could all the world have known this was coming down?

john · Post by **john** » Sat Aug 13, 2005 9:27 am

I want to see testimony, Kat, that Dr. Bowen sent his wife home. I don't believe it.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sat Aug 13, 2005 4:14 pm

Sure.
It is in Bowen's inquest testimony.
He himself left between 12:30 and 1 pm. I think he wanted his dinner.
Then he was apprised of the autopsy, and to return at 3 pm for that (Trial).

Inquest
119(26)
Q. When you came back from going down street, who did you find there besides those you named?
A. I named Mrs. Churchill and [Miss] Lizzie Borden, and Miss Russell and Bridget. Do you mean when I came back from up stairs?
Q. No, down town.
A. Whether Mr. Sawyer was there before I got back from down town, or directly after, I cannot tell myself. Mr. Charles Sawyer was there very near I think the time.
Q. Was he a neighbor?
A. No, I dont know where he does live, I have known him sometime.
Q. When you came down from up stairs, were more there?
A. Yes, my wife was there then. I told her to go right home.
Q. Had anybodyelse besides your wife come?
A. I could not swear to that.

_____

Prelim
405
Bowen

Q. Were you there later during the day?
A. I think I must have been until probably one o'clock, or half past 12; I wont say positive.
______

Trial
Bowen
Q. Were you present with Dr. Dolan when any autopsy or examination or official examination for the purpose of getting at the cause of death was made?

Page 324

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And did you take some notes for him?
A. I took notes in the morning, if you refer to that.

Q. Well, I ask if at any time?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. And you say you took notes in the morning, and you mean by morning before one o'clock or before twelve?
A. I mean about twelve.

Q. And those notes concerned which body?
A. Mrs. Borden's.

Q. When was the autopsy or official examination for the purpose of getting at the cause of death made on the body of Mr. Borden?
A. I had the telephone message to be there at 3 o'clock.

Q. Well, did you go?
A. I went a little late. It was a little after three when I went there.

Q. That same afternoon?
A. Same afternoon, yes, sir.
_______

--Could he have a phone or maybe a telephone answering/message service, because he mentions a phone message?
I wonder how that worked- if a small consortium of doctors used a message service rather than having individual phones?

john · Post by **john** » Sat Aug 13, 2005 8:19 pm

Well, you very sound correct, and writers certainly have this case ascrewed. I guess I don't normally think about eating much, and certainly in the face of a double homocide would skip lunch, but Dr. Bowen was different from me so it seems.
The other mentions I've read were that she smelled bad, and or, that Lizzie didn't want her around.
Relatives can control a crime scene, even more than police, and even today - look at the Ramsey case - and I suspected, and still do suspect that that's a lot of the afterthefact happenings at Borden.
But could Dr. Bowen have been lying about sending his wife home? Are there other references to her leaving? It seems to me that Mrs. Churchill was the one who said Lizzie sent Mrs. Bowen away.
Did Dr. Bowen not want his wife around when he was near Lizzie?
Did Lizzie and Dr. Bowen do the bump?

Haulover · Post by **Haulover** » Sat Aug 13, 2005 9:48 pm

***It's easy to say that Dr. Bowen just was "out of it" when he saw the bodies, but that doesn't really make sense since none of the "normal - not Doctors" people around were insensible. So Doctor bowen, if he errs, it is because he is calculating. So now we've caught Dr. Bowen in a clear lie. ***

i guess i don't understand the relevance. bowen thought he could gain something or cover up something by lying to those present in the house at the time? he was too dense to know the bodies would be examined? or his ego was so huge he thought he could just bring the whole investigation to a close right then and there with his word?

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sat Aug 13, 2005 9:57 pm

I'm only imagining that Bowen wanted his dinner. I can't back that up.
I do see a common thread which is that people's lives went on after the tragedy, if off by a half hour or so. Mrs. Emery had to go buy dinner after Morse left (admittedly she had yet to find out about the murders), Mrs. Churchill went home as she had mouths to feed and housework to do. I'd think that Bowen had previous commitments which he may have had to honor and he wasn't rushing back to the Borden's for the autopsy.
BTW: At Emery's when they heard about the murders, they were supposedly playing croquet!

john · Post by **john** » Sat Aug 13, 2005 11:30 pm

I doubt they were playing croquet, and you bring up another interesting point. What was Morse doing at the Emery's?
He was there the day before too, and it seems like 12 or 14 hours talking to your neice would be sufficient.
So can we say that this looks suspicious, or does this room consider it pase'?

