Abby’s Instructions to Bridget About Washing Windows

[camgarsky4]

This seems like one of those, we'll agree to disagree.

On to the next topic!!

[camgarsky4]

Changed my mind....for the sake of folks who might read this thread sometime down the road.

Logic for doubting Bridget's sense of time:
*Morse and Bridget contradict each other as to when Abby gave window washing instructions.
*Bridget was feeling so poorly that morning, that just before 9am, she went outside and vomited for up to 10-15 minutes.
*Bridget's recollection of washing the breakfast dishes indicate that she spent up to 1 1/2 hours doing that task.

Logic for believing Abby told Bridget about needing to get pillow shams:
*On August 4, Officer Hyde took a written report of Bridget's comments to him stating Abby had come back down to fetch shams.
*There is no record of shams mentioned again by anyone involved in the case until Lizzie's inquest testimony the following Tuesday.
*For Bridget to have overheard Lizzie mention shams it would have happened between 11:15 - 11:50. Despite every second of Lizzie's time being dissected by police and Knowlton, no witness mentions Lizzie mentioning shams.

[Inspector]

Lizzie could possibly have mentioned the shams when she (Lizzie) sat down to have her coffee and cookies.
This could theoretically help suppress any suspicion that might occur later on concerning Abby’s whereabouts, regardless of how many trips Abby took to the guest room.

[camgarsky4]

I believe I earlier posted that the first Lizzie tells us of Abby mentioning the shams was at her inquest testimony. That was incorrect.
Multiple papers report that Saturday evening, August 6, Mayor Coughlin asked Lizzie when she last saw Abby. As part of her response, Lizzie mentions that Abby was heading back up to put on the pillow shams. Below is the article.

This doesn't change the fact that (to our knowledge) Lizzie didn't mention this fact on the day of the murders.

Channeling my 'inner Inspector', the only reason Lizzie might have made up this insight is if Abby was already dead when Lizzie came downstairs and Lizzie wanted to establish that that wasn't the case. The twist to that view is that Bridget testified that she heard Abby and Lizzie speaking. Of course, if we think its possible that Bridget's sense of time and event sequence might be off, could that negate her statement saying she overheard them? I don't think she made stuff up, so that would mean she had to have overheard them another time, and can't imagine when that would have been.

click on image to enlarge

Screenshot 2026-08-24 093357.png

[Lorcan]

I agree that Bridget's sense of time could be off. John and Bridget contradicting each other as to who came down first, Abby or Andrew is also a bit odd.

I wonder if the ambient sound was so different back then and the doors being shut really throw me off. I specifically made a point of listening to the activity from Lizzie's bedroom and I had no trouble whatsoever hearing the ghost tour guide setting up in the kitchen walking around in modern sneakers and the two women on the 3rd floor walking around.

To think Bridget could have been loading wood and coal into the stove in the kitchen, swapping out the ice, and other kitchen duties and John being unaware of everything in the sitting room makes me question the routine perception (like living near an airport or train and unconsciously blocking out that noise). I wonder if the domestic servants were really more invisible to Victorians than they would be to us.

What I mean is John should have been able to tell from footfalls and other noise who was doing what and where unless either the ambient noise was a lot greater back then or if he blocked out routine activity. I don't think anyone other than that one witness had any notable hearing issues.

[camgarsky4]

Bridget thinks she got about around 6:15am. I'm sure she was under instructions to avoid waking the elders up since they were sleeping directly above the kitchen. So her activities would have been performed slowly and quietly, until she knew they were up and awake. It is an exercise I am forced to do every morning in my house, with my wife and son both wanting to sleep in.

[Lorcan]

Camgarsky - good catch - that is exactly what I am aiming for in my mental model reconstructions, embodied analysis, thinking though what it would have been like in 1892 to do those specific chores with that specific equipment (such as making a bed, ironing, doing laundry, etc. - that were significantly different back then) seeing and hearing and smelling with 1892 senses and trying to figure out what they all would have likely experienced and been aware of at the time.

[Inspector]

Cam, I like your scenario possibilities, even if you are just channeling…lol
If Abby was killed while Bridget was sick, that only leaves the time when Lizzie first came down for her coffee when Bridget overheard Lizzie and Abby.
One has to insert the pillow shams there, unless we look at Hyde’s statement as a conversation between only Abby and Bridget.

[Lorcan]

I think we have 3 main scenarios:

1. Camgarsky's theory that Abby was killed while Bridget was outside getting sick. That is extremely close to when Andrew left if we believe that Andrew paused at the east side of the screen door stairs (the backyard side) to make sure Bridget was ok and that's what Mrs. Churchill saw Andrew doing.

