Emma's Beaus?

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Mon Dec 12, 2005 3:59 am

sguthmann @ Sun Dec 11, 2005 11:46 pm wrote:i wonder what led to Emma being sent to finishing school in Chicago? Surely there must have been any number of quality finishing schools back east and nearer to her home in Fall River? Anyone have any info or ideas?

We've theorized it was Chicago, but I have heard Fall River people say it probably was in New England- they've even named me a few which were popular in those times. Would you call it a finishing school at age 15 or 16 or 17?

sguthmann · Post by **sguthmann** » Mon Dec 12, 2005 6:33 pm

that would make more sense if she went east, but i was thinking I'd read somewhere that it she had gone to Chicago for "finishing school" (not my characterization, but what i remember reading) I'll try and pinpoint where I saw it.

So then, what led the family Borden - including Lizzie - out to Chicago for a time (and how long were they there?)? Anyone?

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Mon Dec 12, 2005 9:20 pm

You read about it here. We theorized it was Chicago.

My story called "The Visit," in the latest Hatchet (December4'05), gives a possible scenario about that Chicago trip, based on gleanings and tidbits from here and there I collected.

sguthmann · Post by **sguthmann** » Tue Dec 13, 2005 7:01 pm

no, i know i read it elsewhere.

so were you able to account for the time the family spent in Chicago, and what it was all about? sorry, i'm not yet a subscriber to the Hatchet. can you give me a run down?

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Tue Dec 13, 2005 11:54 pm

We may have discussed that possibility of Emma doing her *time* in Chicago at Arborwood, the Forum of Stef's previous to this one.
I've not seen that speculation elsewhere.

john · Post by **john** » Wed Dec 14, 2005 5:37 am

So what if she did? What if Emma was a world traveler, and even visited Newark? Does that mean absolutely anything?
Are you people trying to solve this crime, or establish geneological credentials for yourselves?

DWilly · Post by **DWilly** » Wed Dec 14, 2005 1:29 pm

Kat @ Wed Dec 14, 2005 12:54 am wrote:We may have discussed that possibility of Emma doing her *time* in Chicago at Arborwood, the Forum of Stef's previous to this one.
I've not seen that speculation elsewhere.

Didn't a lot of this speculation come from Emma testifying in court that she had gone away to school? I was under the impression it was more of a religious type of school than what I would call a finishing school. I thought finishing school was sort of a place where a young woman learned to be a lady?

My own theory on this school thing is that Emma got sent away because she became too difficult for Abby to handle. I wonder if there was some major incident that happened that led to Emma going away? Like hauling off and hitting Abby or something.

sguthmann · Post by **sguthmann** » Wed Dec 14, 2005 7:20 pm

im not sure who the wes referenced are, but I sure would like to know the general result of the research, if I may? what did you find the family Borden to be doing in Chicago? did it have to do with Emma soley, or were there other reasons for A & A and L to travel there as well? And how long did they stay?

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Thu Dec 15, 2005 3:04 am

"WE" is me and probably Harry and William and Susan and...(?)
Maybe Susan can find an old topic where we wondered if Emma was brought to Chicago and left there to go to school because her uncle Morse lived in the state.

The Chicago trip I wrote about starts with Rebello, pg. 10.

It's my theory and it's speculation. I found several possible reasons for the visit during research, but which did not include finishing school, because of the date I chose, based on the ages of the girls and a period of time when Andrew was inactive in his local land transactions, and the convenience of the mode of transportation at that time.
I can't write it here because I wrote it for the magazine.

And yes, Emma testified to going away to school for a year and a half, but that's about it. No why or where or a definite when.
Inquest
107
Q. How old were you, as near as you can recollect, when your father married the second time?
A. Just a trifle over fourteen.
Q. So that you probably remember your Mother?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Have you lived at home most of the time?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. H ave you ever lived away from home?
A. I was away at school about a year and a half.
Q. That was sometime ago?
A. Yes Sir.

--It's usually assumed that Emma is speaking of a time after Andrew married Abby, mostly maybe because the question puts the answer there chronologically. And also maybe because that was probably about the age girls were sent away.

Susan · Post by **Susan** » Thu Dec 15, 2005 4:37 am

I found this one where we had a thread going about the Chicago trip.

http://www.lizzieandrewborden.com/Archi ... hicago.htm

And this one about Lizzie's trip to Chicago for the World's Fair:

http://www.lizzieandrewborden.com/Archi ... TClose.htm

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Thu Dec 15, 2005 10:19 am

Has anyone even checked as to what types of schools were even in Chicago at the time that Emma may have possibly been sent away to school? Because if she was merely sent there to finish her education as she had started it in Fall River, at a regular school, I don't see much sense in having sent her there in the first place.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Thu Dec 15, 2005 11:16 pm

Wow Susan you are SOOO good at that! Thanks!
There's the discussion, Sguthmann, and my moment, suspended in time, where I made up that Emma may have gone to school in Illinois, or Chicago...
Of course, it was all of our contributions and flow of conversation which leads to such things.

