The Long Arm

[Kat]

"My father's murderer I will find. Tomorrow I begin my search. I shall first make an exhaustive examination of the house, such as no officer in the case has yet made, in the hope of finding a clue. Every room I propose to divide into square yards, by line and measure, and every one of these square yards I will study as if it were a problem in algebra.

I have a theory that it is impossible for any human being to enter any house, and commit in it a deed of this kind, and not leave behind traces which are the known quantities in an algebraic equation to those who can use them." *

Lizzie never said this. But then she was pretty busy being suspected and burning a dress and wondering why that should get her into trouble with Alice and the authorities. Then very soon there was the inquest and though she was called and allowed to go home- it might have occupied her mind and her nerves to the point where she could not feel anything other than nervous and harrassed- and grieving. She was taken on Thursday, a week after the crimes, and then not ever allowed home again.
BUT.
But Emma never said this either. Emma occupied that house for 10 more months and we don't hear of her looking - even in Lizzie's defence. She calls the cops to show the State there had been vandalism to a cellar window. But she could afford to have that fixed now- couldn't she?

*"The Long Arm", Mary E. Wilkins,Victorian Tales of Mystery and Detection, An Oxford Anthology, 1992 as reprint.

Originally published 1895, and written by a woman, fiction, based on the case of Lizzie Borden.

[Robert Harry]

You're on to something (as always), Kat. This business of the "silence of the 'girls'" after the murders is extremely interesting and important, I think. Contrast their silence about finding the killer(s) with that of the man who started "America's Most Wanted"--he stopped at nothing to try to find the culprit who took his son away. It seems to me that the Borden ladies' silence strongly implicates them in the crime. It's almost as though the murders themselves were the final act (in Lizzie's and Emma's minds). They had no reason to be naturally curious or determined to get to the roots of the crime. They "rested" their case by settling for the not guilty verdict. Usually, when someone discovers that member(s) of the family have been done violence, they don't want to rest quietly--they want to seek closure, or finality--there is a sense of horrible incompletion, like a dangling thread. But not so with the Bordens--no follow-through on their offer of a reward for the killer, no further wondering, or expressions of horror that a murderer might still be on the loose, just...silence. I have been discussing this case with a psychiatrist friend of mine who says that women usually commit murders of family members, lovers, so she is quite ready to entertain the notion that Lizzie may have done it (or had it done). I want to explore further the implications of Lizzie's pre- and post- murder behavior.

[deafandsmart]

I'm studying to become a psychologist myself. This definately makes sense...I mean, if you think about it, anyone who had a relative murdered will be angry or will do anything to get back to the person or find the person (if the person isn't found yet). These two just dropped it. However, I was writing a persuasion paper about Lizzie. I was wondering how I can put it up in the forum. It might be a few pages long, but it might be worth well reading.

[Nancie]

Well they had that big ad running in the newspapers
for $5,000 reward but I agree their silence and inactivity speaks loud. Deafandsmart I hope you can post your paper, I'm sure Harry or someone else good on computer will help you!

[Gramma]

Lizzie exibits many signs of guilty behavior that may come from knowing who commited the crime and actually helping them get away.

Gramma

[Kat]

"There is a chance that I shall not be quite unaided. Henry [her fiance] has promised not to come again until I bid him, but he is to send a detective here from Boston -- one whom he knows. In fact, that man is a cousin of his, or else there would be small hope of our securing him, even if I were to offer him a large price."

--More from the Long Arm.. Our girls put up a reward Friday, the day after the murders. Some say it was more likely they hired their private investigator that same weekend in order to have someone in with the police to keep track of the investigation and listen for clues-- not for a murderer --but for clues as to who was suspected and what might happen.
In this fictional story, the detective is called in over 7 weeks after the crime, and depended upon to solve it-- after the daughter, her boyfriend, and her father's cousin Rufus Bennett had all been arrested, separately and in reverse order and released.
Just how long did our Borden girls keep their private eye on retainer? Why did they want him Friday, while the police and news stories were still in chaos?

[Susan]

I don't find it so strange that Emma didn't search the house herself when I think of the time era, men were in charge of most everything and women were told not to worry their pretty little heads about such things. Perhaps she felt that the police had did all the searching they could and that she, with no Miss Marple or Agatha Christie to guide her, could do no better.

