"The Hip-Bath Collection"

Laura · Post by **Laura** » Thu Sep 29, 2005 10:56 am

Has Jennings' "Hip-Bath Collection" ever been published?

Audrey · Post by **Audrey** » Thu Sep 29, 2005 9:50 pm

I do not believe so...

For some reason I think the hip bath collection brouhaha was much ado about nothing...

Laura · Post by **Laura** » Fri Sep 30, 2005 11:27 am

Wasn't there some theory that Jennings believed Lizzie to be guilty and that was the reason he kept his notes? Then, after his death, nothing of significance was found in the collection? Or so I've read.

Regardless, it would be interesting to read just what he did keep. Anyone from FRHS out there? If published, I can guarantee that at least one sale would be made.

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Fri Sep 30, 2005 12:22 pm

The book "Proceedings - Lizzie Borden Conference" has about 10 pages devoted to the hip-bath collection. The collection consists of:

1 - Photographs - virtually every one of the photos we've all seen.
2 - The handleless hatchet
3 - The tags that were on the bottles Dr. Dolan used for the milk and stomachs
4 - Abby's hair swatch and the bloody handkerchief
5 - Pillow shams and bed spread - with Abby's blood spots
6 - Newspaper clippings
7 - The Stenographers minutes of the Preliminary hearing - the only known copy. - 5 volumes
8 - Blueprints of the Borden house
9 - Boston Globe articles - day to day coverage
10 - Boston Herald articles
11 - Hair samples - from Mr. and Mrs. Borden
12 - 2 Red leather notebooks - Jenning's notes

Now that's some good stuff! Most are on view at the Fall River Historical Society.

You can purchase a transcribed copy of the Preliminary at:

http://www.lizzieandrewborden.com/Borde ... cripts.htm

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Fri Sep 30, 2005 2:14 pm

I for one would be very much interested in seeing what Mr. Robinson's files contain.

http://www.s-t.com/daily/04-98/04-14-98/a02lo019.htm

"Was there a confession? Or other clues to motive or murderer? The records fill a locked file drawer in a Springfield, Mass., law firm's 16th floor office. And that's where they'll stay, protected by the Supreme Court ruling last month that the secret conversations of the late deputy White House counsel Vincent W. Foster Jr. and his lawyer should remain private, even after Foster's death" (James Toedtman in Newsday, The Washington Post, July 13, 1998).

http://www.loper.org/~george/trends/1998/Jul/99.html

Nancie · Post by **Nancie** » Fri Sep 30, 2005 4:20 pm

Clinton was SO guilty in Foster's death. I don't think you can compare it to the Borden murders tho

1bigsteve · Post by **1bigsteve** » Fri Sep 30, 2005 5:13 pm

Nancie @ Fri Sep 30, 2005 12:20 pm wrote:Clinton was SO guilty in Foster's death. I don't think you can compare it to the Borden murders tho

Foster didn't even pull the trigger himself.

-1bigsteve (o:

nbcatlover · Post by **nbcatlover** » Fri Sep 30, 2005 5:45 pm

Barbara M. Ashton's The Hip Bath Collection: How It Influenced the Legend of Lizzie Borden in Proceedings is what got me interested in Lizzie research.

The single sheet of paper and the list of numbers (money owed?) and Jesse G Gladding, Bristol R.I.and Burlingame think or Burlingham (stor(?) their Farmer on Borden and Almy's farm Swansea piqued my curiosity.

What is the significance of Jan. 25, '76?

For me, the plot thickened.

Laura · Post by **Laura** » Fri Sep 30, 2005 7:35 pm

Thanks, Harry, for the inventory list of The Hip Bath Collection. I would LOVE to get my hands on the "two red leather notebooks"! Which reminds me; I've been using our local library's "Inter-Library Loan" system to track down a copy of the "Proceedings - Lizzie Borden Conference". After two weeks, no luck. nbcatlover, would you know where a copy can be obtained?

nbcatlover · Post by **nbcatlover** » Fri Sep 30, 2005 8:15 pm

Laura--I bought mine locally at Baker Books, then in New Bedford (now Dartmouth) in 2001.

There are currently 11 copies available through secondary sellers on Amazon.com from $65 and up (original cost in 1992 was $25). I have purchased books safely this way.

The information on the book jacket is

Robert A. Flynn
Publisher
King Philip Publishing Co.
466 Ocean Ave.
Portland, ME 04103

Hope this helps.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Fri Sep 30, 2005 11:52 pm

I had heard that Bristol Community College still had copies of Proceedings, but I don't know for sure.
Agnes de Mille saw the collection as well as Ashton. I believe Ashton was President of the Historical Society at the time. Her chapter in very good.

