There is much more evidence that the whole neighborhood knew that this was going to happen.
Just as a single example, Mrs. Churchill not being afraid when she went to help Lizzie.
There are many, many other examples.
could all the world have known this was coming down?
Moderator: Adminlizzieborden
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john
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Allen
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I guess I am in the minority here. I do not think it was so odd that Mrs. Churchill went to Lizzie's aid. The simple fact that Lizzie was still there herself with no appearance of being afraid for her own safety would've lead me to believe I was in no danger. How did Mrs. Churchill know Lizzie and Bridget had not already made a search of the house? Or from what Lizzie said "Oh, Mrs. Churchill, do come over. Someone has killed father." She did not say "Someone has killed father in the house." Or allude to his being in the house. For all Mrs. Churchill knew he could've been killed while he was down street. She did not find out he had been killed there in the house until after she was already there.
"He who cannot put his thoughts on ice should not enter into the head of dispute." - Friedrich Nietzsche
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theebmonique
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Kat
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That's an interesting point. I hadn't thought of that before.Allen @ Mon Apr 18, 2005 10:09 am wrote:She did not say "Someone has killed father in the house." Or allude to his being in the house. For all Mrs. Churchill knew he could've been killed while he was down street. She did not find out he had been killed there in the house until after she was already there.
Of course, Mrs. Churchill might have had some understanding of the situation instinctively, which she does not include in her recounting of the conversation.
But still, it's a good point.
I don't know about the whole neighborhood knowing what was about to happen. But the whole neighborhood should have known about the robbery the year before because the police questioned everyone.
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Audrey
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I also fail to see how the whole neighborhood knew this was going to happen....
I can perhaps agree that they might not have been shocked... Like when a couple who their friends and neighbors see bickering for years divorce.. We all say things like "I was not shocked to hear about their divorce" but that does not mean we would predict it...
I can answer for Tracy as to how many examples...
As many as you have and then the rest of us can decide if it counts as many, many examples...
Time to put your money where you mouth is for once!
I can perhaps agree that they might not have been shocked... Like when a couple who their friends and neighbors see bickering for years divorce.. We all say things like "I was not shocked to hear about their divorce" but that does not mean we would predict it...
I can answer for Tracy as to how many examples...
As many as you have and then the rest of us can decide if it counts as many, many examples...
Time to put your money where you mouth is for once!
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Audrey
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PS....
I think that if my neighbor yoo hoo'd over the fence to me to come over that someone in her family had been murdered I would hot foot it right over there without thinking....
That DOES not mean I was in the know..
Maybe women react to calls for help differently than men.. and perhaps some people are more suspicious than others due to how they live their lives... IE-- criminals who sleep with guns nearby and are always on guard versus a minister who looks for and believes in the good in all people.
Maybe Mrs C's karma never led her to be suspicious.
I think that if my neighbor yoo hoo'd over the fence to me to come over that someone in her family had been murdered I would hot foot it right over there without thinking....
That DOES not mean I was in the know..
Maybe women react to calls for help differently than men.. and perhaps some people are more suspicious than others due to how they live their lives... IE-- criminals who sleep with guns nearby and are always on guard versus a minister who looks for and believes in the good in all people.
Maybe Mrs C's karma never led her to be suspicious.
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theebmonique
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As has been stated john, it's not so much the number of examples, but the number of legitimate ones that you would care to offer without the goofy undertones. Sometimes you have some very interesting things to say, but it becomes difficult to stay interested when you put your answers in a form resembling a Dr. Suess story. I so very much want to believe you have some interesting things to share with us, it's just that you make it difficult when you don't seem to take it serious...as though you are making fun of those of us who do. By all means, speak on if you truly have something to say.
Tracy...
Tracy...
I'm defying gravity and you can't pull me down.
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FairhavenGuy
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How about just one more, for a start?john @ Mon Apr 18, 2005 9:01 pm wrote:OK Theebmonique, how many examples would satisfy you?
I've met Kat and Harry and Stef, oh my!
(And Diana, Richard, nbcatlover, Doug Parkhurst and Marilou, Shelley, "Cemetery" Jeff, Nadzieja, kfactor, Barbara, JoAnne, Michael, Katrina and my 255 character limit is up.)
(And Diana, Richard, nbcatlover, Doug Parkhurst and Marilou, Shelley, "Cemetery" Jeff, Nadzieja, kfactor, Barbara, JoAnne, Michael, Katrina and my 255 character limit is up.)
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john
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OK Audrey, why did Dr. Bowen just happen to show up at pre 11:00 long before dinner, on the day of the murders?
Why did Dr. Dolan, county medical examiner who lived in New Bedford, happen by shortly after the murders?
Why did the police send a totally inexperienced patrollman to the site of a "row at the Borden house," while it was known at the same time by a passerby that there was a murder, instead of an experienced sergeant who stayed at the police station?
Why would Mrs. Churchill change her dress unless she knew it was a biggie, and she would be viewed by others, and of course as we've said, she knew there was no longer a threat at the Borden house.
Why wouldn't Mrs. Bowen come over after Bridget's visit, or offer to telephone the police if Bridget told her there was a murder or an attack, or more strangely, why didn't Bridget tell her?
Why didn't Bridget just run away?
Why did Mrs. Kelly leave shortly before dinner time?
Why if Bridget was to go for a Doctor, didn't she go to Dr. Kelly's house after finding Dr. Bowen not at home?
Why would Dr. Bowen find Mr. Borden so interesting that he asked Mrs. Churchill to see him unless he needed her to see something? The only thing she could have seen besides his dead form would be keys that were now on the mantle.
Is that the first attempt by the perpetrator/s to cover a mistake?
Why would Dr. Bowen bring back a group of keys when he was sent for one key, and more furtherly why would he go back and get the right key?
Do you like Buck Owens Audrey?
Why would Lizzie call for a Doctor instead of the police?
Why would a Doctor suddenly appear when she called?
Why would a woman state that she had seen Dr. Bowen (whom she knew personally) and a young man traveling at "high speed" shortly after the murders?
Why would there be impacts of two persons (about the same size) in the barn hay?
Again, why would Andrew lock the barn at night, but pin it during the day?
Now I know that all the comments will be about Mrs. Kelly's dentist appointment.
Why did Dr. Dolan, county medical examiner who lived in New Bedford, happen by shortly after the murders?
Why did the police send a totally inexperienced patrollman to the site of a "row at the Borden house," while it was known at the same time by a passerby that there was a murder, instead of an experienced sergeant who stayed at the police station?
Why would Mrs. Churchill change her dress unless she knew it was a biggie, and she would be viewed by others, and of course as we've said, she knew there was no longer a threat at the Borden house.
Why wouldn't Mrs. Bowen come over after Bridget's visit, or offer to telephone the police if Bridget told her there was a murder or an attack, or more strangely, why didn't Bridget tell her?
Why didn't Bridget just run away?
