after the murder how close was emma and lizzie

snokkums · Post by **snokkums** » Sun Mar 20, 2005 10:18 pm

Did lizzie emma and bridget stay close after the murder? I do know that emma did move to another city, but did they stay in contact with each other?

Lazy · Post by **Lazy** » Thu Mar 31, 2005 4:11 am

I've read that they had a fight and then didnt have anything to do with each other, but I dont know what over... can anyone confirm?

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Thu Mar 31, 2005 5:28 am

Actually nobody really knows what the falling out between Lizzie and Emma had to do with, it's up for speculation, much like the rest of the case.

It happened around 1905 and it's said that Emma and Lizzie never spoke again after Emma moved away.

snokkums · Post by **snokkums** » Thu Mar 31, 2005 7:37 am

I had heard that it was something to do with the fact that lizzie liked the stage actors kind of people and she was always having them over. Back in the victorian era, actors were in the same category as prostitues and the like, and emma wasnt to thrilled to see them over at the house. Plus, I think, Emma was a lot quiter than Lizzie and she wanted to live a quite live.

theebmonique · Post by **theebmonique** » Thu Mar 31, 2005 7:51 am

It is rumored that it was Lizzie's rumored lesbian relationship with Nance O'Neil which in part caused Emma's decision to leave. But, to the best of my knowledge, and as others have stated, there is no PROOF...yet anyway. Yes, Emma does seem to be a lot 'quieter' than Lizzie. SOMETHING had to make Emma want to leave her sister for more 'quiet' surroundings.

Tracy..

snokkums · Post by **snokkums** » Thu Mar 31, 2005 7:55 am

I guess the lesibain angle is always going to come up. But she was relatively close to Nance O'Neil, and Emma wasn't to thrilled to have all these actor type people coming and going. I think she might have looked at it as improper to have actors and such over at the house if you were a proper young women, or a woman of any age, she might have felt it wasn't dignified.

Pippi · Post by **Pippi** » Thu Mar 31, 2005 9:28 am

Even without a lesbian relationship just having all those stage people around all the time could have been too much for Emma and her good sense. Actors were held a bit higher than prostitutes Snokkums but not much, correct.

ah, we cross in post :)

The girls never had much contact with Uncle John so that is no surprise.

Bob Gutowski · Post by **Bob Gutowski** » Thu Mar 31, 2005 10:20 am

Beyond that, even if Lizzie was really guiltless, Emma might have lived with her for years, wondering.

And if, as I believe, Lizzie was guilty or involved, and the family closed around her, with Emma possibly lying during the trial to make Lizzie's actions look less suspicious (I told her to burn that nasty, dirty, faded old dress - yes, the one that was freshly made just months ago!), what would it be like to live with someone you know is capable of such an act, family or not?

Nancie · Post by **Nancie** » Thu Mar 31, 2005 3:55 pm

The question of WHY did Lizzie and Emma split is
almost as compelling as Who Done IT?

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Thu Mar 31, 2005 4:27 pm

snokkums @ Thu Mar 31, 2005 7:37 am wrote:I had heard that it was something to do with the fact that lizzie liked the stage actors kind of people and she was always having them over. Back in the victorian era, actors were in the same category as prostitues and the like, and emma wasnt to thrilled to see them over at the house. Plus, I think, Emma was a lot quiter than Lizzie and she wanted to live a quite live.

I hate to nit pick, but at the time Lizzie and Nance met, it was no longer technically "Victorian" times. The "Victorian Era" is said to have lasted from the years 1837-1901 during the reign of Queen Victoria. Lizzie and Nance met in 1904. So though Lizzie would probably still have been living by her victorian upbringing, the era had come to a close. The years between 1901 and 1910 are classified as the "Edwardian Era".

http://www.victoriaspast.com/FrontPorch ... ianera.htm

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Thu Mar 31, 2005 5:16 pm

The Victorian Age was really an English age, not an American, though they shared many of the same customs and values.

The Gilded Age is more American. This period is variously defined by a lot of different ranges of years but generally it encompassed from 1865 to 1900. The term Gilded Age was coined by Mark Twain.

The Victorian Age ended with the death of Queen Victoria and as Allen says the Edwardian Age began.

Pippi · Post by **Pippi** » Thu Mar 31, 2005 8:52 pm

true but actors hadn't gained much respect and were still very much fighting for that in 1904, a few years doesn't change the minds of the older generations

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Thu Mar 31, 2005 9:02 pm

Pippi @ Thu Mar 31, 2005 8:52 pm wrote:true but actors hadn't gained much respect and were still very much fighting for that in 1904, a few years doesn't change the minds of the older generations

I had stated that Lizzie would probably still be living by her victorian upbringing. As would many others of her generation. My point was that most still attritribute this period to the victorian era, when in fact that era had come to an end and another began.

snokkums · Post by **snokkums** » Fri Apr 01, 2005 1:07 pm

I think you are right Nancie, it is almost as compelling as who done it!! And I think that both of them were still living by there Victorian era upbringing, even if it wasn't the victorian era anymore.

