Keeping and Eye on Things.

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Sat Mar 25, 2006 12:01 am

Lizzie Borden Inquest testimony page 62:

Q. How long was your father gone?
A. I don't know, sir; not very long.
Q.An hour?
A. I should not think so.
Q. Will you give me the best story you can, so far as your recollection serves you, of your time while he was gone?
A. I sprinkled my handkerchiefs, and got my ironing board and took them in the dining room. I took the ironing board in the dining room and left the handkerchiefs in the kitchen on the table and whether I ate cookies or not I don't remember. Then I sat down looking at a magazine, waiting for the flats to heat. Then I went in the sitting room and got the Providence Journal, and took it in the kitchen. I don't recollect of doing anything else.

page 67:

Q. After your father went out, you remained in either the kitchen or dining room all the time?
A. I went in the sitting room long enough to direct some paper wrappers.
Q. One of the three rooms?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. So it would've been extremely difficult for anybody to have gone through the kitchen and dining room and front hall, without your seeing them?
A. They could have gone from the kitchen into the sitting room while I was in the dining room, if there was anybody to go.

page 68:

Q. What were you doing in the kitchen when your father came home?
A. I think I was eating a pear when he came in.
Q. What had you been doing before that?
A. Been reading a magazine.
Q. Were you making preparations to iron again?
A. I had sprinkled my clothes, and was waiting for the flat. I sprinkled the clothes before he went out.

I watched the show that was on the Travel Channel again earlier which included the showing of the bedspread at the Historical Society. When it came to the part where they were showing Lizzie ironing at the dining room table something occurred to me. This didn't make sense to me. Why would she heat the flats up in the kitchen, and carry them all the way into the dining room to do her ironing? Why did she set the ironing board up on the dining room table at all? There was a table in the kitchen which was of course much closer to the stove, why didn't she set up her ironing board here? After rereading the testimony I was again sort of puzzled. Why did she state she had sprinkled her clothes at one point? Did she carry these items into the dining room to not only support her later alibi, but so that she might keep track of Bridget and Mr. Borden in case either of them decided to go in the direction of Abby's body?

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sat Mar 25, 2006 3:37 am

I'm trying to figure out if Lizzie usually used the dining table to do her little bit of ironing.
In Bridget's preliminary testimony (198)-(29) I find:

A. Dr. Bowen said Mr. Borden was murdered, as I went into the dining room.
Q. Did you see anything of the ironing board when you got back?
A. I did not notice it, but afterwards I saw it on the kitchen table.
Q. Where it belonged?
A. No Sir; it belonged in the closet.
Q. Where were the handkerchiefs?
A. I did not notice them.
Q. About how many handkerchiefs did she have to iron?
A. I could not tell you.
Q. Did she iron anybodys but her own?
A. That is all.
Q. Did you see the handkerchiefs there when you got back?
A. No Sir, I did not think of them.
Q. Was anything more said then that you remember of?
A. No Sir.

--"It belonged in the closet." Not very informative.
To continue:

Q. Where did you keep the flat irons?
A. In a little closet, back of the stove in the kitchen.
Q. Did you have more than one ironing board?
A. Two.
Q. One was larger than the other? The larger was used by you?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Who used the other?
A. They used it themselves, and they used it when they had a dress maker.
Q. Mrs. Borden and Lizzie and Emma used it?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Were they in the habit of ironing on the dining room table?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. It was nothing unusual to have the board on the dining room table?
A. No Sir.
Q. When did you wash that week?
A. Monday.
(74)

--Maybe Lizzie used the dining room table because it was a good height for her. Maybe she used it because she could have a better view out of the dining room windows than from any kitchen window.
Maybe she felt less like a servant herself if she stayed at her chore in the dining room.

If the point is that she seems to have picked a vantage point, I'd say yes she may have- but it also may have been a common vantage point for her- more to see on that side of the house?

RayS · Post by **RayS** » Sat Mar 25, 2006 11:35 am

So Lizzie WAS in the kitchen when Father returned. THEN that voice from above was the Unknown Subject, waiting for his meeting with Andy.

I think ironing in the dining room was a class thing, the kitchen was for servants, the ladies would work in the sewing room or dining room?
What do you think?

