We can have some 'fun' dissecting Hiram's interview with the police and newspapers. All the articles and witness statements seem to say the same thing, but most of the newspapers (and police) word their intros as if they had a private sitting with Hiram. My guess is that he gave a large group interview outside the Borden home and just said this statement once.
High level opinions:
*Hiram had to know the possible consequences of forcefully 'throwing Lizzie under the bus' in the context of the double murder. He concedes having issues with Andrew, but when describing the financial 'gifts' to the sisters from Andrew, Hiram's wording doesn't suggest Andrew is being cheap, it more reads as him thinking Lizzie wasn't sufficiently satisfied. This tells me he experienced more personal satisfaction w/ Lizzie being in a tight spot than taking jabs at Andrew.
*This is the first time we hear that Lizzie went to the barn to find lead for her fishing trip (that I can find). For me, that gives Hiram a lot of credibility that he did talk to Lizzie. Numerous posters on this forum over the years have shared the opinion that Hiram made up his story.
*Hiram gives himself a bad look (to me anyway) by making a point about Andrew asking Lurana to reimburse him for the water tax (usage bill) for 12 Ferry. Immediately after selling her inherited share of 12 Ferry to Andrew, she and Hiram, then move into Ferry St, presumably as tenants. It seems more than logical that Andrew didn't want to pay their utility bills since they were living there.
Source: Fall River Daily Herald, Aug. 6, 1892
Start of article.
CLOSE IN MONEY MATTERS
Hiram Harrington, 40 Fourth Street, is married to Laurana, Mr. Borden's only sister. A reporter who interviewed him gathered the following story: ‘My wife, being an only sister, was very fond of Mr. Borden and always subservient to his will, and by her intimacy with his affairs I have become acquainted with a good deal of the family history during years past. Mr. Borden was an exceedingly hard man concerning money matters, determined and stubborn, and when once he got an idea, nothing could change him. He was too hard for me.
'When his father died some years ago, he offered my wife the old homestead on Ferry Street for a certain sum of money. My wife preferred to take the money, and after the agreements were all signed, to show how close he was, he wanted my wife to pay an additional $3 for water tax upon the homestead.'
"What do you think was the motive for the crime?" asked the reporter.
'Money, unquestionably money,’ replied Mr. Harrington. 'If Mr. Borden died, he would have left something over $500,000, and all I will say is that, in my opinion, that furnishes the only motive, and a sufficient one, for the double murder. I have heard so much now that I would not be surprised at the arrest any time of the person to whom in my opinion suspicion strongly points, although right down in my heart I could not say I believed the party guilty.
'Last evening I had a long interview with Lizzie Borden, who refused to see anyone else. I questioned her very carefully as to her story of the crime. She was very composed, showed no signs of any emotion nor were there any traces of grief upon her countenance. That did not surprise me, as she is not naturally emotional. I asked her what she knew of her father's death, and, after telling of the unimportant events of the early morning, she said her father came home about 10:30. She was in the kitchen at the time, she said, but went into the sitting room when her father arrived. She was very solicitous concerning him and assisted him to remove his coat and put on his dressing-gown; asked concernedly how he felt, as he had been weak from a cholera morbus attack the day before. She told me she helped him to get a comfortable reclining position on the lounge and asked him if he did not wish the blinds closed to keep out the sun, so he could have a nice nap. She pressed him to allow her to place an Afghan over him, but he said he did not need it. Then she asked him tenderly several times if he was perfectly comfortable, if there was anything she could do for him, and upon receiving assurance to the negative she withdrew. All these things showed a solicitude and a thoughtfulness that I never had heard was a part of her nature or custom before. She described these little acts of courtesy minutely.
'I then questioned her very carefully as to the time she left the house, and she told me positively that it was about 10:45. She said she saw her father in the lounge as she passed out. On leaving the house she says she went directly to the barn to obtain some lead. She informed me that it was her intention to go to Marion on a vacation, and she wanted the lead in the barn loft to make some sinkers. She was a very enthusiastic angler. I went over the ground several times, and she repeated the same story. She told me it was hard to place the exact time she was in the barn, as she was cutting the lead into sizeable sinkers, but thought she was absent some 20 minutes. Then she thought again and said it might have been 30 minutes. Then she entered the house and went to the sitting room, as she says, she was anxious concerning her father's health. "I discovered him dead," she said, "and cried for Bridget, who was upstairs in her room."
'Did you go and look for your stepmother?' I asked. 'Who found her?' But she did not reply. I pressed her for some idea of the motive and the author of the act, and after she had thought a moment, she said, calmly: “A year ago last spring our house was broken into while father and mother were at Swansey, and a large amount of money stolen, together with diamonds. You never heard of it because father did not want it mentioned, so as to give the detectives a chance to recover the property. That may have some connection with the murder. Then I have seen strange men around the house. A few months ago, I was coming through the back yard, and, as I approached the side door, I saw a man there examining the door and premises. I did not mention it to anyone. The other day I saw the same man hanging about the house, evidently watching us. I became frightened and told my parents about it. I also wrote to my sister at Fairhaven about it." Miss Borden then gave it as her opinion that the strange man had a direct connection with the murder, but she could not see why the house was not robbed and did not know of anyone who would desire revenge upon her father.'
Mr. Harrington was asked if he knew whether there were dissentions in the Borden family. 'Yes, there were, although it has been always kept very quiet. For nearly ten years there have been constant disputes between the daughters and their father and stepmother. Mr. Borden gave her some bank stock, and the girls thought they ought to be treated as evenly as the mother. I guess Mr. Borden did try to do it, for he deeded to the daughters, Emma L. and Lizzie A., the homestead on Ferry Street, an estate of 120 rods of land with a house and barn, all valued at $3000. This was in 1887.
'The trouble about money matters did not diminish, nor did the acerbity of the family ruptures lesson, and Mr. Borden gave each girl ten shares in the Crystal Spring Bleachery company, which he paid $100 a share for. They sold them soon after for less than $40 per share. He also gave them some bank stock at various times, allowing them, of course, the entire income from them. In addition to this he gave them a weekly stipend, amounting to $200 a year.
'Despite all this, the dispute about their not being allowed enough went on with equal bitterness. Lizzie did most of the demonstrative contention, as Emma is very quiet and unassuming, and would feel very deeply any disparaging or angry word from her father. Lizzie, on the contrary, was haughty and domineering with the stubborn will of her father and bound to contest her rights. There were many animated interviews between father and daughter on this point. Lizzie is of a repellant disposition, and after an unsuccessful passage with her father would become sulky and refuse to speak to him for days at a time. She moved in the best society in Fall River, was a member of the Congregational church, and is a brilliant conversationalist. She thought she ought to entertain as others did and felt that with her father's wealth, she was expected to hold her end up with others of her set. Her father's constant refusal to allow her to entertain lavishly angered her. I have heard many bitter things she has said of her father and know she was deeply resentful of her father’s-maintained stand in this matter.
'This house on Ferry Street was an old one and was in constant need of repairs. There were two tenants paying $16.50 and $14 a month, but with taxes and repairs there was very little income from the property. It was a great deal of trouble for the girls to keep the house in repair, and a month or two ago they got disgusted and deeded the house back to their father.' " End of article.
Hiram's statement to police & newspapers
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camgarsky4
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Lorcan
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Re: Hiram's statement to police & newspapers
I'll number my quotes so my comments can be referenced (and refuted, if needed). Be direct and don't hold back because I may be basing my opinions on incomplete information and I'd rather get that missing information than not.
1. I have heard so much now that I would not be surprised at the arrest any time of the person to whom in my opinion suspicion strongly points, although right down in my heart I could not say I believed the party guilty.
Even though what he says Lizzie said, if true, looks very incriminating, he still can't emotionally believe she would do that to Andrew and Abby.
2. She was very composed, showed no signs of any emotion nor were there any traces of grief upon her countenance. That did not surprise me, as she is not naturally emotional.
I wonder if Lizzie had a very powerful emotional compartmentalization capacity, not necessarily a sociopath, but the ability to disassociate or wall off emotions.
3. she said her father came home about 10:30.
