Speculation - The Case Against John Morse

[camgarsky4]

Without a semi-viable motive, trying to pick and parse through testimony inconsistences or newspaper reports seems like an exercise in madness.

Please push back on any of the groupings below......or push for validation. Frankly, protecting his nieces is the only motive that has even a modicum of traction for me.

Possible Motives:
Protecting the interests of his sisters two daughters (Emma & Lizzie)
1) Lizzie and Emma testified that they learned about Andrew's 'old' WILL from Morse.
2) Someone told the sisters about the Fourth St. transaction. Perhaps Morse had a big mouth when it came to his nieces.
3) Would a stable person participate in double homicide over the degree of money his nieces would inherit? Even the most negative reports were
that that the sisters would get $25k each in a new WILL.
4) None of the background reporting about Morse suggest he was a two-faced individual. Appeared to be someone who communicated directly.

Commonly Suggested Motives that have zero basis to support:
Retribution for Andrew reneging on a business arrangement
1) Emma sold the upper Swansea farm (80 acres) before the trial, likely to raise funds for the attorney's. Morse could have purchased if interested.
2) No other known basis in support of this motive theory.

Eliminated Motives:
Direct financial gain.
1) Morse had no reason to expect he would benefit from Andrew's estate settlement.
2) Morse owned two farms (~140 acres) in Hastings, Iowa. The farms contained a nice home and outbuilding.
3) Similar to Emma, Morse didn't display an interest in a 'upscale' lifestyle...neither before or after the trial.
4) Emma sold the upper Swansea farm (80 acres) before the trial, likely to raise funds for the attorney's. Morse could have purchased if interested.

[Lorcan]

I don't have the exact info yet, but if we could figure out definitively the answers to the following, it would be helpful:

1. What exactly is the source of the story that Morse remembered the badge or hat number of the driver, etc.?

2. What exactly is the source of the story that Dr. Bowen was at the Webosset St. house and how is it contradicted in the Jennings Journals?

3. Several witnesses described the house as not being overrun with crowds immediately (the boss at the stable, and I think 1 or 2 other witnesses), so can we pin down any timelines that would shed light on what Morse saw upon arrival?

4. Morse was a livestock dealer in the East. It was far, far, less expensive to raise animals out West then ship them East. Morse didn't need a farm, he only temporarily needed a barn and a field to show and sell the animals he sent East. He already had those facilities in Westport. He could borrow/rent/give a cut to many farmers for a weekend sale of livestock. I don't think the Swansea farm was a motive for Morse.

OK, now that I did the opposite of make a case against Morse, I feel like that might give us a solid foundation to actually make a good faith effort to make a case against Morse.

His relationship with Lizzie seems nonexistent. His relationship with Emma was better, but I don't think he pushed Andrew with advice in how to give his daughters the social opportunities that were necessary for them to join their cousins in The Hill's social circle. Andrew's sister and Hiram, I think, might have tried and failed at some point.

My impression is that Morse actually admired Andrew's business success and he saw him as a friend. Perhaps they had similar ambitions regarding financial success and they might have felt they understood each other better than the people around them understood their motivations and worldview.

I'll try to think of some scenarios of how Morse could be the lone killer or part of a conspiracy, but like Camgarsky, I can see no motive and actually see some motives going in the other direction - Morse being better off with Andrew alive.

[camgarsky4]

Here are some extracts that I've previously posted on the John Morse thread.

Phillips book published in 1940's was the source of the badge and street car #'s. As you may know, he did not finish the book, that was done by his nephew I believe. In jennings journals itself (Phillips case journal) there are many Morse snippets, but none mention badge #'s.

----------------------
Per Jennings Journals pg186-187, Dr. Bowen's coachman, James Leonard stated that at 11am, the doctor and he "left William St. top of street clock was striking 11. Got to house about 11:05 or 10. ". That timing is in line with Bowen's various testimonies of when he arrived at the Borden's.

Williams Street is south of the Borden house, the opposite direction compared to the Emery home.