Susan · Post by **Susan** » Sat Mar 25, 2006 1:38 pm

There is also another possible reason for ironing in the dining room that comes to my mind. It was summer and if there was enough of a fire to heat up the flats on that stove, can you imagine how hot it would be in the kitchen? I think I would want to be at a distance from the stove's heat, but, close enough to still work with it.

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Sat Mar 25, 2006 2:42 pm

Susan @ Sat Mar 25, 2006 1:38 pm wrote:There is also another possible reason for ironing in the dining room that comes to my mind. It was summer and if there was enough of a fire to heat up the flats on that stove, can you imagine how hot it would be in the kitchen? I think I would want to be at a distance from the stove's heat, but, close enough to still work with it.

That does make sense Susan. But if it was so hot in the kitchen, why did Lizzie claim she sat in kitchen while she was waiting for the flats to heat up? This is where she claimed to be supposedly reading a magazine, no a journal, no a magazine, and supposedly eating a pear. If this was the reason she ironed in the dining room, then why didn't she wait in the dining room or sitting room until the flats were ready?

As for it being a class thing, I'm not totally sure I agree with that either. Lizzie claimed to spend enough time in the kitchen that it appears she was pretty comfortable with saying she was in there. This is also where everyone sat for a time after the murders had been discovered. Their behavior suggests, to me anyway, that the kitchen would not be thought of as the servants place only. I'm going to look over some testimony and see if I can find anything that would lead me to believe this might have been the case though.

Susan · Post by **Susan** » Sat Mar 25, 2006 3:03 pm

Yes, thats true, Melissa. I was thinking that perhaps for doing something sedentary the heat wouldn't be so bad, like looking through magazines and such. But, for doing physical labor in, it may have been too hot for that. We also have Bridget's testimony that Lizzie sat and ate her breakfast in the kitchen the morning of the murders, so, I don't think it was a class thing either.

Wordweaver · Post by **Wordweaver** » Sat Mar 25, 2006 3:41 pm

[quote="Kat @ Sat Mar 25, 2006 12:37 am"]
Q. Where did you keep the flat irons?
A. In a little closet, back of the stove in the kitchen.
Q. Did you have more than one ironing board?
A. Two.
Q. One was larger than the other? The larger was used by you?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Who used the other?
A. They used it themselves, and they used it when they had a dress maker.
Q. Mrs. Borden and Lizzie and Emma used it?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Were they in the habit of ironing on the dining room table?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. It was nothing unusual to have the board on the dining room table?
A. No Sir.[/quote

By setting up in the dining room, Lizzie may have been trying to make everything seem as normal as possible. I wonder if "I sprinkled my clothes" was a Freudian slip implying "sprinkled my clothes with blood."

I'm inclined myself toward the heat and comfort theory. Using a sad iron on a hot day in the kitchen, next to the fire, would be hot, sticky work. I have a couple, and they weigh a lot -- some as much as 8 pounds. Mine that size are about six or seven inches long, a couple of inches thick, oval with pointed ends, and have interchangeable handles; the smaller, lighter flat iron is shaped more like a modern iron, with one square end and one pointed end, a permanent handle, and a mere inch or so thick.

I suspect the smaller board was something like a sleeve board--much smaller, lighter, and more portable than a full-size skirt board. You can still get them; they're useful for dressmaking.

diana · Post by **diana** » Sat Mar 25, 2006 4:59 pm

Bridget was asked about the little ironing board at the Preliminary Hearing:

"Q. Mrs. Borden and Lizzie and you were in the habit of using that for ironing their small things; and they did that on the dining room table?
A. Yes Sir, if it was hot weather; sometimes they did it in the kitchen."

I'm taking from this that it was customary to iron in dining room if the weather was warm.

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Sat Mar 25, 2006 5:27 pm

I know what you mean about the weight of the flat irons diana. I purchased my first antique flat iron a few weeks ago, I've just become fascinated with antique things. It's pretty heavy, and it also has the handle that can be taken off so that you might interchange it with another iron. The handle on mine isn't in such great shape. I was curious to know whether the one I purchased was the same as the one you described, so I just took a quick picture of it sitting on my computer desk.

