Taken to the grave?

sguthmann · Post by **sguthmann** » Tue Apr 19, 2005 8:19 pm

In the years following the trial, did anyone closely connected with the case ever give an official interview, write a memoir, leave a diary or letters, or leave any other documentation with any additional tidbits for future research? I'm thinking of people outside Lizzie and Emma, of course, but yet closely connected with the events of that day - like Alice, or Bridget, or the Dr. or examiners, or police, lawyers, etc. Did any such person leave any impressions, memories, theories, confessions, fears, or observations either as written documents or as statements made to others?

Fargo · Post by **Fargo** » Tue Apr 19, 2005 10:33 pm

It has been written that Bridget, while she was ill and thought that she was dying, was going to confess something to a friend of hers. Bridget recovered and never told the friend what she was going to reveal.

I heard somewhere that years later, on her deathbed that Bridget confessed to her sister that she had changed her testimony to protect lizzie. What the specifics of that was I don't know, if in fact it happened at all. It could have been something as simple as saying that there was no animosity between lizzie and her stepmother. That way it would look as if lizzie had less of a motive to commit the crime.

It would be interesting to see if bridgets relatives know anything about it.

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Tue Apr 19, 2005 10:38 pm

I have always found it very odd that the only inquest testimony to go missing was Bridget's, who was the only other person at the house during the murders.

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Tue Apr 19, 2005 11:16 pm

Allen @ Tue Apr 19, 2005 10:38 pm wrote:I have always found it very odd that the only inquest testimony to go missing was Bridget's, who was the only other person at the house during the murders.

Actually Melissa, Lizzie's inquest testimony is also missing. What was used was the verbatim transcript as published in the New Bedford Evening Standard.

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Tue Apr 19, 2005 11:37 pm

It is still odd that there is absolutely no copy of Bridget's testimony. There are no surviving copies of it anywhere. How can something like that just disappear completely?

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Tue Apr 19, 2005 11:50 pm

It is a puzzler indeed. We had an interesting discussion on this very topic a while back. See this thread:

viewtopic.php?t=275

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Wed Apr 20, 2005 12:54 am

Here's some more info on Bridget's missing inquest testimony. This is from the Knowlton papers:

HK172, Letter, typewritten, page 176, from Knowlton to A-G Pillsbury

"New Bedford, Mass., May 5, 1893.

Hon. A. E. Pillsbury:
Dear Sir:-
Jennings wants to have his experts see the skulls, and I told him I supposed there would be no objection, and have so written to Dolan.

They also want Bridget Sullivan's testimony at the inquest. We declined to give it to them before the indictment, but I see no objection to giving it to them now. It is almost identical with her story as told before Judge Blaisdell, and will do us no harm. What do you think?
Yours truly
H. M. Knowlton"

Note how Knowlton says Bridget's Inquest testimony was almost identical to her Preliminary hearing testimony.

This was written before Adams made his formal request for a copy of Bridgets testimony.

Then, later that same month, neither Pillsbury or Knowlton seem to be able to locate a copy. Strange indeed.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Wed Apr 20, 2005 1:09 am

sguthmann @ Tue Apr 19, 2005 7:19 pm wrote:In the years following the trial, did anyone closely connected with the case ever give an official interview, write a memoir, leave a diary or letters, or leave any other documentation with any additional tidbits for future research? I'm thinking of people outside Lizzie and Emma, of course, but yet closely connected with the events of that day - like Alice, or Bridget, or the Dr. or examiners, or police, lawyers, etc. Did any such person leave any impressions, memories, theories, confessions, fears, or observations either as written documents or as statements made to others?

"The Borden Murder Mystery - 1946 (pdf 1MB)
By Arthur Sherman Phillips. This book is an abstract from The Phillips History of Fall River (Fall River, MA: Dover Press, 1944-6, 3 vols.). Phillips was a junior member of Lizzie Borden's defense team who always maintained a belief in her innocence."

Download at:
http://lizzieandrewborden.com/Resources ... dBooks.htm

Susan · Post by **Susan** » Wed Apr 20, 2005 3:57 am

I tried searching, but, can't recall their names, there was a husband and wife, possibly some relatives of the Bordens? Anyway, the husband had a theory that Emma murdered the elder Bordens. Does that ring a bell with anyone, I know its so little to go on.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Wed Apr 20, 2005 4:18 am

Col. Howe, husband of Grace Hartley Howe.
It's in Rebello.

john · Post by **john** » Wed Apr 20, 2005 4:55 am

How about creating scenarios of how Lizzie could have done it, or Emma, or Bridget just to show that it was impossible for any of them to do it?
Just Emma for starters - driving 45 miles through places she's lived for all of her life without being seen, etc.

john · Post by **john** » Wed Apr 20, 2005 5:01 am

Re: Bridget's deathbed "confession," just about every treasure hunting story has one of those.