And then, perhaps, Emma did search, say, in Lizzie's room and what she found spoke volumes?

We know that Emma didn't care for Abby, enough to not care that she was mudered? I can't say. But, what were Emma's feelings towards Andrew? The way she so quickly cleaned up the blood in the sitting room sounds like she wanted any signs of the unpleasantness out of her way. Was it because she had a heart and didn't want the daily reminder of how Andrew died or, because she was in on it, and didn't want the guilty bloodstains pointing her way?

[Robert Harry]

Susan, you bring up a very good point. Think about it, if you were in Emma's shoes, would you want to clean up your own father's blood? I know I certainly would not. I would get someone else to do it. Recently, those photos of Diana have been condemned by her family--they can't even stand to look at the pictures--Imagine if they said, "Oh, let's go to Paris and help with the clean up." Something about the Borden "girls'" post-murder behavior is fishy indeed. I vote that, as Gramma said, it points to them knowing who did it and helping them keep out of suspicion's way.

[Kat]

It always seemed odd that Emma cleaned the blood off the Parlour door but not from anywhere else- and against Dr. Dolan's orders and she was expecting a funeral in the sitting room on Saturday. The implication is that Emma did not clean up anywhere else until she was given permission.
Why the parlour door? The parlour was the best room? Kept locked by Abby? Was Emma of the same possessiveness of that parlour? Did it stand for something?

The story was written by a woman, about a woman suspected of a crime of bloody murder- in 1895. I figured if this author could think of this approach, Lizzie could think of it- maybe not Emma- but Lizzie could have influenced Emma from jail to doeverything possible to solve the case.

[deafandsmart]

Well they had that big ad running in the newspapers
for $5,000 reward but I agree their silence and inactivity speaks loud. Deafandsmart I hope you can post your paper, I'm sure Harry or someone else good on computer will help you!

How do I do it??? Do I just typie it up in my microsoft word then attach it to one of my posts from the computer memory and then that's It? someone can read it???? I'm sorry...I'm totally lost and I'm still a little new here.

[Harry]

How do I do it??? Do I just typie it up in my microsoft word then attach it to one of my posts from the computer memory and then that's It? someone can read it???? I'm sorry...I'm totally lost and I'm still a little new here.

Yup, that's all there is to it. It's treated the same as attaching a photo. Here's an example. They can then be downloaded by the viewer.

If you already have it typed and have a scanner you can scan them in as a text document. How many pages are you talking about?

[deafandsmart]

How do I do it??? Do I just typie it up in my microsoft word then attach it to one of my posts from the computer memory and then that's It? someone can read it???? I'm sorry...I'm totally lost and I'm still a little new here.

Yup, that's all there is to it. It's treated the same as attaching a photo. Here's an example. They can then be downloaded by the viewer.

If you already have it typed and have a scanner you can scan them in as a text document. How many pages are you talking about?

erm...seven so far????

[Harry]

What format is it in now? On paper? On your computer?

[deafandsmart]

paper

[deafandsmart]

ok let's see if this works. I've tried 12 times trying to figure this out!!

[Harry]

ok let's see if this works. I've tried 12 times trying to figure this out!!

It worked fine. Sitting here reading it now!

[deafandsmart]

Now i gotta put it on the printer and then i can pass it in monday for school. I wasn't finished with the paper until finally I finished it on here for you all to see. some hard work. lol but i love writing, especialy when it's on a controversal subject such as this!

[Nancie]

Good Job Jana!

[Kat]

I'm sorry I haven't downloaded anything yet- but there was a discussion going on here- what happened?

[deafandsmart]

I'm sorry I haven't downloaded anything yet- but there was a discussion going on here- what happened?

Well, Kat, I wrote a persuasion paper for my English class. It's due Monday, and I thought I'd show the forum. It seems like everybody liked what I had written. They obviously didn't tell me whether or not they agreed with it, but at least they liked what I had written, whether or not they agree with it.

[Kat]

That may be so, I hope you do well.
But this is not the topic for that.
You are welcome to start a new one if you have a paper due.
Harry is always willing to help.

