Do you think Lizzie saw a psychiatrist?

[Elizabelle]

With her having a great desire to be fashionable, do you think Lizzie jumped on the "psycho-analyst" bandwagon of the 19-teen's & 1920's and visited a shrink?

Being psychoanalyzed and dabbling in "the spiritual beyond" became really popular during the first 30 years of the twentieth century. Do you suppose Lizzie succumbed to temptation, let her guard down, and talked to a psychiatrist? If so, wouldn't that be interesting to get your hands on those PRIVATE RECORDS!!!

I'm sure she had a lot to talk about and had plenty of things to "get off her chest." If I was her psychiatrist, I'd be dropping my pen a lot...

I think it would be the most amazing thing in the world to know what EXACTLY went through Miss Lizbeth Borden's head. She is so fascinating & intriguing. She is like an enigma, wrapped in a mystery, enclosed in a riddle.

I'm assuming in 1892 that prisoners weren't given psychiatric evaluations. So I wouldn't count on any information there. But later on in her life... in the 20th century, do you think it might be a possibility?

Wouldn't it be awesome if there was even just a shred of evidence that maybe, just maybe, Lizzie's "head was shrunk" by a shrink?

[1bigsteve]

Good question, Diane, but I doubt she did. She was born in 1860 and so probably did not believe in that kind of "flapdoodle." It was harder for people of her generation to change their attitudes about new discoveries. My Grandmother was born in 1905 and she died a few years ago with that old frame of mine that everthing new is "hogwash."

It would be interesting to know if she did and what she said. Oh, to be a fly on the wall with a tape recorder...

-1bigsteve (o:

[DWilly]

It would be interesting to know if she did and what she said. Oh, to be a fly on the wall with a tape recorder...

-1bigsteve (o:

That plus any letters to Nance O'Neil or Helen Leighton.

[Kat]

I thought she was evaluated by the head of an Institution?
Not in person, tho- Knowlton Papers letters?
What am I remembering?
(Besides the *Sanity Survey*)...

[snokkums]

I don't think she saw one either. But not because she thought it was hog wash. I think she didn't see the point of it. I don't think she thought there was anything wrong with her mentally, so she probably thought there was no sense in going to a shrink.

[Kat]

Here are the 2 letters, a back-and-forth, from Pillsbury to the Asylum Dr. Cowles, as a seemingly informal question as to an assessment of Lizzie as insane or not.

From: Commonwealth of Massachusetts VS. Lizzie A. Borden; The Knowlton Papers, 1892-1893. Eds. Michael Martins and Dennis A. Binette. Fall River, MA: Fall River Historical Society, 1994.

#HK077
"Letter, typewritten.

Sept. 22, 1892
My Dear Doctor:-

From such general knowledge as you have of the Borden
case, have you observed in it any indications of insanity? I should be glad to talk with you a moment concerning it, if you can look in when passing this way. There are some indications in the mechanical aspects of the case that it was the work of a maniac, and I am not sure but that we must
explore somewhat in that direction.
Very truly yours,
Attorney General.

[To]Dr. Edward Cowles,
McLean Asylum for the Insane,
______________________________

#HK078
"Letter, handwritten in ink.

MC LEAN ASYLUM,
SOMERVILLE, MASS.

Hanover, N.H.
Sept. 24, 1892
My Dear Sir:-
In yours of the 22d inst., forwarded to me here from Somerville, I have your question whether from such general knowledge as I have of the Borden case, I have observed in it any indications of insanity?

I shall be absent from home until about the 5th of October, and I can not call at your office till after that time, but I will then do so should you still wish it.

I will say now, however, that my inferences have been against a theory of insanity in the person charged with the crime, from anything I have so far read concerning her conduct before or after the event. As to 'the mechanical aspects of the case', I have not knowledge enough of them to have attempted any inference.

I would willingly talk with you concerning this matter;- I will find time enough for that, altho' an extraordinary winter's work is to begin immediately upon my return.
Very Truly Yours
Edward Cowles

[To]Hon.A.E. Pillsbury
Attorney General."

[snokkums]

I guess with all his mombo jombo is his way of saying he can't say she's crazy with out examing her.

[Edisto]

"Cat-beheading" stories to the contrary, Lizzie sounds to me like a fairly well-adjusted person -- at least based on the evidence to which we can give any credence. This morning's Post has an item about narcissists. It specifically concerns narcissists in the workplace. I have wondered if our Lizzie didn't have a bit of narcissism in her make-up. That doesn't mean she was "crazy," however. Personally, I think everybody is a little bit crazy, and I certainly include myself. --But up until the time of the murders, it doesn't seem to me that Lizzie was any crazier than the average person. --And if she was indeed afflicted with narcissism, she probably didn't view herself as needing psychiatric help.