Why did Mrs. Kelly leave shortly before dinner time?
Why if Bridget was to go for a Doctor, didn't she go to Dr. Kelly's house after finding Dr. Bowen not at home?
Why would Dr. Bowen find Mr. Borden so interesting that he asked Mrs. Churchill to see him unless he needed her to see something? The only thing she could have seen besides his dead form would be keys that were now on the mantle.
Is that the first attempt by the perpetrator/s to cover a mistake?
Why would Dr. Bowen bring back a group of keys when he was sent for one key, and more furtherly why would he go back and get the right key?
Do you like Buck Owens Audrey?
Why would Lizzie call for a Doctor instead of the police?
Why would a Doctor suddenly appear when she called?
Why would a woman state that she had seen Dr. Bowen (whom she knew personally) and a young man traveling at "high speed" shortly after the murders?
Why would there be impacts of two persons (about the same size) in the barn hay?
Again, why would Andrew lock the barn at night, but pin it during the day?
Now I know that all the comments will be about Mrs. Kelly's dentist appointment.
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john
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Further, Audrey, I'm not going to give you solution on a plate. If you want this thing badly enough, I'll give you the answer because I like you. For me, I'm out of town too much and don't know what people say about me, and people use my puter, but I think I have this room locked out now. Anyway, I used to be interested in Lizzie, but not much anymore. Hey for $ 5,000 I can teach you how to stay in a casino all day and not spend any money, and for $ 10,000 I can teach you to walk with cash - every day!
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Audrey
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please, give me the answer.
You can IM me here or email me through the forum.
As an aside-- Have you ever been to Monte Carlo?
When I was a bit younger I attended the famous "Le Bal Crillon des Debutantes" and met a man who was a well known professional gambler there... I think I made one round on the dance floor with him before one of the chaperons interrupted and sent him packing....
You can IM me here or email me through the forum.
As an aside-- Have you ever been to Monte Carlo?
When I was a bit younger I attended the famous "Le Bal Crillon des Debutantes" and met a man who was a well known professional gambler there... I think I made one round on the dance floor with him before one of the chaperons interrupted and sent him packing....
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john
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Wow - I bet he was thrilled to be dancing with the beautiful Audrey. I'm not very well known as your dancer was - I like onions and pretty girls and flowers and the moon and summer breeze and tourists and spiders.
But I do make money.
I like to watch little things and to know they are alive and to wonder about them and to not run over skunks on the road and to listen to the chatter of gophers and to watch crows and listen for their messages.
I will tell you but I don't know what IM means.
On a $400 start i'll guarantee you $600 on my expanded program. This will cost you only $ 1,000 up front, so the worst you can do is $400 behind and I'll be by you setting up the machine (you can't watch) as you go, so you always have my guidance, especially because I take 25% of the top over $1,000. So you can make $1,000 and quit which is advisable and keeps me from being a recognizable gambler. Then you know how to do it. I've hit back to back royal flushes and specialize in video poker but can advise on most games.
But I do make money.
I like to watch little things and to know they are alive and to wonder about them and to not run over skunks on the road and to listen to the chatter of gophers and to watch crows and listen for their messages.
I will tell you but I don't know what IM means.
On a $400 start i'll guarantee you $600 on my expanded program. This will cost you only $ 1,000 up front, so the worst you can do is $400 behind and I'll be by you setting up the machine (you can't watch) as you go, so you always have my guidance, especially because I take 25% of the top over $1,000. So you can make $1,000 and quit which is advisable and keeps me from being a recognizable gambler. Then you know how to do it. I've hit back to back royal flushes and specialize in video poker but can advise on most games.
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Kat
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"...why did Dr. Bowen just happen to show up at pre 11:00 long before dinner, on the day of the murders?"
"Why did Dr. Dolan, county medical examiner who lived in New Bedford, happen by shortly after the murders?"
"Why did the police send a totally inexperienced patrollman to the site of a 'row at the Borden house,' while it was known at the same time by a passerby that there was a murder, instead of an experienced sergeant who stayed at the police station?"
"Why would Mrs. Churchill change her dress unless she knew it was a biggie, and she would be viewed by others, and of course as we've said, she knew there was no longer a threat at the Borden house."
"Why did Mrs. Kelly leave shortly before dinner time?"
["Why if Bridget was to go for a Doctor, didn't she go to Dr. Kelly's house after finding Dr. Bowen not at home?"]--optional: can probably be answered.
"Why would a woman state that she had seen Dr. Bowen (whom she knew personally) and a young man traveling at "high speed" shortly after the murders?"
"Why would there be impacts of two persons (about the same size) in the barn hay?"
"Again, why would Andrew lock the barn at night, but pin it during the day?"
--These are the suspect questions. Can you find these answers in the testimonies? The "high speed" question I believe is in the Knowlton Papers.
Does the solution change?
"Why did Dr. Dolan, county medical examiner who lived in New Bedford, happen by shortly after the murders?"
"Why did the police send a totally inexperienced patrollman to the site of a 'row at the Borden house,' while it was known at the same time by a passerby that there was a murder, instead of an experienced sergeant who stayed at the police station?"
"Why would Mrs. Churchill change her dress unless she knew it was a biggie, and she would be viewed by others, and of course as we've said, she knew there was no longer a threat at the Borden house."
"Why did Mrs. Kelly leave shortly before dinner time?"
["Why if Bridget was to go for a Doctor, didn't she go to Dr. Kelly's house after finding Dr. Bowen not at home?"]--optional: can probably be answered.
"Why would a woman state that she had seen Dr. Bowen (whom she knew personally) and a young man traveling at "high speed" shortly after the murders?"
"Why would there be impacts of two persons (about the same size) in the barn hay?"
"Again, why would Andrew lock the barn at night, but pin it during the day?"
--These are the suspect questions. Can you find these answers in the testimonies? The "high speed" question I believe is in the Knowlton Papers.
Does the solution change?
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john
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Yes, Knowlton Papers which I used to have for "high speed."
Dr. Bowen showed up I think suspiciously timing wise at the almost exact time after the murders.
Dr. Dolan, akin to the Mayor or Governor driving by your house every day just happened to be driving by the day of the murders.
That the police sent an inexperienced man, he did an adequate job for him I guess, though he failed to check even the whole house, while a more experienced officer waited at the police station to answer the telephone.
This is concrete testimony, further the officer sent left a crime scene, and that is a factor that is hammered into police from day one. The policeman had lots of options, and RIP, but he really screwed up.
If Abby, the closest person we can examine to Mrs. Churchill and the dress changing, didn't change her dress to go out on a sick call, why would Mrs. Churchill change her dress to go next door to help someone about a murder? I know you're knitpicking here, but you have to admit that is strange.
Mrs. Kelley of course went to the dentist, but she also exampled the unusual perception of people watching the Bordens. Why? If they were just weird then they would just always be weird. Perhaps there was more than a weird thing that the neighbors were watching.