This potentially conflicts with Lizzie's testimony that he didn't leave the house until almost 10.
4. She told me she helped him to get a comfortable reclining position on the lounge and asked him if he did not wish the blinds closed to keep out the sun, so he could have a nice nap. She pressed him to allow her to place an Afghan over him
This is extremely chilling if we think she was positioning her father for the kill.
5. All these things showed a solicitude and a thoughtfulness that I never had heard was a part of her nature or custom before. She described these little acts of courtesy minutely.
This is normally what liars do - make up details to make it sound more believable. However, not enough to go by. She may have done it as she says. However, if it was not in her nature to do this type of thing for her father, it's interesting in context with the other evidence.
6. and she told me positively that it was about 10:45
If Lizzie left the house at 10:45, the the 30 minutes in number 8 is impossible.
7. On leaving the house she says she went directly to the barn to obtain some lead
This directly conflicts with her story of picking up pears and spending time looking up at the old pigeon coop.
8. as she was cutting the lead into sizeable sinkers, but thought she was absent some 20 minutes. Then she thought again and said it might have been 30 minutes.
This, if true, means Lizzie is almost certainly guilty. There is no evidence whatsoever she cut lead into sinker-sized chunks. She testified she brought no lead back from the barn.
9. Then she entered the house and went to the sitting room, as she says, she was anxious concerning her father's health
This is in conflict with her more detailed testimony of checking the fire, putting her hat away, etc. and if she was anxious about her father's health, why go to the barn? Why not wait with him until Bridget or Abby would be home to keep an eye on him in case he needed anything (if he got nauseous or fell down, etc.)
10. 'Did you go and look for your stepmother?' I asked. 'Who found her?' But she did not reply.
Hmm, Hiram pressed her to answer for other questions, but not this one?
11. A year ago last spring our house was broken into while father and mother were at Swansey, and a large amount of money stolen, together with diamonds.
Diamonds - really? No mention of that anywhere else and what would Andrew want with diamonds in Fall River? He wasn't fleeing the country and needed a compact way to transfer physical wealth. He wasn't interested in jewelry. This along with the nail as a lock pick makes me think Lizzie read and enjoyed some mystery books (or magazine stories).
12. Lizzie, on the contrary, was haughty and domineering with the stubborn will of her father and bound to contest her rights. There were many animated interviews between father and daughter on this point. Lizzie is of a repellant disposition, and after an unsuccessful passage with her father would become sulky and refuse to speak to him for days at a time.
This seems like she was actually angry at Andrew as well as Abby. My theory (fear of the loss of influence and her special bond with Andrew) differs from Hiram's (money). I think Lizzie killed them because she feared that Andrew and Abby would continue to keep financial matters secret, as they did with Fourth Street and she could see that she was no longer "daddy's special girl" and her growing resentment of Abby's influence and fear of what that might mean for her future kept building to a breaking point.
13. She thought she ought to entertain as others did and felt that with her father's wealth, she was expected to hold her end up with others of her set. Her father's constant refusal to allow her to entertain lavishly angered her. I have heard many bitter things she has said of her father and know she was deeply resentful of her father’s-maintained stand in this matter.
From a child's perspective, it is easy to see that they might think they were owed the perceived societal position. As Lizzie's cousins and even her wealthier friends from church threw parties, she was never allowed to be the hostess. I can empathize with her anger, but I can also see things from Andrew's perspective as those ostentatious displays being against his moral and religious principles.
14. 'This house on Ferry Street was an old one and was in constant need of repairs. There were two tenants paying $16.50 and $14 a month, but with taxes and repairs there was very little income from the property. It was a great deal of trouble for the girls to keep the house in repair, and a month or two ago they got disgusted and deeded the house back to their father.'
I think others disagree with me, since this was likely the easiest property to deed to them and it had a family connection, but I wonder if there was at least a little bit of Andrew wanting to show his daughters that what he built was not easy and he had to work hard to get where he was financially.
1. I have heard so much now that I would not be surprised at the arrest any time of the person to whom in my opinion suspicion strongly points, although right down in my heart I could not say I believed the party guilty.
Even though what he says Lizzie said, if true, looks very incriminating, he still can't emotionally believe she would do that to Andrew and Abby.
2. She was very composed, showed no signs of any emotion nor were there any traces of grief upon her countenance. That did not surprise me, as she is not naturally emotional.
I wonder if Lizzie had a very powerful emotional compartmentalization capacity, not necessarily a sociopath, but the ability to disassociate or wall off emotions.
3. she said her father came home about 10:30.
This potentially conflicts with Lizzie's testimony that he didn't leave the house until almost 10.
4. She told me she helped him to get a comfortable reclining position on the lounge and asked him if he did not wish the blinds closed to keep out the sun, so he could have a nice nap. She pressed him to allow her to place an Afghan over him
This is extremely chilling if we think she was positioning her father for the kill.
5. All these things showed a solicitude and a thoughtfulness that I never had heard was a part of her nature or custom before. She described these little acts of courtesy minutely.
This is normally what liars do - make up details to make it sound more believable. However, not enough to go by. She may have done it as she says. However, if it was not in her nature to do this type of thing for her father, it's interesting in context with the other evidence.
6. and she told me positively that it was about 10:45
If Lizzie left the house at 10:45, the the 30 minutes in number 8 is impossible.
7. On leaving the house she says she went directly to the barn to obtain some lead
This directly conflicts with her story of picking up pears and spending time looking up at the old pigeon coop.
8. as she was cutting the lead into sizeable sinkers, but thought she was absent some 20 minutes. Then she thought again and said it might have been 30 minutes.
This, if true, means Lizzie is almost certainly guilty. There is no evidence whatsoever she cut lead into sinker-sized chunks. She testified she brought no lead back from the barn.
9. Then she entered the house and went to the sitting room, as she says, she was anxious concerning her father's health
This is in conflict with her more detailed testimony of checking the fire, putting her hat away, etc. and if she was anxious about her father's health, why go to the barn? Why not wait with him until Bridget or Abby would be home to keep an eye on him in case he needed anything (if he got nauseous or fell down, etc.)
10. 'Did you go and look for your stepmother?' I asked. 'Who found her?' But she did not reply.
Hmm, Hiram pressed her to answer for other questions, but not this one?
11. A year ago last spring our house was broken into while father and mother were at Swansey, and a large amount of money stolen, together with diamonds.
Diamonds - really? No mention of that anywhere else and what would Andrew want with diamonds in Fall River? He wasn't fleeing the country and needed a compact way to transfer physical wealth. He wasn't interested in jewelry. This along with the nail as a lock pick makes me think Lizzie read and enjoyed some mystery books (or magazine stories).
12. Lizzie, on the contrary, was haughty and domineering with the stubborn will of her father and bound to contest her rights. There were many animated interviews between father and daughter on this point. Lizzie is of a repellant disposition, and after an unsuccessful passage with her father would become sulky and refuse to speak to him for days at a time.
This seems like she was actually angry at Andrew as well as Abby. My theory (fear of the loss of influence and her special bond with Andrew) differs from Hiram's (money). I think Lizzie killed them because she feared that Andrew and Abby would continue to keep financial matters secret, as they did with Fourth Street and she could see that she was no longer "daddy's special girl" and her growing resentment of Abby's influence and fear of what that might mean for her future kept building to a breaking point.
13. She thought she ought to entertain as others did and felt that with her father's wealth, she was expected to hold her end up with others of her set. Her father's constant refusal to allow her to entertain lavishly angered her. I have heard many bitter things she has said of her father and know she was deeply resentful of her father’s-maintained stand in this matter.
From a child's perspective, it is easy to see that they might think they were owed the perceived societal position. As Lizzie's cousins and even her wealthier friends from church threw parties, she was never allowed to be the hostess. I can empathize with her anger, but I can also see things from Andrew's perspective as those ostentatious displays being against his moral and religious principles.
14. 'This house on Ferry Street was an old one and was in constant need of repairs. There were two tenants paying $16.50 and $14 a month, but with taxes and repairs there was very little income from the property. It was a great deal of trouble for the girls to keep the house in repair, and a month or two ago they got disgusted and deeded the house back to their father.'