Morse said he left the Emery's around 11:20 and this was corroborated by Mrs. Emery and his niece. Also the downstairs neighbor (Mrs. Kingsley) heard Morse as he left. Conductor Kennedy saw the priests on the street car at 11:22, which would match up pretty closely with Morse leaving the emery's at 11:20.

So unless the reporter got the information twisted and he was instead told that Bowen and Morse almost intercepted each other at the Emery when Morse arrived at the Emery's in the early morning, the article seems to be in error.

-----------------------------------------------------

I've been working to construct all the details answering when Morse got back, when Bowen got back, who let Morse in the house, did Sawyer really greet him coming from the gate, etc. But there is so much information that I was spinning. So decided to post pieces at a time. I hope folks read and react. Push back on my interpretations of the information. Or agree. Either works wonderfully!

When did John Morse arrive back at the Borden home the morning of the murders?

Back to the initial topic....there is solid anecdotal evidence that Morse arrived at the Borden home by 11:35 a.m. This would have been just minutes after Dr. Bowen had returned from sending the telegram to Emma in Fairhaven. This time is contrary to most published time estimates that have Morse arriving at the Borden home at 10:40 or slightly later. For example, an author I respect, William Spencer, places the time of Morse's return "around 11:50". I think that time estimate is at least 10-15 minutes off.

Timeline:
Left Emery house close to 11:20 (Morse checked his watch).
Streetcar seen near intersection of Second & Pleasant at 11:22 (Conductor Kennedy checked his watch).
Morse deboarded street car at the intersection of Second & Pleasant 11:25 (guesstimate).
After getting off the street car, Morse walked the 6 minutes to 92 Second St., arriving between 11:31-11:35 (walk time per google maps).
Screenshot 2023-12-08 183744.png
Source: Morse preliminary hearing testimony. Page 244
Q. You think you left (the Emery home) about 20 minutes past eleven?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. How do you fix that time?
A. I looked at my watch about going back to dinner.

Q. How did you come back?
A. From Mr. Emery’s? On the car.
Q. The car that comes down Pleasant street?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. That would take you where?
A. I got off the corner of Pleasant and Second streets.
Q. You went right up home?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did you see any crowds upon the street when you came up?
A. Nothing that attracted my attention.

Source: Fall River Daily Evening News. August 5, 1892. Page 8.
“…...Mr. Morse’s story has, however, been confirmed, so far as the priests being on a car is concerned, by Conductor Kennedy of the car going east, who says he passed the car with the priests on the hill by the Pocasset engine house, about where Mr. Morse took the car, and that he took its time, and it was just 22 minutes after 11 o’clock.”

My comments: If there is anyone who's time I trust the most, it is the streetcar conductors. Just like with modern public transportation, credibility and success are all about timeliness. My guess is that the conductors were constantly 'clocking' each other and themselves to ensure hitting their route schedules. Kennedy's car passed the 'priests' car ON THE HILL BY THE POCASSET ENGINE HOUSE. As you can see from the map, the engine house is one block north of the intersection which Morse deboarded his streetcar. So 11:22 was darn near when Morse started his walk. I've added 3 minutes (11:25) to account for the car getting to the intersection, stopping and Morse getting behind some folks to get off the car.

Related sidenote: William Spencer in his book "Case Against Lizzie Borden", page 62 misidentifies the streetcar conductor who saw Morse's streetcar the morning of August 4. The following is from Spencer's book...."A few days later, Conductor Timothy Sullivan told police he recalled seeing Morse on the car." Timothy Sullivan was the streetcar conductor who saw Andrew around 10a.m. on Main Street. He had no known connection to Morse's return from the Emery's home.

[Lorcan]

Excellent work on bringing all that together. I agree Spencer is wrong about 11:50. Even if Morse walked the entire 1.1 miles, that would only take 20 minutes at the median healthy adult walking pace of 3.2 mph.

In 1892, streetcars operated by companies like the Fall River Street Railway were transitioning from horse-drawn power to electricity.

Depending on the specific line and location within the city, the average operating pace of a Fall River streetcar in 1892 fell into these ranges:

In Congested Downtown/City Streets: 4 to 6 miles per hour (roughly a 10 to 15-minute-per-mile pace). In busy areas, electric streetcars were legally restricted or physically slowed by pedestrian traffic, horses, and wagons to speeds not much faster than walking or a light jog.