[Kat]

"Wednesday night- I have resolved to record carefully each day the progress I make in my examination of the house. I began today at the bottom -- that is, with the room least likely to contain any clue, the parlour. I took a chalk line and a yardstick, and divided the floor into square yards, and every one of those squares I examined on my hands and knees. I found in this way literally nothing on the carpet but dust, lint, two common white pins, and three inches of blue sewing silk.

At last I got the dustpan and brush, and yard by yard swept the floor. I took the sweepings in a white pasteboard box out into the yard in the strong sunlight, and examined them. There was nothing but dust and lint and five inches of brown woollen thread- evidently a ravelling of some dress material. The blue silk and the brown thread are the only possible clues which I found today, and they are hardly possible. Rufus's wife can probably account for them. I have written to her about them."--The Long Arm

--To think that a woman writer, in 1895, could design this investigative technique is amazing to me. As far as we know, not even the cops did this good a job in this fictional case, nor in Lizzie's case. If one thinks about it, one realizes that a family member, who lives there, would be the perfect person to examine what is found (even if they couldn't bring themselves to sweep up dust on hands and knees)- they would know what "belonged" and what didn't.
I've been a very successful "finder" in my day. I have done almost this thorough an examination looking for something for someone, many times, and thru perserverence, always located the item. There is something satisfying to be methodical. I was known as the person "who could find things." I have a feeling other's here would have devised just such a search method if they lived in 1892 or 1895!
I don't know why such a search wasn't implemented. When I read about those sewing items and dress fibres in the story I want to send the Fall River police out again to that house on hands and knees!

[Susan]

Yes, Kat, I too have always found that strange that in Morse's Trial testimony he is asked only about Emma washing the bloodstains from the parlor door. I can't for the life of me figure that one out. There was the one stain on the jamb of the sitting room door going into the dining room, unless, was that the one that was removed by the police, the piece of doorjamb? And I believe there were a couple of spots on the sitting room door into the kitchen. The kitchen and dining room doors leading out of the sitting room would get the most usage and therefor be the ones most seen, why not clean those up too?


I do like this woman writer's style, she is very clever, it sounds almost like she is writing about an archaeological dig, very methodical. But, once again, I think it may have been the era, how many men of the Victorian era cleaned or swept carpets? I think that may have been part of women's domain and the thought may have never entered their heads. She is definitely on to something that modern forensics handles on a daily basis, clothing fibers and the like. Perhaps if there had been a woman on the Fall River police force at the time, we would have had more clues? I think Lizzie's dresses would have been more thoroughly examined, thats for sure!

[Susan]

Sorry, most post printed twice. I've been having problems with the page downloading, it takes FOREVER and keep getting warnings that the page has expired and I must refresh it.

[Kat]

Oh that's GOOD! I hadn't thought of that! About a woman being on the force thinking of sweepings and such-like. I was stuck in the thought of the men not doing such a good job- even knowing they weren't especially well-trained in a homicide investigation- not that they wouldn't think of sweeping because they might not have ever swept- so to speak. I guess Harrington should have been put in charge of examining all the clothes.

[Nancie]

well hindsight is good but it was over 100 years ago
so police just weren't well trained, male or
female. Some men are just as methodical and organized as women, but apparentlly they weren't on the Lizzie case at the time. Or maybe the ones that were good detectives were told to stop investigating? I think it is silly to make this a male/female type discussion.

[Kat]

It's the kind of suggestion I hadn't thought of- about what a woman might notice compared to a man. It's been laughed about for over a century still, that Harrington knew his dresses. It's a valid point simply because there was just such a large rift in the roles of women and men in those days. In fact, that rift probably gave rise to this murder. It can't be overlooked- but still I was looking at the idea of a male detective possibly being astute enough to think of this kind of investigative technique. I wonder what Mrs. Reagan's views were or Mrs. Wright? Or the lady journalists who were writers and might have had creative thoughts on how to solve this.

This genre of writing was considered "Gothic." The role given this female was important to this style of writing and affects the story.

[Audrey]

Lizzie's "fleas" were totally ignored and undiscussed. This shows a HUGE amount of "respect" shown to a woman in a murder investigation. Lizzie may very well have been able to dispose of evidence under the guise of "feminine hygiene".
(and I doubt Lizzie and Abby had a discussion of feminine freshness while throwing a frisbee on the banks of the watering hole at Swansea)

Much has changed in the last 100+ years. Women couldn't even vote when the Borden's were killed.

