Being There

[jimha]

I've read a number of postings and you all have interesting theories. But, to get a better understanding of what happened on that fateful day in 1892, I would highly recommend visiting Fall River and touring the Borden House. When all we know about the case is what we read, we have a tendancy to magnify and dramatioze the facts of the story. It's amazing to see, for example, how close the sofa is to the front stairs...that Andrew's head was right around the corner from the dining room...and so on. I don't know the new owners...and I don't get a dime for promoting a visit to the house. I just figured that you would appreciate knowing that there's a lot to learn about the case by visiting the murder site.

[Lenore]

I visited the house a few years’ ago and it is what I would call cramped. This makes one wonder how two people could be murdered in a house so small and other people in the house not know about it. However, it was August and very hot the day of the murders so one would assume most of the windows were open. The house is very close to what, even at that time, was a busy street and all the outside noises would be heard inside the house. This would include the sounds of wagons and carriages, street vendors, people talking, etc. When one is surrounded by constant noise, it is easy to “shut out” sounds or fail to notice what, in a quiet environment, would draw a person’s attention. In such a situation, I can understand how Lizzie and Bridget--assuming either was in the house at the time–could have failed to hear someone attacking Andrew Borden while he was lying on the sofa. Abby, of course, would presumably have fallen, and being a large woman, the fall would probably have shaken the small house so, apparently, Lizzie and Bridget were both outside when she was murdered.

[theebmonique]

jimha,

I am not sure if you have had a chance to look through many of the postings, or the archives yet, but there are MANY of us who have been to the house...and more than once, with even more trips in the works for this summer ! Several of our members are citizens of the Fall River area, and some even work at the house.

I would highly recommend that you, and anyone else who hasn't already, get a subcription to THE HATCHET. It's the online (and printable) journal of Lizzie Borden studies published bi-monthly by Stefani and her amazing crew. Several of our members here are regular contributors. I would not be without a subscription.

Also, the lizzieandrewborden.com website is a 'veritable cornucopia' of nearly everything you could want to know as you begin study this case. Many of the Primary Source documents, books, etc., are there and available to download for free...thanks again to Stef and her wonderful staff...Kat and Harry in particular for their creative and organizational talents.

The number one book I would recommend you have is Lizzie Borden Past & Present, by Leonard Rebello (also a Fall River native). This book is considered by most of us I believe, to be the BIBLE of references for studying the Borden case.

http://www.hatchetonline.com/HatchetOnline/index.htm

http://lizzieandrewborden.com/


Tracy...

[Allen]

I have been to the house twice and spent the night both times in the John Morse Guest room. I agree that you really get a better understanding of the crime from actually being there, and knowing the lay out of the house first hand really brings things to life for you. I had a whole knew view on things after visiting there that first time.

[theebmonique]

I spent 2 of my nights in the Guest Room, and 1 night in Lizzie's room. Being there did help put things into a better perspective no doubt. Those stairs are skinny and steep !

For instance, I think if you were going to "notice" a body where Abby's laid, you would more likely notice it on your way UP the stairs, rather than on your way DOWN the stairs and that would probably depend on your height. I think when you are on your way up, you are more confident about where you are stepping, and therefore would be more likely to take a glance under the bed as you peer through the railing around the landing. Whereas the steepnees and width of the stairs, in my case anyway, made me want to pay more attention to where I was stepping on my way down...rather than trying to peek under the bed. Now, stopping along the way is always an option, but I am mostly trying to describe how I think it is when you are continually moving on those stairs.


Tracy...

[Allen]

[quote="theebmonique @ Tue Jun 07, 2005 3:50 pm"]

For instance, I think if you were going to "notice" a body where Abby's laid, you would more likely notice it on your way UP the stairs, rather than on your way DOWN the stairs and that would probably depend on your height. I think when you are on your way up, you are more confident about where you are stepping, and therefore would be more likely to take a glance under the bed as you peer through the railing around the landing. quote]

I have often wondered how tall Mrs. Churchill and Bridget both were. Because I could not see under the bed from any point on the stairs on the way up unless I stood on my tips toes to really look. But I'm 5'4" . I wonder how tall they were? Did anyone else have this problem?

[theebmonique]

I am 5'1'...and on my way up the stairs, I could see under the guest room bed if I turned my head left just before the stairs turned.


Tracy...