On Outer Districts/Open Lines: 8 to 12 miles per hour (roughly a 5 to 7.5-minute-per-mile pace).

[Inspector]

Good catch on the Spencer error. I still can’t figure if he thinks Bridget spent another night at 92 Second Street after the murders or not.
Anyway, the only thing that really bothers me about Morse, besides his peculiar activities post crimes, is the relatively short distance from the Emery’s to the Borden house.
However, how does one dispute the timing of the priests sighting ?
This means, if Morse is guilty, he somehow worked around the alibi or had an informant, which seems unlikely considering the logistical complexity, and lack of motive.
Rich Little’s theory is probably one of the weakest, and filled with speculation disguised as fact,
Like Lorcan says, it seems Andrew and John got along fine, he was always welcome, and no evidence of arguments between the two.
I do wish we knew what Emma has discussed or disclosed to John and vice versa in all their letters, women love to talk…

Anyone can present theory as fact….doesn’t make it so!

I have a theory that Lizzie wanted Emma’s room to eavesdrop through the keyhole…it’s just a theory, but I feel whether purposely or accidentally. Lizzie heard too much through the keyhole.

[Lorcan]

Here is Bridget's testimony from the Trial:

Q. Did you remain at the house after the homicide any length of time?
A. I staid there. I went out Thursday night and slept out in Mrs. Miller's girl's house, and Friday night I slept in the house.
Q. You mean Mrs. Miller's house with the girl?
A. With the servant. I slept with her Thursday night.
Q. On Thursday night?
A. Yes, sir, and I came back Friday morning, staid there all through the time and did the work and Friday night I went out and came back and slept in the house.
Q. In the Borden house?
A. Yes, sir, and Saturday night I left for good as I thought, and came back Monday and Mr. Miller said I should not leave the house until he came and took me out.
Q. You did not stay there Saturday night?
A. No, sir, or Sunday night.
Q. You were not there Sunday morning?
A. No, sir.
Q. Were you there Sunday at all for any part of the day?
A. No, sir. I came there Monday morning.

That sounds to me like Friday night was the only night after the murders that Bridget actually slept in the Borden house.

[Lorcan]

This will need to be verified but some interesting tidbits. Sourced from a website named Famous Trials and summarized by ChatGPT.

Mr. Miller was Southard Harrison Miller, an elderly and prominent Fall River builder and contractor who lived diagonally across Second Street from the Bordens in the large Bowen-Miller double house. He was a longstanding intimate friend of Andrew Borden, had employed Andrew as a carpenter during the 1840s, and had built the house at 92 Second Street in which the murders occurred. His daughter Phebe was married to Dr. Seabury Bowen.

Miller and his household appear to have taken a protective interest in Bridget. On the day of the murders, Bridget went into Miller’s house after discovering that both Bordens were dead. Miller called Alexander Coggeshall over and had Bridget repeat what had happened. Bridget then slept Thursday night with the Miller household’s servant, and John Morse went across to Miller’s house to fetch her on Friday morning.

The most defensible inference is that Miller was acting as Bridget’s protector or escort. She was a young domestic servant who had just become a central witness in a sensational double murder. The street had been filled with crowds, police and reporters, and the Miller household had already provided her with refuge. Miller apparently did not want her leaving the Borden house alone. The evidence does not establish that he was acting under police orders or that he was taking her to court that Monday. Police records specifically say that Officer Doherty escorted Bridget to court the following day, Tuesday, August 9.

[Lorcan]

I think the witness statements might have some material for the John Morse speculation. Here are a couple I ran across.

F. L. Edson, Constable
J. V. Morse testified that one ax and three hatchets were taken from the house, put in a light
colored bag of coarse material, and carried away. This is false.


GEORGE F. SEAVER
August 11, 1892.

Early Thursday morning, Aug. 11, went to Luther’s Corners, Swansea, with Marshal Hilliard, to the farm owned by the late Andrew J. Borden, and had an interview with Frederick Eddy and Alfred C. Johnson, who have been employed on that place, Mr. Eddy for sixteen years, and Johnson for nine.

