels or watch podcasts until I knew the case inside and out. Otherwise people will spend all their time unraveling what they think is the truth and swirl in confusion.

I watch some to see if any new, legitimate, tidbits get revealed. Has yet to happen.

[camgarsky4]

Just listened to him 'not' answer your question. I view him as a quack, perhaps well intended, but a quack all the same. He seemingly is posturing himself as a topic expert and based on what little I've listened to he is definitely not a expert on the case. Tiny example, but he tosses in that we don't know if 'she' heard a laugh because the inquest is conjecture. First of all, the 'she' is Bridget, not Lizzie and secondly, Bridget testified about the laugh at the PH and trial.

With Teenabee being an exception, I firmly believe that all the 'Lizzie didn't do it' advocates who commercialize their thoughts, take that stand to offer up something 'different' to entice and draw in viewers and readers. To come up with another suspect they are forced to pick and choose which facts and rumors they lean into and which they ignore.

Teenabee passion and belief in Lizzie's innocence is based on something real.....her own personal experiences. That is why I respect her approach, even though it does exhaust me a bit.

[Lorcan]

Camgarsky - somewhere around the Kelly photo discussion, you had your 1892nd post on the forum!

I hope they are successful getting Shelley D. on the show. She has some interesting stories from working at the Borden house so long and I think she is friends with the Kooreys. There is an article about Stefani's (or Kat's, can't remember) first visit to the house that Shelley plays a funny role in.

Teenabee, when you're ready, I'm 100% positive we could get you on his podcast. It's not a huge audience, but it'll throw some traffic your way.

[camgarsky4]

It's not super hard to get the basic facts of John Morse's life. Here is his obituary which tells us that he moved to Illinois in 1855 and only worked for the Davis family in the "meat business" for 2 years in his very early 20's. No mention of working for Andrew and specifically places him far far away from New England at the time of the civil war.

A secondary verification that he moved west in 1855 is that he sold his only property in Fall River that same year. Something one would do if relocating permanently.

Click on image to enlarge

Screenshot 2026-07-09 111516.png

[Inspector]

That Rich Little is something isn’t he?
He had a guest on one of his podcasts that he does with his grandson as the host ( I think) anyway the guest was a young female who is convinced that Emma did it.
Rich basically said her theories were just as good as his, and tiptoed around offending her or even presenting how his theories opposed hers.
Nah….they aren’t looking for truth, but rather something new and exciting—“evidence”. I don’t think so.
Presenting his theories as fact is what many have done to the case, but he should know better.
I do appreciate his accent, and related historical tid bits, but long time researchers aren’t fooled, and certainly wouldn’t buy his book.
Unless they want to read about everything that Andrew, Abby, and John discussed in the sitting room the evening before the murders.

[Inspector]

At the tail end of the timeline, Spencer points out on page 653 CALB, that Lizzie sends Bridget not to the next house over—Mrs Churchill, but to fetch Alice. Knowlton points out that Sawyer was afraid enough (15 minutes later) to bolt the cellar door, yet Lizzie’s demeanor was the opposite in the same hallway.

I don’t think Lizzie had time to do anything while Bridget was away, because she was spotted by Churchill.
I wonder if Churchill had actually just entered her house when Bridget took off for Alice, barely missing her visually, and perhaps Lizzie caught a glimpse of Mrs Churchill in the kitchen which forced her (Lizzie) to remain at the side door. —speculation—

If Lizzie was as guilty, why did she remain at the side door, and what an irony that Bridget didn’t run into Mrs Churchill, they must have just missed each other.

[camgarsky4]

Lots of folks running around Second Street that day, that's for sure.