Asinine "educational" policy

[Constantine]

Perhaps this is old news to those of you with children, but, if I hear correctly (which I have reason to believe I do), there is a policy in New York City public schools (and those of some other municipalities and even some private schools) that actually forbids teachers to teach grammar, spelling and phonics!!!) (A retired teacher of my acquaintance confirms this, at least as far as grammar is concerned. She had to find ways to stick it in the cracks, so to speak.)

If this is indeed so, I think it is past time for a public outcry. Do any of you have any suggestions about what can be done?

[Allen]

I had never heard anything about that. I know that my daughter was taught phonics in school. Spelling is still listed as one of the subjects she is graded for on her report card. She brings home a list of 20 spelling words every week, and gets tested for them every Friday. My biggest gripe with the schools around here are the way they teach the kids to tell time. Or should I say...speed through it almost as if they are in a time warp. I'm glad that our students are getting taught these important fundamentals, I don't know about any other areas, but they still practice these where I am. I can't imagine what would be the reasoning behind NOT teaching them.

[Audrey]

This link says it is in California and that it is an urband legend...

http://www.rethinkingschools.org/archiv ... b164.shtml

[theebmonique]

Constantine...as a veteran teacher, I too would find it totally asinine if this is true. I am trying to look into the website with the curriculum for the State of New York Public School System. It takes a bit of 'wading' to find the exact requirements in the area of English/Language Arts. I will keep digging. Here is where I am starting from:
http://www.nybeacons.org/standards.html


Tracy...

[Constantine]

It does indeed seem "too bad to be true." I wouldn't have believed it if it hadn't been for my teacher friend, who told me that school inspectors had told her that any lesson of hers that included grammar would be marked unsatisfactory. As I said, she said she "stuck it in the cracks," which she did when correcting papers.

[mbhenty]

I met two young kids who worked at the coffee shop I go to all the time, who did not know how to read a clock, or at least the ones with arms on them, as they put it. They were 15 - 16 years old. When I asked them about how they knew what time it was they showed me a digital watch. Would not have believed it if I did not hear it with my own ears.

[theebmonique]

I cannot find anything that says anything about NOT teaching spelling, grammar, and phonics. I am starting to lean towards what Audrey says about it being an urban legend.

I require that my students read outloud (even the ones who are poor readers like this part), write neatly, and spell correctly...and I teach science. If they can't do the aforementioned things at a decent level, they will struggle with science. If they have deficits, for whatever the reason, I help them work on reducing those deficits, using science as a vehicle. Reading is probably THE most necessary and fundamental skill children can develop in order to become successful in school.


Tracy...

[theebmonique]

Here's a link to the English/Language Arts curriculum in NY Public Schools. If you read down far enough it mentions that concentrating too much in one area/skill can lead to a deficit in other areas, particularly with children who struggle with reading. As an educator, this makes sense to me. Reading is a/the major cornerstone of learning.

http://www.emsc.nysed.gov/guides/ela/
Once you click on the above link, then click on: Planning a Standards-based Curriculum: Curriculum Essentials


Tracy...

[RayS]

I met two young kids who worked at the coffee shop I go to all the time, who did not know how to read a clock, or at least the ones with arms on them, as they put it. They were 15 - 16 years old. When I asked them about how they knew what time it was they showed me a digital watch. Would not have believed it if I did not hear it with my own ears.

Yes, years ago I had a 9 yr old niece that could not read an analogue clock (that's with moving hands). I bought her a $5 watch so she could learn. An analogue watch is easier to read in dim light.
Yes, some of the old skills are technically obsolete, unless you don't have a calculator around all the time, or a TV or radio.
For thousands of years humans couldn't tell time except by the position of the sun, and new was heard from others.
In my youth I could tell the time by the position of the sun in the sky. Is this a lost art? When older I could navigate by the position of the sun (east or west) as well. Can you?

[mbhenty]

Yes, when I am offshore and out of sight of land, I will use the sun, moon or a ready bright star. This is very useful at night when the compass light is off. They make very accurate, (close enough in most cases) reference points for navigating. For a sailor it is common sense.

When I was a little boy we had the street lights to tell us what time it was, and usaully we ran like a bugger to get home and avoid a whipping.

