Investigative Improv
Moderator: Adminlizzieborden
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camgarsky4
- Posts: 1951
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- Real Name: George Schuster
Re: Investigative Improv
Goodbye Lizzie Borden, Robert Sullivan, pg. 34-5:
"Parenthetically, one of the great mysteries of the Borden case was, and remains, that Sarah Whitehead, beloved half-sister of Abby Borden, was never inquired of at any time in the police investigation of the murders. Indeed, only Bridget, and she during the first frenzy following the discovery of Andrew's murder, thought it would be logical to ask if Mrs. Whitehead knew where Abby could have gone. Also, by all accounts---including Mrs. Potter's when I discussed the murders with her---Abby Borden had few if any friends other than Mrs. Whitehead, and none other than Mrs. Whitehead would be likely to write a note to Mrs. Borden in the event of sickness. And still further, when the note from the "sick friend" was supposed to have been sent, Sarah Whitehead was hale and hearty and was, in fact, that day on the sail to Rocky Point to attend the police clambake, about which so much has been written. All in all, it is incredible that a thorough examination of the total transcript reveals that Sarah Whitehead was never called to the witness stand by the prosecution. A distressing footnote was supplied by Mrs. Abby Potter, who told me:
'On the morning of 4 August, the day of the murders, my mother [Mrs. Sarah Whitehead],
planning to attend the policemen's annual picnic at Rocky Point, was making arrangements for the care of my younger brother and myself. George was to go to [another aunt's house], and I was to spend the day with Aunt Abby at 92 Second Street. At the last moment there was a change in plans, and I was sent with my brother to [my other aunt's] house, which was next door to the home of Marshal Hilliard in another section of Fall River.
In the late afternoon while I was helping Aunt Lucy wash windows, Marshal Hilliard returned home, and standing in the yard, informed Aunt Lucy of Aunt Abby's murder. The shock of the news was so great that Aunt Lucy dropped the window on my hand.' "
"Parenthetically, one of the great mysteries of the Borden case was, and remains, that Sarah Whitehead, beloved half-sister of Abby Borden, was never inquired of at any time in the police investigation of the murders. Indeed, only Bridget, and she during the first frenzy following the discovery of Andrew's murder, thought it would be logical to ask if Mrs. Whitehead knew where Abby could have gone. Also, by all accounts---including Mrs. Potter's when I discussed the murders with her---Abby Borden had few if any friends other than Mrs. Whitehead, and none other than Mrs. Whitehead would be likely to write a note to Mrs. Borden in the event of sickness. And still further, when the note from the "sick friend" was supposed to have been sent, Sarah Whitehead was hale and hearty and was, in fact, that day on the sail to Rocky Point to attend the police clambake, about which so much has been written. All in all, it is incredible that a thorough examination of the total transcript reveals that Sarah Whitehead was never called to the witness stand by the prosecution. A distressing footnote was supplied by Mrs. Abby Potter, who told me:
'On the morning of 4 August, the day of the murders, my mother [Mrs. Sarah Whitehead],
planning to attend the policemen's annual picnic at Rocky Point, was making arrangements for the care of my younger brother and myself. George was to go to [another aunt's house], and I was to spend the day with Aunt Abby at 92 Second Street. At the last moment there was a change in plans, and I was sent with my brother to [my other aunt's] house, which was next door to the home of Marshal Hilliard in another section of Fall River.
In the late afternoon while I was helping Aunt Lucy wash windows, Marshal Hilliard returned home, and standing in the yard, informed Aunt Lucy of Aunt Abby's murder. The shock of the news was so great that Aunt Lucy dropped the window on my hand.' "
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Lorcan
- Posts: 396
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Re: Investigative Improv
Excellent find! And what an alibi if she was on a boat with dozens of witnesses or at Rocky Point surrounded by the majority of the Fall River Police Force.
Just picked up a first edition in near fine condition, $24. I'm building my Borden bookshelf.
Just picked up a first edition in near fine condition, $24. I'm building my Borden bookshelf.
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Inspector
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Re: Investigative Improv
It’s been so long since I’ve read Sullivan, but I thoroughly enjoyed his analysis. What an amazing story, and coincidence that Abby was supposed to visit her aunt at 92 Second Street on August 4th.
So many strange connections in the Borden case.
So many strange connections in the Borden case.
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camgarsky4
- Posts: 1951
- Joined: Sat Aug 01, 2020 8:05 pm
- Real Name: George Schuster
Re: Investigative Improv
Difficult to know how much confidence to place on the recollections of a 7 or 8 year old (Abby Potter in 1892). I really think Bridget would be aware if their was going to be a young lady spending the day at the Borden house. That morning Abby discussed lunch w/ Bridget and no mention of Abby coming.