I've never heard that Jennings thought his client was guilty. You might be referring to Phillips' chapter on the case? His comment, most quoted, doesn't exactly equate to a fact of guilt- it's more of a explanation as to why defense evidence would not ever be given out.

Laura · Post by **Laura** » Sat Oct 01, 2005 10:49 am

Thanks, nbcatlover! I have purchased through Amazon's secondary sources before - totally didn't think to check there for the "Proceedings"! I still have my fingers crossed that our local librarian will come through for me. BTW, I am also a cat lover, currently in possession of one, left from a family of three.

Kat, I don't remember where I had read the theory that Jennings believed his client to be guilty and thus his reason for keeping the "Collection". Probably a chapter in one of those "unsolved mystery" books. Certainly not a serious study of the subject.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sat Oct 01, 2005 5:26 pm

The books to which you refer have quoted the paragraph in support of their theory. It's nice to know the source of an author's comments. This might be it?
It seems to meet the requirements of the discussion.
Does this sound like it?
The "Phillips History" extract on the Bordens can be downloaded at:
http://lizzieandrewborden.com/Resources ... dBooks.htm

snokkums · Post by **snokkums** » Wed Oct 05, 2005 8:51 pm

Allen @ Fri Sep 30, 2005 1:14 pm wrote:I for one would be very much interested in seeing what Mr. Robinson's files contain.

http://www.s-t.com/daily/04-98/04-14-98/a02lo019.htm
I for one would love to see if there was a confession too. It would make for some good reading to really find out what went on between the lawyers and Lizzie. But I guess we will never know until they release the papers.

"Was there a confession? Or other clues to motive or murderer? The records fill a locked file drawer in a Springfield, Mass., law firm's 16th floor office. And that's where they'll stay, protected by the Supreme Court ruling last month that the secret conversations of the late deputy White House counsel Vincent W. Foster Jr. and his lawyer should remain private, even after Foster's death" (James Toedtman in Newsday, The Washington Post, July 13, 1998).

http://www.loper.org/~george/trends/1998/Jul/99.html

snokkums · Post by **snokkums** » Sun Oct 16, 2005 6:28 am

Laura @ Fri Sep 30, 2005 10:27 am wrote:Wasn't there some theory that Jennings believed Lizzie to be guilty and that was the reason he kept his notes? Then, after his death, nothing of significance was found in the collection? Or so I've read. Regardless, it would be interesting to read just what he did keep. Anyone from FRHS out there? If published, I can guarantee that at least one sale would be made.

I think it would be fun to read his notes to see what he actually thought. I'd love to read his notes.

mspitstop · Post by **mspitstop** » Wed Oct 26, 2005 9:06 pm

during the LB conference, in a small seminar with barbara ashton speaking and then fielding questions, i asked about the jennings journals. ashton said she was present when jennings's daughter presented it to the FRHS and during that time, she withdrew the two "red journals", deciding to keep them in the family.
at that time, an older man spoke up and said he was dwight waring, her son, and he had them. i asked him what he intended to do with them and if he would share information. he most certainly would not. he said he intended to write a book. i suggested he make it easy on himself and just publish the journals...there would be plenty of takers!!!!
after the seminar, ms. ashton told me i had opened a "can of worms", that he'd been saying for years he would write a book.
i have tried to research the pinkerton report and hoped it would be there. does anyone know if barbara ashton or the waring "boys" are still alive?

Gramma · Post by **Gramma** » Wed Oct 26, 2005 10:00 pm

As far as I know the Jennings grandsons are still alive. I spent some time with them at the conference. They do have the notebooks as well as some other notes and one of them was intending to write a book but I do not know if he has ever managed to start that project. They did share some of their feelings with me but that was a private conversation.
I also have a copy of "Proceedings......." if anyone wants a specific look-up.

Gramma[/u]

snokkums · Post by **snokkums** » Thu Oct 27, 2005 5:21 am

maybe we on this forum should write a book on lizzie. After all there are some very knowledgeable (?? spelling) on this forum!!

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Thu Oct 27, 2005 8:57 am

I believe Barbara Ashton has died recently, like 2000.
I was looking for her myself.
There was a record of a death notice online but I couldn't see it- you had to send for it.
I've SO heard that before- someone *is writing a book*, but for 30 years there's no book!
I can think of a few people- alive like that and a few people who have died- without producing that book I've been hearing about.

Haulover · Post by **Haulover** » Thu Oct 27, 2005 10:19 pm

i believe in the existence of false claims to knowledge.

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