LIZZIE LETTERS

Sally · Post by **Sally** » Sun Jun 19, 2005 2:54 pm

Me either...

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Sun Jun 19, 2005 3:40 pm

Me.

msmith625 · Post by **msmith625** » Sun Jun 19, 2005 6:04 pm

Me.

It was I that Edisto was referring to in a previous post on this thread (waves to Edisto). The increasing antics of Phaye and others on that board were what caused me to leave five years ago. The whole thing became far too closed-minded, juvenile, and personal-attack-based. I guess when you're 15 years old in a forum of adults and suddenly realize that your maturity level has long since exceeded everyone else's, there's no point in sticking around hoping for any more reasonable adult conversation.

I'm sorry to see that she's still causing trouble, but unfortunately I can't say that I'm at all surprised. I'm glad that she hasn't succeeded in wreaking the havoc here that she has in so many other places. I never went back to that forum and know that it's no longer around, though I don't know when or why it shut down, whether for those reasons or others. As for me, I'm new to this forum and haven't heard much Lizzie news in at least a year or two, though I've always kept my ears and eyes open for new books, developments, et cetera. I'm not sure how often I'll post, I'm happy just to read the insights of others and throw in my two cents when I feel I have something of importance to add, but in a way it's good to be back.

Nancie · Post by **Nancie** » Sun Jun 19, 2005 9:13 pm

she's baaaaak

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Mon Jun 20, 2005 2:36 am

I don't know what that means, Nancie.
Do you remember this member from darkrose?

I remember Edisto mentioned the young person several times regretting her leaving. But I'm afraid I personally don't know you, MsSmith. I think you were just before my time.

That board went down due to several reasons. The main one was that their server was changing and they were trying to archive and switch over. They didn't succeeed in either for very long. Their main interests were the dogs and candles. Stef and I have saved quite a few thread topics from over there ourselves! There were "multiples" there as well.
It's nice to meet you. You write very well.

john · Post by **john** » Mon Jun 20, 2005 7:03 am

Hi MsSmith!

Angel · Post by **Angel** » Mon Jun 20, 2005 8:30 am

Good God-- My real name is MSmith. I hope, if she IS back, that she didn't use my name to start this nonsense again.

Edisto · Post by **Edisto** » Mon Jun 20, 2005 11:49 am

This is getting confusing! Welcome to the "new" poster. I do hope you're the same person I mentioned, because I always thought you were wise beyond your years and added a lot to our study of the Borden case. I began to get really upset with "Becky" or whomever when I noticed you had vanished from the DarkRose board. In addition to the problems Kat cited, that board vanished after allowing F*** to return and take a major role in running it. Other posters fled. She started her own message board, and it wound up looking like your average day in Baghdad. Blood all over the walls. What Sally said earlier was especially insightful. F*** has to be the center of attention - or else! Come to think of it, aren't we giving her exactly what she wants by continuing to discuss her? Onward and upward!

theebmonique · Post by **theebmonique** » Mon Jun 20, 2005 12:22 pm

I agree with Edisto. Onward and upward.

There's no point in giving F what she wants in the way we are going about things. We cannot be driving people away in our fits of paranoia, no matter how justified our paranoia is.

I do hope MsSmith625 decides to return. New blood is a good thing, even though she is not really 'new' at this...she is really just returning from a long absence.

Let's all take a deep breath....innnnnnnnn...now ouuuuuuut. We are here to discuss the case of Lizzie Borden, etc. If 'something' else comes up...we can deal with it then.

Tracy...

joe · Post by **joe** » Mon Jun 20, 2005 3:08 pm

Adminlizzieborden @ Fri Jun 17, 2005 12:03 am wrote:I apologize to the members here who have been duped by the following identities----it was often only much later that I was able to prove the hoax and at that time banned her identities. You might remember these names: mesadave, Miller, hhtiles, donj. Now, beckygoddess.

Thanks, Stef. Don't need her back.
Joe

john · Post by **john** » Mon Jun 20, 2005 3:12 pm

Hey, I liked the way she could be in England and New England within minutes, and I sent her a picture of my spats and she said Camelia liked them.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Mon Jun 20, 2005 6:30 pm

I think everyone here is a prince or a princess until proven otherwise.

But sometimes I am more sensitive to comments than at other times, just like anyone.

Please (royal) people- let's keep plugging away!

Liz Crouthers · Post by **Liz Crouthers** » Mon Jun 20, 2005 9:20 pm

Well I'm not royal but my mother is related to the Queen of England shince she does family tree for a hobby.

theebmonique · Post by **theebmonique** » Tue Jun 21, 2005 12:15 pm

msmith625,
I apologize for not correctly spelling your name earlier. I has mssmith625...not msmith625 as it should be. My apologies.

Tracy...