[Haulover]

***Reading is a/the major cornerstone of learning. ***

exactly. how else can one educate himself? what is most troublesome about these education controversies is that there is an argument about "what" to teach -- as though teaching were spoon-feeding. the whole point of early education is to equip people as much as possible with tools for thinking.

i've never understood the stories i've heard about people graduating from high school without the ability to read. how does this happen? why would a clock-face be "cryptic?"

[theebmonique]

i've never understood the stories i've heard about people graduating from high school without the ability to read. how does this happen?

By all rights, I should never have a student in my 7th grade classroom who cannot read, write, and comprehend at grade level, at least. However due to some legitimate learning disabilities and some social promotion, I get many of them.

Sometimes with public education, it's not so much that 'more' money is needed, but that what money is already there, is used wisely. We have administrators and secretaries with new air conditioned office digs, while students and teachers sweat it out.

Sometimes I hear 'but it will hurt their self-esteem to not be promoted with their classmates'...and while that may be true for a VERY short while, they can get over that. It will be much harder on their self-esteem when they 'graduate' reading at a 1st or 2nd grade level and can't get a high-enough-paying job to support their family...or to further their education. If it takes holding them back a year or even two in a few cases to get them up to speed...their 'self-esteem' will be much rewarded when they graduate with the ability to read, write, and communicate on a level which allows them to get a job they WANT instead of a job they HAVE to take...or they get the chance to take their education to the next level.

Granted, some children who may not be 'on grade level' right out of Kindergarten or 1st grade, may be able to 'catch up' with great support and efforts from home. Unfortunately, this is not the case many times. Parents who can take the time to read to and with their children are a great help to teachers...but most of all to the children.

By this time of year, 99% of my students will voluntarily read outloud in class. The few who don't, usually have a language barrier, but by the end of the year, ALL of my students will have at least TRIED and SUCCEEDED at reading outloud. Their fellow classmates are great about helping each other with some of the more difficult terminology. Doing this gives them a taste of the success they can have with reading at a higher level. If they can feel good about reading in my science class...they will have a much higher chance of learning the science and retaining what they learn.


Tracy...

[FairhavenGuy]

I think this might also depend on age and subject.

My daughter is five-and-a-half and in public kindergarten here in Massachusetts. She is learning far more today than I was taught at that age. The students in her class are reading short books. They are writing sentences and very short "stories" on their own. HOWEVER, for the most part, at this age, spelling doesn't count too much. Yes, they do learn words and learn to spell them correctly. They learn to sound out words in order to read them. But when they complete sentences, they're allowed to simply "do their best," for now.

Examples: The words in red are what Em wrote hereself.

When I grow up I want to be a waitres and cook food for peple.

When I was little. . . I brot my blanket evrywhere.

This was a kindergarten "essay" on what she did during February vacation.
I played with my new toy. I played in the snow. I watched tv. (It looks as though the "t" in watched was added in, perhaps by Em, perhaps by the teacher.)

So in this case, at this age, they feel it's more important to get the children to use language than to get hung up on spelling every word right. I understand that in first and second grade they get more strict with spelling.

Em got her report card Monday. She got the top mark, "P" for proficient, in every subject and category.

[theebmonique]

Chris...you are absolutely right. There are 'standards' set for each grade and/or subject level. It sounds as if you have a child who will rarely, if ever struggle with schoolwork. She has good DNA, plus you and the Mrs. are the supportive kind of parents that I wish all my students had. Keep up the good work !


Tracy...

[DWilly]

Today I came across a M'guffey's Eclectic Fourth Reader. It's so old I'm afraid to turn the brown pages. There's no cover on it and it looks to have some sort of lace binding that's holding it together. Anyway, I wanted to post just a few things from this book to give an idea of how times have changed. Keep in mind this book is for a child in the Fourth Grade:

The Splendor of War--Chalmers

1. The first great obstacle to the extinction of war, is, the way in which the heart of man is carried off from its barbarities and its horrors, by the splendor of its deceitful accompaniments. There is a feeling of the sublime in comtemplating the devouring energy of a tempest; and this is so elevates and engrosses the whole man, that his eye is blind to the tears of bereaved parents , and his ear is deaf to the piteous moan of the dying, and the shried of their desolated families.