Frederick Eddy made the following statement. “John V. Morse came over to this house Wednesday evening Aug. 3, between seven and eight o’clock.

He drove a horse and top buggy; said it was a stable team. He came in the house and brought a rattan basket, took out three pears and laid on the table, said he brought them over from the Borden house.

He said Mr. Borden sent him over to see how I was, and get the eggs. Said Mr. Borden was coming with him, but he, his wife and Lizzie were taken sick last night, and he couldn’t come.

He said he stopped to supper at Mr. Vinnecum’s, who lives a short distance from here.

I said to him, after he got his eggs, “How about the oxen Mr. Davis of South Dartmouth was to have to use?” “I am going back and see Mr. Borden, and think we will make arrangements to get them back over Saturday morning”, was the reply.

Mr. Morse stayed here perhaps ten or fifteen minutes. Since hearing of the murder, it has seemed to me a singular coincidence that he should have come over that night for the eggs, for, had he not, I should have taken the train and gone to Mr. Borden’s Thursday morning, arriving at the house about quarter to eleven or eleven.

I have seen axes and hatchets at Mr. Borden’s. The large hatchet was comparatively new. When it was bought, it was brought over here, and ground sharp. After being ground, Mr. Borden was here, and it was carried out and put on the wall by the gate for him to carry home. When he went away be said, I wont take the hatchet. You’ll be coming over in a day or two, and you bring it over; which I did.

I did not use axes or hatchets at Mr. Borden’s, as a Swede, Andrew (Alfred?) Johnson, went to Mr. Borden’s when he was not busy here, and did all the work, cutting the wood, cleaning up the yard, etc.

When I go to Fall River with hay or anything for market, I have always been in the habit of going to Mr. Borden’s house to dinner. Sometimes I have eaten dinner with them; often I have not got there until after they were through dinner.

Alfred (Andrew?) Johnson made the following statement. “Have worked for Mr. Borden nine years. Have done his work at the house, cutting wood and cleaning up the yard, when not busy at the farm. Think the two last times I cut wood was early in the Spring, and again just before planting.

Mr. Borden had two axes, a single hatchet, and a shop or bench hatchet. The bench hatchet has never been used much since it was sharpened. I ground it over here to the farm in the early Spring. The hatchet and axes were always kept in one place, in a box in the wood room at the left of the furnace. Never found them in any other place, and always put them back after using them, as Mr. Borden was particular about having one place for all tools. When I have been working at Mr. Borden’s, I have stayed there.

[Inspector]

Thanks Lorcan. I think you’re correct about Bridget staying Friday night. Rich Little (for one) claims she never did sleep there again.
I personally couldn’t remember, and Spencer seems to say both…lol
I imagine Bridget didn’t get any sleep at all Friday night.

[camgarsky4]

It is intriguing that by Morse picking up the farm eggs on Wednesday, it avoided visitors coming to the Borden house around noon, and possibly afterwards. What isn't explained is the frequency of the egg deliveries.

Personally, I dismiss the idea that Morse (or any killer) knew that AJB's murder would occur at 11am (give or take). They had no control of Andrew's length of walk and a simple extended conversation would blow up the murder plan. But, Eddy mentions that he often had lunch with the Borden's and stayed a bit afterwards. That is more provocative because it creates an uncontrollable factor for the killer (if the murders were preplanned). By removing the need for the visit, the uncontrollable factor is neutralized.

Even if Andrew had joined Morse going to Swansea, the same outcome would have happened....the eggs would have been retrieved Wednesday and not delivered on Thursday.

That forces us to explain why Thursday had to be 'the day'. Only thing I can think of is the speculation that Bridget had Thursday afternoon's free.

Something to remember, Bridget testified she heard Andrew invite Morse back to the house for lunch. So we know Morse didn't invent that tidbit.

