Emma's Beaus?

sguthmann · Post by **sguthmann** » Fri Dec 02, 2005 7:27 pm

Did Emma ever have any documented beaus? Credible ones, I mean? If so, can you refer me to sources?

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sat Dec 03, 2005 2:30 am

Nope, Nada, Zilch.
If I come across anything in the future- will let you know.
She did seem to live with, and follow around, her cousin Gardner, who was married.

augusta · Post by **augusta** » Sun Dec 04, 2005 6:46 pm

Not much is known about Emma. Like Kat, I've never seen any reference to her having a beau. I always thought she must have been shy and retiring, but when you read her trial testimony, she sure doesn't sound it. I have read that she had black dresses made when Lizzie had many blue ones. I wonder if Emma was mourning her mother perhaps? Or wanted to be really unnoticeable? I was surprised to learn that it was Emma who wanted to switch bedrooms. And that it was Emma who disliked Abby more than Lizzie.

FairhavenGuy · Post by **FairhavenGuy** » Sun Dec 04, 2005 6:57 pm

Until the murders, it was Emma's intent to spend the summer in Fairhaven with Helen Brownell, a single woman in her fifties, and three other people who were all in their seventies (Helen's mother, uncle and aunt).

Not exactly the wild social life.

augusta · Post by **augusta** » Sun Dec 04, 2005 11:21 pm

The Brownells weren't related to Emma, were they? I heard or read not too long ago that they were. If they were not related, how did Emma come to know them?

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Mon Dec 05, 2005 3:40 am

I think we figured out a Brownell back in the Borden genealogy somewhere around here.
But how Emma knew her is a good question. Rebello, 83 says Helen was listed as a dressmaker 1893-1896, Fairhaven.
Maybe having a friend who is a dressmaker back then was the equivalent now of knowing an electrician or auto mechanic?

Lizzie was very close to hers...

FairhavenGuy · Post by **FairhavenGuy** » Mon Dec 05, 2005 8:56 am

Emma says in her testimony that the Brownells were not related.

The question may have been asked because some early news reports incorrectly stated that Emma was visiting relatives in Fairhaven.

If they were related a number of generations back, it wasn't close enough for the relationship to have meant much on a practical level.

Helen Mar Brownell was the daughter of Rebecca (Delano) Brownell and Capt. Allen Brownell (who died in 1884).

Rebecca (Delano) Brownell and her brother Moses Delano were both born in Rochester. They were children of Joshua and Eunice (Ellis) Delano. (At that time "Rochester" could have been present-day Rochester or Mattapoisett or Marion.)

The house in Fairhaven belonged to Moses Delano, who lived there with his wife Amanda, his widowed sister Rebecca and his niece Helen.

DWilly · Post by **DWilly** » Mon Dec 05, 2005 1:45 pm

augusta @ Sun Dec 04, 2005 7:46 pm wrote:Not much is known about Emma. Like Kat, I've never seen any reference to her having a beau. I always thought she must have been shy and retiring, but when you read her trial testimony, she sure doesn't sound it. I have read that she had black dresses made when Lizzie had many blue ones. I wonder if Emma was mourning her mother perhaps? Or wanted to be really unnoticeable? I was surprised to learn that it was Emma who wanted to switch bedrooms. And that it was Emma who disliked Abby more than Lizzie.

I don't think Emma ever really got over her mother's death. It's as if Emma just stopped living. And of course she never warmed to Abby. It must have killed Emma to think Andrew could love another woman.

augusta · Post by **augusta** » Mon Dec 05, 2005 7:05 pm

Interesting posts, Kat and Fairhaven Guy! So a Brownell way back in the family.

That makes perfect sense, F.G. I have heard she was visiting "relatives" and I've also heard that they were "friends".