I think others disagree with me, since this was likely the easiest property to deed to them and it had a family connection, but I wonder if there was at least a little bit of Andrew wanting to show his daughters that what he built was not easy and he had to work hard to get where he was financially.
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Lorcan
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Re: Hiram's statement to police & newspapers
Too late for me to edit the existing post:
3. she said her father came home about 10:30.
This potentially conflicts with Lizzie's testimony that he didn't leave the house until almost 10.
Lizzie is obviously wrong about when Andrew left and it is another potential indicator that Lizzie is lying. Lizzie went downstairs at the earliest 8:45 and Andrew left at about 9:00. I don't find it reasonable for Lizzie to confuse less than 15 minutes with an hour and 15 minutes.
3. she said her father came home about 10:30.
This potentially conflicts with Lizzie's testimony that he didn't leave the house until almost 10.
Lizzie is obviously wrong about when Andrew left and it is another potential indicator that Lizzie is lying. Lizzie went downstairs at the earliest 8:45 and Andrew left at about 9:00. I don't find it reasonable for Lizzie to confuse less than 15 minutes with an hour and 15 minutes.
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camgarsky4
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Re: Hiram's statement to police & newspapers
With what we know from other witnesses, including Emma and Lizzie themselves, I think we can accept Hiram's comments about the family chemistry as legitimate.
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Lorcan
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Re: Hiram's statement to police & newspapers
What really gets to me is the "cutting the lead into sizeable sinkers."
Lizzie hadn't been in the barn for 3 months and hadn't used her lines at the Swansea farm for 3 years - according to her own testimony. What are the odds Hiram would make up this:
"cutting the lead into sizeable sinkers"
I'd say very close to zero. Lead doesn't just disappear.
How did the prosecution not look for those freshly cut chunks of lead?
Was Hiram alone talking to Lizzie or did anyone overhear to confirm or deny his story?
If he lied, or the newspaper lied, why didn't Lizzie's legal team force the retraction and apology like they did with other stories (Trickey & the story about the planned wedding to school teacher in Swansea)?
Lizzie also said she was looking for lead already with a hole in it? Why? Lead is so soft the hole can be easily punched through.
Besides all of that nonsense, an entire box if perfectly weighted and shaped sinkers could be had for pennies.
I think she just blurted that out to Hiram and then was stuck with that story.
Let's see if we can get the timeline:
All stories are tin or iron to fix a screen prior to Hiram's interview (Bridget, Alice, Adelaide, Dr. Bowen, Mrs. Holmes)
Then in the afternoon she tells Hiram about the lead for sinkers.
Lizzie then never denies lead for sinkers and testifies to it - basically having 2 purposes from then on, the screen fix and the sinkers.
Lizzie hadn't been in the barn for 3 months and hadn't used her lines at the Swansea farm for 3 years - according to her own testimony. What are the odds Hiram would make up this:
"cutting the lead into sizeable sinkers"
I'd say very close to zero. Lead doesn't just disappear.
How did the prosecution not look for those freshly cut chunks of lead?
Was Hiram alone talking to Lizzie or did anyone overhear to confirm or deny his story?
If he lied, or the newspaper lied, why didn't Lizzie's legal team force the retraction and apology like they did with other stories (Trickey & the story about the planned wedding to school teacher in Swansea)?
Lizzie also said she was looking for lead already with a hole in it? Why? Lead is so soft the hole can be easily punched through.
Besides all of that nonsense, an entire box if perfectly weighted and shaped sinkers could be had for pennies.
I think she just blurted that out to Hiram and then was stuck with that story.
Let's see if we can get the timeline:
All stories are tin or iron to fix a screen prior to Hiram's interview (Bridget, Alice, Adelaide, Dr. Bowen, Mrs. Holmes)
Then in the afternoon she tells Hiram about the lead for sinkers.
Lizzie then never denies lead for sinkers and testifies to it - basically having 2 purposes from then on, the screen fix and the sinkers.
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Inspector
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Re: Hiram's statement to police & newspapers
That’s a good find Cam, that Hiram was first to mention the lead for fishing.
I too agree that Hiram had good insights as to the Borden house personalities,
and his story has always rang true to me, for one, because I can’t imagine being as bold about Lizzie if he was speaking off the cuff.
His comments that the motive was absolutely money, there’s a person whom suspicion strongly points, and in his heart he can’t believe them guilty, sound like someone who is just being honest.
I too agree that Hiram had good insights as to the Borden house personalities,
and his story has always rang true to me, for one, because I can’t imagine being as bold about Lizzie if he was speaking off the cuff.
His comments that the motive was absolutely money, there’s a person whom suspicion strongly points, and in his heart he can’t believe them guilty, sound like someone who is just being honest.
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camgarsky4
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Re: Hiram's statement to police & newspapers
It is startling that he so enthusiastically put his niece in the spotlight for two murders. No wonder Lizzie gave him quid pro quo at the inquest, saying that he was the only person she knew that Andrew didn't like. There seems to be something extra going on.\
Lorcan - Harrington gave the interview to the police in the witness statements also, wasn't just newspapers.
Lorcan - Harrington gave the interview to the police in the witness statements also, wasn't just newspapers.
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Lorcan
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Re: Hiram's statement to police & newspapers
I've been thinking about whether there was anything in the case that could, in real life, be decisive enough for me to condemn Lizzie to the gallows, both in 1892 and today. Today, if the blood droplet on the outside surface of her underskirt came back as Abby's, given the totality of other evidence I think that would do it. Short of that, I think it would have to be Lizzie's own words.
I thought that something as checkable and as blatant a lie as "cutting lead into sizable sinkers" would be the tipping point, and Lizzie and her defense team, as far as I can tell, never denied she said that to Hiram. I'm leaning toward Hiram talking to Lizzie in a room where other people in the house could hear the conversation as being the main reason for the lack of denial, but I cannot think of a reason why the prosecution didn't force the production of those freshly cut pieces of lead or force Lizzie to admit she lied.
I thought that catching Lizzie in a blatant lie would be enough to convict, but then I thought about all her contradictory stories and how she could claim, yes, I lied, but I only lied because I was afraid I would be blamed for a crime I didn't commit and I kept digging myself a deeper hole.
Anyone go down this rabbit hole before?
I thought that something as checkable and as blatant a lie as "cutting lead into sizable sinkers" would be the tipping point, and Lizzie and her defense team, as far as I can tell, never denied she said that to Hiram. I'm leaning toward Hiram talking to Lizzie in a room where other people in the house could hear the conversation as being the main reason for the lack of denial, but I cannot think of a reason why the prosecution didn't force the production of those freshly cut pieces of lead or force Lizzie to admit she lied.
I thought that catching Lizzie in a blatant lie would be enough to convict, but then I thought about all her contradictory stories and how she could claim, yes, I lied, but I only lied because I was afraid I would be blamed for a crime I didn't commit and I kept digging myself a deeper hole.
Anyone go down this rabbit hole before?
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camgarsky4
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Re: Hiram's statement to police & newspapers
I agree that 135 years after the crime, the most plausible way to determine Lizzie's guilt is to catch her in a definitive lie.
Using Hiram's interview to catch Lizzie in a fib would require being able to compare the two comments with both parties under oath. However, Lizzie's inquest testimony was barred as testimony and, for reasons that I don't know, Knowlton didn't ask Hiram a single thing about Lizzie's alibi when he testified at the inquest. If both had testified, all Lizzie would have to had said was that Hiram must have misunderstood her. So, it seems that line of thought is destined for a dead end.
The issues I think can be shown, beyond a reasonable doubt, that she lied are the note and the attempt to procure prussic acid. But, as we know, at this point in time, reasonable doubt is in the eyes of the beholder.
IF no evidence had been excluded and the death penalty was off the table, I believe Lizzie would have been found guilty in 1893.
The prosecution would have needed a neutral jury, because just one 'apologist' would hang the jury. You see that with the forum...vast majority suspect she was guilty of active involvement. But occasionally there are forum posters who are adamant of Lizzie's complete and total innocence, in spite of being aware of the evidence that the judges excluded. The prosecution would have needed to avoid any like jurors to have gotten the guilty verdict.