A couple of Lizzie's known communications (the "little bird" letter and the note to Hattie about the scrapbook project -- if that's what it was) have a somewhat haughty tone to them. Her behavior during the trial, as it's described in the newspapers, seemed a little atypical for somebody facing at the very least a long prison sentence. She sounds somewhat removed from or above it all.

Incidentally, an expert on the subject of narcissists in the workplace, quoted in the Post article, advises: "Avoid narcissists wherever possible."

[DWilly]

"Cat-beheading" stories to the contrary, Lizzie sounds to me like a fairly well-adjusted person -- at least based on the evidence to which we can give any credence. This morning's Post has an item about narcissists. It specifically concerns narcissists in the workplace. I have wondered if our Lizzie didn't have a bit of narcissism in her make-up. That doesn't mean she was "crazy," however. Personally, I think everybody is a little bit crazy, and I certainly include myself. --But up until the time of the murders, it doesn't seem to me that Lizzie was any crazier than the average person. --And if she was indeed afflicted with narcissism, she probably didn't view herself as needing psychiatric help.

A couple of Lizzie's known communications (the "little bird" letter and the note to Hattie about the scrapbook project -- if that's what it was) have a somewhat haughty tone to them. Her behavior during the trial, as it's described in the newspapers, seemed a little atypical for somebody facing at the very least a long prison sentence. She sounds somewhat removed from or above it all.

Incidentally, an expert on the subject of narcissists in the workplace, quoted in the Post article, advises: "Avoid narcissists wherever possible."

I'm no expert on the subject of psycology so, I did a quick look see on the web. Two sites listed these as some of the traits of a narcissist. Lizzie fits a some of them, but I don't think she fits all of them. Here they are:


Characteristics of Narcissistic Personality Disorder


A pattern of grandiosity, need for admiration, and lack of empathy which begins by early adulthood and is present in differing contexts within a person's life.


A narcissistic individual is grandiose in their sense of self-importance and exaggerates their achievements and talents. He expects to be recognized as superior without achieving any great accomplishments.

A narcissistic individual is preoccupied with fantasies of his brilliance as well as his unlimited success or power. He fantasizes about beauty or ideal love.

A narcissistic individual believes that he is "special" or "unique." He feels that he can only be understood by or should associate with other special or high status people.

A narcissistic individual requires excessive admiration and is on a constant search for admiration.

A narcissistic individual has a sense of entitlement. He has unreasonable expectations of favorable treatment and expect others to automatically comply with his wishes.

A narcissistic individual takes advantage of others to achieve his own ends and uses others without regards to the feelings of others.

A narcissistic individual lacks empathy and does not identify with the feelings or needs of others.

A narcissstic individual is envious of others and believes that others are envious of him.

A narcissistic individual shows arrogant or haughty behaviors or attitudes and does not care who he offends






I was trying to think of a killer who more fit the idea of a narcissist. Thought of Scott Peterson or Mark Hacking but then I remembered Jeffrey McDonald. I read the book Fatal Vision and although I don't recall the author saying McDonald was a narcissist I do feel that's the way he came across in the book. I really enjoyed that book too. Great true crime story.

[1bigsteve]

Now I know what my Dad's problem is!

-1bigsteve (o:

[Allen]

Here are the 2 letters, a back-and-forth, from Pillsbury to the Asylum Dr. Cowles, as a seemingly informal question as to an assessment of Lizzie as insane or not.

From: Commonwealth of Massachusetts VS. Lizzie A. Borden; The Knowlton Papers, 1892-1893. Eds. Michael Martins and Dennis A. Binette. Fall River, MA: Fall River Historical Society, 1994.

#HK077
"Letter, typewritten.

Sept. 22, 1892
My Dear Doctor:-

From such general knowledge as you have of the Borden
case, have you observed in it any indications of insanity? I should be glad to talk with you a moment concerning it, if you can look in when passing this way. There are some indications in the mechanical aspects of the case that it was the work of a maniac, and I am not sure but that we must
explore somewhat in that direction.
Very truly yours,
Attorney General.

[To]Dr. Edward Cowles,
McLean Asylum for the Insane,
______________________________

#HK078
"Letter, handwritten in ink.

MC LEAN ASYLUM,
SOMERVILLE, MASS.

Hanover, N.H.
Sept. 24, 1892
My Dear Sir:-
In yours of the 22d inst., forwarded to me here from Somerville, I have your question whether from such general knowledge as I have of the Borden case, I have observed in it any indications of insanity?

I shall be absent from home until about the 5th of October, and I can not call at your office till after that time, but I will then do so should you still wish it.

I will say now, however, that my inferences have been against a theory of insanity in the person charged with the crime, from anything I have so far read concerning her conduct before or after the event. As to 'the mechanical aspects of the case', I have not knowledge enough of them to have attempted any inference.