[beckygoddess]

jimha - Could you be the Jim Harrington who produced the 1999 video "92 Second Street: The House Where Lizzie Killed!", Jim Harrington Productions, Pittsburgh, PA? If you are, I know you to be a person who did extensive research on the house at the time the video was made.

Now, if I've blown your cover and you wish to remain anonymous, you could of course deny you are he. :)

[beckygoddess]

BTW, allow me to comment that the above video is now an important record as it allows us to study the interior of each room prior to any changes from the McGinn-to-Woods transition. Plus it was only a year after the original opening of the B&B was it not?

And if it IS you, let me say you have a beautiful voice (as narrator). It was well done, I thought, and I have a copy in my collection.

[theebmonique]

Mr. Harrington,

Is there a way for a person to purchase a copy of your movie ?


Tracy...

[Kat]

I don't know why it was posted that the windows were open, when Bridget closed them to wash them?
Also, saying that Lizzie and Bridget were apparently outside when Abby was murdered doesn't even square with Lizzie's own story.

[jimha]

Hi Beckygoddess...yes, it is me...you've blown my cover...and thank you for the kind words. I loved producing that little video. I wish I had had more time. Actually, I shot it in August of 2000...that's right August. The day was much like that fateful day back in 1892. I've always had an incredible interest in that case. When I was a small boy, I went to St. Mary's school...just around the corner from the Borden House. My dad told me the story and I've been interested ever since. My grandfather went to St. Marys, too...back in the 1880's...and he knew Andrew Borden. He said that Mr. Borden used to give him (and other neighborhood kids) fruit from the trees in his back yard....I think he called them 'droplings'. (It was the stuff that fell off the tree and would have gone bad anyway). My grandfather was also a policeman on the Fall River police force and, although he didn't join the force until the early 1900's, he knew a lot of older officers who worked the Borden case.
My late Dad was an attorney in Fall River and he always found the case fascinating, too. He used to try cases in New Bedford...in the same court room Lizzie was tried in...and when I would go with him, he would give me a tour and explain how things were handled back then.
As for the availability of the video, I can only make DVD copies now...but they're actually better ( the quality doesn't diminish over time). If someone wants to buy a copy they can contact me through this website. If the webmaster doesn't mind, I'll give you my email address and we can go from there. They're $19.95 plus $5. for shipping and handling. You can pay by check, money order or PayPal. If you pay by check, the delivery time is a bit longer because I have to wait until the check clears.
Thanks again for the nice words...maybe someday I'll get the back to produce another movie about the story...after all...it was one of America's first mass media cases.

[Lenore]

When washing windows, one does not close every window in the house, just two or three at the time, or those in a single room. Once those are washed, they are reopened and two or three more are closed for washing. In such heat, it would have been impossible to remain in the house with all the windows closed.

Yes, Lizzie said she was in the house when Abby was murdered but since she went in and out so many times that morning and, obviously, did not know exactly when Abby was murdered, how could she be sure she was in the house when the murder took place? Furthermore, had she been inside such a small house, she would certainly have heard something–the sounds of footsteps, Abby’s fall–something. We all know many of Lizzie’s answers concerning her whereabouts that morning were vague.

[prussicacid]

I've noticed that various posters allude to the ( unproven and speculative ) deafening crash that "shook the house" ( slight exaggeration, surely) as abby hit the floor after the first of many blows.

Has it not occurred to anyone that Abby may have already been on her hands and knees dusting under the bed when Lizzie (sorry, her assailant ) struck? thus the attack being a complete surprise and therefore no scream was heard . Abby's initial position would certainly make it easier to strike the first downward blow.

Just a thought , were there any blood splatterings found on the ceilings of the murder rooms?

[Allen]

When washing windows, one does not close every window in the house, just two or three at the time, or those in a single room. Once those are washed, they are reopened and two or three more are closed for washing. In such heat, it would have been impossible to remain in the house with all the windows closed

You do this when you are washing the windows from the outside?

[Allen]

My grandfather went to St. Marys, too...back in the 1880's...and he knew Andrew Borden. He said that Mr. Borden used to give him (and other neighborhood kids) fruit from the trees in his back yard....I think he called them 'droplings'. (It was the stuff that fell off the tree and would have gone bad anyway).

This is a nice bit of information about Andrew jimha, thanks. I like hearing little stories such as this. Sorry for posting twice but I didn't think of this until after posting the first time. I think my brain is getting fried by all this heat.