Of course, this is all pure speculation and opinion on my part.
Using Hiram's interview to catch Lizzie in a fib would require being able to compare the two comments with both parties under oath. However, Lizzie's inquest testimony was barred as testimony and, for reasons that I don't know, Knowlton didn't ask Hiram a single thing about Lizzie's alibi when he testified at the inquest. If both had testified, all Lizzie would have to had said was that Hiram must have misunderstood her. So, it seems that line of thought is destined for a dead end.
The issues I think can be shown, beyond a reasonable doubt, that she lied are the note and the attempt to procure prussic acid. But, as we know, at this point in time, reasonable doubt is in the eyes of the beholder.
IF no evidence had been excluded and the death penalty was off the table, I believe Lizzie would have been found guilty in 1893.
The prosecution would have needed a neutral jury, because just one 'apologist' would hang the jury. You see that with the forum...vast majority suspect she was guilty of active involvement. But occasionally there are forum posters who are adamant of Lizzie's complete and total innocence, in spite of being aware of the evidence that the judges excluded. The prosecution would have needed to avoid any like jurors to have gotten the guilty verdict.
Of course, this is all pure speculation and opinion on my part.
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Lorcan
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Re: Hiram's statement to police & newspapers
If Teena comes back or we get another poster who believes Lizzie is innocent, I'm going to ask them if they think all Lizzie's apparent lies (prussic acid, the note, hearing Abby come back, mutually exclusive versions of coming back into the house, New Bedford dress material, the out of town store guy, not being upstairs, what time she thought Andrew left that morning, the convoluted sequence of reading material, seeing Abby upstairs before going downstairs for the first time, eating 4 pears in 30 minutes, whose idea it was to burn the dress, cutting lead into sizable chunks but bringing none back into the house, fixing a screen with tin or iron, spending 10 to 15 minutes looking at a box of junk for lead that was the size of a kitchen drawer).
I'm wondering if the Lizzie apologists are only thinking emotionally, or if they would think Lizzie did actually lie about most or all of the topics I raised and she did it because she was scared and just kept digging herself a bigger hole.
I'm sure some would disagree on one or more of my suspected Lizzie lies, but I genuinely believe she lied about every single one of those topics. I wonder how someone could reconcile that many lies with complete innocence. Teena, if you see this, please let me know what you think.
I'm wondering if the Lizzie apologists are only thinking emotionally, or if they would think Lizzie did actually lie about most or all of the topics I raised and she did it because she was scared and just kept digging herself a bigger hole.
I'm sure some would disagree on one or more of my suspected Lizzie lies, but I genuinely believe she lied about every single one of those topics. I wonder how someone could reconcile that many lies with complete innocence. Teena, if you see this, please let me know what you think.
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camgarsky4
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Re: Hiram's statement to police & newspapers
In my opinion....For the legitimate 'lizzie is innocent' crowd (ex. Teenabee), they truly think she is innocent, but at some level, I think this is emotion driven, they want to believe she is innocent. I respect these folks, but as I've suggested to Teenabee, to change the minds of the majority, a plausible alternative needs to be proposed. So far, I've never read one.
Then there are the contrarians and trolls...we get one on this forum about once a year. They are just argumentative but literally don't offer up a single scintilla of an alternative solution. We experienced one just a couple weeks ago.
Then there are the contrarians and trolls...we get one on this forum about once a year. They are just argumentative but literally don't offer up a single scintilla of an alternative solution. We experienced one just a couple weeks ago.
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Inspector
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Re: Hiram's statement to police & newspapers
I wonder what percentage y'all would give, that Lizzie had an accomplice.
It appears to be a much tougher line to prove than Lizzie acted alone, (unless Bridget was involved.)
I have no evidence she was, except her proximity, and trusting John was innocent. Bridget was the only one on the premises besides Lizzie, and also within feet of both murders when they occurred.
I won’t point out anyone, but what are the main reasons we use to validate a possible accomplice, and are they strong enough to continue accepting any possibility?
It appears to be a much tougher line to prove than Lizzie acted alone, (unless Bridget was involved.)
I have no evidence she was, except her proximity, and trusting John was innocent. Bridget was the only one on the premises besides Lizzie, and also within feet of both murders when they occurred.
I won’t point out anyone, but what are the main reasons we use to validate a possible accomplice, and are they strong enough to continue accepting any possibility?
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Lorcan
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Re: Hiram's statement to police & newspapers
Arguing against Bridget being an accomplice is:
1. Bridget testifying about Lizzie being upstairs laughing.
2. Bridget not backing Lizzie up about Abby getting a note.
So, whatever accomplice Lizzie may have had has to avoid Bridget and every other witness outside the house. That is very difficult.
If Lizzie had an accomplice, then it was planned, or at the very least there were two heads that could have made up a far more plausible story than the contradictory, implausible mess Lizzie told.
Plus, it appears the plan was poison up until hours before the murders. So, I'd say odds are overwhelmingly in favor of no accomplice.
1. Bridget testifying about Lizzie being upstairs laughing.
2. Bridget not backing Lizzie up about Abby getting a note.
So, whatever accomplice Lizzie may have had has to avoid Bridget and every other witness outside the house. That is very difficult.
If Lizzie had an accomplice, then it was planned, or at the very least there were two heads that could have made up a far more plausible story than the contradictory, implausible mess Lizzie told.
Plus, it appears the plan was poison up until hours before the murders. So, I'd say odds are overwhelmingly in favor of no accomplice.
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Inspector
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Re: Hiram's statement to police & newspapers
I would have to agree, the odds are against an accomplice.
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camgarsky4
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Re: Hiram's statement to police & newspapers
As far as Lizzie's "contradictory, implausible mess Lizzie told", perhaps there is a very plausible explanation.
We've discussed this before, but let's 'pretend' that Lizzie (presuming her participation) learned from Andrew (at 10:45ish) that John Morse would be coming to the house for the noon meal and possibly an extended chat w/ Andrew afterwards. If she intended to deal with Andrew after the noon meal and after Bridget had left for her Thursday afternoon outing (assuming she had that time off), her Plan was essentially blown up. There was no retreating because Abby was lying dead upstairs.
In this scenario, Lizzie had to act boldly and 'wing it' as far as explaining what the heck happened.
We've discussed this before, but let's 'pretend' that Lizzie (presuming her participation) learned from Andrew (at 10:45ish) that John Morse would be coming to the house for the noon meal and possibly an extended chat w/ Andrew afterwards. If she intended to deal with Andrew after the noon meal and after Bridget had left for her Thursday afternoon outing (assuming she had that time off), her Plan was essentially blown up. There was no retreating because Abby was lying dead upstairs.
In this scenario, Lizzie had to act boldly and 'wing it' as far as explaining what the heck happened.
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Inspector
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Re: Hiram's statement to police & newspapers
I think what you’re saying Cam, is that John would end up finding Abby while Andrew is still living.
Otherwise, if Andrew was dead before John returned, it would be easier to use the barn alibi.
Otherwise, if Andrew was dead before John returned, it would be easier to use the barn alibi.
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camgarsky4
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Re: Hiram's statement to police & newspapers
'Scenario' Assumptions:
*Lizzie is guilty. Bridget is not guilty.
*Around 10:30 Lizzie is expecting Andrew to arrive back home before the noon meal and for Bridget to leave for the afternoon after the noon meal.
*Lizzie plans to deter Andrew from looking for Abby with the note story. If he got impatient, she could have offered to go 'fetch' Abby to stall for time to allow Bridget to leave the house voluntarily.
*Once Bridget leaves the house, Lizzie plans for Andrew to join Abby in the afterlife.
*Lizzie plans to leave the house to 'go shopping'.
*Andrew arrives home likely early due to feeling under the weather. Catches Lizzie off guard, causing her to make some strange noise.
*Lizzie talks to Andrew and immediately tells him the Abby note story. Andrew is startled, asking why Abby would leave the house knowing Morse was coming to lunch. Its Lizzie's turn to be caught off guard and she ends the conversation.