Fargo · Post by **Fargo** » Wed Apr 20, 2005 7:23 am

Bridget's intended confession is mentioned on pages #144 and #337 of Yesterday in Old Fall River.

If Bridget was going to confess something in 1942 when she thought she was dying but she wasn't, then it would be reasonable to assume that she did confess something in 1948 when thought she was dying and she was.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Wed Apr 20, 2005 6:49 pm

Is Fairhaven 45 miles away from Fall River by *driving*?

diana · Post by **diana** » Wed Apr 20, 2005 7:19 pm

Going back to Bridget's inquest testimony, here’s another indication that it was available at trial. It is Robinson's rebuttal to Bridget denying she ever said Lizzie was crying that Thursday morning.

"MISS ANNIE M. WHITE, Recalled.

. . . Q. Did you attend the inquest at Fall River in this case that is now pending?
A. I did.

Q. And you there took the testimony as given by the different witnesses.
A. Yes, sir.

Q. You were present when Bridget Sullivan testified?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. And took her testimony?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. I am permitted to show you the printed copy so that you need not trouble yourself about your notes. Mr. Knowlton kindly consents to that. I will refer to page 19. I want particularly to ascertain whether Bridget testified that Miss Lizzie was crying at the time she stood at the screen door? I ask you to read what is marked between the pencil lines. The questions were put by Mr. Knowlton.

A. (Witness reading):

"Q. When she hollered, she said what?
A. She says, 'Maggie, come down!' I knew of course something was the matter by the holler she put on her. I says, 'What is the matter?'
Q. What was said then?
A. She says, 'come down quick. Father is dead.' She was leaning against the screen door.
Q. Was the screen door open then?
A. I don't know, I could not say. She was leaning against the inside door that locks, the large door.
Q. Not the screen door but the regular door?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. How did she seem?
A. She seemed to be excited more than I ever saw her.
Q. Was she crying?
A. Yes, she was crying." (Trial, 1593+)

So Bridget's inquest testimony must have disappeared again after the trial. Odd when the correspondence between Pillsbury, Knowlton, and Adams indicate it went missing before the trial. Lost and found and lost again?

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Wed Apr 20, 2005 7:25 pm

Very good. If Robinson was reading to Miss White from his copy of Bridget's inquest testimony, then that's probably why people are so *sure* the Robinson file contains such a thing even to this day.

john · Post by **john** » Wed Apr 20, 2005 7:32 pm

Hmm, I seem to remember Lizzie saying "Father has been hurt." Good find Diana.
It's fun congratulating people on destroying my sumptions!

doug65oh · Post by **doug65oh** » Wed Apr 20, 2005 7:43 pm

Is Fairhaven 45 miles away from Fall River by *driving*?

According to Yahoo Maps, which I just consulted a moment ago, the driving distance between Fall River and Fairhaven is roughly one third of that, at just over fifteen miles.

Approximate travel time from center of to center of (driving) is twenty-two minutes.

Starting in FALL RIVER, MA on S MAIN ST - go < 0.1 mi
2. Turn on SULLIVAN DR - go 0.1 mi
3. SULLIVAN DR becomes 4TH ST - go 0.1 mi
4. Turn on PLEASANT ST - go 0.3 mi
5. Turn on PLYMOUTH AVE - go 0.2 mi
6. Bear on - go 0.2 mi
7. Merge onto I-195 EAST - go 12.1 mi
8. Take exit #15 onto RT-18 SOUTH toward DOWNTOWN - go 1.0 mi
9. Take the US-6 exit toward FAIRHAVEN - go 1.2 mi
10. Turn on MIDDLE ST - go 0.4 mi
11. Turn on WASHINGTON ST - go < 0.1 mi
12. Arrive at the center of FAIRHAVEN, MA
Distance: 15.6 miles Approximate Travel Time: 22 mins

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Wed Apr 20, 2005 8:22 pm

Thanks DougOh.
I suppose without an interstate it might stretch out to 20 miles?
These directions are pretty complicated! Around here you just get on I-4 or I-75.