Thanks for posting the Brownell genealogy. So many Delanos in that area! I've been to Rochester. I was there on business, and didn't get a chance to look around much, but what I did see of it was charming. I have a book called "Vital Records of Rochester, Mass. from 1850 - 1910 - Births, Marriages and Deaths". It was published by the Rochester Historical Society in 2000. Haven't spotted a whole lot of people we "know" in it, but it's interesting just to leaf thru. I wish Fall River put out something like this - an inexpensive copy arranged in categories that you can keep at home to study. We'd have a field day!

DWilly - I totally agree with your post. "It's as if Emma just stopped living"... That's an excellent way to put it. Hmmm ... It does appear that Emma kept to her deathbed promise to her mother to 'take care of baby Lizzie'. We've been saying for quite a while that Emma was probably jealous of Abby, coming in - a virtual stranger - and taking over as the Mother.

How about this? When Emma lived at Maplecroft with Lizzie, perhaps Emma was still trying to take care of 'baby Lizzie'. Perhaps her mothering and maybe smothering Lizzie was part of the reason Emma left in 1905.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Mon Dec 05, 2005 8:22 pm

I don't see why it couldn't be something hidden in Emma's character which drove her out of French Street- I mean she never said it was Lizbeth why she left.
It could have been the two of them- toxic when together, too.
It's probably more like the 'folie a deux'- tho- because Emma kept her acquaintances and lived with people after leaving. We would have heard if Emma was crazy.
But Lizbeth lived with servants ever after. They would be paid- and thus keep secrets?

john · Post by **john** » Mon Dec 05, 2005 10:26 pm

If you look at Lizzie objectively, she shows a lot of signs of being an alcoholic, and her drinking alone could have eventually driven her sister away from her.

john · Post by **john** » Mon Dec 05, 2005 10:32 pm

Oh, and I forgot to mention, THE TROJANS ARE BACK!

sguthmann · Post by **sguthmann** » Mon Dec 05, 2005 11:06 pm

I just find it very odd that there is no mention of a beau someplace in Emma's lifetime. Even Lizzie had some would-be suitors.

Two well-mannered "proper" girls with a respectable family history and local ties, who also were set to inherit a good deal of money by anyone's standards...I think it's odd that they were not more actively and publicly pursued by several suitors. No offense to gals or gents, but as we know, money alone is often reason enough for people to pursue others.

Re: the falling out between the sisters - Emma never came out and said plainly what her reasons were for leaving Lizzie and Maplecroft, but even without any specific accusations, her comments seem to be pretty pointed that Lizzie was the reason for her leaving. That's what I get from her comments, at least.

john · Post by **john** » Mon Dec 05, 2005 11:53 pm

What are the points that Lizzie was alcoholic and not drug addicted?
She was before and always after the crimes reclusive.
She was weighty.
She seems to have had mood swings - didn't even show herself to her blessed Uncle John, yet was supposedly ready the next day to go fishing with friends.
She frittered for fishing equipment when all reports show she could have just asked her father for a couple bucks if she needed it and bought new equipment.
She was a churchie, not in the good sense I don't think, but as a cover for herself, as was seen by the congregation's abandoning her after the bad act.
She may have been a lesbian, and at least had lesbian friends, which is an unusual action most often brought on by an alcoholic bout, and maintained by varying degrees in women, and homosexuality is the same thing to men.
Eventually her only acquaintances were her workers whom she bought or animals.
Though rich, she died alone - the only people who cared about her were those that hoped to get money.
Emma had friends that didn't consider themselves friends of Lizzie.
Lizzie wasn't smart enough to pull off a perfect crime, but somebody was smart enough, has that ever been considered here?
Do you think Lizzie would know or care or consider when the policeman's picnic was? Do you think Lizzie alone could keep Dr. Dolan near her house on that day so he could be first in - maybe.
Do you think Lizzie knew anything at all about what Bridget did? - maybe.
Do you think Lizzie knew enough to go outside so that she would be seen there - maybe - but then how would she have enough time for the killering and the clean up?
Do you think Lizzie wanted to kill her Father?
Do you think Lizzie would whack her Father?
Who would care if both Abby and Andrew were dead?
Lizzie had been hangin' for many years and didn't seem really in need. Was she the one who needed large cash and knew she would do a year? Would you do a year for a million dollars?
That's the key. After the crime Lizzie knew she'd do time and she couldn't snitch or she'd hang! The mystery is who couldn't she snitch on?