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sun Aug 14, 2005 2:34 am

As far as we know, Morse came to the Bordens Wednesday around 1:30 pm and sat around with the elders till 3:30 or so (after eating food supposedly poisoned earlier?), then went off to Swansea. He was at Dan Emery's Thursday from about 9:20 am until 11:20?
We've read that croquet was a big fad at the time, and in fact there was a croquet lawn in New Bedford right near the courthouse. It's possible Dan Emery & wife were playing August 4th after dinner, as the newspapers say.
It's an odd picture, granted.

john · Post by **john** » Sun Aug 14, 2005 4:57 am

Just another misnomer I guess, because I read that he had been at the Emery's on Wednesday as well. Also, as I recall from a newspaper article, his neice made Morse visit there seem not so important, kind of like "oh ya he dropped by."
I remember that because his neice was from Excelsior, MN, a town I used to hang in when I was a kid.
Croguet sounds much better than TV. Kat bumps John with her croquet ball and sends him way out onto the nursing home parking lot and giggles.
"Darn Kat, I hate it when you do that," sniffles John.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sun Aug 14, 2005 8:36 pm

Have we determined if Bowen had a phone, yet?

I didn't get that impression from the niece, actually. What have you been reading? The nephew didn't seem to be around much, so he seems more blase about Morse's visit, to me.

john · Post by **john** » Mon Aug 15, 2005 4:41 am

So how long has this site been going on, and you havn't determined yet if Dr. Bowen had a phone?
With all due respect, that is a key issue because Bridget could have called help on the phone instead of her meandering. Probably they didn't have a phone, or Mrs. Bowen would have called the police.
More interesting would be if Mrs. Churchill had a phone. If she did, and she was well to do, why didn't she use it. Did she know that something was going to happen and dropped her groceries and ran to Lizzie?
And why wasn't Mrs. Churchill leary of being there? For all she knew there had to have been a hatchet murderer within feet of her, yet she doesn't seem afraid. And afraid would mean zoom. Anyone who would hang around that house had to be in on something.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Mon Aug 15, 2005 4:29 pm

Bowen possibly having a phone came up and I speculated that he may have had a "service" which took messages for him. No one replied as to their knowledge or understanding of the times.

I did try and Harry did too- to contact the guy who was referenced by Jeffery as having the phone museum who would know if Emery had a phone- I called the guy long distance twice and e-mailed him- but he never answered.
Anybody can follow that up- not just me.

I think it is important to know- yes I agree- but I'm just one person.

I doubt Mrs. Churchill was well-to-do at the time. She was a widow and had boarders. I don't know if her economic level has to do with having a phone, but I don't think she needed one, personally, my opinion.

Edisto · Post by **Edisto** » Tue Aug 16, 2005 12:38 pm

It sounds to me as if most of the telephones in Fall River were in commercial establishments. I can't think of any private individuals concerned with the case that I know for sure had a home telephone. Can anyone else? The Bordens didn't. As far as we know, Mrs. Churchill didn't, or else she probably would have used it to summon help. There was apparently no phone in the home where Emma was visiting in Fairhaven, because she had to be summoned by telegram. Alice Russell, who worked from home, probably had no phone, because Bridget went in person to summon her. (However, that may have been because the Borden house lacked a phone.) As much as a doctor would have needed a phone, it seems as if Dr. Bowen might not have had one. I know there were city directories in Fall River in the 1890s, but were there telephone directories? I don't think I've heard of any. It sounds as if Dr. Chagnon might have had a phone, because his assistant phoned the Collett house to get someone to house-sit for Dr. Chagnon. (This is according to Lucy Collett; another witness statement makes it sound as if the assistant went in person to the Colletts' to get help.) John Cunningham, the newsman, reported the crimes to police (and to the newspapers) by telephoning from Gorman's Paint Store at the corner of Second and Borden. It seems odd that a paint store had a telephone and a doctor didn't! Maybe Augustus Gorman was the neighborhood techie!!

I wonder if the FRHS has any info on phone service in Fall River in the 1890s. It is an interesting topic for sure.

nbcatlover · Post by **nbcatlover** » Wed Aug 17, 2005 2:08 am

The Telecommunications History Group, Inc. has telephone books going back to 1890 (but they represent Western states). It would seem probable that the Eastern states did as well.

http://www.telcomhistory.org/Collections.html

While mulling about Lizzie's pigeons again, I did more research about pigeons and decided they were not passenger pigeons, not racing pigeons, but homing pigeons for conveying messages. I wondered what in Andrew's life had changed so much that he didn't need them anymore. Obviously, the growing availability of the telephone.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Wed Aug 17, 2005 2:44 am

I believe homing pigeons are used for racing, and carrier pigeons were used for messages.
I suppose they could have been carrier pigeons.