"Just Emma for starters - driving 45 miles through places she's lived for all of her life without being seen, etc."--john

Are you exaggerating, john? I mean, unintentionally- getting carried away so to speak? If so, can you use some qualifiers, so people don't have to ask such simple questions back?

FairhavenGuy · Post by **FairhavenGuy** » Wed Apr 20, 2005 8:48 pm

Fairhaven to Fall River is about 15 miles either by Interstate 195 or by Route 6, which follows the older route.

I-195 and Rte. 6 are roughly parallel to one another and there's not a huge amount of difference in the mileage.

I would guess there would be nothing particularly recognizable about Emma riding in a carriage on most of that route. I've lived in Fairhaven since birth, except for a very brief time away, and I could easily get from one end of town to the other without calling much attention to myself, particlarly if I were in a rented vehicle. (I would guess that today almost all of the people I recognize driving by me are recognized by the particular vehicle they're driving.)

I don't particularly think Emma did this crime, but John seems to be working with a lot of misinformation and unwarranted assumptions.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Wed Apr 20, 2005 9:20 pm

Thanks for the info on what mileage might be back when, Chris.
I was hoping to hear your data on interstate vs. county roads.
You and DougOh have been helpful.
Now if I could just remember that!
Here we say how far by how long it takes...

john · Post by **john** » Wed Apr 20, 2005 9:21 pm

Certainly I'm supposing, because if Emma did it, no one was riding with her in the carriage and said, "oh, lets stop here and kill your Father and stepmother," and if Lizzie did it, no one was there we guess, to hand her a hatchet, and say, "here, honey, blast them."
The only witnesses are the ones we have. I think given the nature of the crimes though that if someone had seen Emma driving to Fall River that morning or the night before, they would have remembered that just as they seemed to remember a man leaning (?) on the Borden fence the morning of the murders, and the carriage with nice horses there that morning. If the only knowledge that you are going to accept, Kat, is testimony, as you said, then you are looking at this crime from extreme tunnel vision. I love life, but I'm not going to joke anymore. RIP Lizzie, Emma, Andrew, Abbey, Uncle John, Mrs. Kelley, Liberache, oops I'm joking, no seriously, Bridget, etc.

FairhavenGuy · Post by **FairhavenGuy** » Wed Apr 20, 2005 10:00 pm

john @ Wed Apr 20, 2005 9:21 pm wrote:if someone had seen Emma driving to Fall River that morning or the night before, they would have remembered that just as they seemed to remember a man leaning (?) on the Borden fence the morning of the murders, and the carriage with nice horses there that morning.

So who's to say that wasn't Emma's driver or her carriage?

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Thu Apr 21, 2005 12:13 am

Or Emma dressed as a man, 5'2" according to Handy in the newspaper.

Susan · Post by **Susan** » Thu Apr 21, 2005 3:47 am

Kat @ Wed Apr 20, 2005 1:18 am wrote:Col. Howe, husband of Grace Hartley Howe.
It's in Rebello.

Thanks, Kat, thats the one I was thinking of! Emma, hmmmm........

Emma Borden took an axe
but 'twas Lizzie who paid the tax
for when she saw what her sister done
she sent Miss Emma on the run.

Bob Gutowski · Post by **Bob Gutowski** » Thu Apr 21, 2005 12:26 pm

It's more fun to go to Google Maps and click on satellite view - you can make out The House and the printing press surrounding it!

john · Post by **john** » Fri Apr 22, 2005 2:31 am

45 miles would be approximately there and back.

john · Post by **john** » Fri Apr 22, 2005 2:41 am

I guess no one has said it wasn't Fairhavenguy.
I think Emma had more disassociation with her folks than Lizzie, but it still seems pretty unlikely.
If Emma would have done it, the town probably wouldn't have ostracized Lizzie.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Fri Apr 22, 2005 4:14 am

I think it sounds like there and back and there again, according to the mileage.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sat Apr 23, 2005 2:23 am

Wasn't the whole big to-do about Minnie Green and the Bridget Sullivan connection found to be not proved, or even made up after all

john · Post by **john** » Sat Apr 23, 2005 3:00 am

so sorry, yes it would be approximately 15 miles city limit to city limit from fall river to fairhaven and perhaps 2 miles city driving in fall river and one mile in fairhaven. so there are 36 miles of driving without recognition and what does that matter anyway since she wasn't recognized? if she was recognized she could have started in new zeland and be seen within in ten feet. my point was that it was unlikely that emma did it in part because of the driving, which, as usual, you make a big deal out of five more miles.

john · Post by **john** » Sat Apr 23, 2005 3:14 am

there is a term called "semantics," which means proper to usage. there is also a term i made up, "semantiks," which means not proper to usage.
there is a term called "definiction," which means precicement in english or diction functioning, and there is a term i made up, "definiktion," which means........................