snokkums · Post by **snokkums** » Tue Dec 06, 2005 6:13 am

I think it would be something to look into. Maybe she was one of those types of people that she just didn't talk to much about her comings and goings.

sguthmann · Post by **sguthmann** » Tue Dec 06, 2005 7:34 pm

i'm not sure what all that has to do with emma not having had beaus in her life?

as for lizzie being a drug addict or an alcoholic, any of the points i've ever seen mentioned to support such theories are reaches at best. and john, i always enjoy reading your posts, but for the life of me i cannot connect the dots on your theory regarding the big picture. i don't suppose you could just spell it out for us, eh?

john · Post by **john** » Tue Dec 06, 2005 11:00 pm

Sure squthmann.
Connect the dots doesn't work with Lizzie.
Here's why -
When I was in college I did an independent research study on the Mayan heiroglyphics. The "glyphs" had been studied for years and the intelligencia was baffled by why they couldn't be interpreted. In their mind there were two factors (simplified here) both that were known. The writing was known - hey we had it in stone - and the Mayan language was known. Consequentially the "glyphs," or any form of code, would eventually be decipherable. Well, to make a long story short, the "glyphs" weren't.
I simply looked at an overview of this problem, and noticed that the "glyphs" changed once there was Spanish intervention. Now they were a structured people and their priesthood wouldn't consider "junk glyphs," and the priesthood controlled. It would be akin to Eminem being elected President here - hey watch out it could happen. So that change had to be a language change - the introduction of some Spanish. And Spanish did start being used by the populus, but only stabbily by the priesthood, and that's what gave me the key. The priests or leaders were speaking another language than the populus, similar to the Catholic use of Latin.
Wow - then the "glyphs" could never be deciphered, and they never have because the language of the priesthood was lost.
Anyway I spent about two hours on the project and dragged it out for a couple years, and wrote it up and it was considered "brilliant," but it's the same simple problem as Lizzie.
There is something we don't know in the equation, and we're trying to connect dots with things that aren't dots.
To my mind I know what happened, but nobody ever confessed to the crime, and so it will always be just a guess.
This forum is a wonderfull thing, and you'll notice how the interest in Mayan Heiroglyphics has gone far down since I published my paper - this forum is a wonderfull place.

john · Post by **john** » Tue Dec 06, 2005 11:35 pm

There are several "keys" to the Borden case that have never been discovered. I'll help you find them if you like sguthmann - they mean nothing to me.

theebmonique · Post by **theebmonique** » Tue Dec 06, 2005 11:43 pm

Ahhhhhhh.....those keys....beware the jabberwock.

Tracy...

john · Post by **john** » Wed Dec 07, 2005 1:04 am

I think the line is "beware the jabberwalk, my friend."
I'll help anyone find the missing keys, but what I'm trying to say is that the missing keys are only the solution to the "known" problem, and the problem is really unknown. It's bogus from the very beginning, yet it's looked at as a natural happenstance.
Take Abby for example getting hit in the face yet not screaming. Bogus.
So then Abby is the Jabberwalk that doesn't jabber and doesn't walk and doesn't make sense.
Take Andrew for example. Why wouldn't his crime scene not be investigated and noted? Tracy warns us of the Jabberwalk - I warn us of Pogo - "beware the enemy, and they is us!"

theebmonique · Post by **theebmonique** » Wed Dec 07, 2005 1:20 am

*edit*

john · Post by **john** » Wed Dec 07, 2005 1:47 am

what does *edit* mean?

