DWilly @ Fri Nov 04, 2005 12:15 pm wrote:Kat @ Fri Nov 04, 2005 3:55 am wrote:Finally, I don't think Andrew had a "right" to think he was going to go unchallenged in his home.
--DWilly
I'm referring to legal rights under the law. Not moral or ethical imperatives. The more one studies the time period, the more one realizes that it is very hard for us, as moderns, to get inside the heads of these 19th century characters.
In a court of law Andrew could have expected not to be challenged by his mere daughters. His "property" as you pointed out but, at home he did not enjoy that right. This was Fall River not Rome and women had been challenging men at home for years. Back during the American Revolution Abigail Adams wrote to her husband John telling him to " remember the ladies." That of course expressed her disagreement with the men folk on women's rights to vote. So, Andrew had no right to think he had an "entitlement" to a peaceful home. To quote Nancie, boo hoo Andrew.
As for blaming Andrew on his attitudes well, people were starting to question how things were run and Andrew again had no right to think that wasn't going to happen in his own home. To bad if he wasn't ready for it. Again, boo hoo Andrew.
Now, let's keep in mind that Andrew chose to get married and have a family. He didn't have to. If he didn't want daughters he shouldn't have gotten married. He took on the responsibility. Granted, he probably wanted a son but hey, life didn't promise him one. So again, boo hoo Andrew. He had daughters so he was stuck with them. And keep in mind, if they were overly dependent on his money it's because men like him KEPT women dependent.
Finally, I still think Andrew contributed in many ways to the problems in his household. I still haven't seen any proof he tried to set things up for his family in case he died. Even though he was 70 years old. Could it be he couldn't stand the thought of others having control of his "money?"
Maybe it's possible that he did not talk of making a will, but had made one and never mentioned it to either Lizzie or Emma. I can see why he wouldn't want to bring it up if he had. I think talk of a will and distribution of his assets after his death would've made that house a war zone. This would be especially true since Andrew was a man who made up his mind and was not easily swayed from his path. Look at what happened with the half house put into Abby's name. The girls stopped taking meals with the elder Borden's, Lizzie stopped calling her mother, she was heard to call her a "mean old thing" all over one half of a house. That was probably minor compared to the head aches he would expect to suffer from trying to make a will and divide up
everything. I'm sure he knew that would get Emma and Lizzie even more riled up, especially with Abby.
I think even talking about making a will and leaving anything to Abby could've precipitated the murders. Lizzie might have believed he was going to leave Abby more than her fair share. In my opinion, Abby did not have a fair share in their eyes, so anything Andrew 'threatened' to leave her would've been met with opposition.
I think Lizzie and Emma's hatred of Abby, and need to do things just to spite her, played a role in Andrew either not making a will, or not telling them he did. These are some of the comments in
The Witness Statements which describe what the atmosphere of that household was already like.
The Witness Statements page 10-11:
Elle M Gifford. no 38 Franklin Street. " I know nothing personally of the domestic relations of the Borden family; but I have heard much rumor to the effect that they did not get along very pleasantly."
Mrs. Perry Gifford. " We do sewing for the Borden family. I have heard Lizzie say harsh things of her stepmother. She said she did not and would not dine at the same table. She also said she ( Her step-mother) was a horrid old thing. she was very pronounced and out-spoken when referring to Mrs. Borden. This occured last April."
Miss Ida Gray, No. 27 Whipple Street. Last Friday evening Aug. 5, while on the horse car, two ladies were talking of Lizzie Borden. One remarked that Lizzie said, when referring to Mrs. Borden, that " she was one of the kind that never die." Who the ladies were, she did not know.
All this from these three ladies was given very reluctantly, and not until they were forced quite hard.
Hiram Harrington. " When the perpetrator of this foul deed is found, it will be one of the household. I had a long talk with Lizzie yesterday, Thursday, the day of the murder, and I am not at all satisfied with statements or demeanor. She was too solicitous about his comfort, and showed a side of character I never knew or even suspected her to possess. She helped him off with one coat and on with another, and assisted him in an easy incline on the sofa, and desired to place an afghan over him, and also to adjust the shutters so the light would not disturb his slumber. This is something she could not do, even if she felt; and no one who knows her, could be made believe it. She is very strong willed, and will fight for what she considers her rights......"
page 12-13:
We then went to Mrs. Geo. Whitehead, on Fourth Street. She said "this property was owned in part by me and my mother. My mother wished to dispose of her interest. I could not purchase it, and did not want to sell ; so in order that I might keep my place, Mrs. Borden, my step sister, bought the other interest. This the girls did not like; they showed their feeling on the street by not recognizing me. Lizzie did not like Mrs. Borden."
page 17:
Harrington. Visited Mrs. Jane Gray, Mrs. Borden's step mother. Her statement. "Things were not as pleasant at the Borden house as they might be. That is the reason I did not call at the Borden house as often as I would have liked to. I told Mrs. Borden I would not change places with her for all her money. What I know about them is all hearsay. Mrs. Borden was a very close mouthed woman. She would bear a great deal, and say nothing. She told me she and the girls were allowed an equal montly allowance, but they had more out of it than I for I had to furnish the table coverings, towelling, and other small things for the house out of mine."
Page 18:
Sunday 21. Summoning witnesses, Bestcome A. Chase and wife of 199 Second Street. Their Statement. Understood from general talk the girls and Mrs. Borden did not get along very pleasantly. Never heard Mrs. Borden say anything about the family relations. Her allowance was about $200. a year; but much of it was spent on articles for the house. The lace curtains in the parlour she purchased. The girls got the same amount as she, but it was for their own use. A short time ago Mrs. Borden, for the first time, told me of the robbery, which took place about a year ago. She simply mentioned it, and said she would tell me about it some other time.
page 31:
Fall River, August 8, 1892.
Paid a visit to Mrs. Cyrus W. Tripp at her home in Westport on August 7, 1892. In reply to my questions she made the following statement. " Lizzie told me she thought her stepmother was deceitful, being one thing to her face, and another to her back. Lizzie told me her stepmother claimed not to have any influence with her father. But she must have influence with her father, or he would never have given my stepmother's half sister such a very large sum of money. She said, I do not know that my sister or I would get anything in the event of my father's death. This conversation took place at different times during our former visits; nothing being said on her visit of July 26th.
"He who cannot put his thoughts on ice should not enter into the head of dispute." - Friedrich Nietzsche