2. The standard movie view and default view that Lizzie confirmed Bridget would be outside doing windows while talking to her through the screen door before killing Abby.

3. The Lizzie is innocent theory - Lizzie is in the watercloset in the cellar when Abby is killed. Rich Little's add-on is that Bridget was seen by Lizzie running from the house to throw up because she just found out about Abby. That is very low probability because that puts Andrew in the house when Abby is killed, which is almost certainly not true.

I think 1 and 2 are both plausible. Do we have anything that would push things one way or the other?

[camgarsky4]

Maybe a question to work thru before answering your ponderment...

Do we agree that 1)Bridget went out to vomit at 9am and 2) Lizzie checked on Bridget at the screen door close to 9:30.

So these two scenarios are roughly 30 minutes apart?

[Lorcan]

I agree on the timing and the 30 minute difference.

I'm thinking the timing of Abby's murder might have been down to the convergence of these 4 circumstances, that rarely happened simultaneously.

1. Andrew is going out for business (common)
2. Bridget is busy outside the house for what will likely be a wide enough window for the murder (somewhat common)
3. Lizzie and Abby are the only ones in the house (rare)
4. Abby is alone in an area of the house Bridget does not go into without specific instructions (somewhat rare).

Lizzie could have been in the kitchen, nibbling cookies and sipping coffee waiting for Andrew to leave. She may have planned to lure Abby to the sewing room at some point, but with Andrew having left, Abby alone in the guest room, and Bridget potentially seen or heard through the kitchen window as being very sick, perhaps that confluence of collectively rare circumstances caused Lizzie to move forward with the plan.

[Inspector]

Ever get the feeling we repeat ourselves over and over and over ?
We always have to revert back to the basics, or what we think is fact.

Lorcan, don’t forget

5) the 60 seconds for pillow shams has to fit into the “coincidence.”
It’s one reason I have been so bothersome about the subject and time period. I won’t press it anymore.

Let me ask y’all’s opinion:

How did Bridget learn about the shams?

1) She spoke directly to Abby
2) She overheard Lizzie and Abby
3) She learned through observation
4) Lizzie told Bridget

[Lorcan]

Let's say the pillow shams is something made up by Lizzie and repeated by Bridget and Abby was killed during the much longer (at least 20 minutes) to fully make a Victorian bed. Knowing Abby's habits, she did a lot of other cleaning in the room in addition to the disassembly, airing, beating, and fluffing of the layered mattress.

1. Could Lizzie have killed her before coming downstairs initially or did Abby wait for Andrew to leave before going upstairs to make the guest room bed? I'd have to see if Lizzie is the source of Abby having already made the bed before Andrew left. Perhaps Bridget was just repeating that from Lizzie, too, if Bridget testified to that. But then we also have Uncle John seeing her presumably going upstairs at 8:45 and Andrew not leaving until 9. So, I am leaning toward my option 2 (40%) or 3 (60%).

The hard limit for me is Andrew has to have already left the house.

2. Could Lizzie have simply set her laundry on the table or chair after returning from the basement and nibbled on some cookies and sipped coffee to time it so Abby says goodbye to Andrew and goes upstairs. We would assume Bridget is already in the back yard being sick because that apparently happened just prior to Andrew walking out the door. Then Lizzie just follows upstairs with her pile of laundry, tells Abby a loop as come loose in the laundry and follows Abby into the sewing room to repair it.

For me, much more plausible. Abby would not be suspicious. The sewing machine (and likely sewing supplies) would put the killer in the perfect position for the attack.

3. Did Lizzie wait to be alone in the house with Abby and simply call her up to the guest room to see something ("Abby I think I broke the sewing machine can you look at it?" or "Abby come up here an look at what Uncle John did.")

That's all I can come up with for now. Inspector if you have a solid theory and aren't saving it for a book or something, just tell us what it is and we can try to help with the evidence.

All I think we really know if Abby was likely hit from the front on the initial strike. The second strike was likely a miss aiming for her head as she turned and fell. If a burglar had the blade to her throat keeping her quiet, they would have just silently used it. So, I am left with Abby was face to face with her killer in a bedroom and didn't scream nor have time to instinctively raise her arms to block the strike.

If I had to make one definitive call as to what I think is the scenario that most fits the evidence.

1. Andrew has already left.
2. Bridget is outside being sick, or this happened later and she was doing the windows.
3. Lizzie is in the guest room with Abby and had the hatchet hidden in the dress she is repairing the button loop on.
4. Abby sees a flash of silver and is hit before she is aware of what is happening.