sguthmann · Post by **sguthmann** » Wed Dec 07, 2005 7:24 pm

john, i'd love to read your paper re: the maya - seriously. so I must know, do you truly find your general methodology to be universal enough to apply to the Borden Murders and come up with the elusive "x?" how does one go about uncovering the unknown? I'd be most interested in learning what you consider some of the "keys" to solving such an equation. The whole "beaus issue" doesn't happen to be one of them, does it?

john · Post by **john** » Wed Dec 07, 2005 8:51 pm

No, Squthmann.
I've tried to let on when someone was getting close but they havn't caught it. I'll tell you some things in PM then you can be the guy they hate - tag off - long live Fall River, long live Lizzie.
Initially I fell in love with her when I read a book my mother had that showed she couldn't have done it and was ostracized. I wound up doing a lot of support for the Fall River ARL, and there is, or was (I have a picture showing it) of my name and Lizzie Borden's name on it. I havn't been there in a while, yet it might still be there. Those were in my thicker crops times, and I havn't contributed in a while.
If you are young, Squthmann, I'll give you one piece of advice - beware of women. If you're old it's probably too late. Every problem that is major in our society can be directly graphed by the number of woman drivers. Now someone will immediately say what about the civil war, for example, and look at who was mostly behind rights of slaves - women. I'm not saying that something is right or wrong, it just interests me, and especially where there is proof.
So I tag off, Squthmann, and I'll just comment - you notice Harry never gets into trouble.

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Wed Dec 07, 2005 9:02 pm

What is your problem with me, John?

john · Post by **john** » Wed Dec 07, 2005 9:13 pm

I believe I've shown only respect for you, Harry, and if you think not I'm certainly sorry, but would like to see it!
So bring it up where I have shown disrespect for you.

john · Post by **john** » Wed Dec 07, 2005 9:20 pm

As an interesting aside, the guy I did the independent study on Mayan Glyphs with was a nice guy, but he worked on the project for about two minutes - barely glanced at it. I thought he would need the credits because he was v down - the mob had just killed his brother in Hawaii because of some funky money deal. So I'm not sure what happened to those guys, but they were "stay away" peoples.

augusta · Post by **augusta** » Thu Dec 08, 2005 2:26 am

Kat - If Emma did not leave Maplecroft because of Lizzie, I don't think the sisters would have never spoken to one another again. With the information we have, it looks like Emma was angry because she fired Tetrault and Lizzie re-hired him. Was he a 'ladies man'? Emma was not a "man's lady".

What suitors did Lizzie have? There was a guy who wrote her after she was incarcerated and wanted to see her, and she told Jennings she couldn't stand him and Jennings wrote a note to the guy that told him to get lost. The only male I heard of her going anywhere with was when Dr. Bowen escorted her to church. But admittedly, I am not up on my David Anthony reading.

Is it proven that Lizzie had 'mood swings'? I am under the impression that that was just her personality - sometimes she had a temper like her mother.

She may have had something like clinical depression. It is most telling when she speaks to Alice Russell on August 3rd about how sometimes something will come over her and she can't shake it, and her friends try to get her to be herself again. Also an anxiety condition could cause her to take a "time out" and stare into space for a little while. While living in Maplecroft, she asked her neighbor to keep his bird quiet and said she was a nervous person.

True, Lizzie did lose some of her old friends after the trial. The Holmes family and Covells remained her friend, and she visited them in Newport at times. She was the talk of Fall River - in hushed voices. But she had friends and was not a recluse. She travelled abroad. She went for rides first in her pony cart and carriage, then later in her car(s). She enjoyed visiting Boston and Washington D.C. She would not visit the stores in Fall River, tho, other than what one writer said was twice. She was a good friend of a neighbor who lived near Maplecroft. I think the recluse/unhappy Lizzie was more a myth because that's how her story could end on a dramatic note.

The only time Emma was said to go out after she left Maplecroft was twice a year, to get her fur coat cleaned and to get it out (or put it in) storage. She did not want to be found, it seems. I have serious doubts that she gave that newspaper interview in 1913. But then, I was surprised at how she seemed to testify in court without any seeming difficulty. I think she was very strange - more so than Lizzie.