Of course the big question re: Bridget was why didn't she try to find a telephone to call the police, or Lizzie ask her to go for the police?
The barn question has been addressed and is still up in the air as far as I'm concerned. If the first thing Mr. Borden did in the morning was unlock the barn (and why?) there must have been something important involved in this (symbolism?).
And you ask, does the solution change?
No.
Something more than this room has looked at was going on that murderous day and for a few months befores. Something more than conductor's caps and colluded milk and pidgeon's throats and Europe.
Something more than wild eyed men and women who watch and children who sing and busted hatchets.
Listen now and you will hear, of the midnite ride of Paul Revere.
Dr. Bowen showed up I think suspiciously timing wise at the almost exact time after the murders.
Dr. Dolan, akin to the Mayor or Governor driving by your house every day just happened to be driving by the day of the murders.
That the police sent an inexperienced man, he did an adequate job for him I guess, though he failed to check even the whole house, while a more experienced officer waited at the police station to answer the telephone.
This is concrete testimony, further the officer sent left a crime scene, and that is a factor that is hammered into police from day one. The policeman had lots of options, and RIP, but he really screwed up.
If Abby, the closest person we can examine to Mrs. Churchill and the dress changing, didn't change her dress to go out on a sick call, why would Mrs. Churchill change her dress to go next door to help someone about a murder? I know you're knitpicking here, but you have to admit that is strange.
Mrs. Kelley of course went to the dentist, but she also exampled the unusual perception of people watching the Bordens. Why? If they were just weird then they would just always be weird. Perhaps there was more than a weird thing that the neighbors were watching.
Of course the big question re: Bridget was why didn't she try to find a telephone to call the police, or Lizzie ask her to go for the police?
The barn question has been addressed and is still up in the air as far as I'm concerned. If the first thing Mr. Borden did in the morning was unlock the barn (and why?) there must have been something important involved in this (symbolism?).
And you ask, does the solution change?
No.
Something more than this room has looked at was going on that murderous day and for a few months befores. Something more than conductor's caps and colluded milk and pidgeon's throats and Europe.
Something more than wild eyed men and women who watch and children who sing and busted hatchets.
Listen now and you will hear, of the midnite ride of Paul Revere.
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Allen
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When exactly did Mrs. Churchill change her dress?john @ Tue Apr 19, 2005 11:32 am wrote:.
If Abby, the closest person we can examine to Mrs. Churchill and the dress changing, didn't change her dress to go out on a sick call, why would Mrs. Churchill change her dress to go next door to help someone about a murder? I know you're knitpicking here, but you have to admit that is strange.
"He who cannot put his thoughts on ice should not enter into the head of dispute." - Friedrich Nietzsche
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Allen
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This is what I was trying to get at with John. I think John has some of his facts askew.Smudgeman @ Tue Apr 19, 2005 3:19 pm wrote:If I remember correctly, Mrs. Churchill never changed her dress, it was Alice Russell who changed before she came over to the Bordens.
"He who cannot put his thoughts on ice should not enter into the head of dispute." - Friedrich Nietzsche
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Smudgeman
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john @ Mon Apr 18, 2005 10:07 pm wrote:OK Audrey, why did Dr. Bowen just happen to show up at pre 11:00 long before dinner, on the day of the murders?
Why did Dr. Dolan, county medical examiner who lived in New Bedford, happen by shortly after the murders?
Why did the police send a totally inexperienced patrollman to the site of a "row at the Borden house," while it was known at the same time by a passerby that there was a murder, instead of an experienced sergeant who stayed at the police station?
Why would Mrs. Churchill change her dress unless she knew it was a biggie, and she would be viewed by others, and of course as we've said, she knew there was no longer a threat at the Borden house.
Why wouldn't Mrs. Bowen come over after Bridget's visit, or offer to telephone the police if Bridget told her there was a murder or an attack, or more strangely, why didn't Bridget tell her?
Why didn't Bridget just run away?
Why did Mrs. Kelly leave shortly before dinner time?
Why if Bridget was to go for a Doctor, didn't she go to Dr. Kelly's house after finding Dr. Bowen not at home?
Why would Dr. Bowen find Mr. Borden so interesting that he asked Mrs. Churchill to see him unless he needed her to see something? The only thing she could have seen besides his dead form would be keys that were now on the mantle.
Is that the first attempt by the perpetrator/s to cover a mistake?
Why would Dr. Bowen bring back a group of keys when he was sent for one key, and more furtherly why would he go back and get the right key?
Do you like Buck Owens Audrey?
Why would Lizzie call for a Doctor instead of the police?
Why would a Doctor suddenly appear when she called?
Why would a woman state that she had seen Dr. Bowen (whom she knew personally) and a young man traveling at "high speed" shortly after the murders?
Why would there be impacts of two persons (about the same size) in the barn hay?
Again, why would Andrew lock the barn at night, but pin it during the day?
Now I know that all the comments will be about Mrs. Kelly's dentist appointment.
Well let's see just off the top of my head, Mrs. Churchill never changed her dress.
Mrs. Bowen did come over, Bridget asked her to come over.
I don't think Dr. Bowen just happened to come over, Bridget was looking for him, and had been to his house twice to find him.
Why in the world would Bridget just run away? That would make her look guilty as sin.
Dr. Bowen asking Mrs. Churchill to come look at Andrew is a bit odd to me, for what?
That is all I can come up with for now, anybody else?
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Allen
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The question should be why would a totally experienced sergeant leave the station and leave a less experienced patrollman in charge? Wasn't the rest of the police force away at the picnic??john @ Mon Apr 18, 2005 10:07 pm wrote: Why did the police send a totally inexperienced patrollman to the site of a "row at the Borden house," while it was known at the same time by a passerby that there was a murder, instead of an experienced sergeant who stayed at the police station?
Why would Dr. Bowen find Mr. Borden so interesting that he asked Mrs. Churchill to see him unless he needed her to see something? The only thing she could have seen besides his dead form would be keys that were now on the mantle.
Again, why would Andrew lock the barn at night, but pin it during the day?
That is actually an excellent question about Dr. Bowen asking Mrs. Churchill to come and look. I will give you that one.
Wouldn't Andrew lock the barn because there had been previous break ins?
"He who cannot put his thoughts on ice should not enter into the head of dispute." - Friedrich Nietzsche
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Kat
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Can you guys show what the error is in each of these questions? These are the ones I culled as being based in error. Based on the material?
Yes about the dress changing person being Alice.
"...why did Dr. Bowen just happen to show up at pre 11:00 long before dinner, on the day of the murders?"
"Why did Dr. Dolan, county medical examiner who lived in New Bedford, happen by shortly after the murders?"
"Why did the police send a totally inexperienced patrollman to the site of a 'row at the Borden house,' while it was known at the same time by a passerby that there was a murder, instead of an experienced sergeant who stayed at the police station?"
"Why did Mrs. Kelly leave shortly before dinner time?"