I would willingly talk with you concerning this matter;- I will find time enough for that, altho' an extraordinary winter's work is to begin immediately upon my return.
Very Truly Yours
Edward Cowles

[To]Hon.A.E. Pillsbury
Attorney General."

Here's what I remembered reading, it just took me awhile to remember where I saw it. I found it in David Kent's book Forty Whacks. He has a reproduction of a letter from Andrew Jennings to Attorney General Pillsbury included in the book, with the caption:

Attorney Jenning's letter to Attorney General Pillsbury declining his proposal to have Lizzie submit to an insanity examination or to a plea of " not guilty by reason of insanity."

The letter was hard for me to make out in a few places, but I eventually figured most of it out. And I thougth my handwriting was bad?? I left blanks to signify the words I couldn't decipher. Here goes...

Fall River, Mass., November 22, 1892

Hon. A. E. Pillsbury
Attorney General

My Dear Pillsbury,
Since my talk with you I have been seriously considering your proposition and have come to the conclusion that I cannot consent to unite with you in the examinations proposed. I asked Adams opinion on the advisability of the course prepared without expressing any opinions of my own and also on my __ __ that of Mr. Holmes who, to a certain extent, represents the Borden girls, without informing him that I had consulted Adams. Both came to the same conclusions, that in view of all the circumstances we could not do anything which suggested a doubt of her innocence and that the course prepared would not be wise or expedient on our part.

Sincerely Yours,
Andrew J. Jennings

This letter was typed and was much easier to read .


New Bedford, Mass., November 22, 1892.

Hon. A. E. Pillsbury,
Attorney General.

Dear Sir:-
I did not have time to write so fully as I desired about this sanity business. I could do nothing what-ever with Jennings. He took exactly the position I feared he would, and seemed to regard it as some sort of a surrender if he consented to anything. We can make some investigations into the family matters without him, but it will not be so thorough as it would be if we had his assistance.

I note your suggestions about the form of indictment, which I will adopt if we ever get so far; of which, however, I am far from certain.

Yours Truly,
H .M. Knowlton

District Attorney Knowlton's letter to Attorney General Pillsbury in which he expresses his doubt there is sufficient evidence for an indictment since Andrew Jennings refuses to have Lizzie examined for insanity.

[Kat]

Yes, this last exchange was leading up to *The Sanity Survey.* Batchelder conducted it with friends, neighbors, extended family members and such-like. What the State wanted was Jennings' cooperation from the girls so the survey could be sanctioned by them- helping them gather real info on the family. Essentially, Knowlton wanted the defense to say to these outside people that it was OK to talk truthfully to the State about the Bordens' and the Morses' sanity! The wish of the prosecution probably included asking Jenning's to think over an insanity defense as well.

Thank you for the transcription.

[snokkums]

I just don't think Lizzie thought she was a nut job. So she probably didn't think to go to a shrink.

[Angel]

I posted something along these lines quite a while back, but it didn't seem to pick up steam, so I'm going to do it again because these questions are still on my mind. I have had a chance to read most of the books about Lizzie since then, and I still feel that there may have been some concerns from her family about her stability. Maybe there was a lot more going on behind those closed doors than anyone knew. There was Lizzie, a quiet kind of loner in her early years at school, her changing behavior about five years before the murders, her reputation of being odd, the possibility of lesbian tendencies in a Victorian world, her kleptomania (which some think could be caused by abuse in the home), the stories about her flying off the handle at times, her escalating anger at her stepmother, the so called break-in at the home, etc. There was her father saying to people that he was upset about things that were going on at home just before the murders. There was Abby saying that she was worried that they were being poisoned. There was Morse showing up just before the murders. And there was Emma who went on an uncharacteristically long stay away from home just before it happened. I think it is entirely possible that Lizzie, in her escalating anger against her parents and the will situation, became harder and harder to deal with and may have caused alarm in her family that she was losing it. They may have feared her at some point and decided to have her sent to an institution for their own protection. This may account for Emma going away, either by her own decision because she didn't want to have Lizzie hate her too, or by orders from the parents. This may be why Morse showed up, because he was being asked to aid in the family crisis when she was shipped off. Maybe Lizzie was picking up on the vibes and that is why she said the things she did the night before to Alice. And maybe, the night before, she overheard her parents talking about how they were going to handle her and that's what made her feel she had to kill them to stop them from carrying this out. She may have felt like a cornered rat. And then, after the deed was done, all the things that were driving her crazy were gone, and she was so relieved of all the tension that she was able to live a relatively normal life after that. Morse probably knew what she did, but his way of handling it was to get out of her life completely and never return. Emma probably wanted to believe she didn't do it, but, in the back of her mind knew and probably understood because she had had to live through it herself. Lizzie was like her little girl, so she loved and protected her.

