Was Lizzie Fond of Boys?

1bigsteve · Post by **1bigsteve** » Thu Sep 08, 2005 1:05 am

Edward Radin, in his book, mentioned that Lizzie took an interest in a young boy. She would stop at his school and invite him into her car, gave him presents and money. Also Lizzie enjoyed having the neighbor boys into her yard (before the murders) to help themselves to the pears. It has been years since I read the book but I got the impression that Lizzie had a fondness for boys.

Could this have been because of some desire on Lizzie's part to have kids of her own? Did she ever show any maternal feelings?

I thought it kind of nice, after all the years of hearing how "wicked" Lizzie was, that maybe Lizzie had a soft side after all.

Has anyone else heard anything about this side of Lizzie outside of Radin's book?

-1bigsteve (o:

Audrey · Post by **Audrey** » Thu Sep 08, 2005 1:30 am

I think people tend to associate people with the events of their lives that stand out from others.

I come from France-- and have triplets. I am often described as the "French woman with the triplets" and not by name-- or by what I do for a job--etc.

Lets assume Lizzie's guilt. For many, she is only a murderer. We tend to forget to look past the crime or her other reported activities. Lizzie was kind and generous to her servants-- and we have discussed if she was trying to "buy" their friendship or admiration--perhaps. Perhaps she was the type of person who was genuinly kind to those who were kind to her. Perhaps she was generous to them because she had the means to do so and was the type of person who liked to see other people happy.

Radin is filled with gentle Lizzie stories.... Perhaps they are stories.. Perhaps they have factual basis.

I do not think Lizzie was perpetually cruel. I do not think that, even if she was guilty it automatically means she was a bad person.

My problem is that I WANT Lizzie to be innocent. I do not know why I do-- I just do. Lately I have been in the guilty corner-- and I don't like it!

Lizzie was good to the people she called friend. She was good to her servants. She was generous with her money.... I do not think every one of her acts of kindness had ulterior motives. I think she must have had a kind side...

1bigsteve · Post by **1bigsteve** » Fri Sep 09, 2005 11:50 pm

I remember, when I was a kid, a man I refered to only as the "Giant" because he was over 7' tall. I never said a word to him but later I got to thinking that that guy was probably a very warm hearted guy, most super tall people are.

When I began studying the Borden case I always tried to look beneath the "Lizzie did it" attitude and see if I can find the real Lizzie who I always felt, and still do, was probably a very kind hearted person. I'm always trying to look for the good in a person.

You are right, Audrey, Radin does seem to put a polish on Lizzie. I like to think it is well deserved. When I read the account of Lizzie's interest in that boy and in the others I began to believe that maybe Lizzie did have feelings for others. Maybe she did have a desire to be a mother and have kids of her own. She didn't seem to have any interest much in girls, just boys, from what I remember of the book.

Whether Lizzie did the crimes or not, I still like to believe that there was a whole lot of good in Lizzie.

Like Anne Frank said: "... In spite of everything, I still believe that people are really good at heart."

-1bigsteve (o:

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sat Sep 10, 2005 5:47 am

In William's Casebook, in the back, Russell Lake tells stories of his boyhood living across the street from Lizbeth. She was kind to him.

stuartwsa · Post by **stuartwsa** » Sat Sep 10, 2005 9:55 am

I wonder if Lizzie tended to favor boys over girls? Many of the stories, true or not, center around boys. And, as Kat mentioned, Lizzie seemed fond of Russell Lake. Yet Victoria Lincoln met with stony silence.

Audrey · Post by **Audrey** » Sat Sep 10, 2005 9:57 am

stuartwsa @ Sat Sep 10, 2005 8:55 am wrote:I wonder if Lizzie tended to favor boys over girls? Many of the stories, true or not, center around boys. And, as Kat mentioned, Lizzie seemed fond of Russell Lake. Yet Victoria Lincoln met with stony silence.

So says Ms. Lincoln........

1bigsteve · Post by **1bigsteve** » Sat Sep 10, 2005 10:43 am

Audrey @ Sat Sep 10, 2005 5:57 am wrote:
stuartwsa @ Sat Sep 10, 2005 8:55 am wrote:I wonder if Lizzie tended to favor boys over girls? Many of the stories, true or not, center around boys. And, as Kat mentioned, Lizzie seemed fond of Russell Lake. Yet Victoria Lincoln met with stony silence.
So says Ms. Lincoln........

I wonder if Lincoln put that bit about being ignored by Lizzie in her book as supporting evidence that Lizzie was guilty. In other words bending the evidence to support a pre-conceived belief that Lizzie was guilty. Who know's, maybe Lizzie was kind to Victoria. Poor Lizzie.