["Why if Bridget was to go for a Doctor, didn't she go to Dr. Kelly's house after finding Dr. Bowen not at home?"]--optional: can probably be answered.
**"Why would a woman state that she had seen Dr. Bowen (whom she knew personally) and a young man traveling at "high speed" shortly after the murders?"
"Why would there be impacts of two persons (about the same size) in the barn hay?"
"Again, why would Andrew lock the barn at night, but pin it during the day?"
__________
**Will remove this question. It could have been a woman who wrote this, possibly. Also, tho, the writer states it was quarter to 11 and it's stretching it to say Andrew was dead already:
"#HK113
Letter, handwritten in ink, enclosed in holograph envelope.
Fall River Dec 2nd/92
I have a few words of importance that I think will be of service in
Lizzie Borden’s Case. on the day of the murder I was coming towards Fall
River from the Shove Mill, where I met Doctor Bowen and a young man
In a Carriage, driving so fast that I turned around to look after them. I
thought at the time that someone was dieing and He was going to see
them. I am well acquainted with Him, but I never saw Him look so wild in
my life before, it was about 15 fifteen minets to eleven. the young man
was sitting on the left side of the Doctor. I met them near the Slade
School house, the Doctor had hold of the reins with boath hands, driving
for dear life. has Doctor Bowen ever been questioned were He was on the
morning of the Murder. this is the truth and nothing but the truth."
Yes about the dress changing person being Alice.
"...why did Dr. Bowen just happen to show up at pre 11:00 long before dinner, on the day of the murders?"
"Why did Dr. Dolan, county medical examiner who lived in New Bedford, happen by shortly after the murders?"
"Why did the police send a totally inexperienced patrollman to the site of a 'row at the Borden house,' while it was known at the same time by a passerby that there was a murder, instead of an experienced sergeant who stayed at the police station?"
"Why did Mrs. Kelly leave shortly before dinner time?"
["Why if Bridget was to go for a Doctor, didn't she go to Dr. Kelly's house after finding Dr. Bowen not at home?"]--optional: can probably be answered.
**"Why would a woman state that she had seen Dr. Bowen (whom she knew personally) and a young man traveling at "high speed" shortly after the murders?"
"Why would there be impacts of two persons (about the same size) in the barn hay?"
"Again, why would Andrew lock the barn at night, but pin it during the day?"
__________
**Will remove this question. It could have been a woman who wrote this, possibly. Also, tho, the writer states it was quarter to 11 and it's stretching it to say Andrew was dead already:
"#HK113
Letter, handwritten in ink, enclosed in holograph envelope.
Fall River Dec 2nd/92
I have a few words of importance that I think will be of service in
Lizzie Borden’s Case. on the day of the murder I was coming towards Fall
River from the Shove Mill, where I met Doctor Bowen and a young man
In a Carriage, driving so fast that I turned around to look after them. I
thought at the time that someone was dieing and He was going to see
them. I am well acquainted with Him, but I never saw Him look so wild in
my life before, it was about 15 fifteen minets to eleven. the young man
was sitting on the left side of the Doctor. I met them near the Slade
School house, the Doctor had hold of the reins with boath hands, driving
for dear life. has Doctor Bowen ever been questioned were He was on the
morning of the Murder. this is the truth and nothing but the truth."
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theebmonique
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One of the questions mentioned Mrs. Churchill changing her dress before she went over to the Borden house, but it seems we have known and have determined that it was in fact Alice Russell who's name should have been in that question. I checked some of Alice's testimony (Inquest, Prelim, Trial) and found the following three times where she mentions changing her dress before going over to the Borden house on August 4th. I put those specific statements in bold/italics.
Alice - Inquest
147
A. I went in there, I am sure, once after Emma had gone to Fairhaven.
Q. Who were you more particularly intimate with, Emma or Lizzie, or both?
A. I dont t1rink there was very much difference.
Q. What was the first that you saw or observed, or heard, of this tragedy?
A. I think It was about quarter past eleven when I saw Bridget coming up the steps, and my work is so I can see anyone coming up the steps, where I was at work.. I knew there was trouble because Lizzie told me Mr. and Mrs. Borden were sick the night before, very sick, so the first impression I got was that somebody was sick there.
Q. She told you Tuesday night they were sick?
A. Yes Sir. I stepped to the door, and I says "what is it Bridget, are they worse", or Maggie. She says, "yes, I dont know but what Mr. Borden is dead." I dont know whether she said "come over". I dont remember what she said. I said "I will come right over as soon as I change my dress; which I did.
Q. She did not tell you how he had been killed, or anything of that sort?
A. She did not, no.
Q. She said what?
A. She says "he is worse, I dont know but what Mr. Borden is dead."
Q. You did nottake much time to change your dress?
A. No Sir I did not.
Q. You went over as quick as you could?
A. Yes Sir.
Alice - Prelim - (Knowlton)
Q. As near as you can fix it, when was it?
A. I thought that day it was quarter past eleven; I do not know why i thought so, now.
Page 264
(290)
Q. Have you corne to any different opinion now?
A. No Sir. I have forgotten how I placed the time.
Q. What did you do then, Miss Russell, when she called you?
A. I went to the door when I saw her corning up the steps.
Q. What was said I do not care for. She called you; what happened then, what did you do?
A. I went over. I changed my dress though before I went
Q. Did you hurry to get over?
A. I thought I hurried; I do not know whether I did or not.
Q. When you got there, who did you find there?
A. I am not positive who I found. I saw Lizzie.
Alice - Trial - (Moody)
Q. Upon the next morning, August 4th, did you receive a visit from Bridget Sullivan?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. About what time was it?
A. I don't know what time it was.
Q. Did you have occasion to notice the time?
A. Not after eleven.
Q. Did you notice the eleven o'clock bell?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Was it before or after that bell that Bridget came to you?
A. After.
Q. What were you doing when she came?
A. I was at my work.
Q. In consequence of anything that she said to you did you go anywhere?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Where did you go?
A. I went upstairs.
Q. And what did you do upstairs?
A. Changed my dress.
Q. What did you do then?
A. I went over to Mr. Borden's.
Alice - Inquest
147
A. I went in there, I am sure, once after Emma had gone to Fairhaven.
Q. Who were you more particularly intimate with, Emma or Lizzie, or both?
A. I dont t1rink there was very much difference.
Q. What was the first that you saw or observed, or heard, of this tragedy?
A. I think It was about quarter past eleven when I saw Bridget coming up the steps, and my work is so I can see anyone coming up the steps, where I was at work.. I knew there was trouble because Lizzie told me Mr. and Mrs. Borden were sick the night before, very sick, so the first impression I got was that somebody was sick there.
Q. She told you Tuesday night they were sick?
A. Yes Sir. I stepped to the door, and I says "what is it Bridget, are they worse", or Maggie. She says, "yes, I dont know but what Mr. Borden is dead." I dont know whether she said "come over". I dont remember what she said. I said "I will come right over as soon as I change my dress; which I did.