[Lorcan]

Thinking about John Vinnicum Morse visiting the Vinnicum farm, when Morse needed a barn or field to show and sell his livestock, he had another option open to him. It seems like John had pre-existing options in Swansea and Westport. Plus, I bet there were a lot of farmers who would be willing to take a fee to hold a livestock auction. Farming itself is very seasonal for cashflow and renting out a barn and a field for a couple of days would probably be jumped on by many farmers who could make the situation work.

[Lorcan]

Here is an effort to fact check the Miller-Bowen connections:

From Google: This information is entirely accurate. Here is the simplified breakdown:

Southard Miller: He was a well-known local builder who lived across the street, built the Borden home, and was a long-time friend and former employer of Andrew Borden.

The Bowen Connection: Miller's daughter was married to Dr. Seabury Bowen (the family doctor). They lived together in the double house opposite the Bordens.

Bridget's Refuge: After the murders, a terrified Bridget Sullivan did take refuge at the Miller house, sleeping in their servant's quarters on Thursday night. John Morse came to fetch her the next morning.

Alexander Coggeshall: Bridget did repeat her account of the events to Coggeshall at Miller's house shortly after the tragedy.

Court Escort: The text correctly notes she wasn't taken to court on Monday. The official inquest began on Tuesday, August 9, which is when Officer Doherty officially escorted her to protect her from the crowds.

Verdict: The text is historically sound. It correctly concludes that Miller was simply acting as a protective neighbor for a traumatized young witness.

[camgarsky4]

What would be the basis for thinking John needed a barn, a field, a anything?

[Lorcan]

I think he was transporting them by train and he would need someplace to display them to the buyers so they could be inspected for health and quality. I was envisioning John taking orders but also looking for price differentials so he could buy cheap out west and sell for higher in Massachusetts to make the investment of transportation via train worthwhile. This is just an assumption. Perhaps people were prepared to take the animals directly from the train, but I think bringing all the livestock to a farm and auctioning them off would be the better business. I could be wrong.

[camgarsky4]

Before we explore this direction, would be good to identify and post information that gives credence to the idea that Morse was still active in the horse trading business. I am not familiar with any information like that, but doesn't mean there isn't any.

[Lorcan]

Good call, Camgarsky. Some of it might be rumors.

From the Inquest:
Q. What is your place of residence, Mr. Morse?
A. For the last year it has been South Dartmouth; my real home is in the West.
Q. Wherebouts in South Dartmouth?
A. William A. Davis.
Q. I shall have to ask you many questions.
A. I will answer any questions.
Q. What is your business?
A. When I am home, farming.
Q. Here?
A. Nothing particular. I have been helping Mr. Davis some in the meat business he is in there.
Q. Have you had any connection with the horse business?
A. Not recently. I brought some horses here when I came two years and a half ago.
Q. All sold out now?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Have you had any dealings in horses since then?
A. A little along occasionally, not to amount to anything.
Q. What relation is Mr. Davis to you?
A. None. Years before I went West, I worked for them in the meat business. I have always kept up correspondence since. It seems like home to me, and I like to stay there. Isaac C. Davis, his son, is in the meat business with him. The old man cannot see now, has a cancer. I stay there with them.


Begin Rant

Q. Have you had any dealings in horses since then?
A. A little along occasionally, not to amount to anything.

Lizzie and others give this type of non-answer and the lawyers seem to let it slide. My INTJ brain screams [THAT IS NOT AN ANSWER!!!!!!] when ever I hear a witness say something like, "No, not to amount to anything." The answer is actually YES! And here is exactly how much. That type of thing grinds my gears as Peter Griffin of Family Guy would say.

End Rant

From the Preliminary Hearing:
Q. Whose farm did you go over to?
A. Mr. Vinnecum’s and Mr. Borden’s both.
Q. Mr. Borden has a place over there?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did you have some business of Mr. Borden’s over there?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. I do not care to go into the particulars of it. You had some business relating to Mr. Borden at the farm?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Something about hiring a man, was it not?
A. I went more particularly over there that day to see about some cattle I bought of him. I thought I would make arrangements to take them.
Q. Mr. Borden knew you was going over?
A. Yes Sir, I invited him to go with me.
Q. How did you find Mr. Borden’s health that day?
A. He was sick, indisposed, laying on the lounge.