I don't believe Lizzie only did church work for appearance's sake. She probably did get so involved in church work to broaden her social circle. There she worked with some of the cream of FR society. It was about the only way she could meet FR society and rub elbows with them. I think she enjoyed doing good works, too, tho. And it was healthy for her to do, being so repressed in the social status she could have enjoyed, if Andrew had not been so cheap. In that era, that was one of the few acceptable things a single, wealthy lady could do. After she stopped going to her church, she was known all her life to do many good things for people and animals.

Oh - she was not planning on going fishing on Friday, August 5th. She was planning on going on Monday the 8th. Many of her girlfriends were already at Dr. Handy's cottage in Marion. But Lizzie opted to stay home so she could be at church on that Sunday, as she had just taken on the secretaryship of something in church and thought she should be there for the first meeting.

john · Post by **john** » Thu Dec 08, 2005 3:30 pm

Well, Agusta, nice try. Aside from the fact that riding in a pony cart is not exactly socializing, there are just a few other things to remember. I said that I thought she was alcoholic or drug addicted, and asocial is simply an aside of that problem. She certainly could be asocial without having the problem of alcoholism or drug abuse, so lets say she didn't have the physical problems and what does she look like? She doesn't really look particurlarly strange - pretty normal actually. I think that because of the only behavior about her which is noted, she seems strange. The fishing thing is just glossed over by everyone, and I think she just had nothing to do. So you conclude - and this is important - if on the morning she supposedly killed her parents she's thinking multiple times of fishing, how guilty can she be? Partially? If a good day fishing is better than a bad day killing your stepmother can be her bumper sticker - you've created someone too illogical to exist. The crimes were horiffic, yet everyone assumes she had the spunk to do them, and that's my problem with this room. To even imagine that a young woman could chop her "Mother" and Father up with a hatchet is totally beyond belief. Yet there are people sitting here reading all this stuff who believe that.
Well, if we're playing connect the dots we have to go back to square one in my mind, and progress somewhere else, and these people have never done this - not only have they never done it - they've never even considered doing it - look at the posts that harry or btk? (what'shisname) made about the possibility of the two elder bordens being killed at more the same time. If you're truly analyzing this crime, that's a factor which should be filtered in, yet it was just glossed over.
And considering dreams as a part of solving this is fun but it has nothing to do with anything.
I'd like to give this case to the ostracized detective from the OJ case, Mark Fuhrman, and see what he thinks of it.
But you want to know a little secret as to what he would say? Not enough information.
Look at what they're doing with Lindbergh now - there are many people involved who weren't even mentioned in the trial proceedings.
Beware the jabberwalk - for he may tell you something that you don't want to know.

Smudgeman · Post by **Smudgeman** » Thu Dec 08, 2005 3:58 pm

John,

I have a suggestion. If you have a theory as to what happened that fatefull day, then why don't you post it? All this talking in riddles, rhymes, "clews", etc. is annoying. I am sure you have some interesting points to make, but you dance around them. Why not simply state your position, and then see what the others have to say about it?

weber · Post by **weber** » Fri Dec 09, 2005 8:30 am

My feelings exactly. It is very annoying..."I'll pm Squthmann" and he can tell you. And
"If you are young, Squthmann, I'll give you one piece of advice - beware of women. If you're old it's probably too late. Every problem that is major in our society can be directly graphed by the number of woman drivers. Now someone will immediately say what about the civil war, for example, and look at who was mostly behind rights of slaves - women."

What a bunch of malarky! And some of it is downright scary!

john · Post by **john** » Sat Dec 10, 2005 2:43 am

Well thanks Weber, and ya I am scary.
I was in a karate class with my kids a long time ago and I yelled in the face of two blacks (Tai Kwan Do) and they both fell over.
The incidence of women drivers is correct though, and what's scary there shouldn't be me.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sat Dec 10, 2005 5:36 pm

Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2005 2:26 am Post subject:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Kat - If Emma did not leave Maplecroft because of Lizzie, I don't think the sisters would have never spoken to one another again.