On Wednesday they were still feeling poorly, so maybe that is when the change of plans was communicated to Sarah Whitehead. Still, it seems Bridget would be aware and would have mentioned to police.
Can't quite decide if I think the details of such arrangements would be shared with a young person and if they would accurately mentally capture and decades later recall correctly.
Otherwise, Abby coming over might have thrown quite the wrench in the plans of the killer, assuming the killing was decided upon by the time the day started.
On Wednesday they were still feeling poorly, so maybe that is when the change of plans was communicated to Sarah Whitehead. Still, it seems Bridget would be aware and would have mentioned to police.
Can't quite decide if I think the details of such arrangements would be shared with a young person and if they would accurately mentally capture and decades later recall correctly.
Otherwise, Abby coming over might have thrown quite the wrench in the plans of the killer, assuming the killing was decided upon by the time the day started.
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Lorcan
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Re: Investigative Improv
The Sullivan book arrived. It has a version of the newspaper 3D neighborhood map that I haven't seen before. In the interest of this site being the digital version of the FRHS trying to preserve things, here's a copy.
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camgarsky4
- Posts: 1951
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Re: Investigative Improv
every time I see a version of that 'birds eye view' of the neighborhood, I am struck with the remarkable talent of the artist.
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Lorcan
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Re: Investigative Improv
Well, it was worth a shot. The FBI records start in 1921, so there is nothing on Lizzie.
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camgarsky4
- Posts: 1951
- Joined: Sat Aug 01, 2020 8:05 pm
- Real Name: George Schuster
Re: Investigative Improv
I think its awfully cool that you gave it a try. Appreciate it!
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Inspector
- Posts: 528
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Re: Investigative Improv
I find it odd that no interviews took place during her lifetime.
Not necessarily about the crimes, but that no one was able or thought it of interest to find out more about her.
Not necessarily about the crimes, but that no one was able or thought it of interest to find out more about her.
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Lorcan
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Re: Investigative Improv
I found an article where her name was mentioned, but the photos no longer link:
https://lizzieandrewborden.com/hatcheto ... stigation/
https://lizzieandrewborden.com/hatcheto ... stigation/
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camgarsky4
- Posts: 1951
- Joined: Sat Aug 01, 2020 8:05 pm
- Real Name: George Schuster
Re: Investigative Improv
Inspector, that 'oddity' applies to basically the entire cast of the Borden murders. The Boston Post published an interview with Emma in 1913 and I think that's pretty much it.
We have a few odds and ends of insight that come up in the following decades, but very very little. The case went into a public interest deep freeze until Edmund Pearson wrote his real crime book, "Studies in Murder", published 1924, The Modern Library/Random House. Chapter 1 is the Borden Case.
Pearson does include references to fresh insights he received from people who had been around at the time of the murders. Mostly rumorish type of stuff, but not all of it.
This book brought the case back into the light, and then with Lizzie's death just three years later, public interest increased and Pearson's book had three more printings in the 1930's.
We have a few odds and ends of insight that come up in the following decades, but very very little. The case went into a public interest deep freeze until Edmund Pearson wrote his real crime book, "Studies in Murder", published 1924, The Modern Library/Random House. Chapter 1 is the Borden Case.
Pearson does include references to fresh insights he received from people who had been around at the time of the murders. Mostly rumorish type of stuff, but not all of it.
This book brought the case back into the light, and then with Lizzie's death just three years later, public interest increased and Pearson's book had three more printings in the 1930's.
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Lorcan
- Posts: 396
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Re: Investigative Improv
I tend to collect hardcovers, but with Pearson's book being 99 cents on Kindle, I picked it up.
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Lorcan
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Re: Investigative Improv
In investigating the Bridget photos with Camgarsky, I just so happened to have the Jeremy Brett Sherlock Holmes series on in the background and I saw Mrs. Hudson played by Rosalie Williams and I said, that solves the mystery of the helmet hair photo of Bridget. It seems Bridget preferred her hair all brushed back from her face and piled up on top.
Thinking about it, that is a very convenient hairstyle for a Victorian Era domestic servant who has to do a lot of housework.
Thinking about it, that is a very convenient hairstyle for a Victorian Era domestic servant who has to do a lot of housework.
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Inspector
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Re: Investigative Improv
Cam, I didn’t know he was the one who ignited the case, that’s interesting.