*Lizzie attempts to accelerate Bridget's departure but fails.
*Lizzie realizes that once Morse arrives, she will not be able to fend off Andrew's inquiries into Abby's whereabouts after lunch. Morse is unlikely to leave until the mystery of the missing Abby is solved.
*Lizzie has no choice but to act immediately, before Morse arrives.
An accessory could be easily inserted into this flow of events and make the original Plan even more effective from an alibi setting perspective.
*Lizzie is guilty. Bridget is not guilty.
*Around 10:30 Lizzie is expecting Andrew to arrive back home before the noon meal and for Bridget to leave for the afternoon after the noon meal.
*Lizzie plans to deter Andrew from looking for Abby with the note story. If he got impatient, she could have offered to go 'fetch' Abby to stall for time to allow Bridget to leave the house voluntarily.
*Once Bridget leaves the house, Lizzie plans for Andrew to join Abby in the afterlife.
*Lizzie plans to leave the house to 'go shopping'.
*Andrew arrives home likely early due to feeling under the weather. Catches Lizzie off guard, causing her to make some strange noise.
*Lizzie talks to Andrew and immediately tells him the Abby note story. Andrew is startled, asking why Abby would leave the house knowing Morse was coming to lunch. Its Lizzie's turn to be caught off guard and she ends the conversation.
*Lizzie attempts to accelerate Bridget's departure but fails.
*Lizzie realizes that once Morse arrives, she will not be able to fend off Andrew's inquiries into Abby's whereabouts after lunch. Morse is unlikely to leave until the mystery of the missing Abby is solved.
*Lizzie has no choice but to act immediately, before Morse arrives.
An accessory could be easily inserted into this flow of events and make the original Plan even more effective from an alibi setting perspective.
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Lorcan
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Re: Hiram's statement to police & newspapers
Camgarsky, you lost me a bit. Wasn't Lizzie sitting in the kitchen when Andrew told John to come back for the noon meal? In that case, there is no dependable window of time until after John also leaves where Lizzie could plan on being alone with Andrew if Andrew and John were both expected back just before noon. I don't think Lizzie could have known that Andrew would arrive before John.
I think you're correct about the noise - might have been an involuntary nervous laugh rather laughing at Bridget swearing. If either Andrew or John is at the door, she's in a very precarious position at that point. Imagine if John came back first and wanted to go back up to the guest room to lie down before lunch or to retrieve something he left behind.
I also think Lizzie's elaboration of the discussion with Abby might be telling - was Bridget supposed to be within earshot of that conversation? If so, that would have been a great opportunity to see if Lizzie was lying about that conversation (asking about which meat to buy, etc.). I think Bridget may have been out in the back yard during the window Lizzie says that conversation took place, so maybe that why the prosecution didn't ask Bridget about it - or would that have been objected to as hearsay?
I think you're correct about the noise - might have been an involuntary nervous laugh rather laughing at Bridget swearing. If either Andrew or John is at the door, she's in a very precarious position at that point. Imagine if John came back first and wanted to go back up to the guest room to lie down before lunch or to retrieve something he left behind.
I also think Lizzie's elaboration of the discussion with Abby might be telling - was Bridget supposed to be within earshot of that conversation? If so, that would have been a great opportunity to see if Lizzie was lying about that conversation (asking about which meat to buy, etc.). I think Bridget may have been out in the back yard during the window Lizzie says that conversation took place, so maybe that why the prosecution didn't ask Bridget about it - or would that have been objected to as hearsay?
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camgarsky4
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Re: Hiram's statement to police & newspapers
Lizzie did not come downstairs until after Morse left. You might be confusing Bridget and Lizzie.
Bridget did not hear anything Andrew said when he and Lizzie were talking in the dining room.
Bridget was in the kitchen when Lizzie and Abby talked in the dining room.
Bridget did not hear anything Andrew said when he and Lizzie were talking in the dining room.
Bridget was in the kitchen when Lizzie and Abby talked in the dining room.
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Lorcan
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Re: Hiram's statement to police & newspapers
Thanks, I forgot Lizzie missed him by a few minutes. Perhaps she was waiting for him to leave to come downstairs.
This is the most important part, I think:
*Lizzie talks to Andrew and immediately tells him the Abby note story. Andrew is startled, asking why Abby would leave the house knowing Morse was coming to lunch. Its Lizzie's turn to be caught off guard and she ends the conversation.
If I were Lizzie I would be extremely scared of Uncle John going back up to the guest room. Maybe that's why the timeline is so compressed. If Bridget comes downstairs or if Uncle John shows up at the door Lizzie could have been caught literally red handed.
This is the most important part, I think:
*Lizzie talks to Andrew and immediately tells him the Abby note story. Andrew is startled, asking why Abby would leave the house knowing Morse was coming to lunch. Its Lizzie's turn to be caught off guard and she ends the conversation.
If I were Lizzie I would be extremely scared of Uncle John going back up to the guest room. Maybe that's why the timeline is so compressed. If Bridget comes downstairs or if Uncle John shows up at the door Lizzie could have been caught literally red handed.
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Inspector
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Re: Hiram's statement to police & newspapers
Right on, I was tracking correctly and threw in the barn alibi, except you are theorizing that finding out about John’s return from Andrew’s mouth caused the rush, not in anyway for reasons of protecting Bridget from being accused, or to use a pre planned alibi (such as the barn story.)
1) Do you think Lizzie was possibly getting ready to leave, but got spotted by Mrs Churchill and this stopped her?
If not, Lizzie was still free to leave, and of course Bridget would be under more suspicion, yet there’d be no reason to worry about the crime scene or bloody rags in the cellar.
2) if your theory is correct, who did Lizzie intend to find the victims?
1) Do you think Lizzie was possibly getting ready to leave, but got spotted by Mrs Churchill and this stopped her?
If not, Lizzie was still free to leave, and of course Bridget would be under more suspicion, yet there’d be no reason to worry about the crime scene or bloody rags in the cellar.
2) if your theory is correct, who did Lizzie intend to find the victims?
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camgarsky4
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Re: Hiram's statement to police & newspapers
Lizzie had already interacted with Bridget before Churchill came over, so don't think she was going anywhere after she called down Bridget.
Lizzie could discover them or Bridget or whomever. At that point, she has created enough reasonable doubt that she would probably be safe from anything more than initial suspicion.
Lizzie could discover them or Bridget or whomever. At that point, she has created enough reasonable doubt that she would probably be safe from anything more than initial suspicion.
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Inspector
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Re: Hiram's statement to police & newspapers
But, what about in the time right after Andrew’s death, and before she called Bridget down?
Providing Lizzie had herself cleaned up, this would be a
perfect window to escape possibly.
Why not just leave before Mrs Churchill saw her, and while Bridget was upstairs?
Not trying to grill you, but this is part of why I think Lizzie had some form of sympathy for Bridget, and didn’t want her to take the fall.
Providing Lizzie had herself cleaned up, this would be a
perfect window to escape possibly.
Why not just leave before Mrs Churchill saw her, and while Bridget was upstairs?
Not trying to grill you, but this is part of why I think Lizzie had some form of sympathy for Bridget, and didn’t want her to take the fall.
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Lorcan
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Re: Hiram's statement to police & newspapers
I finished my testimony database and when trying to decide if Lizzie protected Bridget knowing she would very possibly hang if Lizzie walked out, it struck me that people who knew and most likely liked Bridget, still referred to her as servant. I think there was a strict social class situation going on where even people who liked Bridget still kept to the norms. On the side of Lizzie protecting Bridget is that Lizzie neither said nor did anything to push suspicion Bridget's way, even after she knew she was suspected. Here's a sample of what I mean:
Lizzie Borden · Inquest · row 1607
#804
Q. Hosea Knowlton: Nobody there but your parents and yourself and the servant?
A. Lizzie Borden: Why, Mr. Morse came sometime in the afternoon, or at noon time, I suppose, I did not see him.
John Morse · Inquest · row 1903
#952
Q. Hosea Knowlton: And the servant girl?
A. John Morse: Yes, I saw her first.
John Morse · Inquest · row 1929
#965
Q. Hosea Knowlton: When you got there, who did you find at home then?
A. John Morse: I think the girl was there, the servant, and Mr. and Mrs. Borden.
John Morse · Inquest · row 1951
#976
Q. Hosea Knowlton: Was the servant up?
A. John Morse: I think not, she was not down stairs.
John Morse · Inquest · row 1955
#978
Q. Hosea Knowlton: He got up before the servant girl?
A. John Morse: I saw him first.
John Morse · Inquest · row 2025
#1013
Q. Hosea Knowlton: Did you take notice what the servant girl was doing when you went out?
A. John Morse: I dont know. I heard Mrs. Borden tell her at breakfast time, if it was so she could, she would like for her to wash the windows.