Also, in this reader there are lessons from the Bible and even quotes from scripture. Also, selections from Milton, Byron and Shakspeare.

Here is part of a poem I found in this book:


The Passions---Collins

When Music , heavenly maid! was young-
While, yet, in early Greece, she sung,
The Passions oft, to hear her shell,
Thronged around her magic cell;


It's amazing to look through this reader. Several posters have posted about Lizzie dropping out of school and have said she wasn't very well educated but, I still think that given the standards of her time she was actually better educated than most men and women today who have graduated from college.

[RayS]

The use of mandatory education to "dumb down" or brainwash has been around since the 1950s ("Why Johnny Can't Read" is one book).
Most people got a grammar school education then left for the work force prior to the 1930s. THEN the Great Depression killed off many small businesses and the jobs they provided for teenagers. Also, fewer were on family farms.
A high school graduate THEN was probably the equivalent to the ordinary college graduate NOW. But I could be wrong?

American became a great nation when most people had only a grammar school education, if that. Perhaps the downfall began in the 1950s when they started to produce MBAs to finagle manufacturing. That, and the monopolization of businesses. Growing up I remember (?) many medium businesses (400 - 800 employees), which are long gone. What do you remember?

There is the famous example of Schlitz Beer, the beer that made Milwaukee famous. Two new MBAs changed the classic formula to make a cheaper beer. That worked, but fewer bought it so the profits were the same. Then they cheapened it more, and lost more business. Next, this most famous national beer company went bankrupt. (About 1964?)

[mbhenty]

RAYS: Please allow me to be so bold as to agree by saying you may be wrong. I think a high School graduate of the 1930's is probably smarter than the college graduate of today. In every other respect I understand.

In saying this, I may be opening a Pandora's Box, but to much emphasis is placed on that College degree, and very little on common sense, reasoning, mental observation, and Wisdom, to name a few. Atributes one usually learns at home.

The company I worked for had some real sharp managers. Then I noticed that as time went on they became more and more incompetent. It was then that I noticed the big difference between old management and new, was that most "old" never had much college and came up the ranks, and the "new" were Know-it-all's who appeared to lack all respect for experience, for which the company was gladly exchanging for an MBA.

I can go on all night about working with some of the most reckless and intellectually devoid individuals; many who could wave impressive credentials, but with the wisdom potential that Gary Larson would have a field day with.

Please understand that there were many very intellegent people who came into management right from college and adapted really quick. These had that illusive quality that is lost today---- they all seemed to know that they had much more to learn, that listening was as improtant as speaking, and they took responsibility for thier decision making.

To understand part of what is wrong with some of the students graduating from our universities, and not all of them, one only need to read the bottom of one of HARRY'S posts for the quote. (Epictetus)

But whether the problem is in our schools, the home, or with society in general, I can't really say. But there is something wrong with how the education that some are acquiring is being translated into the business world today.

[RayS]

I thought Gary Larson retired some years ago. Are you thinking of the guy that draws "Dilbert"? Scott Adams.

About 10 years ago at one of my last jobs I worked at a place where cubicles were festooned with cut-outs of "Dilbert". They went out of business there around 2001.

Yes "pointy-haired" managers tell about higher management. Its who you know, not what you know.

[RayS]

I read David Halberstam's (?) "The Reckoning" about 16 years ago.
It reminded us that a successful company produces a product that meets the needs of its customers.
I would recommend it to anyone, even if they don't finish reading the book.

[mbhenty]

Yes, right you are RAYS

Gary Larson did retire a while back. But they still print some of his cartoons on calenders, mugs and such. Not sure whether he still pedals his weird and funny humor in mediums other than the newspaper script? I Love his humor. He see's life thru my eyes.

[RayS]

Gary Larson's one trick was to place human thought and action into dumb animals. The possibility of satire is endless.

The one I can think of is Farmer Brown entering his barn and finding the cows discussing how to butcher a human!!! Most people don't know that cows do eat animals. "Rendered meat" is added as a food supplement.

One study fed cows only clean grass, where the bugs were removed. These cows did not do as well as the cows that ate grass with the bugs on them. Or so I read.

[theebmonique]

His Far Side stuff is just so damn funny...!


Tracy...