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Tue Jun 21, 2005 9:29 pm

So did anyone else have a hard time deciphering the handwriting of our Lizzie?
It took 3 of us and my end to figure it out.
Have you all *got it*?

Susan · Post by **Susan** » Tue Jun 21, 2005 9:41 pm

Yes, it took me awhile to decipher Lizzie's handwriting also! Some words were just so much scribbling, but, I did finally figure it out.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Tue Jun 21, 2005 9:45 pm

Very good. Does anyone need a translation?

Haulover · Post by **Haulover** » Tue Jun 21, 2005 9:54 pm

i could not see a whole letter. and i did not get all of what i could see. you've got all of it in english?

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Tue Jun 21, 2005 11:29 pm

Page 1

My dear Manda
You do not
know how it warmed
my heart to have
you come and see
me last week.
And Hilma(?) was so
kind to come and
bring me some of

Page 2

the garden.
Please tell her
I had them for din-
ner Saturday and
enjoyed them so much.
But more than
all it pleases me
to have your(?) girls
remember me and
come and see me
When ever you(?)
can find time I

Page 3

wish you would come
up before long. I
want to see you a
bout something.
I am getting on ___
ly both the girls are
doing very well but
no one knows how
I miss my Hannah.
And no one can or
will miss her all
our lives as you and

Page 4

I will.
I cannot see why
God could not have
spared her to us.
We wanted her so
and her life was
just thrown away.
Best wishes to you
and Hilma.
Your friend
L. A. Borden
Maplecroft - Aug. 8,1908

--I asked Harry to decode it. He did most of it- I added about 9 1/2 words is all. He's good at it.

theebmonique · Post by **theebmonique** » Wed Jun 22, 2005 12:07 am

THANK YOU KAT & HARRY !!!

Tracy...

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Wed Jun 22, 2005 1:44 am

Didn't (in ye olde days) a girl "throw herself away" on a man?
(A no good man, I guess?)

Haulover · Post by **Haulover** » Wed Jun 22, 2005 8:55 am

thank you both. i was able to decipher the bird letter to the neighbor--but not this one.

i wonder what the vegetable was. does anyone know exactly what happened to Hannah?

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Wed Jun 22, 2005 7:58 pm

FairhavenGuy @ Thu Jun 16, 2005 8:42 pm wrote:For those of you who might not be familiar with it, the "Gateway, 1997" business at the top of these pages refers to "Gateway to Cape Cod," an annual tourists guide published each summer by Hathaway Publishing Corp. of Somerset, MA, which owns four weekly newspapers in the area.

I edited Gateway myself for several years when I worked for Hathaway Publishing in the 1980s. (A couple of my brief articles on Lizzie and the FRHS are noted in Rebello by their titles only--my byline didn't appear on them.)

After I left, Linda Andrade Roderiques, another Hathaway employee who had written some Gateway stories for me, became editor of the publication. I'm quite certain Linda was editing when these letters were published. She included a lot of Lizzie material in Gateway and also wrote some articles related to Lizzie in The Spectator, the weekly newspaper in Somerset that's owned by Hathaway Publishing.

Just a bit of extra background here, that's all.

Since you were correct in who provided/ published the letter, Christopher, did you receive your prize? The promised copy of the Helen Leighton letter?

FairhavenGuy · Post by **FairhavenGuy** » Wed Jun 22, 2005 9:28 pm

Nope.

Nor can I figure out why F blanked out Linda's name on the Gateway article, with an excuse about not wanting people to bother her or somesuch. . .

Linda has been a newspaper writer for more than 20 years now and her name appears on hundreds of published articles. I don't think it would be any kind of invasion of privacy if somebody tried to contact a newspaper reporter would it?

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Thu Jun 23, 2005 2:16 am

I don't know, but thanks for answering.
I think you deserve your prize tho.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Thu Jun 23, 2005 4:52 am

Eugene, here is info on Hannah from Rebello:

Rebello
288

"Hannah B. Nelson

Lizzie wrote a letter (June 30, 1908) to Rhode Island Hospital seeking the status of Miss Nelson's condition. Several other letters were written by Lizzie to friends expressing her concern for Hannah. Miss Nelson died July 3, 1908. 'A Letter from Lizzie Borden,' Gateway, Summer / 1997: 10-14."

"Miss Hannah B. Nelson was a housekeeper and resided at 306 French Street with Lizzie from 1903-1908. Miss Nelson was born in Sweden, August 24, 1870. She was the daughter of Phi and Philimena Nelson. She died at Rhode Island Hospital in Providence, Rhode Island, on July 3, 1908. She was thirty-seven years old. Funeral services were held from G. M. Wilbur's (undertaker) in Warren, Rhode Island. Miss Nelson was buried in Little Neck Burial Grounds in Riverside, Rhode Island."

"Sources
'Obituary: Hannah B. Nelson,' Providence Journal, July 6, 1908: 3.