I might like to read his early account, and probably would enjoy his rumorish stuff for a change.
Maybe I’ll poke around on-line to find it.
I might like to read his early account, and probably would enjoy his rumorish stuff for a change.
Maybe I’ll poke around on-line to find it.
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Inspector
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Re: Investigative Improv
Lorcan. Your link was from our old forum friend—Harry Widdows.
He was a great researcher too.
He was a great researcher too.
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Inspector
- Posts: 528
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Re: Investigative Improv
Found the Pearson early writing, he says Lizzie is still in the kitchen when Bridget comes back in from vomiting, still engaged with eating breakfast, which we know is contrary to Bridget’s testimony.
He mentioned a feather duster, was it ever found?
I don’t remember if an actual feather duster was mentioned in testimony.
Not nitpicking, because I’m enjoying his writing, and like his writing style. Just getting started with it so thanks for the reference to him.
Something occurred while reading Pearson.
When Lizzie asked Bridget if she was going out that afternoon, and subsequently mentioned she may go out too, along with the Sargents coaxing (if you will) struck me as never before.
I feel Lizzie wanted to leave the house, and wanted Bridget away as well.
The plan was to blame an intruder, and leave the house vacant.
Of course I’m speculating.
If Morse found the victims, hmm…
This doesn’t make sense if they were expecting JVM , and Bridget had to cook lunch.
He mentioned a feather duster, was it ever found?
I don’t remember if an actual feather duster was mentioned in testimony.
Not nitpicking, because I’m enjoying his writing, and like his writing style. Just getting started with it so thanks for the reference to him.
Something occurred while reading Pearson.
When Lizzie asked Bridget if she was going out that afternoon, and subsequently mentioned she may go out too, along with the Sargents coaxing (if you will) struck me as never before.
I feel Lizzie wanted to leave the house, and wanted Bridget away as well.
The plan was to blame an intruder, and leave the house vacant.
Of course I’m speculating.
If Morse found the victims, hmm…
This doesn’t make sense if they were expecting JVM , and Bridget had to cook lunch.
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camgarsky4
- Posts: 1951
- Joined: Sat Aug 01, 2020 8:05 pm
- Real Name: George Schuster
Re: Investigative Improv
Pearson was very biased towards Lizzie's guilt, so keep that in mind. I don't think he intentionally misstated facts to support that perspective, but he still had that strong tilt. He needs to be fact checked as much as any other author. However, he did go to Fall River when some folks were still alive and he had extensive interaction with Frank Knowlton, Hosea's son.
The FRHS sells a book call the "Knowlton-Pearson Correspondence', which shares their ongoing, multi-year letter writing as Pearson worked on his books. I find the book to contain interesting insights, but I wouldn't necessarily consider purchasing and reading as key to studying the case. Buying it would be a personal decision depending on your degree of Lizzie addiction.
As far as the Sargent's chat, keeping what happened to Andrew mere moments later as the reference point, I can't come up with another plausible explanation for the purpose of Lizzie's Sargents/shopping suggestions. As many have speculated, it seems very possible that Bridget had that Thursday afternoon 'off' from work responsibilities and that is what Lizzie was leaning into. Bridget didn't respond with, 'but I can't, its against the rules', or such like.
As I constantly remind myself...all these events happened in rapid fire succession...so I try not to 'freeze in time' any particular comment or movement and extrapolate too much out of it and forget the context and setting.
The FRHS sells a book call the "Knowlton-Pearson Correspondence', which shares their ongoing, multi-year letter writing as Pearson worked on his books. I find the book to contain interesting insights, but I wouldn't necessarily consider purchasing and reading as key to studying the case. Buying it would be a personal decision depending on your degree of Lizzie addiction.
As far as the Sargent's chat, keeping what happened to Andrew mere moments later as the reference point, I can't come up with another plausible explanation for the purpose of Lizzie's Sargents/shopping suggestions. As many have speculated, it seems very possible that Bridget had that Thursday afternoon 'off' from work responsibilities and that is what Lizzie was leaning into. Bridget didn't respond with, 'but I can't, its against the rules', or such like.
As I constantly remind myself...all these events happened in rapid fire succession...so I try not to 'freeze in time' any particular comment or movement and extrapolate too much out of it and forget the context and setting.
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Lorcan
- Posts: 396
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Re: Investigative Improv
For anyone planning a vacation to Fall River, FRHS updated the website:
Due to a major infrastructure project, the FRHS Museum and Archive is closed and will reopen in Spring 2027 The Museum Shop is now CLOSED for the season.
It should be worth the wait.