[beckygoddess]

Ah ha! I thought it was you, Jim. Thank you for sharing that information about your family and association with Fall River, St. Mary's, etc.

Have you considered doing a sequel, Part Two to your video now that the Leary Press is gone? I'm sure the new owner and manager would love it! And they could sell copies in the gift shop for you. You should contact them. phone 508-675-7333, fax 508-673-1545.

I've read somewhere that Lizzie allowed some boys from St. Mary's school to pick up the pears on the ground, but never Andrew. But I can almost hear him say: "Only the rotten ones now. Don't take any that haven't rottened. I might sell those!"

Do think about a follow up video. You could include narration about many of the ghost stories which the manager and staff there would share. Ghost related stories and merchandise sell well there. Probably a good 60% of their bookings are those interested in the paranormal, occult, and locations of hauntings.

Have you done any other video or DVD productions on any other subjects?

[Lenore]

Allen, windows are closed from the inside but when washing windows–on the outside--on a very hot day, any half-way intelligent person would close a few windows (from the inside), go back outside and wash those, then come inside again, open the formerly closed windows, and close another set of windows. However, Bridget testified she closed the windows before going outside to wash them and she may have done this because the back screen door would have let in a little air. (But this still doesn’t explain how Lizzie was able to sit in an airless kitchen waiting for her flats to heat on a hot stove.)

Additionally, on that particular morning, Bridget would have been washing only the downstairs windows. If you have visited the house, you know the downstairs windows are very high off the ground so Bridget would have had to use a “pole” to clean them. Bridget estimated the window-washing took approximately 30 minutes and I do not beleive she could have washed that many windows, upstairs and down, in a half-hour.

Also, Bridget could not possibly have closed all the upstairs windows because (1) Mr. and Mrs. Borden’s room and Abby’s dressing room were locked; and (2) she never entered Emma’s or Lizzie’s rooms. Therefore, the upstairs windows would have remained open. Lizzie later testified she instructed Bridget to close the shutters of the parlor windows when she finished washing them to keep out the heat (she would have closed the shutters from the outside). Later, when Andrew returned home, Lizzie testified she asked him, “Do you want the window (singular) that way?” There were two windows in the sitting room, therefore, Lizzie’s question implies one was open and the other closed.

The whole window-washing scenario is confusing. Uncle John Morse claimed he heard Mrs. Borden instruct Bridget to wash the windows; but Bridget said she did not receive such instructions until after Morse left the house. Like everything else concerning the case, there are a lot of discrepancies.

[theebmonique]

Mr. Harrington...I sent you a PM.


Tracy...

[Angel]

I saw in the archive bit (that someone included lately) that a relative who actually knew Andrew said he was known to be an "SOB". That certainly makes sense to me with all the things I read about him. It probably was difficult to live with someone like that. I get the impression that Lizzie had a temper and either got angry or sullen when things didn't go her way. Put that together with a resentful sister, a hated step mother, a curmudgeon for a father, possible sexual disfunction and/or incest with the father and/or uncle, and the scenes that must have happened with the clash of personalities, and I can see why a woman who spent 34 years with that atmosphere could have lost it. She probably was such a victim that she was desperate to get away from the situation and felt it was a matter of survival to do what she did. That's why she didn't exhibit any guilt over the years, but actually felt freed for the first time in her life. I really think that's what happened. Bridget probably felt guilty for not talking to authorities about the horrific scenes she may have seen, and probably figured out what happened, even though she wasn't involved directly. Maybe that's what she was going to say at her deathbed. And that's why she had to get out of there because she was terrified about what Lizzie might do next in the house. They probably all (Dr. Bowen, some friends, relatives, etc. had this suspicion but were torn in their loyalties, so they kept their knowledge of the turmoil in the house a secret. Maybe Dr. Bowen was acting weird because he may have secretly thought the girls were victims too, so he understood why Lizzie could have lost it. But he was ambivalent about what he should do. Maybe Morse sat under the tree before going into the house after the murders because he realized what probably happened to Lizzie and he either felt ambivalent too, or he was feeling guilty for having misused her or taken the parent's side. He may have been bracing himself for what he knew he was going to find in there or for the possibility that secrets about him could come out too.

[bsr88]

If any of you are in town (Fall River) this weekend, drop in and see me! I'll b the Evening manager Fri night for the private tour, and I'll be doing tours with Ed on Saturday.

