Affection in Lizzie's Times

john · Post by **john** » Mon Dec 12, 2005 9:56 pm

Nope - I'm wrong - was another study and a video on "Prision Guards."

sguthmann · Post by **sguthmann** » Tue Dec 13, 2005 6:49 pm

john, you've yet to get my user name right either in public or private postings, so i think i'll go right on abbreviating to liz, thank you very much.

kat, i sense a prickle. i'm not trying to aruge with you about homosexuals or dispute your experiences with your friends (which i'm sorry to hear). i'm simply trying to share what i know, what psychologists might theorize. as for your stats from before, i simply was pointing out that 20th century industrial age society and norms are quite different from, say, post-sexual revolution 20th century society and norms. i think we must be careful with stats that we're comparing apples and apples, not apples and oranges.

and as an aside, isn't the purpose of this forum to be sharing opinions and info with one another?? not to practice bizarre power trips re: influence or information? I personally am not rankled when someone brings up something that contradicts what i've put out there, or when someone corrects my lizbeth borden information/misinformation. i realize it's not a personal reflection on me.

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Tue Dec 13, 2005 10:21 pm

Here are a few of the sites I've found that deal with Nineteenth century marriage, courting, and woman's place in society. I had a whole lot more but I went through and wittled them down until I had the ones I thought had the most helpful information. Some of these sites show different viewpoints than other's but I think that is a good thing. There are quite a few links with quite a bit of reading involved, so I am not thinking everyone is going to read everything on every link, but I find it all so fascinating I don't mind all the reading. ( Well I do mind the music on some of the sites, I turn my speakers down

)

Honor and Innocence in the 19th Century
http://www.louisville.edu/~arwoza01/cent.htm

INDEPENDENT WOMEN : WORK AND COMMUNITY FOR SINGLE WOMEN
http://www.worldreviews.com/BOOK0008_JAN2001.htm

Spinsters and Old Maids as Defined by the Victorian Age
http://www.umd.umich.edu/casl/hum/eng/c ... inster.htm

The Best Or None!" Spinsterhood In Nineteenth-Century New England
http://womenshistory.about.com/gi/dynam ... icle.jhtml

Women’s Roles in the Late 19th Century
http://www.connerprairie.org/HistoryOnline/1880wom.html

Something Borrowed Something Blue:
http://www.louisville.edu/a-s/history/pat/nuxigwen.htm

Gender Roles and Wedding Attire in Nineteenth-Century America
http://www.louisville.edu/a-s/history/pat/nuxigwen.htm

Dating in the Victorian Age: "The Unsuitable Suitor of 1879"
http://www.victoriana.com/library/suitor.html

A Local Victorian Lady's Proper Demeanor
http://www.concordma.com/magazine/winte ... nlady.html

Victorian Courtship
http://www.victoriaspast.com/Courtshipd ... dance.html

Essence of Victorian
http://victorian.fortunecity.com/eliot/177/index.html

john · Post by **john** » Tue Dec 13, 2005 10:40 pm

Allen - I noticed some Victorian things on there - do you have any Victoria's Secrets videos?

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Tue Dec 13, 2005 10:59 pm

No, I can't say that I do John.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Wed Dec 14, 2005 12:11 am

sguthmann @ Tue Dec 13, 2005 6:49 pm wrote:john, you've yet to get my user name right either in public or private postings, so i think i'll go right on abbreviating to liz, thank you very much.

kat, i sense a prickle. i'm not trying to aruge with you about homosexuals or dispute your experiences with your friends (which i'm sorry to hear). i'm simply trying to share what i know, what psychologists might theorize. as for your stats from before, i simply was pointing out that 20th century industrial age society and norms are quite different from, say, post-sexual revolution 20th century society and norms. i think we must be careful with stats that we're comparing apples and apples, not apples and oranges.

and as an aside, isn't the purpose of this forum to be sharing opinions and info with one another?? not to practice bizarre power trips re: influence or information? I personally am not rankled when someone brings up something that contradicts what i've put out there, or when someone corrects my lizbeth borden information/misinformation. i realize it's not a personal reflection on me.

I can't tell if your latter comments are directed to me, but I can say that I am looking for some truth - the same as anyone. I also knowingly admit I'm in over my head here in this *discussion* and did ask to be educated on this topic. I've also agreed with quite a few of your points, so I hope you don't think I'm on a *power trip*. I ask questions sincerely- because I really want to know. I don't think we're going to get the answers here tho.
As for comparing us and 19th century citizens- that absolutlly is apples and oranges. I've had many a long conversation over the fact that I doubt we will ever get inside the heads of those who lived in those days. It's like trying to unlearn something- we might get a bit close- but we will never know what it's like. And as a non-gay person, I cannot even begin to know what stressors society puts on those who are same-sex orientated, then or now- so I'm done on this topic. I'll ask my questions privately from now on.

Thanks for the links Allen- great research!

john · Post by **john** » Wed Dec 14, 2005 12:21 am

You're not looking for truth, Kat, you're looking for gay-junk or whatever will keep these discussions going. Then you bail - well I can understand that - but I don't like liars and look back to what you've said about the gay question for the last 6 months or so and don't tell us it's a newbie that you're suddenly shocked with! The gay question would bother me if I was gay, and it seems to bother you. So tell it like it is and don't suddenly dodge to pm! Junk people!

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Wed Dec 14, 2005 12:43 am

I'm not shocked- I'm looking for answers.
Ive been asking for answers on these questions when they come up- I have asked in life to my friends- I have asked in public here even if it embarrasses me to say I do not know these thigs. How can I know? I've asked to be educated. I know we have gay members, and I see if they do not choose to enter the discussion then it's not up to me to keep it going because there are not answers forthcoming.
DWilly has come closest to trying to explain things, and I do prefer discussing this topic with those who know what they're talking about.