The roles of the sexes must be taken into account in all aspects of the investigation and trial.

[Kat]

"Father was dead there; he had been murdered in the night.

I think I must have fainted away, for presently I found myself on the floor, and for a minute I could not remember what had happened. Then I remembered, and an awful, unreasoning terror seized me. 'I must lock all the doors quick.' I thought; 'quick, or the murderer will come back.'

I tried to get up, but I could not stand. I sank down again. I had to crawl out of the room on my hands and knees.

I went first to the front door; it was locked with a key and a bolt. I went to next to the north door; and that was locked with a key and bolt. I went to the north shed door, and that was bolted. Then I went to the little-used east door in the shed, beside which the cat had her little passageway, and that was fastened with an iron hook. It has no latch. [the 'shed' was off the kitchen and near the pantry].

The whole house was fastened on the inside. The thought struck me like an icy hand, 'The murderer is in this house!' I rose to my feet then; I unhooked that door, and ran out of the house, and out of the yard, as for my life." --The Long Arm


--This girl was alone in the house and in the morning finds her father's bloody body. These are her reactions and thoughts. Of course our Lizzie thought there was Bridget in the house, at least, when she found her father's bloody body. But she did not call for Abby. It might seem that Lizzie might have more likely acted as this lady did- run away from that carnage, afraid the assassin was stil in there with her! This fictional girl had no very near neighbors-but those she had were 2 spinsters who were very interested in the comings and goings at this girls house.

[Nancie]

Kat it is hard to have a discussion on a book you are reading, is anyone else reading it or read it?
I will look for it, it sounds interesting. Reminds me
of the "diary of a maid" I was all excited about and
posting about and at the time it was all one-sided, only me reporting. But I was thrilled to hear others
had found the Diaries and maybe we can have a discussion after others read it. Same with Long Arm? I'm going to look for the book, I want to read it. Also you blew-off deafandsmart on here for disturbing your one
sided discussion, she was just trying to get around in this
new site like we all are. Sorry to be honest, can't help it. (NO I'm not sick
and in need of help! I'm just honest! Like Maxine!)

[Kat]

It's not about the story. It's about the idea behind the story. This is a thread I have thought about and composed. The point is to stir up ideas. Make comparisons and contrasts. I have the next section ready which is a turn-around. It is a different view of the same thing. This topic is based on a story based on the case and it's the first fictional treatment of the Borden case ever published. I am trying to give it thoughtful treatment.

If you are not interested, you need not reply.
deafandsmart is a grown-up and can come or go.
I would like some bit of rules to go by in this Forum, and the first rule of Forums is to stay on topic. I can ask that of any member at any time. Any member can ask the same thing.

I don't know how you know if deafandsmart has been run-off- but I had written her Private Message to talk about her paper with her and I had spent time talking to Stef who is a teacher to find out how to deal with special needs, because I'm not a teacher- but willingto try to help with her paper if she wanted. I wrote to her with questions to start while I examined information on how to proceed. I was preparing myself.
I don't see that this is any of your business. i also wonder when I am accused of things and the person has no idea of the background- what's going on in the bakground.
You should know by now you can trust me and trust my judgment.
I am very surprised at your post. [/b]

[Nancie]

and how would I or anyone else know of any
background? I just notice that deafandsmart isn't
on line here anymore. Sorry to be picky Kat, just
being myself. Kimberly helped me make my own
picture of myself to fit to make an avatar,did it
work?

[Kimberly]

edit

[Kat]

(From notes written by Miss Sarah Fairbanks immediately after the report of the Grand Jury.)

As I take my pen to write this, I have a feeling that I am in the witness-box –for, or against myself, which? The place of the criminal in the dock I will not voluntarily take. I will affirm neither my innocence nor my guilt. I will present the facts of the case as impartially and as coolly as if I had nothing at stake. I will let all who read this judge me as they will.

This I am bound to do since I am condemned to something infinitely worse than the life-cell or the gallows. I will try my own self in lieu of judge and jury; my guilt or my innocence I will prove to you all, if it be in mortal power. In my despair I am tempted to say, I care not which it may be, so something be proved. Open condemnation could not overwhelm me like universal suspicion.