[camgarsky4]

I agree that the sewing machine desk was the perfect 'perch' for a surprise assault based on its known location and the photos of Abby's dead body.
I agree that the murderer would wait until Morse and Andrew were out of the house. Based on Churchill's testimony, this would be around 9am. To kill before they left would leave the goal of avoiding detection at the total whim of fate.
I think the killing occurred when Bridget was out being sick around 9am, but we also know that 15-30 minutes later she was outside washing windows. So it could have happened then also.

Inspector -- you're correct, we are repeating ourselves, but I think part of it is we aren't sure what you are thinking happened?

Why would Lizzie invent the sham portion of her story on the day of the murder? Why did not a single witness or policeman mention Lizzie mentioning shams? Only Bridget heard Lizzie mention it, but doesn't bother adding that tidbit to her statement to Hyde?

[Lorcan]

Let's say I got lucky with guessing Lizzie called Abby up to the guest/sewing room.

Presumably Uncle John saw Abby go upstairs to make the bed at 8:45.

This fits Lizzie's slip of mentioning she saw Abby upstairs to Fleet.

So, if Lizzie knows or suspects other people knew Abby made the bed at 8:45, how does she explain Abby being up in the sewing guest room after Andrew leaves at 9?

She can't say I'll lured her up there with a tale of a broken sewing machine or some mess or broken knickknack left by Uncle John.

She can say that she went up to put pillow shams on the small pillows. That would be plausible since those particular pillowcases may not normally be part of a sheet set washed and folded together.

I'm traveling the next 10 days, so I'll be on and off the forum.

[Inspector]

I don’t really have a grand theory and perhaps since I’m zeroing in on small details during this critical time makes it seem like I do. However, I don’t accept it as fact that Abby went upstairs when John, saw her in the front hall nor do I accept it as fact that Abby took the pill shams up during that precise time right after John, and Andrew specifically Andrew left the house. Trying to figure out what time. Bridget and Lizzie are referring to when Abby went up with the pillow shams if she did go up with them at all.
So for me, the next question is, how did Bridget learn about the pillow shams? That’s why I asked the four different scenarios to see what opinion y’all have on the matter, and my thought is that if we can determine that answer, we may be able to get closer to the time when Abby went upstairs whether it was one trip or two trips and was subsequent killed. This also has to do with the door being open or shut, but I think you guys don’t believe that that has anything to do with it and I don’t see how it would really matter other than it may help us zero in on the time a little bit better if we consider Lizzie‘s observation of the door.

[camgarsky4]

I have no means to prove this, but my personal opinion is that Lizzie closed the door after killing Abby because that is what I think anyone would do naturally after performing such a heinous act. I think the door was reopened while Lizzie was revisiting the scene of the crime shortly before she was heard laughing (aka making a noise) by Bridget. Andrews arrival home captured Lizzie's attention and focus, causing her to leave the door open as she went downstairs to chat with Andrew about the mail and note.

As far as where Abby was headed when Morse saw her go into the front foyer around 8:30, I suppose she could have gone into the parlor or upstairs. I suppose that would make it 50/50 which room. You vote the parlor. I vote guest room because I think Abby would have used the door to the parlor that opened directly from the sitting room. Why would she go into the foyer to go into the parlor when there was a door in the sitting room?

Here is a snippet of Bridget's comment to Hyde as he recorded it.
"...and sometime after she came down for some pillow shams. And she said to me, "have you anything particular to do?"
This interaction occurred after Abby had already been upstairs.

The way that comment is worded, Abby asked her the question as she came down for some pillow shams. By extension, I would interpret that as when Bridget also learned about the shams.

Inspector, you have got me reconsidering my long held belief that Bridget was extremely time disoriented about when she was asked to do the windows and was only asked once immediately after breakfast. Studying Hyde's report has got me leaning towards an alternative viewpoint....that Bridget was told twice. It would not be a stretch to wonder if Abby, after working in the guest room for 20-30 minutes, had assumed Bridget would have already started on the windows, so her second mentioning to Bridget was to ensure compliance and/or understanding of the assignment.

Witness Statement
JOSEPH HYDE                                           
August 4, 1892.                                                   
In talking to Bridget Sullivan on the above date I asked her what time Mrs. Borden went upstairs.                
She said she thought it was a little before nine o’clock in the morning; and sometime after she came             
down for some pillow shams. And she said to me, “have you anything particular to do?” Bridget answered
“No mam.” Mrs. Borden said “I would like you to wash those windows.” I went out and washed the windows,
and never saw Mrs. Borden again alive.

[Inspector]

Cam- your alternative view is surely a possibility, and makes good sense. Bridget seemed to have testimony that was solid, and didn’t contradict itself much.
Does your alternative view stress test your view that Bridget was outside vomiting when Abby was killed?
Personally, I want to trust Bridget, and think your alternative view could also lend credence to the possibility that she did have a second conversation with Abby after she vomited.