Q. She did not tell you how he had been killed, or anything of that sort?
A. She did not, no.
Q. She said what?
A. She says "he is worse, I dont know but what Mr. Borden is dead."
Q. You did nottake much time to change your dress?
A. No Sir I did not.
Q. You went over as quick as you could?
A. Yes Sir.
Alice - Prelim - (Knowlton)
Q. As near as you can fix it, when was it?
A. I thought that day it was quarter past eleven; I do not know why i thought so, now.
Page 264
(290)
Q. Have you corne to any different opinion now?
A. No Sir. I have forgotten how I placed the time.
Q. What did you do then, Miss Russell, when she called you?
A. I went to the door when I saw her corning up the steps.
Q. What was said I do not care for. She called you; what happened then, what did you do?
A. I went over. I changed my dress though before I went
Q. Did you hurry to get over?
A. I thought I hurried; I do not know whether I did or not.
Q. When you got there, who did you find there?
A. I am not positive who I found. I saw Lizzie.
Alice - Trial - (Moody)
Q. Upon the next morning, August 4th, did you receive a visit from Bridget Sullivan?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. About what time was it?
A. I don't know what time it was.
Q. Did you have occasion to notice the time?
A. Not after eleven.
Q. Did you notice the eleven o'clock bell?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Was it before or after that bell that Bridget came to you?
A. After.
Q. What were you doing when she came?
A. I was at my work.
Q. In consequence of anything that she said to you did you go anywhere?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Where did you go?
A. I went upstairs.
Q. And what did you do upstairs?
A. Changed my dress.
Q. What did you do then?
A. I went over to Mr. Borden's.
I'm defying gravity and you can't pull me down.
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Kat
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john
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Yes, it was Alice who changed her dress, same question though, unless Alice was flakey as Kat says she wasn't.
Why would Bridget think she might be guilty of something if she had just been woken up?
Also, another Lizzie double story - telling Bridget khat her Father is hurt, but telling Mrs. Churchill that her Father had been killed.
Why Bridget didn't just run away is a legitimate question.
The police are another legitimate question. The officer that was sent was experienced enough to handle jail entries and could probably have handled the station until others arrived, unless something was known or suspected ahead of time, and an inexperienced officer was desirable. I think this happened in the Simpson case. Mark Fuhrman (whom I like) can say all he likes about what happened that night, but if that glove really was behind the small apartments, there would be a blood trail to it, which there wasn't, yet there was a blood trail going everywhere else.
If Mrs. Bowen went to the Borden home prior to Dr. Bowen returning home how would the Doctor know anyone was looking for him? If Dr. Bowen showed up in response to their being needed by Bridget's visit, how would Mrs. Bowen have reached him? Did she call him at his office? If so why didn't she call the police first? His office was more than likely in their home anyway, but I don't know.
I think the big question is, why didn't someone try to contact the police right away, meaning Lizzie or Bridget, like Mrs. Churchill immediately did.
I still think it's unusual that Mrs. Bowen was asked to leave.
Did Mrs. Bowen change her dress before coming over? Maybe that was the problem - her dress was a mess.
Why would Bridget think she might be guilty of something if she had just been woken up?
Also, another Lizzie double story - telling Bridget khat her Father is hurt, but telling Mrs. Churchill that her Father had been killed.
Why Bridget didn't just run away is a legitimate question.
The police are another legitimate question. The officer that was sent was experienced enough to handle jail entries and could probably have handled the station until others arrived, unless something was known or suspected ahead of time, and an inexperienced officer was desirable. I think this happened in the Simpson case. Mark Fuhrman (whom I like) can say all he likes about what happened that night, but if that glove really was behind the small apartments, there would be a blood trail to it, which there wasn't, yet there was a blood trail going everywhere else.
If Mrs. Bowen went to the Borden home prior to Dr. Bowen returning home how would the Doctor know anyone was looking for him? If Dr. Bowen showed up in response to their being needed by Bridget's visit, how would Mrs. Bowen have reached him? Did she call him at his office? If so why didn't she call the police first? His office was more than likely in their home anyway, but I don't know.
I think the big question is, why didn't someone try to contact the police right away, meaning Lizzie or Bridget, like Mrs. Churchill immediately did.
I still think it's unusual that Mrs. Bowen was asked to leave.
Did Mrs. Bowen change her dress before coming over? Maybe that was the problem - her dress was a mess.
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Kat
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""Why did Dr. Dolan, county medical examiner who lived in New Bedford, happen by shortly after the murders?"-john
Dr. Dolan lived in Fall River. He was born in Shirley, Mass. but they moved to Fall River when he was young and he went to his primary school there and married a local girl there after graduating from all his special colleges elsewhere.
He also died in Fall River, 1922.
--source Rebello, 99.
Dr. Dolan lived in Fall River. He was born in Shirley, Mass. but they moved to Fall River when he was young and he went to his primary school there and married a local girl there after graduating from all his special colleges elsewhere.
He also died in Fall River, 1922.
--source Rebello, 99.
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Kat
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"...why did Dr. Bowen just happen to show up at pre 11:00 long before dinner, on the day of the murders?" --john
He first thought he had shown up home around 20 after 11 but he thought about it and decided it was more like 10 minutes after 11. The call went to the police around 15 minutes after 11, so it probably was nearer to that time.
Notice that he says he likes to swing around near home once an hour.
Inquest
Dr. Bowen
Q. You go out on your travels at nine o’clock, or thereabouts?
A. I intend to.
117 (24)
Q. Get back when, or no habit about it?
A. I intend to be around probably once an hour, if I can.
Q. What was the first information that you had of the tragedy.
A. I drove up to my house, and my wife came to the door, and made a motion, and says “they want you quick over to Mr. Borden’s.” The same time I think Thomas Bowles, a man that works across the street told me, at the same time, I dont know which was first. I thought probably they were worse, so I went right over quick.
......
117
I spoke pretty quick. I says “what is the matter Lizzie?” She said she was afraid her father had been stabbed or hurt. I think the word stabbed was used.
......
124
Q. The marshal reminds me to ask you, dont you think on recollection, the first man that got there after you did, was Officer Allen?
A. I could not say. It might have been.
Q. Do you remember of saying to Mr. Allen “go and get the police as fast as you can?”
A. I said that to somebody, I was excited.
Q. Have you been able to fix the time when you first went over to the house?
A. I have changed my mind on the time. I had no means only guess at first, but I deliberated, and finding out as near as I can, I must have been---I must have stopped my horse in front of my house not very far from ten minutes past eleven. That is about ten minutes earlier than I thought at first. But on asking my boy, he told me where I was at a certain time when the clock struck. By thinking it over sufficiently I think it was earlier than my first impression. My first impression was just an impression.
Q. What was your first impression?
A. Between 20 and 25 minutes.
Q. On further reflection?
A. On further reflection, and judging from what my boy told me where I was, and who we met at a certain time, I think it must have been quite a good deal earlier.