Now, first, as I have heard is the custom in the courts of law, I will present the case. "...

"I believe that parents should honor their children, as well as children their parents..."
....
[She found her dress bloody and cleaned it before she knew of the murder, but she instinctively knew to protect herself..]

"They looked in the closet where my green silk dress hung, and pushed it aside, to be sure nobody was concealed behind it., but they did not notice anything wrong about it. It was dark in the closet, and besides, they did not look for anything like that until later.

All these people -- the deputy shefiff, and afterwards the high sheriff, and other out-of-town officers, for whom they had telegraphed, and the neighbors -- all hunted their own suspicions, and that was Rufus Bennett. All believed he had come back, and killed my father. They fitted all the facts to that belief. They made him do the deed with a long, slender screwdriver, which he had recentlyborrowed from one of the neighbors and had not returned. They made his finger-marks, which were still on my father's throat, fit the red prints of the sitting-room door. They made sure that he had returned and stolen into the house by the east door shed, while father and I sat on the doorsteps the evening before; that he had hidden himself away, perhaps in that very closet where my dress hung, and afterwards stolen out and killed my father, and then escaped.

They were not shaken when I told them that every door was bolted and barred that morning. They themselves found all the windows fastened down, except a few which were open on account of the heat, and even these last were raised only the width of the sash, and fastened with sticks, so that they could be raised no higher. Father was very cautious about fastening the house, for he sometimes had considerable sums of money by him. The officers saw all these difficulties in the way, but they fitted them somehow to their theory, and two deputy sheriffs were at once sent to apprehend Rufus.

They had not begun to suspect me then, and not the slightest watch was kept on my movements. ...

An inquest was held, and I told freely all I knew, except about the blood-stains on my dress. I hardly knew why I kept that back. I had no feeling then that I might have done the deed myself, and I could not bear to convict myself, if I was innocent."

In this selection there are the elements of the bizarre. The daughter washes blood from her dress and then finds the body of her father. She knows this in her mind but doesn't tell of it, because she doesn't yet understand. She knows the house was locked from within, and she must be wondering if she really did kill her father herself. She would feel the need to gain time in order to assess her conscience and examine her memory. This is close to Lincoln's theory of epilepsy- or mild seizure disorder where there is missing time. The newer author, Silveria, commits to a theory of actual split-personality.
This daughter, caught in a nightmare, is watching this charade of the police finding "evidence" and is almost unconsciously protecting herself because she is witnessing the police railroading a suspect.
She would not want to say anything to incriminate herself, if she "was innocent."
I can see a new way of looking at Lizzie here. Even with guilty knowledge, she may be satisfied that her involvement in the crime was not much and consider herself somewhat innocent. She would desperatly want to buy time to see what the evidence was against anyone- hopefully not her. Her inquest answers, seen in this light, of buying time, may be why she sounds so confused and she may have been very afraid and just trying to protect herself, until she decided if she "was innocent."

This girl is telling her story finally and wishes us to judge.
What she says at the beginning may be why Lizzie did not speak:
"I will affirm neither my innocence nor my guilt."
And it might be proper to say that there was not much honor between parent and child in this Borden household.

[theebmonique]

Kat, this book seems to take a very interesting look into what Lizzie's state of mind may have been. What was the local level of expertise on the areas of multiple/split personalties at that time ? Sounds like a book I need to get and add to my so far limited collection. Thanks for introducing it !

Tracy...

[Kat]

It's a 29 page story that was reprinted in an anthology, "Victorian Tales of Mystery and Detection. 1992."
The story is a bit different that a regular fictional account of the Borden case.
It's considered a "Gothic" because the heroine is smart enough to collect the clues, but is limited when it comes to solving the crime. That's where The Man enters the picture- the hired detective.
It's really -to me- a cross-genre: Gothic evolving into "Locked Room Mystery." I love Locked Room Mystery.
I haven't studied Gothic but I believe Mary Shelly's Frankenstein is considered an example? Does anyone know the time period for Frankenstein?