I haven't been up to the house in a very long time for me because I have aquired a new disease that put a stop to my events for a while. BUT I'm alive and well, and can't wait to see the property! Has anyone else been up there lately?

Ciao!

Ben

[Allen]

Additionally, on that particular morning, Bridget would have been washing only the downstairs windows. If you have visited the house, you know the downstairs windows are very high off the ground so Bridget would have had to use a “pole” to clean them. Bridget estimated the window-washing took approximately 30 minutes and I do not beleive she could have washed that many windows, upstairs and down, in a half-hour.

Bridget washed only the downstairs windows, which you stated. So I'm not quite sure what you meant by the part in the bold, which I have added. She testified to only washing the downstairs windows so I do not really dispute that. I don't think Bridget did anything in the way of cleaning on the second floor. I get the impression the family took care of those rooms. I do not know how you wash windows, but even on a hot day I would think it would be less time consuming to close all of the windows and wash them, than it would be to close two or three, go outside and wash and rinse them, come back inside and close those windows, open three more, go back outside and wash them, etc etc...all the while moving a step ladder, pail, brush and pole along with you. Not to mention running to the barn for water. Also, Bridget was under the assumption that Lizzie had hooked the screen door. Which would be another reason why all of the windows would be closed before she went outside to wash them.

[Lenore]

I said "upstairs and down" because of a recent (last few years) newspaper article I read which said, "Bridget used a pole to wash the upstairs windows," or words ot that effect. I should have realized everyone here knew she only washed the downstairs windows. Sorry.

[Allen]

I said "upstairs and down" because of a recent (last few years) newspaper article I read which said, "Bridget used a pole to wash the upstairs windows," or words ot that effect. I should have realized everyone here knew she only washed the downstairs windows. Sorry.

I was just a little confused. I ask questions to make sure I understand what you are saying correctly. I don't want to misinterpret anything, so if I'm not sure I ask. BTW welcome to the forums! It is good to see another new member. I hope to see more interesting posts from you!

[Kat]

Hello, Jim!
We seem to have misplaced you! We were awaiting sales information at this other thread where we met earlier:
viewtopic.php?p=10776&highlight=#10776

Yes, people are wanting your info as to how to get a copy.
Thanks

[Kat]

Ben, what happened to you? Are you alright?

[theebmonique]

Thanks for posting that Kat..I had nearly forgotten we had already asked about purchasing the video(DVD). It sounds like it is definitely something to add to my collection.


Tracy...

[Kat]

When washing windows, one does not close every window in the house, just two or three at the time, or those in a single room. Once those are washed, they are reopened and two or three more are closed for washing. In such heat, it would have been impossible to remain in the house with all the windows closed.

Yes, Lizzie said she was in the house when Abby was murdered but since she went in and out so many times that morning and, obviously, did not know exactly when Abby was murdered, how could she be sure she was in the house when the murder took place? Furthermore, had she been inside such a small house, she would certainly have heard something–the sounds of footsteps, Abby’s fall–something. We all know many of Lizzie’s answers concerning her whereabouts that morning were vague.

'

I don't think it was as hot as you think it was. There has been research done to prove otherwise. Also, when Bridget first started washing windows it would have been even cooler than Masterton's explanation of 78 degrees (when Andrew was killed).

http://lizzieandrewborden.com/Resources ... BQAuth.htm

"Masterton, William L. 'Weather We Do: Some Like It Hot!'" Lizzie Borden Quarterly IV.1 (January 1997): 7-8.

"After quoting various authors on the Lizzie Borden case that all claim that the day of the murders was a very hot one, Masterton uses three sources (The Fall River Daily Herald, The Fall River Evening News, and the United States Signal Service) to prove that the temperature was not over 78 degrees when Andrew was murdered."
.....

When it is put forth that Lizzie *went in and out so many times* I would ask you where you read this, because if you are basing this on an author, the author is wrong. In fact, I don't think I've ever read anywhere that Lizzie claimed, or was described as, going in and out so many times. She went outside in the yard OR to the barn, according to her, after she left her father in the sitting room and was gone between 20 and 30 minutes. Otherwise, she does not claim to be out, nor does Bridget see her out at all any other time.

I also have heard here that the house was *small*- I don't think it's so small- Anyone know the square footage?