Allen, I've talked to MM at the FRHS and with Len Rebello and they seem to both think that Emma had her year and a half away at a New England finishing type school. I don't know what the terminology is (girl's school- seminary?)- what it would be called exactly, but they have their own most popular candidates for a school which would have been popular at the time. So I tend to believe that's where to look. I think some casual checking has already been done in records. I don't think all the school records survived.
Sorry I can't be more helpful. Anyone may call the archive at the FRHS and inquire- probably when they re-open after the Holidays- March/April?

john · Post by **john** » Sun Jan 01, 2006 7:55 am

Maybe she (Emma) was PG and sent away to have the baby. That was a common practice in those days, and still to some extent now. Ask Susan.
Can we ask Susan lovelorn questions?
Like my recent one - Dear Susan, I met this Indian girl, and we were super friendly for a night, but apparently she gave me the wrong phone number, or the one she gave me isn't completed yet, because the one she gave me doesn't work for her. Should I try to find her (she'd be about 800 miles away - met her at a casino) or forget her, or keep trying that phone number because the phone company messages sound like it could be a number that was going to connect soon - I could be her first phone call!

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sun Jan 01, 2006 10:48 pm

This is odd. Do you even know Susan?
Please don't talk to her like that- it implies things of which she is not concerned.

If you wish to "advertise" you might get your own chat room.

sguthmann · Post by **sguthmann** » Sun Jan 01, 2006 11:02 pm

maybe it's the after effects of new years eve, but i'm reading all these posts, and I'm confused...so the whole AJ Borden family was thought to be living in/near Chicago for a time? does anyone know when and for how long? if Lizzie was enrolled in a Sunday school, it does seem to suggest that the family was there for a while? does anyone know where the family resided and what AJ Borden was doing while there?

john · Post by **john** » Sun Jan 01, 2006 11:08 pm

no sq - they say emma went away to school near chi - i said she was maybe pregnant and they sent her away - anyone's to judge

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sun Jan 01, 2006 11:21 pm

sguthmann @ Sun Jan 01, 2006 11:02 pm wrote:maybe it's the after effects of new years eve, but i'm reading all these posts, and I'm confused...so the whole AJ Borden family was thought to be living in/near Chicago for a time? does anyone know when and for how long? if Lizzie was enrolled in a Sunday school, it does seem to suggest that the family was there for a while? does anyone know where the family resided and what AJ Borden was doing while there?

In The Hatchet, issue June/July 2004, Vol. 1, Issue 3, there is an article called "The Elusive John Morse" by Joe Carlson.
It turns out that quite a few of the Morse family members moved west.
In the Girard area of Illinois (1850's-1870's) there would be John V., his father Anthony, his stepmother Hannah, their young daughters Arabella and Sarah, and his youngest 1/2 brother Fernando, who actually was in the Illinois Infantry in the Civil War. They were all Lizzie and Emma's Morse relatives.

There is proof that JVM had been to Chicago, and Cynthia had shown how the man he went there with was probably/possibly in the meat business.
If you look at a map you will see where Girard is in relation to Chicago.

As to what the Borden family may have been doing in Chicago, I already speculated in my article.
I can't go any farther here with that.
Hope this info is helpful.

We passed each other in posting- sorry.

sguthmann · Post by **sguthmann** » Sun Jan 01, 2006 11:24 pm

right john, and your PG theory is possible, but not just emma was there - according to Rebello, Lizzie was reportedly a very good "sunday school attendee" (or something to that effect) while living in chicago as a girl...i hardly think she was there on her own. so my question remains, when was the family there and what were they all doing?

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sun Jan 01, 2006 11:27 pm

I was editing my post while you were responding, we passed each other.

john · Post by **john** » Mon Jan 02, 2006 1:44 am

good question squthmann - you come up with the heavy ones!

john · Post by **john** » Mon Jan 02, 2006 1:47 am

This has never been introduced before sq - so we got a hit. Lets say Emma or Lizzie was PG and sent to Chicago - what does that do to upset their timetables?
john

john · Post by **john** » Mon Jan 02, 2006 1:51 am

and - did you see - sq - they're trying to flake it right away - watch!

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Mon Jan 02, 2006 2:49 am

We covered that subject over a year ago or more, so if you want to think we are avoiding it, you can think what you like.
Or anyone new to the idea can develope it- that's fine, go ahead.
But Lizzie was probably under the age of 10 while in Chicago that time, and probably wasn't PG and prepared to deliver in 1893 at the Chicago Exposition, being that she was in jail up until late June and the Fair closed in October.
Emma was a good age to deliver a babe at the time of the family visit, or around the time of her year and a half away.