Of course, if there was a second conversation “affirmation “ about window washing, it could’ve been at some point before Bridget got sick. Perhaps while Bridget was having her breakfast Abby popped into the dining room and briefly affirmed the ww instructions, or perhaps on one of Bridget’s other trips to the dining room to collect dishes.

Bridget assumed Abby was in the sitting room all the time after breakfast and leading up to this (last ww conversation) , but said she didn’t actually see her in the sitting room up to that point. I assume at any point until their final conversation.

So that makes it hard to place the ww affirmation anytime earlier than Bridget’s last conversation with Abby, especially considering Hyde’s comments.

It bothers me that Bridget in Hyde’s comments appears to be saying Abby had been downstairs for some time before going up with the shams, and then she got the ww instructions.
How would Bridget know Abby had been down for “some time “ before going back up with the shams, if she Bridget said she hadn’t actually seen Abby after breakfast, until her last conversation with Abby?

It stands out to me that your alternative view also gives the possibility that both John and Bridget are telling the truth.

[camgarsky4]

It bothers me that Bridget in Hyde’s comments appears to be saying Abby had been downstairs for some time before going up with the shams, and then she got the ww instructions.
How would Bridget know Abby had been down for “some time “ before going back up with the shams, if she Bridget said she hadn’t actually seen Abby after breakfast, until her last conversation with Abby?

Inspector, interesting how you and I read Bridget's comment to Hyde so differently. The sentence in question I've put in red below.
I'll rewrite that sentence in blue with how I interpret it.

Hyde asked Bridget what time Abby went upstairs. Bridget thought it was before 9am. Sometime after Abby had gone upstairs, she came back downstairs to get pillow shams. At that time, Abby said to Bridget, what chores are you doing today.

Witness Statement
JOSEPH HYDE                                           
August 4, 1892. In talking to Bridget Sullivan on the above date I asked her what time Mrs. Borden went upstairs.   She said she thought it was a little before nine o’clock in the morning; and sometime after she came             
down for some pillow shams. And she said to me, “have you anything particular to do?” Bridget answered
“No mam.” Mrs. Borden said “I would like you to wash those windows.” I went out and washed the windows,
and never saw Mrs. Borden again alive.[/i]

[Inspector]

Thanks for clarifying your interpretation.
I was thinking this morning how much Hyde’s notes could actually be trying to tell us. There could be a hidden gem in there.
I had a little fun with both of our previous posts—I put both in AI just to see what it said.
It gave you better odds than you gave yourself on the probability that Abby went upstairs after Morse saw her in the front hall,
It also talked about the various ways Hyde’s statements could be interpreted.

I don’t really trust AI, because it’s wrong as much as correct, continually apologies for itself when corrected, and does a lot of double talk.

Sometimes it has a little nugget of something new.

[Inspector]

Cam— looking at just your interpretation of Hyde’s comments, this would be the only time that Bridget saw Abby before Abby was killed and that conversation would have to be concerning the window washing instructions and before she went outside to get sick. So when do you think this conversation happened because Bridget was in the kitchen with Lizzie before she went out to get sick, but according to Bridget, this whole conversation happened after she came in from being sick outside.

Also Bridget’s testified she never saw Abby in the interim after breakfast until her final conversation with Abby.

My thought is that Bridget possibly overheard Abby and Lizzie talking right after Lizzie came down for breakfast. (Specifically the shams.)

[Inspector]

Sorry about so much rambling.
Here is a possible scenario.
Lizzie comes down for breakfast, speaks to Abby who is in the sitting room, and is overheard by Bridget who is in the dining room grabbing some dishes. This is when Bridget learns of the pillow shams.

Lizzie then comes into the kitchen where Bridget is washing dishes.

Now we have to decide where to put the last, visual conversation between Abby and Bridget, which is about wasting windows.

[camgarsky4]

If I'm tracking, under that scenario, it is irrelevant if Bridget heard about the shams directly from Abby or overheard Abby & Lizzie discussing them. Either way it was Abby informing Bridget directly or indirectly about the shams.

[Inspector]

In that scenario yes. It makes it irrelevant to see if we can pinpoint Bridget’s last observance/discussion with Abby.

[Inspector]

This also separates learning about the shams from the last time Bridget speaks to Abby personally. Of coarse I just separated it to try and clarify whether Bridget’s recollection is correct.
Was it before she got sick or after?

[Inspector]

Bridget also stated that she did not know where Lizzie was at during this last conversation with Abby right before she was killed, so that seems to point to the conversation as happening after Bridget got sick like she testified.