FairhavenGuy · Post by **FairhavenGuy** » Sat Apr 23, 2005 9:57 am

Just so we're clear, the Yahoo driving directions that were given were "center to center," which is generally measured from city hall to city hall.

The Borden house is within about two blocks of Fall River City Hall, not the two miles that John suggests. Likewise the Green Street home where Emma stayed in Fairhaven is about one and a half blocks from Fairhaven Town Hall.

The "center to center" driving distance, 15.6 miles according to Yahoo, would be almost exactly the "19 Green St., Fairhaven to 92 Second St., Fall River," driving distance.

Oh, and the question of what difference 5 or 6 miles makes must be answered in terms of 1892 travel in a horse drawn carriage. Five miles could add half an hour or more to travel time depending on the condition of the roads.

theebmonique · Post by **theebmonique** » Sat Apr 23, 2005 11:23 am

Chris, I do love having you here to give us the angle that you have on some of the 'geographical-related' questions. You have a very unique perspective because you live in THE area, and because of your knowledge of 'periodism'. Thank you.

Tracy...

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sat Apr 23, 2005 7:01 pm

If the only knowledge that you are going to accept, Kat, is testimony, as you said, then you are looking at this crime from extreme tunnel vision. I love life, but I'm not going to joke anymore. RIP Lizzie, Emma, Andrew, Abbey, Uncle John, Mrs. Kelley, Liberache, oops I'm joking, no seriously, Bridget, etc.

--john

Do you really know what I have said in 20,000 posting?
I don't have tunnel-vision- I personally accept theories based on facts -Theories have to fit within the factual parameters of the case, or else we wind up out on a branch with Arnold Brown.
That's a reason to discuss things- to learn from one another.
When someone says this to me about "testimony", I take it they haven't read the testimony and don't feel like it.

I don't know why it seems you are taking little jibes at me, when I do take you seriously.

john · Post by **john** » Sat Apr 23, 2005 9:44 pm

Yes you don't have "tunnel-vision," as Dr. Bowen would say. You are a beautiful flower, Kat, and doing a most wonderfull and amazing job!

john · Post by **john** » Sat Apr 23, 2005 9:56 pm

Sorry if it sounded like I was taking jibes at you. From your S.Q. I do like you very much. You're just usually the one that's there although I think I praise your amazing expertise as much as I criticize, and most probably much moreso positively.
I do have certain opinions though, and believe that with "Lizzie," the more you know about it the less likely you are going to be to figure it out. The most amazing thing about "Lizzie," is that someone really could have done it in the first place. How becomes secondary. But there was a "how" too.
I try to figure it out, but here there is an awful lot of extraneous information.

john · Post by **john** » Sat Apr 23, 2005 10:05 pm

Another thing that bugs me is why call someone Chris if his name is Fairhavenguy? That is dericive suppogivistation to the rest of the group who know him as Fairhavenman.
And he seems to be a very nice guy so no prob with him.

Audrey · Post by **Audrey** » Sat Apr 23, 2005 10:08 pm

John... Will you do me a favor?

STOP being intentionally abrasive and foolish.

I do not believe you are really as odd as you act.. And if you are any kind of gentleman you will respect the ladies here and act accordingly.

Pour moi, s'il vous plait???

john · Post by **john** » Sat Apr 23, 2005 10:16 pm

Is this room really a cosmic joke? I mean whether Emma drived 700 miles or seven feet, she wasn't recognized, so what does five, or 50 or 500 miles matter on the journey she probably didn't have.
If Emma would have done it, the crime would have been well known by the time she got back to wherever, and you tell me that someone wouldn't have squalked?

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sat Apr 23, 2005 10:33 pm

Susan brought up the theory which Col. Howe suggested as the answer to the puzzle.
He was a really important and famous man in his day and related by marriage to the case- his wife was Grace Hartley Howe.
He thought Emma did it.
You'd suppose, or anyone might suppose, that living in the day-and-age, and married into the case, that he might have something interesing to say on the subject?