There was the oxen from the witness statement:
I said to him, after he got his eggs, “How about the oxen Mr. Davis of South Dartmouth was to have to use?” “I am going back and see Mr. Borden, and think we will make arrangements to get them back over Saturday morning”, was the reply.

That's all I can find. I think there was some speculation about some mustangs or broncos and some cowboys who came over with them, but that could be just rumors.

[camgarsky4]

There are some newspaper articles on the general topic. I'll find and post.

[Lorcan]

I'll try to find the newspaper story...

A newspaper report attributed to State Detective George F. Seaver said that, before the murders, he had heard that a large shipment of wild Western horses had arrived in Westport consigned to John V. Morse. Seaver reportedly went there on August 2, 1892, because he wanted to see the mustangs being lassoed.

The account described:

* Approximately 80 wild horses in a field.
* About 12 horses already sold at auction.
* The animals as consigned to Morse at South Dartmouth.
* Western horse handlers or traders encamped in the Westport area.

“Consigned to Morse” does not necessarily mean that Morse owned all the horses. He could have been acting as an importer, sales agent, broker, or local representative for their owners.

This reporting appears inconsistent with Morse’s restrained inquest testimony. Under oath, he said that he had brought horses East about two and a half years earlier, that those horses had all been sold, and that his subsequent dealings in horses were only occasional and “not to amount to anything.”

[Lorcan]

It's covered in this thread:

Jeffery's Theory
viewtopic.php?t=168

The actual newspaper we are looking for is:
New Bedford Daily Mercury, Tuesday, August 9, 1892
Interview with State Detective George F. Seaver

I couldn't find it but I ran across Seaver's obit.

[camgarsky4]

Both are fuzzy, but click on and you can zoom and read.

Click on to enlarge
New Bedford Standard Times August 19, 1892

Screenshot 2026-07-19 150328.png

Screenshot 2026-07-19 151537.png

[Lorcan]

Thanks, I did a little light image editing without AI.

[camgarsky4]

I can't find any articles from the NB Mercury.

I went ahead and read thru the "Jeffrey's Theory" thread that Lorcan provided the link to above. Newspaper articles that don't provide an actual quote of who identified the horses as Morse's are provided. Seaver doesn't say who actually told him that tidbit.

Of most important note is that all these articles and police investigation of the Westport horse guys was BEFORE John was interviewed at the Inquest and definitely before the Inquest ended. Yet except for the questions posted above, Knowlton didn't ask Morse anything specific or try to nail him for lying about how active he was. More telling....it seems the newspaper reporters didn't pursue this line of questioning either. The competitive nature of covering this case would have driven some reporter to keep pursuing this lead if it had any juice.

I don't think the horses Seaver mentions were Morse's....but of course, we have no way to state that as a fact. That said, I can't imagine how selling horses would create a situation where Morse would feel compelled to slaughter two people he knew. That John wanted to buy land to put the horses on is silly (as Lorcan has noted) because that would eliminate any and all profit for a very transactional, quick turnover type of business.

If Andrew wouldn't let the horses graze on his Swansea farms, how in the world would that result in Andrew and his wife needing to die. If Morse did the murdering, it wasn't a case of spontaneous rage. Between each of the chats they had those couple days, Morse had plenty of time to cool off if he was pissed.

[Lorcan]

I think we may have exhausted the classic rumors that Rich Little includes in his theory. There is no evidence of an argument and to the contrary, there is evidence that Morse, Andrew, and Abby were all spending time with each other talking and eating meals together with the added confirmation Bridget overhearing Andrew invite John back for the noon meal.

I think Harrington might be next, but that's very thin. Too bad we don't have Teenabee or Rich or any of the authors who think Lizzie is innocent on the board regularly. I'm running out of all plausible ways that Lizzie wasn't the killer.

[TeenaBee]

I have never believed that Morse could be involved, but I have always been curious as to why Arthur Phillips was still looking suspiciously at John Morse even decades letter. I am thinking of the letter I have seen posted in various places that he wrote to George Robinson's son Homans 'Robinson in 1939, where he says he believes Morse "knew all about the murder." He doesn't make a great case against Morse in that letter, but interesting that he was so convinced. And of course I have read that Jennings sent the Pinkerton detective to Iowa to look into him. Why?