The killing of the pigeons coincided in time with the painting of the house, and other property. After Susan apprised us of the mess pigeons make, we thought it possible the pigeons were killed as a trade-off for a new paint job sprucing up the property.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Wed Aug 17, 2005 2:47 am

You have some interesting and new ideas. Thanks for your considered input!

Did you ask a while ago about those Robinson names in a will? Do you have access to any genealogy to figure the connection? This is Off-topic here, but I really was wondering about that.

snokkums · Post by **snokkums** » Wed Aug 17, 2005 9:31 am

I don't think the whole town knew this was going to happen. I think Mrs. churchhill went to lizzie's aid, was because lizzie might have ask her too. But I don't think Mrs. Churchill was afraid of lizzie.

diana · Post by **diana** » Sat Aug 20, 2005 9:57 pm

I don't think Mrs. Churchill had a phone.

At the trial she says that when she was at Hudner's market, she asked her brother (who worked there) to "send a telephone message for a woman who was at our house"(trial, 345). Although the implication is not perfectly clear, I'm taking it to mean that Mrs. Churchill's boarder had asked if Mrs. C. could relay a message using the phone at the market.

Audrey · Post by **Audrey** » Sat Aug 20, 2005 10:22 pm

Good sleuthing Diana!

I agree with your opinion.

goldenpixie · Post by **goldenpixie** » Sat Aug 20, 2005 10:51 pm

I don't think Mrs. Churchill or the good doctor had phones. As someone mentioned earlier, most of the phones were probably in commercial establishments. An example of this - When Teddy Roosevelt was President (1901-1909) he often stayed at his "summer white house" on Sagamore Hill in NY. The President had no phone there. If staff wanted to reach him, they had to call the drug store down the hill and the druggist sent a boy up the hill on a bike with whatever message was taken for the President.
So I would think if the President didn't have a phone, the others probably didn't either in the years before him.

nbcatlover · Post by **nbcatlover** » Sun Aug 21, 2005 4:04 pm

Slightly off-topic, but didn't Mrs. Churchill have a son who lived with her? I don't recall ever learning that he had ever been questioned about neighborhood activities or about the Borden family behavior.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sun Aug 21, 2005 8:42 pm

I've just put Churchill-Buffinton stuff in The Privy.

snokkums · Post by **snokkums** » Wed Aug 24, 2005 3:07 am

I don't think in the beginning anybody knew this was going to happen. But, because of the newspaper, and after it happened, I think people would have been able to keep up with the details of what was going on.

john · Post by **john** » Sun Jan 01, 2006 5:55 pm

Yes, I'm sure you guys are right - the importance was that somebody changed their dress. As I recall it wasn't Dr. Bowen, but memories can be foggy.

john · Post by **john** » Sun Jan 01, 2006 6:15 pm

Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2005 3:14 pm Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sure.
It is in Bowen's inquest testimony.
He himself left between 12:30 and 1 pm. I think he wanted his dinner.
Then he was apprised of the autopsy, and to return at 3 pm for that (Trial).

Inquest
119(26)
Q. When you came back from going down street, who did you find there besides those you named?
A. I named Mrs. Churchill and [Miss] Lizzie Borden, and Miss Russell and Bridget. Do you mean when I came back from up stairs?
Q. No, down town.
A. Whether Mr. Sawyer was there before I got back from down town, or directly after, I cannot tell myself. Mr. Charles Sawyer was there very near I think the time.
Q. Was he a neighbor?
A. No, I dont know where he does live, I have known him sometime.
Q. When you came down from up stairs, were more there?
A. Yes, my wife was there then. I told her to go right home.
Q. Had anybodyelse besides your wife come?
A. I could not swear to that.

_____

Prelim
405
Bowen

Q. Were you there later during the day?
A. I think I must have been until probably one o'clock, or half past 12; I wont say positive.
______

Trial
Bowen
Q. Were you present with Dr. Dolan when any autopsy or examination or official examination for the purpose of getting at the cause of death was made?

Page 324

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And did you take some notes for him?
A. I took notes in the morning, if you refer to that.

Q. Well, I ask if at any time?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. And you say you took notes in the morning, and you mean by morning before one o'clock or before twelve?
A. I mean about twelve.