By the way, Audrey, how is your ear drum doing? Has it healed up? I had a lot of ear trouble when I was a kid. They are no fun!

-1bigsteve (o:

DWilly · Post by **DWilly** » Sat Sep 10, 2005 11:20 am

stuartwsa @ Sat Sep 10, 2005 9:55 am wrote:I wonder if Lizzie tended to favor boys over girls? Many of the stories, true or not, center around boys. And, as Kat mentioned, Lizzie seemed fond of Russell Lake. Yet Victoria Lincoln met with stony silence.

I don't know how accurate this description of Lizzie is because it's rather contradictory but, on page 500 of Rebello a Mrs. Alice Dean says this about Lizzie, " She [Lizzie] was a perfect lady. She was very religious. She was wonderful to us. She recalled Lizzie as being "very mannish looking person...she always wore men's hats and shoes, totally unlike her sister, who was very ladylike..."

Now, if the part about Lizzie wearing men's hats and shoes is true then it's possible that Lizzie simply related to boys more than girls. At least on one level. As I said in another post Lizzie may have had tomboyish tendencies.

snokkums · Post by **snokkums** » Sat Sep 10, 2005 4:57 pm

I think you are right Audrey. People have a tendancy to look at something that stands out and not anything else. People forget that she did teach Sunday school and she was generous. But they only remember the murders.

Also too, I think people start talking and making up rumors that probably they wouldn't have said before the murders. You know, something like, "I \ALWAYS KNEW SHE HAD IT IN HER-- TO KILL HER PARENTS" That kind of stuff.

Elizabeth Ann · Post by **Elizabeth Ann** » Sun Sep 11, 2005 2:23 am

Audrey @ Thu Sep 08, 2005 12:30 am wrote:
Lizzie was good to the people she called friend. She was good to her servants. She was generous with her money.... I do not think every one of her acts of kindness had ulterior motives. I think she must have had a kind side...

In reading more on the case and the life of Lizzie and learning from you folks here, I keep thinking how would you live in the shadow of suspion of such a crime? Her life after the trial does not portray a heartless person to me either. I am sure that she treasured those who did befriend her and stand by her despite the suspicion of guilt that lingered. But then, did she feel by being a good person she made up for the murders...... I would like to think the later is not true.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Mon Sep 12, 2005 1:10 am

I have nothing to support this but I heard that Lizzie had an impromtu picnic party with her servants for something like a birthday party for the little daughter of one of them. I don't have the facts exactly, but I kind of confirmed the anecdote.

I'm only bringing it up because it's a little girl, and we needed a girl here, yes?.

Didn't Lizzie ask to name a baby girl as well?

Audrey · Post by **Audrey** » Mon Sep 12, 2005 10:55 am

I believe Lizzie asking someone to name their daughter a certain name came from Gramma....

DWilly · Post by **DWilly** » Mon Sep 12, 2005 12:47 pm

Kat @ Mon Sep 12, 2005 1:10 am wrote:I have nothing to support this but I heard that Lizzie had an impromtu picnic party with her servants for something like a birthday party for the little daughter of one of them. I don't have the facts exactly, but I kind of confirmed the anecdote.

I'm only bringing it up because it's a little girl, and we needed a girl here, yes?.

Didn't Lizzie ask to name a baby girl as well?

Don't know if this is the same daughter who had the birthday picnic because I don't know her age but, in her Will Lizzie left Grace L. Terry, the daughter of her chauffeur Ernest Alden Terry, $ 2,000.

Nancie · Post by **Nancie** » Mon Sep 12, 2005 8:52 pm

Kat, where did you know Lizzie had this birthday party? How could you
just say things like this without the references, anyone could do the same,
it isn't fair to true Lizzie buffs who need facts.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Tue Sep 13, 2005 3:47 am

I've mentioned it before, I think a couple of times.
When I was last in Fall River I asked about this again and was told it was true and there was a snapshot of it.
Now, since I didn't see the candid photo, I cannot prove anything, obviously.