You're baiting me john. It won't work.

And the suicides were gut-wrenchingly awful to those left behind- so there has been a lot of suffering.

john · Post by **john** » Wed Dec 14, 2005 1:04 am

I'm not baiting you - I'm not even sure what that means. But perhaps you should get matters back on track here. If it were a gay issue there probably wouldn't have been any murders - think. Look at Allen's post of 12/12.
It's more the issue of a spoiled child than a lunitic.
And how could a spoiled child turn to anything badly is the psychological slant, it wasn't an issus of was she strange - of course she was strange.
But I'm sure the house stunk, and her Father was weird, and there any number of issues that don't really answer who dropped the axe that morning.
I'm not going to apologize - I wonder aboyt people - especially journalists as yourself - who glorify or gloss the gay issue, especiaddly in such an instance as this when it was not like we know Andrew confronted Lizzie and Emma with their quierdom and sent Emma away - bogus upon bogus.
If anyone can show me any other evidence of Lizzie's being gay other than her enfactuation with Nance O'Neal, I'll consider it an issue, but I think Lizzie was just lonely and star struck or she would have been chasing chicks in Fall River and it certainly would have been wide open news.

john · Post by **john** » Wed Dec 14, 2005 1:08 am

darn - must notta paid my spelcheck bill!

DWilly · Post by **DWilly** » Wed Dec 14, 2005 12:11 pm

Thank you Allen for those links. I haven't read everything yet, but what I have read I have enjoyed. I especially liked "The Unsuitable Suitor of 1879" That made me think of the story about when Lizzie was in jail and that nutty preacher guy tried to get in touch with her claiming he was her lover. I think it was Jennings who then had to write a letter to the guy telling him to bug off. One of Lizzie's friends said the guy not only wasn't her lover but she could barely stand him. I wonder if when he was trying to romance her she sent him that letter called "Refusal on the grounds of dislike."

snokkums · Post by **snokkums** » Wed Dec 14, 2005 12:25 pm

When all is said and done, does it really matter that Lizzie was gay or not? Do you think that could have been reason for flipping out and killing her father and stepmother? I think not, unless "daddy dearest" found out that she was gay and threatened to cut her and Emma off.

Smudgeman · Post by **Smudgeman** » Wed Dec 14, 2005 7:29 pm

I think it is a VERY good reason to kill, if Lizzie was a Lesbian and was found out. Imagine if you were gay and didn't understand why you had these feelings, and had to hide and lie about who you really are, because you were afraid of what everybody else might think or do or say. Lying becomes quite natural, because you say what the others want to hear. I have some friends who "married" one another to keep the secret well, but they were both gay, and everything seems to be okay in the public eye. This was back in the 70's when the sexual revolution was young.

I guess what I am saying is that YES, the subject of Lizzie being a Lesbian or not is a worthy discussion. It speaks volumes.

sguthmann · Post by **sguthmann** » Wed Dec 14, 2005 7:58 pm

i agree that it holds as much merit for exploring as, say, if Lizzie was bi-polar or a drug addict, or a number other things that may have influenced her behavior. while we may never have direct proof or disproof, how can it not be at least considered? and even though there is not any direct proof, there certainly is a lot of "indirect" information out there to wonder about. i'm not hung up on Lizzie having to be gay, but I think it's an angle that can and should be explored.

here's my own personal summation on the whole issue:
i'm of the opinion that even IF she was gay, i don't think she acted upon it or consumated it. not even with nance. besides, it's perfectly natural for "straight" women -and men -to have an "infatuation" with someone of the same sex. i think that this is most likely what went on in Lizzie's case.

but lizzie's and emma's lack of beaus does surprise me (as i posted in the "Emma's Beaus" topic). it may speak to intimacy issues or problems dealing with their sexuality and their desires and fears and religion/morality to some extent. as many women of the victorian era, they may have had a lot of dissonence between their development as a sexual creature tempered with fitting the role of what a victorian woman was supposed to be like, do, want, need, etc. i also think a lot of lizzie's and emma's "man-issues" likely had to do with andrew. i'm not saying that incest was involved, but i am saying look at who was the one and only man in their lives - their father.

DWilly · Post by **DWilly** » Wed Dec 14, 2005 8:25 pm

I don't think Lizzie had any lovers male or female prior to the trial. After the trial I think things changed a bit. During the trial a number of both men and women took an interest in Lizzie. Even back then there were folks who found the infamous to be sexy. Lizzie even got marriage proposals while in jail. I read about that in the New York Times. She also had women sending her flowers. One woman who really stands out it The Mysterious Veiled Lady. Other wise known as Mrs. Elizabeth Annette Stockwell also known as the Lady from Worcester. She took a very strong interest in Lizzie. Now my little theory is Mrs. Stockwell became infatuated with Lizzie during the trial and afterward she may have shown Lizzie a little bit of tendering loving care

Anyway, I don't think Lizzie was a virgin by the time she met Nance. I'm not saying Lizzie was running all over Fall River chasing skirts. Just that she may have grown up a bit.

As for Nance, Lizzie was in her forties when she met Nance and Lizzie seemed not only infatuated with her but she was flat out trying to romance the woman. Which from what I have read so far she never did with a guy. Can't think of any actors she was chasing. Even though those Barrymore men were pretty good lookin fellas.

john · Post by **john** » Sat Dec 24, 2005 7:05 pm

The only times Lizzie made progress with Nance was when Nance needed money. Perhaps the relationship should be looked at more closely by those commenting, in spite of the fact that it would depict Lizzie more as gay. I'll resolve that and let everyone look more closely at the facts - I still think Lizzie was star-struck and lonely and rich!