John Morse · Inquest · row 2047
#1024
Q. Hosea Knowlton: How came Mrs. Borden to speak to the servant girl at the breakfast table?
A. John Morse: I dont know, I suppose it came into her mind.
John Morse · Inquest · row 2049
#1025
Q. Hosea Knowlton: The servant girl did not eat with you?
A. John Morse: No, sir.
John Morse · Inquest · row 2095
#1048
Q. Hosea Knowlton: When was the first you heard that Mr. Borden was killed?
A. John Morse: When I went into the door. I went around, before I went into the house, to a pear tree to get a couple of pears. When I came back, the servant girl met me at the door, and asked if I had heard the news. I said no. She said Mr. and Mrs. Borden were both murdered. A man named Sawyer stood there at the time.
John Morse · Inquest · row 2129
#1065
Q. Hosea Knowlton: Tell me please, as near as you can, who you saw there that you can name, when you got into the house?
A. John Morse: Why, the first two that were right together, were a man named Sawyer, and this servant girl, Bridget something.
Adelaide Churchill · Inquest · row 2835
#1419
Q. Hosea Knowlton: While you were gone down to Bowles', there was nobody there, so far as you know, but Lizzie and the servant?
A. Adelaide Churchill: I left her alone when I went, the servant had not got back from the other errand.
Alice Russell · Inquest · row 3389
#1696
Q. Hosea Knowlton: At any time did you have any talk with the servant girl, that you recollect?
A. Alice Russell: I dont remember of ever saying a word to her.
John Morse · Preliminary Hearing · row 9045
#4522
Q. Hosea Knowlton: Did you see the servant?
A. John Morse: Not until about breakfast time.
John Morse · Preliminary Hearing · row 9075
#4537
Q. Hosea Knowlton: Did you see the servant then when you were eating breakfast?
A. John Morse: Yes, sir.
John Morse · Preliminary Hearing · row 9119
#4559
Q. Hosea Knowlton: Did you see the servant then, Bridget?
A. John Morse: I saw her when I went out; she was in the kitchen.
John Morse · Preliminary Hearing · row 9135
#4567
Q. Hosea Knowlton: When you came the day before, how did you get in at the back door at noon?
A. John Morse: The girl let me in, the servant girl.
John Morse · Preliminary Hearing · row 9227
#4613
Q. Hosea Knowlton: Who told you?
A. John Morse: I think the servant girl.
Lizzie Borden · Inquest · row 1607
#804
Q. Hosea Knowlton: Nobody there but your parents and yourself and the servant?
A. Lizzie Borden: Why, Mr. Morse came sometime in the afternoon, or at noon time, I suppose, I did not see him.
John Morse · Inquest · row 1903
#952
Q. Hosea Knowlton: And the servant girl?
A. John Morse: Yes, I saw her first.
John Morse · Inquest · row 1929
#965
Q. Hosea Knowlton: When you got there, who did you find at home then?
A. John Morse: I think the girl was there, the servant, and Mr. and Mrs. Borden.
John Morse · Inquest · row 1951
#976
Q. Hosea Knowlton: Was the servant up?
A. John Morse: I think not, she was not down stairs.
John Morse · Inquest · row 1955
#978
Q. Hosea Knowlton: He got up before the servant girl?
A. John Morse: I saw him first.
John Morse · Inquest · row 2025
#1013
Q. Hosea Knowlton: Did you take notice what the servant girl was doing when you went out?
A. John Morse: I dont know. I heard Mrs. Borden tell her at breakfast time, if it was so she could, she would like for her to wash the windows.
John Morse · Inquest · row 2047
#1024
Q. Hosea Knowlton: How came Mrs. Borden to speak to the servant girl at the breakfast table?
A. John Morse: I dont know, I suppose it came into her mind.
John Morse · Inquest · row 2049
#1025
Q. Hosea Knowlton: The servant girl did not eat with you?
A. John Morse: No, sir.
John Morse · Inquest · row 2095
#1048
Q. Hosea Knowlton: When was the first you heard that Mr. Borden was killed?
A. John Morse: When I went into the door. I went around, before I went into the house, to a pear tree to get a couple of pears. When I came back, the servant girl met me at the door, and asked if I had heard the news. I said no. She said Mr. and Mrs. Borden were both murdered. A man named Sawyer stood there at the time.
John Morse · Inquest · row 2129
#1065
Q. Hosea Knowlton: Tell me please, as near as you can, who you saw there that you can name, when you got into the house?
A. John Morse: Why, the first two that were right together, were a man named Sawyer, and this servant girl, Bridget something.
Adelaide Churchill · Inquest · row 2835
#1419
Q. Hosea Knowlton: While you were gone down to Bowles', there was nobody there, so far as you know, but Lizzie and the servant?
A. Adelaide Churchill: I left her alone when I went, the servant had not got back from the other errand.
Alice Russell · Inquest · row 3389
#1696
Q. Hosea Knowlton: At any time did you have any talk with the servant girl, that you recollect?
A. Alice Russell: I dont remember of ever saying a word to her.
John Morse · Preliminary Hearing · row 9045
#4522
Q. Hosea Knowlton: Did you see the servant?
A. John Morse: Not until about breakfast time.
John Morse · Preliminary Hearing · row 9075
#4537
Q. Hosea Knowlton: Did you see the servant then when you were eating breakfast?
A. John Morse: Yes, sir.
John Morse · Preliminary Hearing · row 9119
#4559
Q. Hosea Knowlton: Did you see the servant then, Bridget?
A. John Morse: I saw her when I went out; she was in the kitchen.
John Morse · Preliminary Hearing · row 9135
#4567
Q. Hosea Knowlton: When you came the day before, how did you get in at the back door at noon?
A. John Morse: The girl let me in, the servant girl.
John Morse · Preliminary Hearing · row 9227
#4613
Q. Hosea Knowlton: Who told you?
A. John Morse: I think the servant girl.
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camgarsky4
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Re: Hiram's statement to police & newspapers
That will be a fun tool for you to do research with.... great job on the development!
I don't have a clue to Lizzie's motives for not pointing anyone out as a suspect to the police, with the mentioning of Hiram Harrington being a possible exception.
When we poke on how Lizzie (if she did it) carried out this crime, it is a bit ironic. She was acquitted and inherited $millions. I presume you guys watch forensic files and 48 hours. Every crime they show (which are hundreds) the criminal makes several mistakes that were stupider than anything we think Lizzie did. And these folks are aware of police capabilities, and they still leave something here or there or say the wrong thing, etc. etc.
I don't have a clue to Lizzie's motives for not pointing anyone out as a suspect to the police, with the mentioning of Hiram Harrington being a possible exception.
When we poke on how Lizzie (if she did it) carried out this crime, it is a bit ironic. She was acquitted and inherited $millions. I presume you guys watch forensic files and 48 hours. Every crime they show (which are hundreds) the criminal makes several mistakes that were stupider than anything we think Lizzie did. And these folks are aware of police capabilities, and they still leave something here or there or say the wrong thing, etc. etc.
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Inspector
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Re: Hiram's statement to police & newspapers
Nice work Lorcan, setting the social status aside, I still sense a bit of protection for Bridget. even from Morse, through your posted testimony.
So….
But, what about in the time right after Andrew’s death, and before she called Bridget down?
Providing Lizzie had herself cleaned up, this would be a
perfect window to escape possibly.