[Kat]

Ah, but wasanyone trying to drive her crazy?

I only ask, because it sounds like it would make a good movie, if there were someone trying to drive her crazy- for their own ends.
Maybe Emma? A La Gaslight?
With the folks dead and Lizzie sent away, Emma gets it all?
And then because Lizzie got off, Emma shared the inheritance with her because she now was afraid of Lizzie.

----
I didn't know where to put this, so I will put it here.
I'm reading a biograpghy of Marjorie Kinnan Rawlings, and she fished and hunted A LOT in Florida (in the 1920's and 1930's), killing all kinds of things: Alligators, ducks, fowl of every kind, deer, probably bear etc. At first it was learning to provide food, but later it became sporting weekends with friends.
Then, later, she see's a squirrel killed near her house and says that it was a mother, full of milk for it's babies, and she agonized over that death because of the young-uns.
SQUIRRELS!.

I was wondering if Lizzie was like this?
It doesn't make sense to me, but here is an example!

[DWilly]

the possibility of lesbian tendencies in a Victorian world, her kleptomania (which some think could be caused by abuse in the home)

I think Lizzie's lesbianism may have caused her some emotional problems which led her to have outbursts and to her kleptomania. It may even be why she became so religious. Her feelings of guilt over her sexuality. And yes, I admit I'm speculating a bit here but I think if you take a close look at her you do see some reasons for the speculation. She shows no interest in single men her own age. She shows a lot of interest in females her own age. She may have attempted to like men but only if the man was married and "safe." This is where Bowen comes in.

I also wonder if it explains a rather bizzarre story I read on these boards. Someone posted something about some guy/boy getting caught over at the Churchill house watching Lizzie undress. Now, I haven't heard anything about this in any of the books I've read but then again I haven't read nearly as many as others have read. If the story is true, I wonder if Lizzie Knew the guy/boy was watching and again felt it was a safe way to try to be heterosexual or anything sexual. I think she had a lot of pent up emotions.

Emma probably wanted to believe she didn't do it, but, in the back of her mind knew and probably understood because she had had to live through it herself. Lizzie was like her little girl, so she loved and protected her

I read this in Frank Spiering's book pgs 214-215. It's from an interview Emma did with Edwin Maguire and she's talking about Lizzie:

"Perhaps people wondered why I stood so staunchly by Lizzie during the trial. I'll tell them why. Aside from my feelings as a sister, it was because I constantly had in mind our dear mother. She died when Lizzie was only three years of age, while I had reached twelve years. when my darling mother was on her deathbed she summoned me, and exacted a promise that I would always watch over 'baby Lizzie'. From childhood to womanhood and up to the time the murder occurred, I tried to safe guard Lizzie."

He goes on:

" I did my duty at the time of the trial and I am still going to do it in defending my sister even though circumstances have separated us. The vision of my dear mother always is bright in my mind. I want to feel that when Mother and I meet in the hereafter, she will tell me that I was faithful to her trust and that I looked after 'baby Lizzie to the best of my ability."

It ends with Emma muttering this:

" Though we must live as strangers...I am still the little mother..."

[Haulover]

angel:

that's a cogent, compelling story. i mean that as a compliment.

i've come to see the best of the "nonfiction" books as being good fiction, while the "fiction" books are mostly (thus far) trash. the reason i say this in the context of your post is that it sounds like you're developing a good story with a respect for facts (as well as we can know them).

as far as your theory solving the case -- what is the evidence that lizzie was actually irrational? OR that the animosity between lizzie and abby was extreme enough for lizzie to actually take an axe to her?

i do see the reason in the psychological dynamic you lay out.

[Kat]

I agree. I think she should write a screen play.

[Kat]

DWilly, I'd never read that about someone at Churchill's watching Lizzie undress. I wonder who thought that up?

Here is what Radin has to say about Lizzie and boys, pg. 42:
(And I'm not saying you're wrong in your view)

"Presiding Justice Benjamin Cook of the Second District Court is, unlike Kirby, a descendant of one of the early Fall River families and so moved in the same social
circles as the Bordens. He is the oldest active jurist in the United States with fifty-nine years of continuous service on the bench. When I interviewed him on the eve of his ninetieth birthday, he invited me into his chambers during a brief courtroom recess.

'My earliest memory of Lizzie Borden was hearing her play the piano in our house," he recalled. "She and Emma took lessons from my mother. Lizzie must have been a young teenager then. She was about ten years my senior so her friends were in a different generation than mine, but I went around with some of the younger brothers and sisters of her friends. I would see her at the larger functions the old families attended, particularly when I would come home from Harvard during holidays and vacations. I never paid any attention to who her escorts were, but young ladies in those days did not attend unless they were accompanied by a gentleman friend. I don't know if they were suitors but she went out with young men before the murders and you can draw your own conclusions.'"

and 44-45:
"Most young ladies then did very little traveling; they lived a closely circumscribed life. Although the population of Fall River grew until that city became the fourth largest in the state, the number of old families with whom a proper alliance could be made was small. It was further reduced because the young men in the best families went off to college and many of them met and married eligible young ladies elsewhere. This was the tragedy of many young women in New England in that period, the reason why many in the smaller cities and towns never married.

