Lizzie versus Lizbeth

Audrey · Post by **Audrey** » Sun May 29, 2005 11:14 pm

What changed?

Lizbeth was nice to animals, she gave money to needy students, bought tickets to plays and concerts when she knew people wanted to go and couldn't. She did a great deal of this anonymously...

Lizzie, on the other hand-- was not as nice.

I was thinking... Apart form having money and being in a nicer house and having all she wanted-- the other main difference was that (eventually) Emma wasn't the major force in her life...

Any other ideas?

Liz Crouthers · Post by **Liz Crouthers** » Sun May 29, 2005 11:28 pm

I think It's just that maybe Lizzie loved life more after she realized her values

theebmonique · Post by **theebmonique** » Sun May 29, 2005 11:47 pm

Could Lizzie have been under her own self-imposed stress anxiety disorder ? What I mean by this is was was Emma SUCH a major factor in her life, and was she SO focused on getting to "THE HILL" that she had blinders on to most other things going on in her life ? Then, once she got to Maplecroft, even under the conditions by which she arrived, she was able to truly be who she was, "Lizbeth, the Kind and Gentle"...

Tracy...

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Mon May 30, 2005 1:21 am

Have you ever noticed how even some of the most hardened criminals claim to have "found" God sometime after they go to prison? How they start reading the Bible and quoting scriptures? Some become model prisoners within the walls, though they may have been deviant monsters who committed heinous crimes outside the walls. My theory is, they believe very much in Heaven and Hell, and they are trying very hard not to go to the former by "atoning" for their sins. I think this is part of why Lizzie changed so much. The other part of it being that after being stifled in that environment with Abby and Andrew for so long she was relieved and thankful to be rid of her parents, and have her hands on all that money.It was like a great weight was lifted off of her shoulders. She was free to do as she pleased, whenever she pleased. Lizzie had what Lizzie had always wanted. Who wouldn't be happy and content? But this is just my opinion.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Mon May 30, 2005 1:36 am

Well, we do hear of a charitable Lizzie when she joined the church. And then later as Lizbeth we hear she did charitable works under cover so-to-speak, anonymously. In this regard I was under the impression that she still kept that sort of activity up, even tho she fell out somehow over the rental space of the AJBorden building with the WCTU.

However, after Emma left, Lizbeth no longer lived with any family members and maybe it was the family members who rubbed her wrong?

stuartwsa · Post by **stuartwsa** » Mon May 30, 2005 10:00 am

I think that with money in hand, she finally acquired the social veneer that she always desired for herself. That does not discount all of her good deeds, though. But by then it was too late to be accepted by Fall River Society. It's a bit difficult to sweep a double homicide, and some shoplifting under the rug, no matter how much money you have! If she were alive today, it would be a different story. She'd have her own reality series!

Liz Crouthers · Post by **Liz Crouthers** » Mon May 30, 2005 1:50 pm

Ha she sure would

Audrey · Post by **Audrey** » Mon May 30, 2005 2:05 pm

Can a cold blooded murderer be, essentially-- a good person?

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Mon May 30, 2005 5:00 pm

No, I don't think so.
We can look at people we know of who are famous and killed and probably will never kill again. Admittedly they are male, but still...
We can think of Robert Blake and OJSimpson. These people are weird!.

theebmonique · Post by **theebmonique** » Mon May 30, 2005 6:15 pm

But what about an abused woman who has taken some guy's crap and has finally HAD ENOUGH of his beating and tormenting and shoots him ? I know violence isn't the answer, but if she is just doing what she needs to do to protect her children/herself...could that be considered normal for a mother ?

Tracy...

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Mon May 30, 2005 7:35 pm

I have never been put in that position so I don't know for sure. But since it's asked, I would say that there is always a choice. The choice is to walk away. Hide, run, whatever- it can be done.
The problem is when the abused retaliates with violence which to me makes them as bad as their oppressor.
Sure, we can say that the oppressor taught them a violent response, but it boils down to responsibility for one's own actions.

stuartwsa · Post by **stuartwsa** » Mon May 30, 2005 10:15 pm

I also think that Lizzie became the kind of person she always wanted to be, i.e: a kind benefactress. Of course, there were other parts of her personality that would have definitely been in conflict with this image. She was probably rather blind to it, but I think that anyone in her later life that did not view her in that same way that she saw herself, was shown the gate. Including Emma.