Q. And those notes concerned which body?
A. Mrs. Borden's.

Q. When was the autopsy or official examination for the purpose of getting at the cause of death made on the body of Mr. Borden?
A. I had the telephone message to be there at 3 o'clock.

Wow Kat - Bowen probably had a phone or how else would he get the message being so far away from his office? And if Bowen had a phone why didn't Mrs Bowen call the police?
Would Mrs. Bowen think "Holy God, those smelly but rich neighbors," and not call the police? Not likely.
More likely is that Bridget never even went to the Bowen's. If not, what was she doing, and did Mrs. Bowen say when exactly she went over there?

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sun Jan 01, 2006 10:38 pm

There may have been a message sent to wherever Bowen was, to return for the autopsy. That's what I thought.
Bridget also saw Southard Miller who supposedly refused to hear her concerns and called someone else over to be a witness. Savvy fellow.

If Churchill or the Bowen/Millers had had a phone, I think they would have used it. They were friends of the Bordens.
The fact that no one called on the Dr. Chagnon family in the back- who sound like they did have a phone, seems odd.
So not using a phone which was nearby to the rear sounds more odd than not using a phone which was not across the street.
BTW: I would appreciate when I am being quoted that my name appear somewhere attached to my post, thanks. I figure it was just an oversight.

john · Post by **john** » Mon Jan 02, 2006 1:02 am

Yes I will mention your name if you will mention my name for my exclusive theories, such as the door and key theories. So let it be.

john · Post by **john** » Mon Jan 02, 2006 1:03 am

By the way, this is my monster room, so you be nice!

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Mon Jan 02, 2006 2:59 am

Well, the fact that you left my name off the string of testimony I provided (which takes some looking up and some study and some time) makes it look like you provided testimony- heaven forbid! So I figure it was an oversight and I don't assume you did it on purpose, you know.

john · Post by **john** » Mon Jan 02, 2006 8:27 am

Askew rimes with something naughty, and once again you're missing the point. Why would anyone - might have been Boy George's Grandfather - change their dress to go to a murder scene that just happened? The semantics that you get involved with behoove me.

john · Post by **john** » Mon Jan 02, 2006 8:41 am

How much does Stephani make on the teddy bears? I think you and your sister may be brushing something evil here - I know you don't want anyone's advice, so just ignore it when I say watch out. People were blasted by an axe many years ago, people that were alive and had dreams of tomorrows and thoughts of yesterdays, and though imperfect, we all are imperfect, and Andrew and Abby were happy until a warm morning sliced their future.
When you sell someone postage stamps maybe you could tell them the story of when Lizzie tried to use the Ouija Board.

StevenB · Post by **StevenB** » Sat Dec 02, 2006 2:17 pm

One of the questions mentioned Mrs. Churchill changing her dress before she went over to the Borden house, but it seems we have known and have determined that it was in fact Alice Russell who's name should have been in that question. I checked some of Alice's testimony (Inquest, Prelim, Trial) and found the following three times where she mentions changing her dress before going over to the Borden house on August 4th. I put those specific statements in bold/italics.

Mrs. Churchill would not need to change her dress because she jhad just came back from downtown so she was dressed for "visiting".

RayS · Post by **RayS** » Mon Dec 04, 2006 2:21 pm

I was absent from this site for most of these postings. I wonder why it was brought back now?
Could a new member ever be an old member under a different name?

Smudgeman · Post by **Smudgeman** » Mon Dec 04, 2006 5:33 pm

Give it a rest Rays

StevenB · Post by **StevenB** » Mon Dec 04, 2006 5:51 pm

StevenB @ Sat Dec 02, 2006 2:17 pm wrote:
One of the questions mentioned Mrs. Churchill changing her dress before she went over to the Borden house, but it seems we have known and have determined that it was in fact Alice Russell who's name should have been in that question. I checked some of Alice's testimony (Inquest, Prelim, Trial) and found the following three times where she mentions changing her dress before going over to the Borden house on August 4th. I put those specific statements in bold/italics.

Mrs. Churchill would not need to change her dress because she jhad just came back from downtown so she was dressed for "visiting".

I am a new member, I have been reading through all of the posts. I realize many of you here have moved on to other topics and I try to refrain from posting at old threads, sometimes I feel like it and no one said I couldn't, so stuff it.......

Steven

Lizzie Borden Society Forum

could all the world have known this was coming down?

Dressed to Kill

Re: Dressed to Kill