Emma was an example. When her schools days were over, she remained at home, saw only her very small circle of friends. With almost no outside activities, her days must have been dreary and endless repetitions."

and, 50+:

"Whether Lizzie Borden had any serious suitors before the murders we do not know. We know that she did attend social functions with escorts, and she did have what are today called dates. Her looks were no particular handicap as far as marriage was concerned, and the fact that she was a potential heiress to a comfortable fortune certainly would not keep men away. She demonstrated that she liked children, she did perform many kind acts, and she had a variety of interests, all of which could be counted as marriage assets. Her hobby of fishing could be appealing to some men.

It is true that her family was distinguished by its lack of warmth and she was not an effusive person. And, as her father's daughter, she would have discouraged any man who she thought was attracted by the Borden wealth. Courting in those days was largely done in the girl's home. A hopeful swain would first have to pay his respects to the assembled family, which, in this case, was a formidable one. There was the grim Andrew Borden, whose interests were confined largely to the wonders of Crane's Patent Burial Casket Cases and the fine print in intricate mortgages; there was the grotesquely fat Mrs. Borden, a sight to blunt romantic thoughts; and the dull Miss Emma with virtually no interests at all.

The narrow cramped house, with its peculiar first-floor layout of rooms, was another hurdle. Romance does require a modicum of privacy in order to develop and flourish. But with doors opening into the rooms from all sides, the probability that household traffic might have to pass through at any moment must have been a restraining factor, if not an outright deterrent, to anything beyond formal conversation. More privacy and spontaneity could have been achieved in a crowded railroad station.

If, as the poets sing, 'Love will find out the way,' we have no evidence that love had found its way through the locked doors of 92 Second Street prior to the morning of August 4, 1892."

--Whew!
I'm not saying I totally believe all this, but in dueling authors, it's valid, I suppose.

[snokkums]

I posted something along these lines quite a while back, but it didn't seem to pick up steam, so I'm going to do it again because these questions are still on my mind. I have had a chance to read most of the books about Lizzie since then, and I still feel that there may have been some concerns from her family about her stability. Maybe there was a lot more going on behind those closed doors than anyone knew.

Do you think that lizzie was sexuallyl abused,maybe? I mean sometimes the abused person does strike out and killing the abuser sometimes happens. I have often wondered if that was the case in Lizzie's situation.



There was Lizzie, a quiet kind of loner in her early years at school, her changing behavior about five years before the murders, her reputation of being odd, the possibility of lesbian tendencies in a Victorian world, her kleptomania (which some think could be caused by abuse in the home), the stories about her flying off the handle at times, her escalating anger at her stepmother, the so called break-in at the home, etc. There was her father saying to people that he was upset about things that were going on at home just before the murders. There was Abby saying that she was worried that they were being poisoned. There was Morse showing up just before the murders. And there was Emma who went on an uncharacteristically long stay away from home just before it happened. I think it is entirely possible that Lizzie, in her escalating anger against her parents and the will situation, became harder and harder to deal with and may have caused alarm in her family that she was losing it. They may have feared her at some point and decided to have her sent to an institution for their own protection. This may account for Emma going away, either by her own decision because she didn't want to have Lizzie hate her too, or by orders from the parents. This may be why Morse showed up, because he was being asked to aid in the family crisis when she was shipped off. Maybe Lizzie was picking up on the vibes and that is why she said the things she did the night before to Alice. And maybe, the night before, she overheard her parents talking about how they were going to handle her and that's what made her feel she had to kill them to stop them from carrying this out. She may have felt like a cornered rat. And then, after the deed was done, all the things that were driving her crazy were gone, and she was so relieved of all the tension that she was able to live a relatively normal life after that. Morse probably knew what she did, but his way of handling it was to get out of her life completely and never return. Emma probably wanted to believe she didn't do it, but, in the back of her mind knew and probably understood because she had had to live through it herself. Lizzie was like her little girl, so she loved and protected her.

[snokkums]

opps sorry didn't mean to quote the whole thing. still trying to figure the quote button out.

[Harry]

I believe the "... boarder watching Lizzie undress..." was just pure speculation by nbcatlover on this thread. She was just tossing out ideas.

viewtopic.php?t=852&

[Kat]

Hi snokkums:
Well, just say what you wanted to say. You don't really need the quote feature if you word your response to show who you are responding to.
What did you want to say?

[Kat]

Thanks Harry, for the link.