I think you have swayed me Mr. Camgarsky that Morse arrived back at the house much earlier than he 9or Spencer) believed. I before thought that the reason he didn't see any people in the yard after he arrived was because if he arrived at 11:50, that would have been just minutes after Fleet arrived and had the yard cleared. But you make a better case for an earlier arrival.

I think those like me who lean toward Lizzie's innocence (because its just as implausible that she committed the murders as it is implausible that someone else did it), sometimes try to reach for another suspect like Morse because at least he is a piece on the board. An intruder is just a blank nothing, can't make any arguments for him, only against him. But in my mind if Lizzie truly was innocent, then it had to be someone probably known by the family but never seriously considered by anyone. Sometime I run across the name of someone on the periphery of the case and wonder if that person is a possibility...

[Lorcan]

Nice to hear from you, Teenabee. If you have a suggestion as to the next suspect for us to speculate on, that would be fun.

[Inspector]

I have wondered if Seaver showed up because of the train load auction, following JVM, but y’all’s arguments dissuade me,
Reportedly a couple of Morse’s Westport partners
(possible suspects) showed up at the Borden house shortly after the murders to see John.
Edmund Pearson had a rumor in his early study.
Lizzie told Morse to clear her room of certain things.

[TeenaBee]

Oooh, I haven't read Pearson's earlier work yet, just his Trial of Lizzie Borden. Studies in Murder is on my bookshelf, waiting, I might go grab it!

Lorcan, I wish I had a good potential suspect to focus on, but I haven't really gone on a specific hunting trip for that. But as an example, it was recently a topic of discussion in this forum about why Andrew and Abby didn't go to Swansea as planned, and while John Morse (on the stand) and Mrs. Brigham (to the Boston Post) and Hiram Borden (to Arthur Phillips) all said they were told by Andrew and Abby or Lizzie it was because the woman, Mrs. Vinnicum, who normally kept Abby company in Swansea couldn't commit, one person said something differnt. Cyrus Rounseville, a bank vice president, was in a newspaper saying Andrew told him there was "trouble" in the family and so he didn't feel like going to Swansea. (Although he put it more mildly in the Jennings Journal as a "family affair."). Camgarsky said Rounseville was on the witness list but not called, so that got me curious, why was he the only one who gave a different version than others? To my knowledge, no one else said there was trouble in the family that summer.

So I Googled Rounseville but didn't find anything much. So no reason really to suspect him, just a little nagging question that if I was a detective working that case at the time would have made me ask a few more questions of the man rather than take what he said at face value because it so well fit their preferred theory of the crime. (Of course I have no idea what they did or didn't ask him) One day I am going to research all the pallbearers, because I have obviously seen too many movies in which the killer is sort of hanging around the edges being "helpful" haha

PS My Google alert reminded me today is Lizzie's birthday. And soon comes the murder anniversary, I have made plans to be in Fall River this year for that! I am excited but so wish the Historical Society was open --

[camgarsky4]

Inspector - The Davis's visited John at the Borden's after the murders. They were the family Morse was staying with in South Dartmouth and were pretty tight. They visited to show their support for John. They gave a couple quotes to the papers.

[Inspector]

Yes, it was the younger Davis, and a man named Hughes or Holmes (can’t recall) but they were supposedly at the Westport auction and visited John together which may have caused suspicion.
I think it’s all in Jeffrey’s theory, but I can’t come up with a good motive for John.

[camgarsky4]

Opinion Summary:
We know a decent amount about John Morse's life. Not a ton of the day-to-day details, but there aren't any big gapping mysterious voids in his timeline. A private investigator (Hanscom) and newspaper reporters attempted to dig into his background, but found nothing starling. He had a large extended family, yet no ugly family secrets surfaced, back then or since. He lived with the Davis family early and late in his life, lived with relatives off and on in Illinois and Iowa. We have reports of his social interactions with his New Bedford buddies in his later years.