Due to a major infrastructure project, the FRHS Museum and Archive is closed and will reopen in Spring 2027 The Museum Shop is now CLOSED for the season.
It should be worth the wait.
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Lorcan
- Posts: 396
- Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2025 2:22 pm
- Real Name: Paul Murphy
Re: Investigative Improv
Hosea Knowlton: And ate no cookies?
Lizzie Borden: I don't know whether I did or not. We had some molasses cookies. I don't know whether I ate any that morning or not.
I had some Archway iced molasses soft cookies and I got wondering what the molasses cookies were like in 1892.
1892 Molasses Cookies
Ingredients
• 1 cup dark or robust molasses (Do not use blackstrap, but look for a dark molasses like Grandma’s Molasses to mimic the unrefined flavor of the 1890s)
• 1/2 cup shortening or lard (Lard is historically accurate; shortening is a great modern substitute. Avoid butter if you want the exact 1892 texture, as butter adds water and makes cookies softer)
• 2 tablespoons warm water or milk
• 1 teaspoon baking soda
• 3 cups all-purpose flour
• 1 tablespoon ground ginger (19th-century recipes used a lot of ginger)
• 1 teaspoon ground cinnamon
• 1/2 teaspoon ground cloves
• 1/2 teaspoon salt
Instructions
Heat the base:
• In a medium saucepan, combine the molasses and the shortening/lard.
• Heat over medium low just until the shortening is entirely melted and the mixture is warm (do not boil).
• Remove from the heat.
Activate the soda:
• Dissolve the baking soda into the 2 tablespoons of warm water or milk, then stir it directly into the warm molasses mixture. It will foam and turn a lighter color. This is exactly what nineteenth-century bakers looked for.
Mix the dry ingredients:
• In a large bowl, whisk together the flour, ginger, cinnamon, cloves, and salt.
Combine:
• Pour the warm molasses mixture into the dry ingredients.
• Stir with a wooden spoon until a stiff dough forms.
Chill:
• Divide the dough into two disks, wrap them in plastic, and refrigerate for at least 1 hour. This dough is sticky and needs to be chilled to be rollable.
Roll and Cut:
• Preheat your oven to 350
• Lightly flour your counter.
• Roll the dough out to 1/4-inch thick.
• Cut into rounds using a simple circular cutter.
Bake:
• Place on a baking sheet lined with parchment paper.
• Bake for 8 to 10 minutes. (They will look dry on top.)
• Let them cool completely on a wire rack.
Unlike modern soft cookies, these will cool into a sturdy, slightly crisp, deeply spiced biscuit. They are fantastic for dunking into hot coffee.
Lizzie Borden: I don't know whether I did or not. We had some molasses cookies. I don't know whether I ate any that morning or not.
I had some Archway iced molasses soft cookies and I got wondering what the molasses cookies were like in 1892.
1892 Molasses Cookies
Ingredients
• 1 cup dark or robust molasses (Do not use blackstrap, but look for a dark molasses like Grandma’s Molasses to mimic the unrefined flavor of the 1890s)
• 1/2 cup shortening or lard (Lard is historically accurate; shortening is a great modern substitute. Avoid butter if you want the exact 1892 texture, as butter adds water and makes cookies softer)
• 2 tablespoons warm water or milk
• 1 teaspoon baking soda
• 3 cups all-purpose flour
• 1 tablespoon ground ginger (19th-century recipes used a lot of ginger)
• 1 teaspoon ground cinnamon
• 1/2 teaspoon ground cloves
• 1/2 teaspoon salt
Instructions
Heat the base:
• In a medium saucepan, combine the molasses and the shortening/lard.
• Heat over medium low just until the shortening is entirely melted and the mixture is warm (do not boil).
• Remove from the heat.
Activate the soda:
• Dissolve the baking soda into the 2 tablespoons of warm water or milk, then stir it directly into the warm molasses mixture. It will foam and turn a lighter color. This is exactly what nineteenth-century bakers looked for.
Mix the dry ingredients:
• In a large bowl, whisk together the flour, ginger, cinnamon, cloves, and salt.
Combine:
• Pour the warm molasses mixture into the dry ingredients.
• Stir with a wooden spoon until a stiff dough forms.
Chill:
• Divide the dough into two disks, wrap them in plastic, and refrigerate for at least 1 hour. This dough is sticky and needs to be chilled to be rollable.
Roll and Cut:
• Preheat your oven to 350
• Lightly flour your counter.
• Roll the dough out to 1/4-inch thick.
• Cut into rounds using a simple circular cutter.