[Angel]

OK, I'll try this one more time, and then I give up. No one was trying to drive her crazy. I just see her family observing her behavior, such as moodiness, sulking, outbursts of building anger, stealing things from stores and necessitating her father having to cover this up by quietly paying for the things, stealing from her own family and trying to make it look like a break in, showing signs of lesbianism which was a scandal in those days, escalating bad feelings for step mother, possibly causing family to think she was trying to poison them, etc. None of this behavior could be called normal. If the father was upset enough to mention to someone that there was trouble at home, then, it seems to me, that there was a lot of tension and discomfort at home caused by someone. That's why I think they may have considered something drastic, either an ultimatum or a hospitalization that could have made Lizzie desperate enough to try to find a way out.

[Harry]

Oh, don't give up Angel. It's quite an interesting theory, certainly as plausible as some put forth by the authors.

If you believe Lizzie the assassin, something had to trigger the attack. Whether it was the making of a will, the transfer of more land or something we simply don't have any knowledge of, something triggered it.

Knowlton himself said he thought he would know the solution to the crime if he could have heard the conversation that occurred in the sitting room the night before the murders between the Bordens and uncle John Morse. I can see Lizzie on the landing above the front stairs straining to hear the conversation between them in the sitting room.

I don't believe one has to be crazy to the degree that they are always unable to function to have to be put away. Violent spells or threatening outbursts would certainly alarm anyone. It was probably easier to have someone committed in 1892 than today.

We do know that Emma was away for about a year and a half (per her own testimony). Whether she was sent away or wanted to go we simply don't know. Perhaps that was Andrew's method of solving a problem when it reached a breaking point. Of course Lizzie was much older than Emma was at the time Emma went away.

We just know so little of what went on in that house when the doors were shut to the outside world.

[Angel]

Oh! I had forgotten that Emma had been sent away. What age was she when this happened? It certainly would be interesting to know how Lizzie handled that, having her mother substitute gone and unable to protect her.

[Harry]

Unfortunately we don't know when or how old Emma was when she was away.

This is her Inquest testimony (p107). She is being questioned by Mr. Knowlton:

"Q. Have you lived at home most of the time?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Have you ever lived away from home?
A. I was away at school about a year and a half.
Q. That was sometime ago?
A. Yes Sir."

The use of the word "school" would seem to indicate she was fairly young at the time. We don't know the type of school or why it was necessary to remove her from the Fall River schools. I believe I read somewhere that there hasn't been found a record of her graduating in Fall River.

The term "school" could also hide a possible real reason she went away. That's pure speculation though.

[doug65oh]

Interesting point there Harry. Taking the age difference between the two into consideration, at the time Emma was away "at school" Lizzie would have been fairly young I would suppose, something between six and ten years of age give or take a couple - the underlying presumption being that Emma's schooling occured between the ages of sixteen and twenty, or just short of that, again plus or minus two years.

Andrew and Abbie were married at just about that time, were they not? (The lower end of the age scale for Lizzie, that is to say.) Getting Emma out of the house at that time might have given Abbie an opportunity to form a maternal bond with the child, among other things...

(At this point the attorney would jump up to holler "Objection - calls for speculation!")

But that's all we've got...

[Angel]

That's a good speculation. Maybe Lizzie started forming a bond with Abby and then Emma comes back, rankled that she was sent away at an important time, and sabotages the relationship over time. Emma, in her passive agressive way, could have created a monster.

[DWilly]

I also think Lizzie was emotionally troubled. Actually, I think all of the women in that house had emotional problems. Look at poor Abby and her weight problem. And as far as Emma goes, well, I think she may have been even more troubled than Lizzie. Maybe Andrew was just more able to cover up Emma's troubles than he was Lizzie's. I never thought about Emma's going off to school as possibly being Andrew sending her away for a time. It does make sense. Someone mentioned that maybe Abby tried to get close to Lizzie around that time. Made me think of that cup that was in the Rebello book. The one that was said to be from Abby to Lizzie. Maybe Emma was getting upset over Abby trying to get close to Lizzie. Seems like Emma may have had issues in that area. Maybe that's why later she didn't like Nance O'Neil. Didn't like any woman getting close to Lizzie.

[Nancie]

Didn't Emma go to some sort of school in Chicago?
I am only remembering that from the threads here.
DWilly when you say all the women in that family
had emotional problems, overweight, jealous, etc,
I can think of every single family I know (including
mine) that have the same problems. Something
much more traumatic would have to cause killing
your parents. Which is yet another reason I stand by my belief that Lizzie DIDN"T DO IT!