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Mon May 30, 2005 11:08 pm

Part of an article I wrote for the initial issue of the Hatchet (Feb/Mar 2004) concerned an item I found on the Borden girls making a donation:

"The following item appeared in the history of the Fall River Y.M.C.A. for the year 1900:

'In April, affluent businessmen and families of Fall River were solicited for donations to the building expansion project. Mrs. R. S. Remington, family of the originator, contributed $10,000.00. The Misses Emma and Lizzie Borden contributed $2,000.00 each.'"

What is interesting here is the year - 1900. This is 8 years after the tragedy. The question that occurs to me is why would Lizzie, who was supposedly shunned by Fall River society, make a contribution?

Was this an attempt to restore her public reputation? Something that Emma coaxed her into?

In any case, a "Lizbeth" type thing to do.

Audrey · Post by **Audrey** » Mon May 30, 2005 11:25 pm

Was it (just) Lincoln who said Lizzie helped her groups make ends meet with her somewhat limited income she lived on before Andrew died?

I think she bitchily alluded that Lizzie was only welcome and elected into her treasurer offices in order that she would throw in enough to balance the monthly budgets....

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Mon May 30, 2005 11:51 pm

I think Mrs. Holmes or Mrs. Brigham, her friends, one of them anyway, before the trial, said in the newspapers that Lizzie would take up the shortfall in her chairitable work.
I guess it means Lizzie took up the slack when money was over-budget.
But it was still Andrew's money. It always was Andrew's money.
I think that snippet is in Rebello, if you can find it?

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Tue May 31, 2005 12:00 am

stuartwsa @ Mon May 30, 2005 9:15 pm wrote:I also think that Lizzie became the kind of person she always wanted to be, i.e: a kind benefactress. Of course, there were other parts of her personality that would have definitely been in conflict with this image. She was probably rather blind to it, but I think that anyone in her later life that did not view her in that same way that she saw herself, was shown the gate. Including Emma.

Yes I kind of see it this way too.
Families put family members into roles and they are destined to play these forever. The mold can never be broken. Once Lizzie returned from Europe, she may have begun her transformation into Lizbeth. But her family would never see this, or allow it. They knew her too well.
If she negates her family, she can then re-invent herself.
I know this sounds simplistic, but I think Lizzie was basically simple- like the 16 year-old who never grew up. Maybe her family kept her down. She didn't have a lot of choices but she could have been more constructive about it, rather than de-structive.

Liz Crouthers · Post by **Liz Crouthers** » Tue May 31, 2005 11:45 pm

Yeah I guess thats true some families put you into those roles and you don't realize it. Others just live to keep you down

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Mon Jun 06, 2005 4:24 pm

I know this was discussed in one of the other threads recently, but I cannot find it for the life of me. Lizzie states that she stayed behind and did not go to Marion when the other ladies went because she was to take the roll call for the Christian Endeavor society. It's also been stated, though I'm not sure it was in the thread I was looking for, that most of the members of the C.E. Society were out of town at the time. I am assuming that even the members who did attend were not out of town due to the Christian Endeavor Convention that was held in New York in July of that year. So why were most of the members out of town? Why if most of the members were out of town would she still have to take the roll call? I've been looking for this thread. I am overlooking it somehow because I cannot find it. So I thought since there was mention of Lizzie's activities in the charities and churches in this thread I would post my question here

.

Inquest Testimony Lizzie Borden page 56:

Q. Why did you not go to Marion with the party that went?
A. Because they went sooner than I could, and I was going Monday.

Q. Why did they go sooner than you could; what was there to keep you?
A. I had taken the secretaryship and treasurer of our C. E. society, had the charge, and the roll call was the first Sunday in August, and I felt I must be there and attend to that part of the business.

diana · Post by **diana** » Mon Jun 06, 2005 5:23 pm

You're right, Melissa -- we did have a discussion on this recently. Is this the thread you're looking for?

viewtopic.php?p=14490#14490

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Mon Jun 06, 2005 6:01 pm

Yes, diana that is the thread I was looking for. Thank you!