Q. About what time do you now think it was?
A. Not very far from ten minutes past eleven. It might have been five or ten minutes either way, when I drove up to the house and went in.
Q. When you got the news and went in?
A. Yes Sir. I could not have stayed in there more than five minutes.
He first thought he had shown up home around 20 after 11 but he thought about it and decided it was more like 10 minutes after 11. The call went to the police around 15 minutes after 11, so it probably was nearer to that time.
Notice that he says he likes to swing around near home once an hour.
Inquest
Dr. Bowen
Q. You go out on your travels at nine o’clock, or thereabouts?
A. I intend to.
117 (24)
Q. Get back when, or no habit about it?
A. I intend to be around probably once an hour, if I can.
Q. What was the first information that you had of the tragedy.
A. I drove up to my house, and my wife came to the door, and made a motion, and says “they want you quick over to Mr. Borden’s.” The same time I think Thomas Bowles, a man that works across the street told me, at the same time, I dont know which was first. I thought probably they were worse, so I went right over quick.
......
117
I spoke pretty quick. I says “what is the matter Lizzie?” She said she was afraid her father had been stabbed or hurt. I think the word stabbed was used.
......
124
Q. The marshal reminds me to ask you, dont you think on recollection, the first man that got there after you did, was Officer Allen?
A. I could not say. It might have been.
Q. Do you remember of saying to Mr. Allen “go and get the police as fast as you can?”
A. I said that to somebody, I was excited.
Q. Have you been able to fix the time when you first went over to the house?
A. I have changed my mind on the time. I had no means only guess at first, but I deliberated, and finding out as near as I can, I must have been---I must have stopped my horse in front of my house not very far from ten minutes past eleven. That is about ten minutes earlier than I thought at first. But on asking my boy, he told me where I was at a certain time when the clock struck. By thinking it over sufficiently I think it was earlier than my first impression. My first impression was just an impression.
Q. What was your first impression?
A. Between 20 and 25 minutes.
Q. On further reflection?
A. On further reflection, and judging from what my boy told me where I was, and who we met at a certain time, I think it must have been quite a good deal earlier.
Q. About what time do you now think it was?
A. Not very far from ten minutes past eleven. It might have been five or ten minutes either way, when I drove up to the house and went in.
Q. When you got the news and went in?
A. Yes Sir. I could not have stayed in there more than five minutes.
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Kat
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"Why did the police send a totally inexperienced patrollman to the site of a 'row at the Borden house,' while it was known at the same time by a passerby that there was a murder, instead of an experienced sergeant who stayed at the police station?"--john
I am interested to know from where this information comes, as you've brought it up a couple of times?
I am interested to know from where this information comes, as you've brought it up a couple of times?
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john
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Dolan's office was in New Bedford - I assumed he lived there. Not so far away, but the point is that it's unusual for him to be driving by the scene of multiple murders within an hour of when they happened. It's even more odd that both Bowen and Dolen would show up. Like the old saying, "where's the police when you need them?,"
(That ?, is gramatically correct Allen,) if they needed Doctors there they had two, perhaps three if Morse was a PHD.
(That ?, is gramatically correct Allen,) if they needed Doctors there they had two, perhaps three if Morse was a PHD.
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FairhavenGuy
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No, John, you're wrong. The county seat of Bristol County, MA, is Taunton. Many of the county offices were and are based there, though some district branches were set up in New Bedford, and probably in Fall River and Attleboro, too, for the convenience of the residents in those cities. There certainly are county courts in all of those locations.
I do not know about the Medical Examiner's office, but I think in that case, there wasn't an "office" in a building someplace where Dolan reported to work each day. He was a medical doctor with a practice as well as his official county position. On any given day he would most likely have been in his home town unless called off somewhere else.
I repeat, this is a guess regarding the medical examiner's office. I'll try to research it further.
John, it is not a good idea to state things as fact unless you have documentation to back it up.
I do not know about the Medical Examiner's office, but I think in that case, there wasn't an "office" in a building someplace where Dolan reported to work each day. He was a medical doctor with a practice as well as his official county position. On any given day he would most likely have been in his home town unless called off somewhere else.
I repeat, this is a guess regarding the medical examiner's office. I'll try to research it further.
John, it is not a good idea to state things as fact unless you have documentation to back it up.
I've met Kat and Harry and Stef, oh my!
(And Diana, Richard, nbcatlover, Doug Parkhurst and Marilou, Shelley, "Cemetery" Jeff, Nadzieja, kfactor, Barbara, JoAnne, Michael, Katrina and my 255 character limit is up.)
(And Diana, Richard, nbcatlover, Doug Parkhurst and Marilou, Shelley, "Cemetery" Jeff, Nadzieja, kfactor, Barbara, JoAnne, Michael, Katrina and my 255 character limit is up.)
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Audrey
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As per the changing of the dress...
I don't think it was all that unusual once you read the testimony...
Bridget did not arrive at Alice's doorstep screaming bloody murder. Alice was told Andrew might be dead.... Alice thought that the sickness which she believed was in the house had worsened..
Despite the crisis delivered to my door needing me to rush off to deal with it-- I would stop to get my purse, run a hand over my hair and put on some lip stick before leaving....
I don't think it was all that unusual once you read the testimony...
Bridget did not arrive at Alice's doorstep screaming bloody murder. Alice was told Andrew might be dead.... Alice thought that the sickness which she believed was in the house had worsened..
Despite the crisis delivered to my door needing me to rush off to deal with it-- I would stop to get my purse, run a hand over my hair and put on some lip stick before leaving....
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john
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Aah!
John, it is not a good idea to state things as fact unless you have documentation to back it up. - Fairhavenguy.
You just used supposition for 80% of your argument. Read back -
"and probably," "I do not know," "but I think," "most likely," "this a guess," "I'll try to research it."
The point is not you Fairhavenguy - the point is you're all widely missing the point.
I think I'm too young for this room.
John, it is not a good idea to state things as fact unless you have documentation to back it up. - Fairhavenguy.
You just used supposition for 80% of your argument. Read back -
"and probably," "I do not know," "but I think," "most likely," "this a guess," "I'll try to research it."
The point is not you Fairhavenguy - the point is you're all widely missing the point.
I think I'm too young for this room.
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Harry
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Dr. Dolan both lived and had his office at 200 South Main, Fall River.
http://www.rootsweb.com/~ussnei/FRDirect91-3.htm
The good Mayor, who was also a physician, worked out of his home. Ditto for Dr.'s Kelly, Bowen and Chagnon.
Was there such a thing as a doctor's office away from their home in 1892?
http://www.rootsweb.com/~ussnei/FRDirect91-3.htm
The good Mayor, who was also a physician, worked out of his home. Ditto for Dr.'s Kelly, Bowen and Chagnon.
Was there such a thing as a doctor's office away from their home in 1892?