Angel · Post by **Angel** » Fri Mar 31, 2006 9:10 am

Emma put up with a Lizzie's idiosyncracies ever since Lizzie was a little girl, so maybe the situation with Nance was just another cross for Emma to bear, but it wasn't enough of a reason to move out on the only family she had. But...what if Emma's indignation was so great that it caused Lizzie to remember the tyranny she used to be under with her parents? Maybe she threatened Emma with the same fate if she continued to give Lizzie grief about her lifestyle, and Emma got frightened enough for her life to feel she HAD to get out of there?

DWilly · Post by **DWilly** » Fri Mar 31, 2006 9:54 am

In my opinion, I think there were a lot of problems between Lizzie and Emma that had gone on for years. In Rebello pg. 310, he writes, " It was reported that the Borden sisters had many long-standing disagreements." Rebello points out two of them: The coachman Joseph Tetrault and later Lizzie's "relationship with theater people, especially Nance O'Neil."

In my own opinion I think Nance O'Neil was the final straw in a long battle between Lizzie and Emma. I also, think that Emma really loved her sister very deeply. There was an interview that Emma gave in I think 1913, after she moved out, and she was still loyal to her baby sister. She even kept Lizzie in her Will. Something spiteful Lizzie did not do.

Angel · Post by **Angel** » Fri Mar 31, 2006 10:30 am

But, don't you think that, whatever the last straw was, it could have resulted in a threat to Emma's life, which would be the reason Emma not only left, but never talked to Lizzie again?

DWilly · Post by **DWilly** » Fri Mar 31, 2006 12:37 pm

Angel @ Fri Mar 31, 2006 11:30 am wrote:But, don't you think that, whatever the last straw was, it could have resulted in a threat to Emma's life, which would be the reason Emma not only left, but never talked to Lizzie again?

Yeah, I can see where Emma might have been afraid. I can well imagine Lizzie and Emma having a huge fight.

Maybe Lizzie even went so far as to hitting Emma. However, I doubt Lizzie would risk having another family member turn up murdered. That would be pushing her luck.

1bigsteve · Post by **1bigsteve** » Sat Apr 01, 2006 4:31 pm

I have always leaned a bit toward the idea that perhaps Emma knew Lizzie did the killing and was willing to stand by Lizzie but when Lizzie started the "high life" that became too much for Emma.

I once read that Emma kept an axe at hand in her own home, after her split with Lizzie. Does anyone know if this is true?

-1bigsteve (o:

snokkums · Post by **snokkums** » Wed Apr 05, 2006 1:58 am

I think Angel is right, maybe there was what she conceaved as a threat to her live. And maybe to she did know that Lizzie did, and the high life she was living was a bit much for Emma. Emma was the quieter of the two, and a little more stable than lizzie.

Davo · Post by **Davo** » Mon Jul 31, 2006 5:54 pm

Yes, I read where in the New Haven house, Emma had a special switch that turned on the lights in the whole downstairs at once and she kept an axe or hatchet in her bedroom. But don't know if this is true or not. Anyone ever wonder if Lizzie and Emma played around sexually and when Lizzie got involved with Nance, Emma left in a jealous huff? Playing devil's advocate here.

Elizabelle · Post by **Elizabelle** » Mon Jul 31, 2006 10:11 pm

Nancie @ Thu Mar 31, 2005 2:55 pm wrote:The question of WHY did Lizzie and Emma split is
almost as compelling as Who Done IT?

True, that.

RayS · Post by **RayS** » Wed Aug 02, 2006 1:45 pm

snokkums @ Thu Mar 31, 2005 8:37 am wrote:I had heard that it was something to do with the fact that lizzie liked the stage actors kind of people and she was always having them over. Back in the victorian era, actors were in the same category as prostitues and the like, and emma wasnt to thrilled to see them over at the house. Plus, I think, Emma was a lot quiter than Lizzie and she wanted to live a quite live.

Is it any different today? Don't they still use the casting couch? What kind of reputation do actresses or actors have today?
Last night there was a special on Marilyn Monroe. They did not use the quote of Walter Winchell who said there was "nothing special" about a lay with Marilyn. Publicity has its price. (Did Tony Curtis look made-up?)
Was it Brown or Spiering who said the real scandal for Fall Riverites is that Nance suckered Lizzie out of thousands of dollars (read hundreds of thousands in today's dollars)?

RayS · Post by **RayS** » Wed Aug 02, 2006 1:52 pm

DWilly @ Fri Mar 31, 2006 10:54 am wrote:In my opinion, I think there were a lot of problems between Lizzie and Emma that had gone on for years. In Rebello pg. 310, he writes, " It was reported that the Borden sisters had many long-standing disagreements." Rebello points out two of them: The coachman Joseph Tetrault and later Lizzie's "relationship with theater people, especially Nance O'Neil."
...