[Susan]

It's the kind of suggestion I hadn't thought of- about what a woman might notice compared to a man. It's been laughed about for over a century still, that Harrington knew his dresses. It's a valid point simply because there was just such a large rift in the roles of women and men in those days

I've seen many scientific type shows on this topic, men's brains vs women's brains, and theres many websites out there that cover this also.

"Now research is confirming that the brains of men and women are somewhat different. Studies show that human male brains are, on average, approximately 10 percent larger than female brains. Certain brain areas in women, however, contain more nerve cells.

We must pay special interest on the amount of “gray matter,” the part of the brain that allows us to think. The researchers wanted to know if women have as much gray matter as men or more to make up for the smaller brains. Later, it was proven that women have 55.4 percent gray matter, vs. 50.8 in men.

Men listen with only one side of their brains, while women use both, according to information on brain imaging presented in November 2002, at the 86th Scientific Assembly and Annual Meeting of the Radiological Society of North America (RSNA).

Other research suggests that on average the female brain performs better on some skills, while the male brain executes other tasks at a higher level.

It makes sense that brains vary between the sexes. Each sex had a very defined role in ancient time, which helped ensure the survival of the human race. Cave men hunted. Cave women gathered food near the home, and cared for the children.

None of these show superiority, but does show that we are made differently, with different needs, and different ideas. Why do we then compare for superiority, or even expect the other to be just like us?"

From this site:
http://www.luvshades.com/womenfolk/merritt25.htm

Add to this society's roles for the sexes; the way males and females are raised differently, and you can see why a woman might pick up on something completely different than a man.

[Kat]

*Marked down the women's brains because they'd been used*- that's pretty funny! Thanks for the info and the link.

I had read and heard that women have more connections, overall, between the left brain and the right brain, then men do. And that men's brain's neurons were farther apart and so the synapse had farther to travel- took a little longer so to speak. But I've always been of the understanding that they are not equal but the brains have evolved to have their own strengths. So yes, they are different.

[Kat]

"Neither at the preliminary examination, nor before the grand jury, was I allowed to make the full and frank statement that I am making here. I was told simply to answer the questions that were put to me, and to volunteer nothing, and I obeyed." --The Long Arm


Looking at Lizzie's inquest testimony we find it reads as an unusual document. We have it explained that these are Lizzie's own words, her own voice. But is it? Jennings was astute enough to warn Lizzie exactly how to act in inquest. He probably gave her this very advice, written here in this story. If Lizzie was restricted to giving up as simple an answer as she could, in the hopes of not incriminating hereself, then this is not how Lizzie really sounds. This is how a suspect sounds.

[Susan]

Thats a good point, Kat. Lizzie is all over the place in her Inquest and sometimes a bit more info would help make clear just what she means, but, she doesn't deliver. At some points in the Inquest, Lizzie does volunteer information that wasn't asked for, such as picking up the chip from the barn floor. I don't think any person could go for hours and just give curt answers and not tell a bit more even if told not to spill the beans.

Do you think Jennings may have told Lizzie to deliberately play "cat and mouse" with Knowlton about her upstairs, downstairs, on the stairs contradictions? Or, do you think that may have been true Lizzie with something to hide?

[Audrey]

Lizzie may have been forced to think up things on the spot she had not prepared for.

If she was lying on the stand and was asked a quesiton she did not expect or did not know the answer to (or wish to give it) she may not have had time to come up with a prepared response.

She may also have "forgotten" what she had already said if she had no memory of it, which might indicate it was a lie.

Lizzie was being asked question after question. She could not get up and leave. She had to answer them somehow. If she didn't tell the truth (which would be in her memory) she would have to lie (which would be in her imagination) and it would be harder to remain consistent.

[Kat]

That's a good question Susan. And a good point Audrey.

I think that Jennings would try to have Lizzie keep it simple. And I agree that that is against human nature after a couple of hours, so yes she would begin to elaborate a bit, especially when her answers began to no longer sound acceptable to KNowlton. He used intimidation and unless Lizzie was an experienced master criminal, she would eventually cave- also if she was influenced by morphine.
The newspapers said that after her last testimony she was taken out and totally broke down from nerves.

Another question becomes how well can Jennings prepare a Victorian pampered unsophisticated Miss to take the stand in a legal proceeding- and whether he knew the real story at the time he gave his advice to her as to how to proceed and get through it.
If Lizzie did not confide all to her lawyer his protection was limited.