[Susan]

Nancie, I think that was speculation about Emma going to school in Chicago. If I recall correctly, the family was in Chicago long enough that Lizzie may have been enrolled in Sunday school there. Perhaps Emma went away to a finishing school for young ladies, a popular choice when college wasn't really an option for a young lady. That reminded me about something I had read that Plainfield, New Jersey had a finishing school or schools for young ladies that were quite popular at the time to send elite girls to from the eastern seaboard. Wouldn't that be a neat connection if Emma had gone there?

[Allen]

I have always believed the idea of the "woman's place" in Victorian society was bound to cause some women to be depressed. Women were born and raised from the time they were babies with the only goal of getting married and having a family. Women were not even encouraged to attend college or to learn anything past how to take care of a house and a husband. They were considered fragile both physically and mentally. According to some of the research I've done just about anything could cause a woman to be overcome by 'hysteria'. The lack of knowledge about a woman's body, coupled with the values that were instilled in them, I find to be frankly rather frightening at times by today's standards. Some of the supposed 'cures' that they used for hysteria range from embarrassing, to strange, to down right ridiculous. Diagnosis of female 'hysteria' reached epidemic proportions in Victorian times. I have also found it referred to as the 'daughter's disease.' It was the so called 'rest cure' which prompted Charlotte Perkins Gilman to write The Yellow Wallpaper.

http://college.hmco.com/history/readers ... health.htm

http://www.powells.com/review/2002_08_16.html

http://www-unix.oit.umass.edu/~clit121/weirmit.html

http://www.discoverychannel.ca/sexfiles ... s103a2.htm

http://www.amtamassage.org/journal/wint ... okback.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_hysteria

http://www.cl.utoledo.edu/canaday/quackery/quack4.html

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/masterpiece/ame ... e_bio.html

[DWilly]

I too, believe that the attitudes of Victorian Society compounded Lizzie's emotional problems. I think Lizzie resented Andrew's ability to control her life and I also think, as I've said before, that Lizzie during those early years was a severely repressed lesbian. I wonder if Dr. Bowen ever gave Lizzie a "pelvic massage"? Anyway, I think at least some of Lizzie's problems may have cleared up when she finally moved to Maplecroft and started living life the way she wanted too.

[Kat]

Eeewww, Dwilly!

Anyway, There are records of an *hysterical* outburst of shoplifting among the ladies of the era, once department stores became more common.
It seems middle class women couldn't resist the pretty-coloured baubles! According to some article somewhere.

[Nancie]

It kind of shows that really, things haven't changed
and never will. Have you seen all the commercials
for every ailment you could possibly imagine, and a
pill to cure it. (stiff legs is the latest one I've seen)
The newspapers of the 1890's are not much different, potions for all! Susan, Plainfield, NJ was
popular for housing unwed mothers, ah ha! What a
great secret if Emma "went away" for that purpose?

[Allen]

Interesting tid bit Nancie. I do know it was common practice up to as late as the 1950's and 60's unwed mothers were sent away by their families to have their babies.It is probably going on to some extent to this day. Friends and other family members were told that the girl had gone away to attend school or something of that nature. They had their children, gave them up, and came back as if nothing had happened. How traumatic would that be??? This would explain a lot about the "baby Lizzie" references made by Emma in a newspaper interview if it were to be so. Maybe she felt bound to take care of Lizzie because she herself was unable to take care of her own baby. She was fiercely bound to keep the promise to her mother to take care of her "baby Lizzie". Interesting theory.

[Susan]

Susan, Plainfield, NJ was
popular for housing unwed mothers, ah ha! What a
great secret if Emma "went away" for that purpose?

Wow, I've never heard that before! I went to Art School there in Plainfield which was in one of those beautiful, crumbling Victorian mansions. Yes, now that would be something if Emma had to be sent away, the quiet, unassuming sister that we really don't know much about.

[Kat]

Eeewww, Dwilly!

Anyway, There are records of an *hysterical* outburst of shoplifting among the ladies of the era, once department stores became more common.
It seems middle class women couldn't resist the pretty-coloured baubles! According to some article somewhere.

The "article somewhere" is from Proceedings, Chapter title: "The World Owed Her: Lizzie Borden's Shoplifting," by Joyce G. Williams, Ph.D, pages73-76.
Any of you with the book read this article?
I finally figured out where I read it.

"The Hip-Bath Collection" story is in that book too, pg. 211 - 221.
So is the poem attributed to Ms. Ashton which is a member's signature here.