I might buy into Morse wishing to protect the interests of his sisters children, Lizzie and Emma. But it would be irrational to extend that natural instinct to committing or authorizing double homicide (We have no evidence that the sisters were being physically harmed by their parents).

At no point, not even as a pure rumor, do we learn of even the tiniest snippet that implies Morse had an anger management issue or was homicidally violent.

Years ago, I tried to manufacture a motive for John by digging into how Morse might have blamed Andrew for his sisters death 30 years prior. Nada.

Without new information which provides us with a legitimate motive, I can't dream up a case for Morse's guilt as an active or supportive participant in murder.

Whether he suspected the family tensions might be more deadly than a 'normal' family is of no relevance. The question we all want to answer is if Lizzie Borden was an active participant in the murder of her parents and, in my opinion, identifying an alternative and plausible suspect is essential to view her innocent. John Morse is not that suspect.

[Lorcan]

I agree about there being no evidence of John's direct involvement or even prior knowledge. I additionally have a huge problem with (much more than anyone else on the board, I think) with the nature of the hatchet wounds and even the use of a hatchet if John was Abby's killer.

[TeenaBee]

Yes I see no justifiable grounds to suspect Morse either. I am curious Lorcan about what you mean about the hatchet wounds. That if John Morse (or perhaps any man with more upper body strength) had been the wielding the hatchet, it likely would have been a much cleaner and more forceful killing? I can see the merit of that.

Also curious about what you mean Camgarsky when you say that identifying an alternative and plausible suspect is essential to viewing Lizzie innocent. I do agree with the plausible part, an intruder has to be made at least somewhat plausible. I do think the argument for the implausibility of an intruder rests on solid ground in the Borden murders, difficult to see HOW an intruder could have pulled it off undetected, unless of course Lizzie had a co-conspirator. Then again, plausibility is often in the eye of the beholder, and implausible and impossible are two different things.... But why in your opinion would a specific identity for an intruder make Lizzie any more or less innocent? As I understand it, almost half of all murders are never solved, a suspect never identified by police.

[camgarsky4]

I underlined the words "in my opinion" to allay your question. But since you ask....

In my opinion, the circumstantial case against Lizzie is very strong. Start with two basic facts: 1) Lizzie and Bridget were the only people known to be on the property when the murders occurred. 2) Lizzie and Emma benefited to the tune of $millions (2026 values) each from Andrew's death.

Bridget doesn't have a discernible motive and was seen washing the windows on at last 5 occasions. She washed the windows between the murders.
Emma was staying with friends ~20 miles away when the murders occurred.

I believe we can state as fact that Lizzie is the only person identified who has both a strong motive and the known opportunity to be actively involved in the murders. Those two facts, accompanied by the plethora of circumstantial evidence, have resulted with Lizzie being the reigning Prime Suspect since August 4, 1892.

In my opinion, Lizzie will never be viewed as innocent by most until she loses the title, 'The Prime Suspect'.

For that to occur, we need to identify a new 'Prime Suspect' or, at a minimum, a 'Co-Prime Suspect'.

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For the record, I spent the first couple years of my interest in this case wanting to be the person who could prove Lizzie innocent. So the concept that information is interpreted based on existing bias doesn't work in my case because I now believe she was an active participant even though that wasn't my original goal.

[Lorcan]

Teenabee,

Yes, my objections to John Morse or any adult male of average or greater strength being Abby's killer are:

1. He could have easily and silently killed her with his bare hands.

2. The number of blows, the first two very poorly aimed blows, the 5 poorly aimed blows when she already had so much damage her skull was certainly stationary, and the sheer number of blows all point to real rage, inexperience, and relatively low upper body strength.

My objection to any hired or professional killer are obvious. No way a professional or experienced close combat killer would kill her with a hatchet with that level of incompetence and risk of discovery. All she had to do was scream or make enough noise hitting the floor for Lizzie to hear.]

One thing I haven't considered until now is perhaps someone like John didn't want to risk signs of a struggle - scratches, and bruising, etc. That would make a hatchet more plausible. I'd still get hung up on all the poorly aimed strikes and strikes so weak they didn't penetrate the skull after the skull was a stationary target.