[Susan]

Well, if there is any truth to argument between Lizzie and Emma in the prison cell, then perhaps Lizzie didn't tell all she could have to Jennings. Maybe she confided more to Emma who felt it was her duty to let Jennings in on everything, or, Emma was wise to the ways of legality.

Yes, poor Jennings must have had his hands full trying to prepare Lizzie for the Inquest, can you imagine what he went through with Emma preparing her to take the stand at the Trial?

[lydiapinkham]

I think the last thing Jennings would want to know would be the truth--unless that truth put Lizzie in the clear. At that time, at least, I think defense lawyers preferred to hold onto presumption of innocent, so they could keep clear consciences and so they could provide the most persuasive defense to the jury. I suspect he would lead Lizzie during preparation to have plausible accounts for everything. I also think he kept her off the stand so she could be asked no questions unprepared for. The inquest showed her to be poor at thinking on her feet (or seat).

--Lyddie

[Kat]

I was just discussing this the other day. Would a defence lawyer leave a client if they knew or found out their client is guilty. Whenever a lawyer walks out- I think it's possible.
I think Jennings believed in Lizzie and that was from being a gentleman and a friend of Andrew and Emma. And also because after the trial we hear he is still looking for leads.

So it might be that Lizzie told Emma everything and then asked her to keep quiet. And then something came up that Emma had to admit to Jennings for what she thought was in Lizzie's best interests. Then the quarrel.
Lizzie, if she did not confide all to her lawyer, was taking a pretty big chance that she knew better than he in how to proceed.
I wonder how much control Lizzie wieled behind the scene in her own defence and whether she ever wanted to testify at the trial?

[Susan]

I can totally see Lizzie telling Emma what she thinks or knows, Emma needs to hear to appease her. Things she only wanted Emma to hear, that only Emma would believe. I'm thinking along the lines of what Lizzie had said to Alice Russell the night before and Alice prompting Lizzie to tell the officer all she had said to her, Lizzie never did.

Yes, at some points in the Trial, from the newspaper reports, it sounded as though Lizzie was very active with her defense team. Whispering to them and such, like the bit about kissing her father's corpse that was brought out by her prompting. It sounds like Lizzie would have liked to take the stand, but, probably was told it was in her best interest to remain mute.

[lydiapinkham]

I think Lizzie did tell Emma everything, but Jennings? I think she'd want to keep her image pure with him, so he could argue with conviction in order to avoid conviction.

--Lyddie

[diana]

The reference to Lizzie wanting Jennings to maintain a "pure" image of her reminded me of an Oct. 18, 1887 newspaper article reproduced in Victorian Vistas Vol II (p. 198) sardonically headed "St. Jennings". [St. being the abbreviation for Saint, not Street -- in this case.]

The article says in part:
"The announcement that Mr. Andrew J. Jennings proposed to enter the field as a prohibition candidate for the mayoralty fell 'with a dull thud' upon the Republican party, as it showed that he was sinking in his respect for and allegiance to the political brotherhood to whom he owes all the fame and honor he possesses as an ex-state senator in a desire to carry out his crotchety notions as a thick and thin prohibitionist."

Lizzie's ties to the WCTU may have softened his heart towards her and created a bond. The article implies he risked his political future by upholding convictions in regards to the evils of alcohol.

"Mr.Jennings may not have been 'a guide, a buckler, an example to all of the flock,' but he was a very nice young man, .... and he will be missed unless he happens to be struck with a vivid flash of common sense and begins to understand that it is better to be a servitor in the house of the Republicans than to play high, jack and game in a prohibition tempest in a teapot."

[Kat]

Thanks Diana.
I had wondered about the fact that Jennings admitted to knowing Andrew and Emma well over the years, but it implies he did not know Lizzie well.
I have been trying to figure out why he would know Emma- in what capacity? Just because she is older? Is it possible he had some legal dealings with Emma in past years, before the murders?

Evening Standard, Saturday, August 6th, 1892:

"A TALK WITH MR. BORDEN’S LAWYER.