[Smudgeman]

I posted something along these lines quite a while back, but it didn't seem to pick up steam, so I'm going to do it again because these questions are still on my mind. I have had a chance to read most of the books about Lizzie since then, and I still feel that there may have been some concerns from her family about her stability. Maybe there was a lot more going on behind those closed doors than anyone knew. There was Lizzie, a quiet kind of loner in her early years at school, her changing behavior about five years before the murders, her reputation of being odd, the possibility of lesbian tendencies in a Victorian world, her kleptomania (which some think could be caused by abuse in the home), the stories about her flying off the handle at times, her escalating anger at her stepmother, the so called break-in at the home, etc. There was her father saying to people that he was upset about things that were going on at home just before the murders. There was Abby saying that she was worried that they were being poisoned. There was Morse showing up just before the murders. And there was Emma who went on an uncharacteristically long stay away from home just before it happened. I think it is entirely possible that Lizzie, in her escalating anger against her parents and the will situation, became harder and harder to deal with and may have caused alarm in her family that she was losing it. They may have feared her at some point and decided to have her sent to an institution for their own protection. This may account for Emma going away, either by her own decision because she didn't want to have Lizzie hate her too, or by orders from the parents. This may be why Morse showed up, because he was being asked to aid in the family crisis when she was shipped off. Maybe Lizzie was picking up on the vibes and that is why she said the things she did the night before to Alice. And maybe, the night before, she overheard her parents talking about how they were going to handle her and that's what made her feel she had to kill them to stop them from carrying this out. She may have felt like a cornered rat. And then, after the deed was done, all the things that were driving her crazy were gone, and she was so relieved of all the tension that she was able to live a relatively normal life after that. Morse probably knew what she did, but his way of handling it was to get out of her life completely and never return. Emma probably wanted to believe she didn't do it, but, in the back of her mind knew and probably understood because she had had to live through it herself. Lizzie was like her little girl, so she loved and protected her.

Sorry, I am a bit behind responding to this topic, but I have had similar thoughts Like Angel about this. Maybe the family was planning on sending Lizzie away. Maybe she was becoming harder and harder to deal with, or maybe they suspected Lesbian tendencies, or for whatever reason they had planned to seek help from this situation. Lizzie had probably overheard them talking, or got bits and pieces from eavesdropping on their conversations, and took matters into her own hands. Or maybe she was just paranoid that they were planning to do something with her. The fact that Emma goes away, and Andrew ask for her help if he needs it is interesting. What kind of help would he need? Help with calming down a hysterical Lizzie if there was a confrontation? Andrew had hinted to some people that there was a problem of some sort in the household. What if the visitors that Abby was expecting were from a Nunnery or some sort or Psychiatric facility? Maybe Andrew and Abby were planning to contact "those" people the day of the murders, but never had a chance to?

[Angel]

Thanks, Smudgeman. I think alot of things that happened make sense if one thinks about that possibility.
My father had a younger sister who, at the age of six, developed german measles or some such thing, had a horrible reaction to it with an extremely high fever and then survived, but after that she must have had brain damage or something, because she became harder and harder to handle. She had temper tantrums and was so impulsive they had to watch her every minute. When she was sixteen years old ( probably around 1925 or so) she took her baby niece into a bedroom and locked the door. They had to break down the door to get in. She didn't hurt the baby, but it scared everyone so much that they decided to send her to an institution where she stayed until she died of a heart attack at the age of 44. They didn't have the diagnoses or medications that they do now so she was a great problem. There wasn't much people could do in those days except ship people off if they got too odd. Maybe Lizzie's oddness and/or temper got too weird for them and they felt they had no alternative. If Lizzie was angry about possible previous abuse, losing inheritance rights, Abby's interference, or whatever, and then got wind of what they were planning, she could have decided to get rid of the threat. That's a good point about the Monday "guests" Abby was preparing for. Maybe it was someone from an institution, or a nurse or something.

[DWilly]

Hasn't it already been pointed out that Emma rarely went on trips and that Abby rarely if ever had guests? If true, then two rather odd things at the same time. I didn't hear anything about Andrew asking for help. What kind of help was he asking for and who did he ask? The Rev. Buck?

[Allen]

I was watching a show called Real Exorcists yesterday and they were talking about the true case the the move The Exorcism of Emily Rose is based on. Did anyone else happen to see it? They kept mentioning something called Epileptic Psychosis and it intrigued me so I did some checking into what it was. I know there have been many discussions about Lincoln's theory that Lizze had temporal lobe epilepsy.I know there will never be a way to know whether or not Lizzie had it after all this time, but I can see now where Lincoln might have gotten the idea that Lizzie could possibly have suffered from it.

Psychiatric Disorders Associated With Epilepsy
http://www.emedicine.com/neuro/topic604.htm

ABSENCE EPILEPSY AND PSYCHOSIS: A REPORT OF TWO CASES
http://www.med.ege.edu.tr/~norolbil/2000/NBD08100.html

Psychiatric Comorbidityin Epilepsy and End Stage Renal Disease
http://www.wisconsinmedicalsociety.org/ ... 0psychosis'

Schizophrenia-Like Psychosis and Epilepsy: The Status of the Association
http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/con ... /155/3/325

THE REAL EMILY ROSE
http://www.fotofetch.com/