I know I ask perfection of a quite imperfect world
And fool enough to think that's what I'll find
And fool enough to think that's what I'll find
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FairhavenGuy
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My point, John, is that "Because that's where all of the county offices were" is WRONG!
ALL the offices of Bristol County WERE NOT in New Bedford.
You are stating that the medical examiner's office was in New Bedford. We need to know your source for this information. Otherwise, yes, perhaps you belong in another room.
ALL the offices of Bristol County WERE NOT in New Bedford.
You are stating that the medical examiner's office was in New Bedford. We need to know your source for this information. Otherwise, yes, perhaps you belong in another room.
I've met Kat and Harry and Stef, oh my!
(And Diana, Richard, nbcatlover, Doug Parkhurst and Marilou, Shelley, "Cemetery" Jeff, Nadzieja, kfactor, Barbara, JoAnne, Michael, Katrina and my 255 character limit is up.)
(And Diana, Richard, nbcatlover, Doug Parkhurst and Marilou, Shelley, "Cemetery" Jeff, Nadzieja, kfactor, Barbara, JoAnne, Michael, Katrina and my 255 character limit is up.)
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Kat
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"Why did Mrs. Kelly leave shortly before dinner time?"--john
--Preliminary, Mrs. Dr. Kelley, 209+
Q. Did you speak to him?
A. No Sir. I looked up to speak, but he did not see me.
Q. What time was that?
A. I think about 27 or 28 minutes to eleven.
Q. How do you fix the time, Mrs. Kelley?
A. I was due at the dentist’s at half past nine, and I looked at
the clock, and I saw I was about an hour late, before I started.
--Dinner time was usually 12 o'clock. 10:32 or 10:33, or even 10:40 is not dinner time, it's more like midmorning.
["Why if Bridget was to go for a Doctor, didn't she go to Dr. Kelly's house after finding Dr. Bowen not at home?"]--john
--optional: can probably be answered (KK).
In answer to the next question, there is an *Interview* existing which states that Dr. Kelly was out of town during the 4th of August. If this is so, it's possible that Mary Doolan imparted this knowledge to Bridget in their chat over the fence. (However, Mrs. Kelly's daughter was not yet born by the 4th of August, 1892, I don't think. I recall Edisto pointing this out to us).
Rebello, Leonard, Lizzie Borden Past & Present, 1999
Page 390
"The Last but One. - Or, Hot Afternoon There Have Been in Fall River. - An August Day on Second Street," (newspaper and date unknown)
"Mrs. Philomena (Kelly) Hart, the daughter of Dr. and Mrs. Kelly, wrote an article about her mother's meeting with Edmund Lester Pearson and her recollections of August 4, 1892. The meeting took place at Joyeuse Garde's yard under a pear tree. Others in attendance were a driver of a buggy that went down Second Street, a newspaperman who reported on the trial and another who had a grandfather who figured prominently [in the Borden case].
The Kellys were married in 1891 and lived at 96 Second Street in a small yellow cottage.
Dr. Kelly was out of town attending a Medical Society meeting. Mrs. Kelly recalled August 4th as 'a very hot day... much hotter than any day you remember. We don't seem to have Augusts like that anymore. Even the straw hats on the horses had a boiled and droop look.' Mary Doolan, the servant, 'was a good hard-working girl, even if she did like to stop for a gam now and again with Bridget [Sullivan] next door.' ...' When she returned from her appointment, she saw a crowd in front of the Borden home and Mary Doolan told Mrs. Kelly what had happened at the Borden home. 'All afternoon and that long heavy night my mother and Mary Doolan sat behind drawn blinds with doors barricaded. With such evil forces abroad, no one was safe. Poor Miss Lizzie; their tender hearts ached for her.'
....At the close of the meeting, Mr. Pearson said, 'And now, I've had this good talk with you. And you [Mrs. Kelly] were the last person to see Andrew Borden alive!' Mrs. Kelly replied, ' "The last but one, said my mother firmly." ' "
"Sources
Fenner, Henry M., History of Fall River, New York: F. T. Smiley Publishing Company, 1926, 156, 232, 233.
Martins, Michael and Dennis Binette, The Commonwealth of Massachusetts vs. Lizzie A. Borden: The Knowlton Papers, 1892-1893, Fall River, MA: Fall River Historical Society, 1994, 444-445.
Preliminary Hearing: 208-212.
Trial: 211-219.
__,'Lizzie Borden Took An Axe,' New York Times Magazine, July 26, 1992: 1."
My finger hurts!
--Preliminary, Mrs. Dr. Kelley, 209+
Q. Did you speak to him?
A. No Sir. I looked up to speak, but he did not see me.
Q. What time was that?
A. I think about 27 or 28 minutes to eleven.
Q. How do you fix the time, Mrs. Kelley?
A. I was due at the dentist’s at half past nine, and I looked at
the clock, and I saw I was about an hour late, before I started.
--Dinner time was usually 12 o'clock. 10:32 or 10:33, or even 10:40 is not dinner time, it's more like midmorning.
["Why if Bridget was to go for a Doctor, didn't she go to Dr. Kelly's house after finding Dr. Bowen not at home?"]--john
--optional: can probably be answered (KK).
In answer to the next question, there is an *Interview* existing which states that Dr. Kelly was out of town during the 4th of August. If this is so, it's possible that Mary Doolan imparted this knowledge to Bridget in their chat over the fence. (However, Mrs. Kelly's daughter was not yet born by the 4th of August, 1892, I don't think. I recall Edisto pointing this out to us).
Rebello, Leonard, Lizzie Borden Past & Present, 1999
Page 390
"The Last but One. - Or, Hot Afternoon There Have Been in Fall River. - An August Day on Second Street," (newspaper and date unknown)
"Mrs. Philomena (Kelly) Hart, the daughter of Dr. and Mrs. Kelly, wrote an article about her mother's meeting with Edmund Lester Pearson and her recollections of August 4, 1892. The meeting took place at Joyeuse Garde's yard under a pear tree. Others in attendance were a driver of a buggy that went down Second Street, a newspaperman who reported on the trial and another who had a grandfather who figured prominently [in the Borden case].
The Kellys were married in 1891 and lived at 96 Second Street in a small yellow cottage.
Dr. Kelly was out of town attending a Medical Society meeting. Mrs. Kelly recalled August 4th as 'a very hot day... much hotter than any day you remember. We don't seem to have Augusts like that anymore. Even the straw hats on the horses had a boiled and droop look.' Mary Doolan, the servant, 'was a good hard-working girl, even if she did like to stop for a gam now and again with Bridget [Sullivan] next door.' ...' When she returned from her appointment, she saw a crowd in front of the Borden home and Mary Doolan told Mrs. Kelly what had happened at the Borden home. 'All afternoon and that long heavy night my mother and Mary Doolan sat behind drawn blinds with doors barricaded. With such evil forces abroad, no one was safe. Poor Miss Lizzie; their tender hearts ached for her.'