DWilly · Post by **DWilly** » Thu Sep 29, 2005 9:56 am

I came across this on page 250, in Rebello. It is about Lizzie and a little girl named Hannah. It may give some insight to another side of Lizzie. Maybe some genuine love of children:

" Lizzie left Liverpool, England, the steamer Scythia in the autum of 1890. It was during the nine day voyage that Lizzie became friendly with Dr. and Mrs. Immanuel Pfeiffer and their daughter, Hannah. In an interview with the family, Little Hannah told the Boston Globe reporter, 'Miss Borden payed (played) with me, lots. O[h], we had such fun at peek-a-boo and everything[g].' The reporter asked Mrs. Pfeiffer,'What were your own impressions of Miss Borden?' She replied, ' I first thought her dignified and reseved, and perhaps rather cool and austere but as you know, a little child will reach a heart when no one else can...Little Hannah brought us together, and I soon found her to be the opposite from what I at first thought, while the unusual reserve gradually wore away, the dignified ladylike bearing remained, but her love of pets was fully apparent, and her thoughtful attention to my little girl relieved me of much anxiety during the voyage, and added not a little to Hannah's enjoyment.. Miss Borden has had our profound sympathy from the day of the murders. She is an honest woman, of dignity and of more than ordinary affection for all that is lovable. She has the love of this household. I shall never forget her smiles for my little girl when we separated at the landing in Boston."

Edisto · Post by **Edisto** » Thu Sep 29, 2005 3:19 pm

Surely Lizzie had a nurturing side, because there's considerable evidence that she cared for animals. She seemingly considered her dogs to be "family," as evidenced by the gravestone that was erected over their burial place. Of course, if one had asked Alexander Woollcott, he would have said that the very fact that Lizzie liked animals meant that she didn't care for people. (I disagree with him.)

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Thu Sep 29, 2005 5:54 pm

Edisto @ Thu Sep 29, 2005 2:19 pm wrote:Surely Lizzie had a nurturing side, because there's considerable evidence that she cared for animals. She seemingly considered her dogs to be "family," as evidenced by the gravestone that was erected over their burial place. Of course, if one had asked Alexander Woollcott, he would have said that the very fact that Lizzie liked animals meant that she didn't care for people. (I disagree with him.)

I don't think the fact of whether a person likes animals or not has anything at all to do with whether or not they get along with people. There have been plenty of pretty evil people through history who loved animals and had pets. Pets and people are two totally separate issues.

Audrey · Post by **Audrey** » Thu Sep 29, 2005 9:48 pm

Then you also believe that those who are cruel to animals, torture and maim them as children do not grow up with a higher tendency to commit violent crimes against people?

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Thu Sep 29, 2005 11:09 pm

Yes, those that commit violent crimes do often have a history of animal abuse. This I attribute simply to the fact that they enjoy seeing anything or anyone in pain. But not all violent criminals do. Also, not everyone who has a history of animal abuse would think of harming a hair on a human head. I've personally known cases of really horrendous animal cruelty. But these same abusers have no history of violence or cruelty towards people. As I stated before, there have been many truly evil people through out history who had beloved pets. Such as Hitler. Would anyone like to argue that maybe he wasn't such a bad guy? I don't believe there is any real correlation between how a person treats animals and how they treat other people.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blondie_(dog)

http://www.newhavenadvocate.com/gbase/F ... d=oid:5501

http://evans-experientialism.freewebspa ... doggie.htm

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Fri Sep 30, 2005 12:22 am

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Fri Sep 30, 2005 12:43 am

It's weird that in Rebello, a newspaper citation in the section DWilly quotes about the little girl reads:
"Lizzie Borden's Pet"...
(Boston Globe, June 25, 1893:20) R. 250

In old newspapers I've noticed a tendency, when referring to a child, or infant mainly, that they may name the infant or designate girl or boy and then later references are to "it."
Maybe an infant or small child was not commonly worth a lot back then, and certainly had no status. One family lost 7 children over time, and the obits became very brief and matter of fact.
Nowadays that family would be investigated for foul play!

DWilly · Post by **DWilly** » Thu Oct 27, 2005 9:54 am

In Rebello, on page 297, there's another story about Lizzie being nice to a little girl. It's under the title "The Millner" It's about George Leonard Bump who was Lizzie's millner. He use to go to Maplecroft to "obtain a fitting" from Lizzie and he took his daughter Nancy with him. Nancy recalled Lizzie, "as a nice lady who gave her chocolate."

I don't know for sure if any of these stories actually prove anything. Maybe they're true maybe they're not. As far as I know we don't have anything directly from Lizzie where she says one way or the other about her feelings in regard to children. If the stories are true it does seem she liked kids in general.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Thu Oct 27, 2005 10:05 am

I think Lizzie did like kids and animals.
But that may be because she couldn't sustain an adult relationship.
Or maybe because they didn't judge her?

Len knew the Bump daughter. He found her father's sign while antiquing! She got it back. She was so touched!

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Tue Nov 01, 2005 3:32 am

http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?news ... 9784&rfi=8

Herald News mentions the Bumps.