A. J. Jennings Says the Murder is a
Remarkable One in History.

Fall River, Aug. 6. --- Andrew J. Jennings was the attorney for Andrew J. Borden at the time of his death, and for many years past. Medical Examiner Dolan, by virtue of his office, has taken charge of all the personal effects of the deceased, and will hold them until an administrator is appointed. The Probate Court was sitting yesterday and it was thought by relatives of the deceased that such an administrator should be appointed. In reply to Dr. Dolan in relation to this matter Mr. Jennings said: 'Let the matter rest as it is.'
Mr. Jennings then went to the Borden residence and had a short talk with the daughters and with Mr. Morse. He told them it was not at all necessary to appoint the administrator at the first sitting of the court following death but on the contrary it was very unusual to do so in any case before the funeral of deceased.
A newspaper man called upon Mr. Jennings at his residence on June street last evening and had a long talk with him about the case and the theories that have been advanced.
'You are familiar with Mr. Borden's affairs, Mr. Jennings?' was asked.
'I have been his law adviser for many years, and am reasonably familiar with his business affairs. They were, I believe, in perfect order.'
'Do you know anything about his will?'
'I don't know that there is a will; and I may add that, if I did know, I do not think I would be at liberty to tell. That would be a matter of trust with me.'
'Would there be anything in the distribution of the property to offer a motive for such a crime?'
'There certainly would not be.'
'Who would profit by the death of these two people?'
'Well, no one would profit further than the natural distribution of the estate.'
'Do you know this man Morse?'
'Yes, I know about him.'
'Would he gain anything?'
'I do not see how he would.'
'Do you know the Borden daughters?'
'Yes, I know them. I know the elder one, Emma, better than Lizzie. Emma is about my age, and I have known her almost all my life. They are quiet, modest ladies.'
'Do you know anything about there being insanity in the family---about Lizzie being touched with it?'
'I do not. Never heard of it before this.'
'Have you any theory of the crime?'
'I have not. I have read many cases in the books, the newspapers and in fiction---in novels---and I never heard of a case as remarkable as is this. A most outrageous brutal crime, perpetrated in midday in an open house on a prominent thoroughfare, and absolutely motiveless---absolutely motiveless.'
'The theories advanced---these quarrels about wages and about the possession of stores and that sort of thing---are simply ridiculous. They do not offer a motive. If it was shown that the thing was done during even such a quarrel, in the heat of passion, it would be different; but to suppose that for such a matter a man will lie in wait or steal upon his victim while asleep and hack him to death is preposterous. Even with revenge in his heart, the site of his victim asleep would disarm almost any man.'
'Then to consider the almost miracle necessary for a man to enter, commit the deed, and escape without being discovered,' suggested the reporter.
'It would be a remarkable combination of circumstances, but not a miracle,' said Mr. Jennings, 'impressed with it, as everybody has been. I have recalled how frequently I have entered and gone through my mother's house and out again without meeting a soul, and how I could at such times have carried off most anything without being discovered.'
'And what is your notion about it being done by some member of the household?'
'Well, there were but two women of the household there and this man Morse, whose name is connected with it. He accounts so satisfactorily for every hour of that morning, showing him to be out of the house, that there seems no ground to base a reasonable suspicion. Further than that he appeared on the scene almost immediately after the discovery from the outside, and in the same clothes that he had worn in the early morning.
Now it is almost impossible that this frightful work could have been done without the clothes of the person who did it being bespattered with blood.
Then there is Lizzie Borden, dressed to-day in the same clothes she wore yesterday---she has not changed her clothes since. This, together with the improbability that any woman could do such a piece of work, makes the suspicion seem altogether irrational.' "


--Just a note: A woman has been known to kill the person whom she considers her oppressor when he is asleep or in bed- because she is killing in what she considers self-defense- and since the man is larger she can wait until he is neutralized (asleep/resting) before she actually prepares to defend herself. This has been the basis of numerous criminal defenses in court in the last 2 or 3 decades.

[Nancie]

Today I caught the whole recap of the OJ trial on
E true hollywood crimes, done with live recent
interviews. I remember back in 94 being rivited to that case and was sure OJ did it. Seeing this recap,
I think he might be innocent. ok now my challange is to connect this to the topic at hand. The cases are really very similar, no real hard core evidence,
and the lawyers did a brilliant job.