City Directories, Fall River, 1900-1908

Death Record for Hannah B. Nelson
Little Neck Burial Grounds, Riverside, Rhode Island

Rhode Island Deaths Index, Rhode Island Historical Society, Providence Rhode Island."

weber · Post by **weber** » Thu Jun 23, 2005 8:53 am

If Lizzie cared for her so much, do you think that she went to her funeral?

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Thu Jun 23, 2005 9:49 am

That's a great question Weber. Makes you wonder how Lizzie handled events of this kind in general.

I checked the map and Riverside, RI was not all that far from Swansea.

This was 16 years after the crime and Pearson's books hadn't yet been written so the Borden case may have been in a period of remission as far as knowledge of it was concerned. That is unless the local papers specifically called attention to Hannah being the servant of the notorious Lizzie Borden.

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Thu Jun 23, 2005 3:10 pm

There are two things I have been wondering about lately, but I haven't found the right thread to post them in yet. I am not really sure if this is the right thread either, but one of the things I was curious about were the pictures which Lizzie brought back from her tour of Europe. They are mentioned in a few of the newspapers describing the house and it's furnishings. I was wondering what kind of pictures they had been. Were these pictures actually taken by Lizzie herself? If they were we can assume she owned a camera of some kind. Was she in any of them? And most importantly, what became of them? The bold lettering was added by me.

Rebello page 109:

" A Search of the Premises," Fall River Evening News, Monday, August 8, 1892:1.

The next room entered was Miss Lizzie's chamber, which is in the middle of the house, with windows on the south side. The walls were covered with rich, dark paper, which was relieved by handsome red portieres at the doors. The windows were draped with taste and the furniture was neatly arranged. There was a narrow bed for one person, which was covered with a spread and pillows of spotless white. Not a wrinkle was in the coverlet, and it seemed, like everything else in the apartment, to reflect the precise and trim character of its occupant. Easy chairs and rockers around, a few choice engravings on the wall, a well -stocked bookcase and photographs secured in foreign travel were visible. The dressing case, commode, and closet were in turn examined by the officers.Every dress Lizzie possessed, every skirt, every wrapper, and piece of underclothing was rigorously scrutinized. On one of the skirts a blood staind was found. It was the only discovery in the room.

page 110:

" A New York Woman Describes the House," Fall River Daily Herald, August 24, 1892:4.

Lizzie Borden's room is as dainty and charming a place as any girl need ask for. The tiny bed had a pale blue counterpane, the work of the woman who occupied it. Many books and pictures were in the room, some of them evidently gathered in that foreign journey of which we have heard so much.

augusta · Post by **augusta** » Thu Jun 23, 2005 6:28 pm

Of course she would blot out the author's name. She didn't want anyone to know where it came from. She wanted to be THE ONE with the info and hold it over our heads.

I'll bet she was very surprised someone on this Forum knew where it came from.

I think you did get a prize, Fairhaven Guy. We think she is gone.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Thu Jun 23, 2005 7:21 pm

Rebello, pg. 11, on what Lizzie brought back from her European Tour:

"With a party of friends, Miss Borden made a tour of Europe in 1890. She remained on the continent for three months, under the chaperonage of Miss Cox of Taunton [Massachusetts]. They visited London, traversed Scotland, saw Paris and spent some time in Rome. Lizzie brought home a large collection of photographs of buildings and copies of works of the great masters. She was particularly found (fond) of Raphel's 'Sistene Madona' and brought home several large copies of it. She had pictures of St. Peter's at Rome and other great European cathedrals.' Boston Evening Recorder, June 5, 1893: 4."

-It always seemed to me that these pictures were copies of the artwork she brought back. Would "pictures of St. Peter's" mean actual photographs or drawing/renderings?

Susan · Post by **Susan** » Thu Jun 23, 2005 10:37 pm

Heres a pic of Raphael's Sistine Madonna that Lizzie was so fond of:

From what I could find, during Lizzie's day Cabinet photos and Cartes de Visite were popular. Besides portraits, there are many examples out there where the subject matter is landscapes and important buildings.

Cartes de visite were popular from the 1850s until around 1900. They were photos measuring about 3.5"x2.25" mounted on trade cards measuring about 4" x 2.5".
The photographer's name and address usually appeared on the back of the card.

And there were also postcards with photos.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Thu Jun 23, 2005 11:28 pm

Oh that's interesting info Susan- thanks!
Postcards huh?

That's cool!

I was finally looking at that site which had the uploaded pictures of the Lizzie letter and whoever deciphered it, I'm convinced got one part wrong- and it changes how one would look at Lizbeth as an employer so it's significant.
It's always good to get several people to check odd handwriting and get a consensus on what it says- like we did. So I would say forget that site's translation of the two words and probably go with ours here.