-- Augusta

My point includes that maybe it was Lizzie who never wanted to speak to Emma again- because it was Emma who was acting out and hard to live with and making life intolerable in that house. It's just a backwards way of looking at the situation.

john · Post by **john** » Sat Dec 10, 2005 6:31 pm

None, Harry.

john · Post by **john** » Sat Dec 10, 2005 6:45 pm

No I won't tell you what I think happened - you're all closer to finding out how soft the cinnamon rolls at the B&B are than to solving anything, and for me to really tell you anything would be sacralidge.
That includes everyone on here except for Allen who I feel is sincere.
Just as an aside, I think it would be more interesting to find out who the writer of that 'long dream' post was than to find out who killed the Bordens.

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Sat Dec 10, 2005 7:02 pm

John, I would be very interested to know what you think happened.

john · Post by **john** » Sat Dec 10, 2005 8:36 pm

I love the way you type Allen.

john · Post by **john** » Sat Dec 10, 2005 8:37 pm

Do you know any other "Macbeth" quotes?

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Sat Dec 10, 2005 11:46 pm

Any excuse to quote Shakespeare

:

Things without all remedy should be without regard: what's done is done.

If you can look into the seeds of time, And say which grain will grow and which will not.

There ’s no art , To find the mind’s construction in the face.

The attempt and not the deed, Confounds us.

Double, double toil and trouble; Fire burn, and cauldron bubble.

By the pricking of my thumbs,Something wicked this way comes. Open, locks, Whoever knocks!

When our actions do not, Our fears do make us traitors.

False face must hide what the false heart doth know.

I dare do all that may become a man; Who dares do more is none.

doug65oh · Post by **doug65oh** » Sat Dec 10, 2005 11:58 pm

Tomorrow, and tomorrow, and tomorrow...
Creeps in this petty pace from day to day
To the last syllable of recorded time.
And all our yesterdays have lighted fools
The way to dusty Death.
Out, out brief candle!
Life is but a walking shadow - a poor player
That struts and frets his Hour upon the
stage, then is heard no more.
It is a tale told by an Idiot,
Full of sound and Fury -
Signifying nothing.

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Sun Dec 11, 2005 12:16 am

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sun Dec 11, 2005 3:01 am

Loved Loved Loved your piece in the recent Hatchet Doug-Oh!!!

doug65oh · Post by **doug65oh** » Sun Dec 11, 2005 12:47 pm

Thanks!

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sun Dec 11, 2005 6:34 pm

"Notes From The Compositor's Bench"- buy it now!!!

john · Post by **john** » Sun Dec 11, 2005 10:18 pm

Hi Allen!

john · Post by **john** » Sun Dec 11, 2005 10:24 pm

Well not many people respond anymore to Shakespeare, but I had an English teacher who said people who were drinking would quote him endlessly ( correct or not ) to her.
You add color Allen - you know!

sguthmann · Post by **sguthmann** » Sun Dec 11, 2005 11:46 pm

i wonder what led to Emma being sent to finishing school in Chicago? Surely there must have been any number of quality finishing schools back east and nearer to her home in Fall River? Anyone have any info or ideas?

john · Post by **john** » Sun Dec 11, 2005 11:59 pm

Is Macbeth the one we should enamor, or his wife?
I kinda favor Macduff - especially for longevity.

john · Post by **john** » Mon Dec 12, 2005 12:06 am

I lived in Minneapolis in high density apartments, and this girl I was kinda with lived next door, and she had this little dog that I named spot, and every morning I would open the back door to the place, and yell, "out out damned spot," and so on!

john · Post by **john** » Mon Dec 12, 2005 12:35 am

So will it be the Colts and the Trojans now Harry for the world championship?