Bake:
• Place on a baking sheet lined with parchment paper.
• Bake for 8 to 10 minutes. (They will look dry on top.)
• Let them cool completely on a wire rack.
Unlike modern soft cookies, these will cool into a sturdy, slightly crisp, deeply spiced biscuit. They are fantastic for dunking into hot coffee.
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Inspector
- Posts: 528
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Re: Investigative Improv
I see what mean about fact checking, but it’s always interesting and exciting to hear from those close to the time period. I don’t remember reading his early commentary on the case, and I was wondering who he felt was the murderer. so thank you for the information.
A little change of pace from Spencer.
A little change of pace from Spencer.
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Inspector
- Posts: 528
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Re: Investigative Improv
Couple things:
When Emma stated to Mayor Coughlin that they had tried to keep it from Lizzie that she was suspected, I fail to see how that relates to John being followed by the crowd,
Two separate issues in my mind.
Emma using plurality also means her, John, and possibly Alice, Harrington, and others also were seeing something didn’t add up, and they too must have suspected Lizzie, or figured it was coming.
What were they doing to “keep It” from Lizzie?
Were they consoling her, or pampering her while the whole time not believing her? Why keep it from her, why not discuss it with her?
I just feel something is being overlooked here in Emma’s words, that may give a clue.
When did Hiram Harrington have his interview with Lizzie, and was it definitely verified?
It could be closely related to Emma’s words, and he could have warned Emma of what might be coming.
When Emma stated to Mayor Coughlin that they had tried to keep it from Lizzie that she was suspected, I fail to see how that relates to John being followed by the crowd,
Two separate issues in my mind.
Emma using plurality also means her, John, and possibly Alice, Harrington, and others also were seeing something didn’t add up, and they too must have suspected Lizzie, or figured it was coming.
What were they doing to “keep It” from Lizzie?
Were they consoling her, or pampering her while the whole time not believing her? Why keep it from her, why not discuss it with her?
I just feel something is being overlooked here in Emma’s words, that may give a clue.
When did Hiram Harrington have his interview with Lizzie, and was it definitely verified?
It could be closely related to Emma’s words, and he could have warned Emma of what might be coming.
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Lorcan
- Posts: 396
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Re: Investigative Improv
Here are a couple photos (sized for the forum limits) of the Miller Bowen House (Dr. Seabury Bowen).
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Inspector
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Re: Investigative Improv
Great picture of the demo, haven’t seen it before.
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Inspector
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Re: Investigative Improv
Lorcan , can you enhance the older photo?
Looks like a door handle on the fence.
Looks like a door handle on the fence.
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Lorcan
- Posts: 396
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Re: Investigative Improv
I do enhance them with AI just for fun, but I am very mindful of the risk of polluting the evidence by releasing them publicly. I try to release AI enhancements very rarely and always labelled clearly. To give you an idea of what standard ChatGPT can be made to do with that old original photo, here is the fence section in question.
It actually saw what you saw, Inspector. I didn't prompt it other than telling it to enhance the photo and colorize it. The issue is that it is a statistical pattern matching of all the photos it was trained on and it will completely invent details that aren't really there sometimes. In this case, that actually does look like a door. Was it invented by the AI? We all have to judge for ourselves.
The risk of invention is shown by something that halfway looks like a kid in the yard behind the fence, but it also looks like a line of sight mixture of items that is just the kind of thing that can confuse an AI at this stage of its publicly released capabilities.
It actually saw what you saw, Inspector. I didn't prompt it other than telling it to enhance the photo and colorize it. The issue is that it is a statistical pattern matching of all the photos it was trained on and it will completely invent details that aren't really there sometimes. In this case, that actually does look like a door. Was it invented by the AI? We all have to judge for ourselves.
The risk of invention is shown by something that halfway looks like a kid in the yard behind the fence, but it also looks like a line of sight mixture of items that is just the kind of thing that can confuse an AI at this stage of its publicly released capabilities.
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Lorcan
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Re: Investigative Improv
AI does particularly bad with text within images. It currently uses a technology called diffusion which is entirely different than real text in a large language model. It is not natively seeing letters with diffusion, just shapes. It will get better in newer versions, but it is not ready yet. Here's an example of an image where AI will invent way too much. This is an original photo with no AI.
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Inspector
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Re: Investigative Improv
Thanks Lorcan! That’s interesting, I never noticed what looks like a child behind the fence. The original is actually more revealing in that regard.
I wish the door in the fence showed hinges, but they could be in the opposite side.
I wish the door in the fence showed hinges, but they could be in the opposite side.