A few months ago they had the HS reunion. I was talking to someone I haven't seen for near 50 years, a retired police detective. He was telling me about how he gave some of his lottery winnings to his 3 widowed sisters, they needed the money for each of their 3 homes.
"So why don't they just move into the same house" I asked. "That's impossible, they can't stand each other" he said. Now itsn't that true for others as well? Years ago I heard that its impossible for two women to live in the same house unless each has their own kitchen.
Your results may vary.
PS No mention about children living or visiting, a complication.

RayS · Post by **RayS** » Wed Aug 02, 2006 1:56 pm

Davo @ Mon Jul 31, 2006 5:54 pm wrote:Yes, I read where in the New Haven house, Emma had a special switch that turned on the lights in the whole downstairs at once and she kept an axe or hatchet in her bedroom. But don't know if this is true or not. ...

Frank Spiering's book gives a lot of background material missing from other books. Spiering's false conclusion is that Emma did it!?
It is worth reading, and it looks great with all those footnotes. But if you look it up, you will see he lists Lizzie's 1897 "confession" even if it was exposed as a forgery by Edward Radin before his 1961 book. That's not fair!

Davo · Post by **Davo** » Wed Aug 02, 2006 2:07 pm

When a kid, my mother's mother lived with us for 14 yrs until she died. She and my mother couldn't get along so mother went to work. Then things were easier. Grandma kept house her way and there was more peace in the house. Perhaps with a mother-daughter type of relationship that Emma and Lizzie had this was similar in their case. Emma thought like a staid proper and prim Victorian lady of the older generation and Lizzie was more ready to embrace the times and fun of the younger generation. Emma seems to have wanted to stay out of the limelight and society while Lizzie wanted to take her place in society and enjoy that type of lifestyle. Lizzie had tasted the joys of Europe and wanted more out of life. Lizzie the society girl and Emma the homebody. The same thing helped break up the Prince Andrew/Sarah Ferguson marriage. He was at sea half of the year. She had to stay home with the kids in between duty engagements. When he had leave he wanted to stay at home and enjoy it and his family and she wanted to go out and party. Two personalities at odds with one another. It would be interesting though to see if the murders were also another reason for the breakup.

Davo · Post by **Davo** » Wed Aug 02, 2006 2:10 pm

I agree with you Ray about the Speiring book but it still makes you wonder why Emma had that switch put in and kept the axe near her at night. I find it hard to believe she did it too but wonder what she was so afraid of?

RayS · Post by **RayS** » Wed Aug 02, 2006 2:18 pm

Davo @ Wed Aug 02, 2006 2:10 pm wrote:I agree with you Ray about the Speiring book but it still makes you wonder why Emma had that switch put in and kept the axe near her at night. I find it hard to believe she did it too but wonder what she was so afraid of?

What was she afraid of? I don't know her neighborhood. But elderly women are often afraid of things, sort of the aging process?
After 60 or 70 you have various aches and pains, and know there's only one solution.
My neighbor was telling me she was afraid of the teenagers who are staying in the park after dark, then walking past her house (she's a widow who lives alone). She's called the police, but they're too busy to drive by just because kids are out after midnight. (What's it like over there?)

RayS · Post by **RayS** » Wed Aug 02, 2006 2:19 pm

This duplication is caused by the inability to cancel out of an edit.
...
What was she afraid of? I don't know her neighborhood. But elderly women are often afraid of things, sort of the aging process?
...

Davo · Post by **Davo** » Wed Aug 02, 2006 2:45 pm

from what I remember she lived with two sisters or something like that although she paid for the house, it was in their name. So I can't see her being afraid of anything in particular. Then again senility can give you unfounded fears so who knows. Haven't read the book in a number of years. It just makes you feel that Emma knew what happened and her age magnified her fear for her safety because she knew whatever it is she knew. It's spooky!

Davo · Post by **Davo** » Wed Aug 02, 2006 2:46 pm

I guess the Borden murders will always be an unfinished jigsaw puzzle.

RayS · Post by **RayS** » Wed Aug 02, 2006 5:05 pm

However a jigsaw can be completed by making pieces to fit.
This assumes a design that can be projected into the blank pieces.
THAT is what the writers who try to solve a puzzle do (Borden Murders, Jack the Ripper, Assassination of JFK, etc.)
Some call it "connecting the dots".
PS
Since all the people who could have done it died before WW II, this case will never be solved, even if it remains a "cold case".
But I wonder if the Jennings' law records record any "loans"? Like to Bridget, say $5,000 for her trip to Ireland, to be repaid when she returns to America. That would explain her return to Canada, train to Chicago (?), and train to Butte Montana. Yes, I'm surmising.

Arnold Brown claims the "Samuel Robinsky" letter was a forgery to draw suspicion away from Lizzie. I wonder who wrote the "Phillip Gordon Reed" letter and posted it from Albany?

Davo · Post by **Davo** » Wed Aug 02, 2006 5:12 pm

What I meant was that it will always be unsolved since there is missing information. With an unfinished jigsaw puzzle we see a partial picture and but not the whole thing and different people see different things.