Why not just leave before Mrs Churchill saw her, and while Bridget was upstairs?
Not trying to grill you, but this is part of why I think Lizzie had some form of sympathy for Bridget, and didn’t want her to take the fall
So….
But, what about in the time right after Andrew’s death, and before she called Bridget down?
Providing Lizzie had herself cleaned up, this would be a
perfect window to escape possibly.
Why not just leave before Mrs Churchill saw her, and while Bridget was upstairs?
Not trying to grill you, but this is part of why I think Lizzie had some form of sympathy for Bridget, and didn’t want her to take the fall
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camgarsky4
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Re: Hiram's statement to police & newspapers
Maybe in the immediate aftermath of slaughtering her father (directly or indirectly), which immediately followed frantically adjusting to the realization that her uncle might show up at any second, she did take the time to consider Bridget's possible fate and put it over her own.
I don't think so, but who knows.
I don't think so, but who knows.
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Lorcan
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Re: Hiram's statement to police & newspapers
Do you think it was the instinct to stage direct rather than actual protection of Bridget?
For the desk break in, Lizzie walked the police around and pointed out the nail in the lock. She decided when the search for Abby would begin, she wanted to immediately give testimony when the policeman offered to hold off on questions until the next day. Maybe it was the need to feel in control, rather than sympathy for Bridget?
We also have to think about how immune from suspicion she thought she was as long as there was no blood found on her. Remember how she told the police they didn't need to look in her room because she always kept it locked? More stage direction?
For the desk break in, Lizzie walked the police around and pointed out the nail in the lock. She decided when the search for Abby would begin, she wanted to immediately give testimony when the policeman offered to hold off on questions until the next day. Maybe it was the need to feel in control, rather than sympathy for Bridget?
We also have to think about how immune from suspicion she thought she was as long as there was no blood found on her. Remember how she told the police they didn't need to look in her room because she always kept it locked? More stage direction?
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Inspector
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Re: Hiram's statement to police & newspapers
I appreciate the response. If she really didn’t care for Bridget being blamed, and Mrs Churchill hadn’t spotted Lizzie yet, the only thing besides her wanting to control the situation and being fearful of losing control of the environment by leaving, the only thing keeping her on premises, would possibly be her not having herself cleaned or maybe uncertainty.
Just Speculation.
Just Speculation.
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camgarsky4
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Re: Hiram's statement to police & newspapers
Do we think Lizzie running out of the house after killing Andrew would have reduced the level of suspicion placed upon her? Bridget would still testify the same as she did. The time of the killing would still be established as between 10:50ish to 11:20 (when Morse returned or Bridget came down to heat up lunch) and Lizzie would have to prove she was out of the house prior to 10:50 and, of course, she wouldn't be able to. Worse still, what if she was seen scurrying out of the driveway (very likely), that might make her look more guilty than claiming she was in the barn the whole time.
Another idea twist... she was likely wearing the painted Bedford cord dress. She normally wouldn't go out socially in that outfit and deeply ingrained social etiquette influences everyone's actions and decisions. Just spit balling.
I don't think she considered running off because of the situation as she evaluated it or due to her emotional condition, but if she did it might have led to a different and less optimal outcome for lizzie. I am on the band wagon espousing that Lizzie's personality preferred to control the narrative.
Sincere question, wondering to help know how to provide thoughts, are you looking to have a 'digestible' answer for every nuanced movement or do you view answering this question key to resolving the crime?
Some things just happen and no sane or non-present person can explain it. If you asked me how Lizzie (or anyone) could stand over another person and obliterate their skulls, I can't legitimately explain it because I don't have the same brain activity, life experiences, social context or 'moment in time' sensations as the person who did the act. The entire thing doesn't resonate for me, but we know it happened.
Another idea twist... she was likely wearing the painted Bedford cord dress. She normally wouldn't go out socially in that outfit and deeply ingrained social etiquette influences everyone's actions and decisions. Just spit balling.
I don't think she considered running off because of the situation as she evaluated it or due to her emotional condition, but if she did it might have led to a different and less optimal outcome for lizzie. I am on the band wagon espousing that Lizzie's personality preferred to control the narrative.
Sincere question, wondering to help know how to provide thoughts, are you looking to have a 'digestible' answer for every nuanced movement or do you view answering this question key to resolving the crime?
Some things just happen and no sane or non-present person can explain it. If you asked me how Lizzie (or anyone) could stand over another person and obliterate their skulls, I can't legitimately explain it because I don't have the same brain activity, life experiences, social context or 'moment in time' sensations as the person who did the act. The entire thing doesn't resonate for me, but we know it happened.
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Inspector
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Re: Hiram's statement to police & newspapers
Not looking for answers for every movement, but in the theory you provided, it touched on something that has always seemed possibly important to whether Bridget was involved, or Lizzie had compassion for Bridget.
I personally think Lizzie knew John was coming back for lunch, but it’s just speculation.
Either way, whether she learned about John’s return before he left, or from Andrew, something kept Bridget and Lizzie together, and it’s hard for me to understand not fleeing that house.
I personally think Lizzie knew John was coming back for lunch, but it’s just speculation.
Either way, whether she learned about John’s return before he left, or from Andrew, something kept Bridget and Lizzie together, and it’s hard for me to understand not fleeing that house.
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Lorcan
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Re: Hiram's statement to police & newspapers
I think Camgarsky might have hit upon it - Lizzie wouldn't go outside the house in public in the blue bedford cord or that style of dress. So, by the time she has cleaned up (11:05?) she would have the possibility of:
1. Bridget coming back downstairs.
2. Uncle John arriving.
3. Anyone at all showing up at the house and drawing Bridget to answer the door.
So, although the two-piece bedford cord dress (in modern terms, skirt and matching blouse) takes less than 3 minutes to put on or take off, the dress she would have to have to put on to go into the shopping district would have taken longer to get into, perhaps 10+ minutes for the complete outfit. That is super risky with Bridget upstairs. Had Bridget gone shopping, I think Lizzie would have also left the house after staging a break-in, and Uncle John would have been intended to discover the crime scene.
1. Bridget coming back downstairs.
2. Uncle John arriving.
3. Anyone at all showing up at the house and drawing Bridget to answer the door.
So, although the two-piece bedford cord dress (in modern terms, skirt and matching blouse) takes less than 3 minutes to put on or take off, the dress she would have to have to put on to go into the shopping district would have taken longer to get into, perhaps 10+ minutes for the complete outfit. That is super risky with Bridget upstairs. Had Bridget gone shopping, I think Lizzie would have also left the house after staging a break-in, and Uncle John would have been intended to discover the crime scene.
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camgarsky4
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Re: Hiram's statement to police & newspapers
Question for all - What would Lizzie have accomplished by darting out of the house after killing Andrew that she didn't accomplish by claiming to have been in the barn?
Inspector, I presume you theorize that Lizzie eavesdropped and heard Andrew invite Morse back for lunch.
I originally thought along those same lines, but since my visit to Fall River, I've reset my view on that issue. Andrew's invite occurred at the back entry, Andrew inside and Morse outside. Bridget, who was in the kitchen with the side door open, didn't hear Morses' response, which was probably something like "sounds good, see you then."
For Lizzie to learn that Morse was coming back for lunch would require her hearing what Andrew said, not Morse. Andrew was inside the side door entry, and Lizzie was possibly standing inside of Emma's window, the second window from the front on the pic below. Morse was standing on the steps. Andrew was inside the doorway, presumably speaking in a normal tone and volume. I don't think Lizzie would have been able to make out what Andrew would have said. Nothing in the testimony suggests that Andrew hollered out at John, sounds like it was an exchange at the door.
Bridget couldn't hear what Morse said, and she was closer than Lizzie, with no walls or windows to obstruct the sound.