....At the close of the meeting, Mr. Pearson said, 'And now, I've had this good talk with you. And you [Mrs. Kelly] were the last person to see Andrew Borden alive!' Mrs. Kelly replied, ' "The last but one, said my mother firmly." ' "
"Sources
Fenner, Henry M., History of Fall River, New York: F. T. Smiley Publishing Company, 1926, 156, 232, 233.
Martins, Michael and Dennis Binette, The Commonwealth of Massachusetts vs. Lizzie A. Borden: The Knowlton Papers, 1892-1893, Fall River, MA: Fall River Historical Society, 1994, 444-445.
Preliminary Hearing: 208-212.
Trial: 211-219.
__,'Lizzie Borden Took An Axe,' New York Times Magazine, July 26, 1992: 1."
My finger hurts!
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Susan
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Thank you, Kat, your aching finger is appreciated! That article is another first for me, interesting stuff. But the thing that stopped me was the melodrama about Mrs. Kelly being the last one to see Andrew alive. According to Lizzie, she was the last known person to see Andrew alive, besides the killer, unless she filled both pairs of shoes that day, then it would still hold true. From Bridget's Prelim testimony, she (Bridget) may have been the last one besides the killer, unless Lizzie saw her father when she passed through the sitting room where he was sitting by the window, reading. 
“Sometimes when we are generous in small, barely detectable ways it can change someone else's life forever.”-Margaret Cho comedienne
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john
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That's interesting FairhavenGuy, because I don't see you suggesting that other people on here should be somewhere else because of unsubstantiatable information, such as that Lizzie was a lesbian - I never saw you comment about that - or that there's no logic to Uncle John's story, or that many of the things which happened that morning are beyond coincidence. Whether Dr. Dolan's office was in Taunton or Boston or Los Angeles doesn't really matter. It's unusual, unless a good reason can be found, that he would be passing by the the location of the crime of that century so soon after it happened. That's the point here. I doubt that he was much at any office anyway. He lived, according to Harry, at 200 South Main. He could have been going home for dinner at the time after the murders, noticed the agitation on 2nd street, and meandered over. Unless he did such, he was on the wrong street to get home. This is another supposition though, whiches you don't like.
I just don't like to see "coincidences" in crime stories.
We say, oh, Andrew just happened to not get in the back door, so he went around to the front. That doesn't really make sense. Why not bang on the back door. Perhaps Bridget and Lizzie were out of earshot. But there is no testimony that he banged on the back door. Why wouldn't he think that most likely someone would be in the back of the house? And then he couldn't get into the front door. Did he have his room key instead of his house keys because he was protecting his room from Uncle John getting into it? Is that why Dr. Bowen came back with house keys from the mantle instead of the room key?
We say, oh, Bridget just washed some of the windows, and let it go at that. Well, if she was slacking that day, and was asked what she had to do, why didn't she say she had things to do and not wash any windows?
We accept a bunch of stories by Lizzie as to where she was at various times, but the big question is where she was when her Father came home. Unless she had an I.Q. of about 8 there is no way she would have said she was upstairs, yet she did in her origional testimony. This leads one (me anyway) to believe, because she changed her story after thinking it over, that she really was upstairs, and I believe that it's only by her own testimony that she is placed there (except for Bridget's thinking that she might have been because of the laugh,) at the site of the first murder. Now there's only one reason that she or anyone would ever do that (place themselves in a variety of locations.) And you figure that out for me and you get five gold stars.
I just don't like to see "coincidences" in crime stories.
We say, oh, Andrew just happened to not get in the back door, so he went around to the front. That doesn't really make sense. Why not bang on the back door. Perhaps Bridget and Lizzie were out of earshot. But there is no testimony that he banged on the back door. Why wouldn't he think that most likely someone would be in the back of the house? And then he couldn't get into the front door. Did he have his room key instead of his house keys because he was protecting his room from Uncle John getting into it? Is that why Dr. Bowen came back with house keys from the mantle instead of the room key?
We say, oh, Bridget just washed some of the windows, and let it go at that. Well, if she was slacking that day, and was asked what she had to do, why didn't she say she had things to do and not wash any windows?
We accept a bunch of stories by Lizzie as to where she was at various times, but the big question is where she was when her Father came home. Unless she had an I.Q. of about 8 there is no way she would have said she was upstairs, yet she did in her origional testimony. This leads one (me anyway) to believe, because she changed her story after thinking it over, that she really was upstairs, and I believe that it's only by her own testimony that she is placed there (except for Bridget's thinking that she might have been because of the laugh,) at the site of the first murder. Now there's only one reason that she or anyone would ever do that (place themselves in a variety of locations.) And you figure that out for me and you get five gold stars.
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john
- Posts: 734
- Joined: Wed Feb 16, 2005 12:50 am
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Ok lets accept your stuff Kat on just one point, yet see how reliable it is.
Posted: Thu Apr 21, 2005 12:06 am Post subject:
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"Why did Mrs. Kelly leave shortly before dinner time?"--john
--Preliminary, Mrs. Dr. Kelley, 209+
Q. Did you speak to him?
A. No Sir. I looked up to speak, but he did not see me.
Q. What time was that?
A. I think about 27 or 28 minutes to eleven.
Q. How do you fix the time, Mrs. Kelley?
A. I was due at the dentist’s at half past nine, and I looked at
the clock, and I saw I was about an hour late, before I started. - Kat
It makes some kind of sense so far, but why would she think she could be an hour late for the dentist and still get in, especially when it was so close now to dinner. If her husband was a Doctor, why wouldn't she use the phone they probably had, and the phone the dentist probably had to call the dentist. Why was she an hour late in the first place?
Did she want to see something that was going to happen at the Borden house? She left at almost exactly the time Andrew came home, and watched him.
Aristotle said, in just, that if you "try to make sense out of something that doesn't make sense, it doesn't make sense."
Posted: Thu Apr 21, 2005 12:06 am Post subject:
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"Why did Mrs. Kelly leave shortly before dinner time?"--john
--Preliminary, Mrs. Dr. Kelley, 209+
Q. Did you speak to him?
A. No Sir. I looked up to speak, but he did not see me.
Q. What time was that?
A. I think about 27 or 28 minutes to eleven.
Q. How do you fix the time, Mrs. Kelley?
A. I was due at the dentist’s at half past nine, and I looked at
the clock, and I saw I was about an hour late, before I started. - Kat
It makes some kind of sense so far, but why would she think she could be an hour late for the dentist and still get in, especially when it was so close now to dinner. If her husband was a Doctor, why wouldn't she use the phone they probably had, and the phone the dentist probably had to call the dentist. Why was she an hour late in the first place?
Did she want to see something that was going to happen at the Borden house? She left at almost exactly the time Andrew came home, and watched him.
Aristotle said, in just, that if you "try to make sense out of something that doesn't make sense, it doesn't make sense."