Andrews lock

Jimmy S. Windeskog · Post by **Jimmy S. Windeskog** » Mon Jul 04, 2005 8:52 am

Was the lock, or what ever it really was, Andrew took home rigth before the murder of him, ever found?

Liz Crouthers · Post by **Liz Crouthers** » Mon Jul 04, 2005 12:54 pm

Not that I have ever known or read.

Good ?

Edisto · Post by **Edisto** » Mon Jul 04, 2005 1:11 pm

Joseph Shortsleeves, a carpenter who was renovating a South Main Street store belonging to Andrew Borden, testified at Lizzie's trial that Andrew Borden had visited the store between 10:30 and 10:45 on the morning of August 4. Borden had approached the store from the north, entered the front door, walked to the back, and picked up an old, badly broken lock that had come from the store's front door. Borden put the lock down, went upstairs, walked around there, came back down, picked up the lock again, and went out. Shortsleeves testified that Andrew Borden said nothing to him before leaving, but that he partly crossed the street, then turned around and returned to the store. Shortsleeves then said, "Good morning," Borden returned his greeting, and they conversed for a few minutes.

James Mather, who was working with Shortsleeves that morning, testified that he saw Andrew Borden enter the store twice on the morning of August 4. It was on the second visit that he saw Borden pick up a lock and exit the store again. According to Mather, the visits occurred about 10:40 a. m. by the city hall clock. Note that the stories of the two workmen differ slightly as to when Andrew Borden picked up the lock.

Mrs. Caroline Kelly, the Bordens' next-door neighbor to the south, left her house about 10:32 by her clock (which was often wrong). She turned north, and as she passed the Borden house, she saw Andrew Borden come from the back of his house and approach the front door. She observed that he had a small white parcel in his hand. (From Mrs. Kelly's trial testimony.)

Bridget Sullivan (trial testimony) heard Andrew Borden trying to open the front door. She unlocked it and let him in. She testified that he was carrying a small white parcel, "like a paper or a book." Lizzie had testified at the inquest that when Andrew returned from downstreet, she asked him if he had any mail. He responded, "None for you." Lizzie said Andrew had a letter in his hand and that she supposed it was for him.

I can find no further record of the broken lock or the small white package. Some people seem to believe Andrew obtained paper (perhaps from the post office) and wrapped the lock before bringing it home, converting it into the small white package seen by Mrs. Kelly and Bridget. Because of the location of the store being renovated, which was quite near the Borden house, he would have had to backtrack some distance to the post office to get paper there. That seems unlikely to me, especially since he wasn't feeling well.

Apparently neither the police nor the prosecutor thought the broken lock was important to the case. Nobody seemed to search for it or ask about its whereabouts. It apparently wasn't among the contents of Andrew's pockets when they were inventoried after his death. (It might have made a good fishing sinker, though!)

Jimmy S. Windeskog · Post by **Jimmy S. Windeskog** » Mon Jul 04, 2005 5:24 pm

Thanks, that was just what i neeed.
Iam finishing my Caroline Kelly on Lizzie (almost anyway), so I have do dubbelcheck some facts with you experts here so i dont will get anything wrong in the last version!

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Mon Jul 04, 2005 7:47 pm

It seems we run into another Lincoln-ism when the missing lock comes up. This is from chapter 2 of her book "A Private Disgrace" (page 126 in my paperback version):

"In connection with all this paper-burning, it is well to mention here that the broken lock that Andrew had picked up from Mr. Clegg's floor and dropped in his pocket was found on the mantel. It had been rolled in an unaddressed white mailing wrapper like those that lay in a stack, the top few addressed to Andrew, on a small table in the sitting room."

Amazing, he said sarcasticly, that no one else has ever written of its finding.

Edisto · Post by **Edisto** » Wed Jul 06, 2005 2:48 pm

Thanks, Harry. I had forgotten about that lock reference in Lincoln. I wonder how Vicky knew that? Probably the same way she knew how close Maplecroft was to chez Lincoln.

Jimmy S. Windeskog · Post by **Jimmy S. Windeskog** » Wed Jul 06, 2005 3:08 pm

Not to forget her witness that saw the front door been opened and closed the morning of the 4 aug. Her witness alone apparently.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Wed Jul 06, 2005 3:43 pm

Oh that's right! That ties in with Lizzie saying a man came that morning.
Was that supposedly Leontine Lincoln coming with a potential suitor for one of the girls? Is that in Lincoln?

Haulover · Post by **Haulover** » Thu Jul 07, 2005 9:04 am

i remember searching desperately for that when i was writing the lincoln article, and tina found it and sent this:
(i was using it in the context of lincoln shamelessly dropping her own name as often as she could)
____________

I have the same copy of Lincoln as you & I think what you were looking for is on pg 238, 2nd paragraph --

From the same source came a fascinating story about the two men in the buggy. They were Victoria Lincoln's grandfather, "then a young man," and a youth he had brought to the house at that surprising hour as a likely beau for Lizzie; when Andrew slammed the door, they laughed and drove away. My grandfather, at the time a middle-aged man with a son who had entered the family business, was never the type to play Cupid's helper--not even when young, or at nine in the evening; I have his diaries.

Jimmy S. Windeskog · Post by **Jimmy S. Windeskog** » Thu Jul 07, 2005 10:03 am

Lincon tell us "At approximatley the same time - "around nine" - another observer saw a young man go to Borden's front door and ring that bell" (sid 79).
No names, but Lincon seams to be the only one who talked with this observer. Of chorse i can be wrong, but I havent seen this information elsewere.