Anyway, I don't agree with the statement:

the more you know about it the less likely you are going to be to figure it out.

--john

I think it's a cop-out. There has to be a foundation in the source material first, or someone, anyone, will be just spinning their wheels here. And if the stuff was read long ago and it's not conveniently close at hand right now, then find it and re-read it and then post.
Yes, the little things are important: the details.

FairhavenGuy · Post by **FairhavenGuy** » Sat Apr 23, 2005 10:44 pm

john @ Wed Apr 20, 2005 4:55 am wrote:How about creating scenarios of how Lizzie could have done it, or Emma, or Bridget just to show that it was impossible for any of them to do it?
Just Emma for starters - driving 45 miles through places she's lived for all of her life without being seen, etc.

None of us made this proposal, John. You did, as quoted above.

We were merely advising you that the trip, if she had made it, would have been 31.2 miles round trip. If you are seriously creating a scenario, you shouldn't have an extra 13.8 miles added in, because it dramatically changes the amount of time her trip would take. In this case, where folks have created minute-by-minute timelines, casually adding more than 13 miles to a horse and carriage ride is a rather large error to make.

People call me Chris, because that's my name and many of us here have become friends. You'll notice we call theebmonique her real name, Tracy, which is especially good for Kat and I, who type with just two fingers. Typing Tracy saves us considerable time.

theebmonique · Post by **theebmonique** » Sun Apr 24, 2005 2:28 am

John...PLEASE take Audrey's advice.

No one on this board should have to put up with 'abrasive foolishness' from anyone else. We are all here to discuss this very interesting case. At times, opinions will differ...but never at the cost of intentionally offending fellow members.

I hope I am wrong, but I am almost sure you will never stop being the way you are. Whatever it is you are trying to prove to us...either do it and get it over with, or move on.

Everyone here has been as nice as we can be, but you keep making it more and more difficult. We can only throw a drowning man a life ring so many times when he keeps throwing it back. Eventually we will get tired of trying and will just let him float away.

So...please play nice...or say 'Bon Voyage'.

Tracy...

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sun Apr 24, 2005 3:43 am

I don't consider the input abrasive, tho I have less reason to than any other. It's tedious a bit tho, trying to explain errors in fact which probably will effect the outcome or solution.
I like a creative edge, I really do- I'd just like some discipline displayed. But that's just me.

john · Post by **john** » Sun Apr 24, 2005 8:37 am

No one's forcing anyone to read anything that I post - so don't read it. But don't whine and rag.

Fargo · Post by **Fargo** » Sun Apr 24, 2005 8:55 am

I remember reading something else about Bridget, but unfortunately I can't remember what source it was from now. I didn't exactly understand it. It was something about when she passed away and it said something like "dig my grave wide and deep, I'll keep my secret while I sleep". I didn't understand if it was supposed to be something that Bridget had written or what.

Mabe someone else might know what I am talking about. I am going to keep looking for it in my books.

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Sun Apr 24, 2005 9:16 am

Fargo @ Sun Apr 24, 2005 8:55 am wrote:I remember reading something else about Bridget, but unfortunately I can't remember what source it was from now. I didn't exactly understand it. It was something about when she passed away and it said something like "dig my grave wide and deep, I'll keep my secret while I sleep". I didn't understand if it was supposed to be something that Bridget had written or what.

Mabe someone else might know what I am talking about. I am going to keep looking for it in my books.

Those lines are cited in Rebello, page 66:

"The Strange Story of Bridget Sullivan: Dig My Grave Both Wide and Deep, I'll Keep My Secret as I Sleep," Anaconda Leader, September 12, 1975."

This Bridget, in Anaconda, Montana, died in 1948. I have not read the article but assume it is some sort of rehash of the case.

Fargo · Post by **Fargo** » Sun Apr 24, 2005 10:06 am

Thanks Harry, you saved me some work.

The item I read about Bridget confessing to her sister, that she changed her testimony, came from another website on the case, but it never said where the information came from.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sun Apr 24, 2005 5:50 pm

Wow, you guys. I don't remember that! Thanks!

Fargo · Post by **Fargo** » Thu Apr 28, 2005 9:12 am

I read on a website called the straight dope about bridget supposedly confessing to her sister that she changed her testimony to protect lizzie.

The author of the article john corrado seems to be refering to Ed Radin's book "Lizzie borden the untold story". Does anyone know if there is anything in that book about Bridget confessing.

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Taken to the grave?

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