Bridget Preliminary Hearing
Q. Did Mr. Borden go out when Mr. Morse did?
A. No, Sir.
Q. He went to the door?
A. Yes Sir, with him.
Q. Did you hear him say anything to Mr. Morse?
A. I heard him ask him to come to dinner.
Q. What did Mr. Morse say?
A. I do not know.
Q. That is when they were at the door?
A. Yes, Sir.
john Morse Preliminary Hearing
Q. (when did you last see) Mr. Borden?
A. When I came in, Mr. Borden came out through the kitchen into the back hall, and unhooked the door, and he hooked it, and the last words I heard him say was “John, come back to dinner with us.”
Inspector, I presume you theorize that Lizzie eavesdropped and heard Andrew invite Morse back for lunch.
I originally thought along those same lines, but since my visit to Fall River, I've reset my view on that issue. Andrew's invite occurred at the back entry, Andrew inside and Morse outside. Bridget, who was in the kitchen with the side door open, didn't hear Morses' response, which was probably something like "sounds good, see you then."
For Lizzie to learn that Morse was coming back for lunch would require her hearing what Andrew said, not Morse. Andrew was inside the side door entry, and Lizzie was possibly standing inside of Emma's window, the second window from the front on the pic below. Morse was standing on the steps. Andrew was inside the doorway, presumably speaking in a normal tone and volume. I don't think Lizzie would have been able to make out what Andrew would have said. Nothing in the testimony suggests that Andrew hollered out at John, sounds like it was an exchange at the door.
Bridget couldn't hear what Morse said, and she was closer than Lizzie, with no walls or windows to obstruct the sound.
Bridget Preliminary Hearing
Q. Did Mr. Borden go out when Mr. Morse did?
A. No, Sir.
Q. He went to the door?
A. Yes Sir, with him.
Q. Did you hear him say anything to Mr. Morse?
A. I heard him ask him to come to dinner.
Q. What did Mr. Morse say?
A. I do not know.
Q. That is when they were at the door?
A. Yes, Sir.
john Morse Preliminary Hearing
Q. (when did you last see) Mr. Borden?
A. When I came in, Mr. Borden came out through the kitchen into the back hall, and unhooked the door, and he hooked it, and the last words I heard him say was “John, come back to dinner with us.”
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Last edited by camgarsky4 on Fri Oct 30, 2026 3:45 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Inspector
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Re: Hiram's statement to police & newspapers
Well… the fact that she’d have to compete head to head with Bridget for one.
Bridget would explain their last discussion, but Lizzie could say all that happened earlier, and that she ( Lizzie) left before Andrew got home.
I think Lizzie didn’t want this scenario.
Bridget would explain their last discussion, but Lizzie could say all that happened earlier, and that she ( Lizzie) left before Andrew got home.
I think Lizzie didn’t want this scenario.
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camgarsky4
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Inspector
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Re: Hiram's statement to police & newspapers
One thing I’ve learned from this thread and discussion is that regardless of whether Lizzie stayed for :
1) She wanted situational control/manipulation of the crime scene area, or:
2) She didn’t want the blame laid upon, and confrontation/fight with Bridget for reasons of compassion or fear of the outcome,
this shows a bit more clearly (for me) that Bridget wasn’t involved.
Actually I’m prepared to disregard any accomplice theory altogether, for lack of any evidence whatsoever.
1) She wanted situational control/manipulation of the crime scene area, or:
2) She didn’t want the blame laid upon, and confrontation/fight with Bridget for reasons of compassion or fear of the outcome,
this shows a bit more clearly (for me) that Bridget wasn’t involved.
Actually I’m prepared to disregard any accomplice theory altogether, for lack of any evidence whatsoever.
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Inspector
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Re: Hiram's statement to police & newspapers
Todd Lunday’s analogy can be applied to the accomplice theory as well.
Just as he shows the murders couldn’t have happened unless it was Lizzie, and since Lizzie didn’t commit them, the murders never happened.
Similarly, since Bridget is the only possible accomplice, and since she wasn’t one, there was no accomplice.
Just as he shows the murders couldn’t have happened unless it was Lizzie, and since Lizzie didn’t commit them, the murders never happened.
Similarly, since Bridget is the only possible accomplice, and since she wasn’t one, there was no accomplice.
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Lorcan
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Re: Hiram's statement to police & newspapers
If Bridget was an accomplice I think she would have backed up Lizzie's story about the note and she wouldn't have reported hearing Lizzie laughing upstairs.
I don't think Lizzie would have expected to be able to lie about what time she left the property to head for, presumably, Main Street for a plausible I was out shopping alibi. There would have been dozens of witnesses that would have seen her walking between her gate and Main Street no matter which route she took to the shopping district.
I don't think Bridget suspected Lizzie until the moment Bridget suggested looking at Mrs. Whitehead's house and Lizzie asked people to search upstairs. Since Bridget had already been up the back stairs for the sheet, Lizzie meant the front stairs and Bridget knew it.
I think from the moment she saw Abby, there would have been a whirlwind of conflicting thoughts and fears swirling around Bridget's mind. I imagine she would have thought back to being outside washing the windows and how likely it was an intruder entered the house without her seeing them. Then there is the fear she could be suspected or blamed. What did she say about Abby to Dr. Kelly's maid? Did she complain about being asked to wash the windows after being sick in the back yard? Did she complain about the food? Two Irish maids talking could have gotten a bit blunt and direct, with a bit of bardic embellishment thrown in.
I think we all landed on Lizzie was neither trying to protect Bridget nor get her hanged. Lizzie did what she did for her own reasons and Bridget was almost certainly unaware of the murders until the bodies were discovered.
I don't think Lizzie would have expected to be able to lie about what time she left the property to head for, presumably, Main Street for a plausible I was out shopping alibi. There would have been dozens of witnesses that would have seen her walking between her gate and Main Street no matter which route she took to the shopping district.
I don't think Bridget suspected Lizzie until the moment Bridget suggested looking at Mrs. Whitehead's house and Lizzie asked people to search upstairs. Since Bridget had already been up the back stairs for the sheet, Lizzie meant the front stairs and Bridget knew it.
I think from the moment she saw Abby, there would have been a whirlwind of conflicting thoughts and fears swirling around Bridget's mind. I imagine she would have thought back to being outside washing the windows and how likely it was an intruder entered the house without her seeing them. Then there is the fear she could be suspected or blamed. What did she say about Abby to Dr. Kelly's maid? Did she complain about being asked to wash the windows after being sick in the back yard? Did she complain about the food? Two Irish maids talking could have gotten a bit blunt and direct, with a bit of bardic embellishment thrown in.
I think we all landed on Lizzie was neither trying to protect Bridget nor get her hanged. Lizzie did what she did for her own reasons and Bridget was almost certainly unaware of the murders until the bodies were discovered.
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Inspector
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Re: Hiram's statement to police & newspapers
Those are valid points and observations put together neatly.
Of course the ladies knew Lizzie was directing them to the front stairs, no question. Bridget not being allowed to go to Mrs Whiteheads, I believe was the telling moment for Bridget .
Something you may want to consider.
Just when exactly did Lizzie want Bridget to go to Sargents?
I think it was asap, Lizzie brought up the Sargents sale after Andrew returned, so Lizzie didn’t want to go with Bridget, she wanted time alone with Andrew.
Both Lizzie and Bridget would have to walk the same streets, and be seen by the same public witnesses if either of them went to Sargents, so the shopping trip helps neither of them in my opinion.
What it does show, is that the thought occurred to Lizzie that going to Sargents was a good idea.
Therefore, since Bridget didn’t go, either alone or with Lizzie—-Bridget was no accomplice.
Of course the ladies knew Lizzie was directing them to the front stairs, no question. Bridget not being allowed to go to Mrs Whiteheads, I believe was the telling moment for Bridget .
Something you may want to consider.
Just when exactly did Lizzie want Bridget to go to Sargents?
I think it was asap, Lizzie brought up the Sargents sale after Andrew returned, so Lizzie didn’t want to go with Bridget, she wanted time alone with Andrew.
Both Lizzie and Bridget would have to walk the same streets, and be seen by the same public witnesses if either of them went to Sargents, so the shopping trip helps neither of them in my opinion.
What it does show, is that the thought occurred to Lizzie that going to Sargents was a good idea.
Therefore, since Bridget didn’t go, either alone or with Lizzie—-Bridget was no accomplice.