Jimmy S. Windeskog · Post by **Jimmy S. Windeskog** » Thu Jul 07, 2005 10:59 am

Haulover @ Thu Jul 07, 2005 2:04 pm wrote:i remember searching desperately for that when i was writing the lincoln article, and tina found it and sent this:
(i was using it in the context of lincoln shamelessly dropping her own name as often as she could)
____________

I have the same copy of Lincoln as you & I think what you were looking for is on pg 238, 2nd paragraph --

From the same source came a fascinating story about the two men in the buggy. They were Victoria Lincoln's grandfather, "then a young man," and a youth he had brought to the house at that surprising hour as a likely beau for Lizzie; when Andrew slammed the door, they laughed and drove away. My grandfather, at the time a middle-aged man with a son who had entered the family business, was never the type to play Cupid's helper--not even when young, or at nine in the evening; I have his diaries.

But that cant be about the same happening, can it or am I missing somthing ther due to my bad english?

Haulover · Post by **Haulover** » Thu Jul 07, 2005 11:10 am

I can't figure out several of lincoln's statements. she is basically teasing us about her grandfather and the other youth. i don't take it seriously.

but the question: is there an actual source for seeing someone knock on the front door and door slammed in face? was lincoln using an actual source that has some credibility? i'm not sure. (i thought this was a lincolnism.)

Jimmy S. Windeskog · Post by **Jimmy S. Windeskog** » Thu Jul 07, 2005 1:05 pm

In her book she just write "another observer". Not much to go on...

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Fri Jul 08, 2005 1:56 am

Eugene, what you "quoted" says "9 in the evening." Is that correct?

john · Post by **john** » Fri Jul 08, 2005 2:32 am

Your English seems OK Jimmy S. Windeskog. And to me the event seems very plausible. There is an ironic lack of social life for two young girls, Emma and Lizzie, as they grew up.

Haulover · Post by **Haulover** » Fri Jul 08, 2005 2:58 pm

***Eugene, what you "quoted" says "9 in the evening." Is that correct?***

yes, but i'm still not certain how she means it. i'll go read more that comes before and after.

i know that lincoln believes lizzie slammed the door in someone's face and went down for the axe. i thought she did claim there was a witness to the door slamming that morning.

so there may be a door-slamming incident on morning aug 4th that has nothing to do with the one i noted--and lincoln may have claimed someone in particular saw -- i'll look for that too.

(in what i did quote -- i have no idea what point lincoln is trying to make other than to work her name into it.)

Susan · Post by **Susan** » Fri Jul 08, 2005 9:13 pm

The way Lincoln has it written is: " , or at nine in the evening; I have his diaries." To me it simply means that her grandfather wouldn't try to play Cupid's helper at 9:00 in the morning when the door was allegedly slammed in someone's face nor at 9:00 in the evening for that matter.

Lincoln's source for this story is supposedly a "descendant" of Mrs. Kelly, it starts here on page 238:

"Apparently his fun with Mrs. Kelly hurt her and rankled; for one of her descendants told a researching acquaintance of mine that people came up from the railroad depot to set their watches by her miraculously accurate old clock.

From the same source came a fascinating story about the two men in the buggy......."

Would that make the actual witness Mrs. Kelly? Her maid? Dr. Kelly?

john · Post by **john** » Mon Jul 11, 2005 10:40 am

Free iced tea, a trip to Hawaii for three, and a duckboat at the "Could All The World Have Known This Was Coming Down" site, plus you can have your picture taken with "Toonces," The Cat Who Could Drive.

Haulover · Post by **Haulover** » Tue Jul 12, 2005 9:33 am

*** a researching acquaintance of mine ***

don't you just love that as a source?

think what an endless supply of it we have here in the archives of the forum.

Susan · Post by **Susan** » Wed Jul 13, 2005 3:16 am

Oh, I know, too funny! It would be nice if this descendant told this "researching acquaintance" of Lincoln's who the original witness was to the door slamming incident. And why was this person never called to testify about it for that matter?

john · Post by **john** » Wed Jul 20, 2005 4:13 am

My sister's name is Susan. I don't see her much, but that's her name. She was small, like our women are small, and dark and kinda feisty. She was Susan, named for her grandmother, and she's been alright.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Wed Jul 20, 2005 4:41 am

Our Susan is tall and a twin! She likes The Haunted Mansion.

john · Post by **john** » Wed Jul 20, 2005 4:57 am

Oops - still is Susan - still around I hope.

Susan · Post by **Susan** » Wed Jul 20, 2005 5:56 am

Kat @ Wed Jul 20, 2005 1:41 am wrote:Our Susan is tall and a twin! She likes The Haunted Mansion.

Amongst other things. And yes, I am still here.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Wed Jul 20, 2005 9:14 pm

Yes, amongst other things...

john · Post by **john** » Thu Jul 21, 2005 2:18 am

What other things?

john · Post by **john** » Thu Jul 21, 2005 2:20 am

Hey Susan - if you meet me in Cincinatti on Wnednesday at 2:00 PM at the Hardees near the freeway I have a message for you.

Susan · Post by **Susan** » Thu Jul 21, 2005 3:52 am

john @ Wed Jul 20, 2005 11:18 pm wrote:What other things?

Oh, there are soooo many things that I like and interest and intrigue me that I don't think I will ever encompass them all in my lifetime.