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Sat Mar 25, 2006 5:48 pm

Wordweaver @ Sat Mar 25, 2006 3:41 pm wrote:
By setting up in the dining room, Lizzie may have been trying to make everything seem as normal as possible. I wonder if "I sprinkled my clothes" was a Freudian slip implying "sprinkled my clothes with blood."

Thats an interesting idea about the Freudian slip. It's a possibility. I think Lizzie let the truth slip through in a few places during her testimony, it just wasn't enough to piece together what really happened. I smell a rat with the whole story about the ironing, I always have. I think there was some ulterior motive behind it, I don't think she ever had any real interest or intentions of actually ironing at all. This explanation seems like a pretty good one, but I still think there was something else behind it. I am just not sure what that something else might be. I wonder if there was a normal day of the week that Lizzie did her own ironing, as there was a normal day of the week for Bridget ?

Smudgeman · Post by **Smudgeman** » Sat Mar 25, 2006 6:06 pm

I have to agree with Mellisa, I have always been suspicious about the ironing as well. I don't think she did any ironing that day, being the lazy Lizzie I think she was. She claims to have been very busy with sewing, laundry, ironing, directing wrappers, looking for sinkers, eating pears, just walking from room to room, full of herself, yet she saw nothing out of the ordinary.......yeah right! I have always thought she was lying when she said she brought a load of clean clothes upstairs too, maybe she said that to have a reason to be upstairs at that time? I will have to check on that .

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sat Mar 25, 2006 6:56 pm

Good points about how hard Lizzie worked!

BTW: Lynn was the one who owns flat irons which are 8 lbs. Diana is the one who went further in the Prelim than me!

Thanks Diana!

Setting up to iron in the dining room to find a vantage point makes sense to me too!

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Sat Mar 25, 2006 7:08 pm

Kat @ Sat Mar 25, 2006 6:56 pm wrote:
Good points about how hard Lizzie worked!

BTW: Lynn was the one who owns flat irons which are 8 lbs. Diana is the one who went further in the Prelim than me!
Thanks Diana!

Setting up to iron in the dining room to find a vantage point makes sense to me too!

I've had a bad habit of that lately.

I still say I need a vacation. Maybe I should start scrolling up to make sure I'm talking to the right person and quoting from the right post before I hit submit from now on

Audrey · Post by **Audrey** » Sat Mar 25, 2006 10:49 pm

Was the kitchen table used for eating?

It may have been crowded with various kitchen items and utensils....

Victorian kitchens seemed to lack storage space like we have today.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sat Mar 25, 2006 11:25 pm

I think Andrew dumped his fallen pears on there.
Was the folded laundry set there too, awaiting their owners to take them upstairs?

mbhenty · Post by **mbhenty** » Sun Mar 26, 2006 12:24 am

There is something that I always found odd....(?)

John Morse arrives at the Borden house. He goes to the back yard, has a pear or two before going into the house. Odd behavior?

There must have been people all around. Including Sawyer at the back door.

What was that all about????? Suspicious behavior at the least, No??? I have always been preplex to his behavior. Almost like he knew something.

If that was you or I, think about it, we would have run into the house, afraid of what was going on. Thus, the reason I think he knew, or at the very least guessed what had happen, also the fact that he made himself scarce. Was that on purpose, an excuse?

How come he makes all these visits to the Borden house, but never really looks up his niece and nephew who only live a little over a mile up the road. At the time he lived in Dartmouth. His nephew and nieces home was in-between the Borden house and Dartmouth. He would need to go by it on his way to Dartmouth. Strange? Was that an excuse to get away? No? Who knows? Not me, I was born much later..... and who am I any way? What are we doing here? What is this thing called life? OOPS!! Sorry, got carried away.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sun Mar 26, 2006 12:50 am

Bridget
Prelim
(216) (58)
Q. They had been having pears there, had they, before?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. How many days before that?
A. I could not tell you. He brought them in and left them on the kitchen table.
Q. What was done with them then?
A. Nothing. Sometimes he came out when they were rotten, and threw them under the barn.
Q. Who would throw them under the barn?
A. Mr. Borden.
Q. Whether or not those pears that he brought in before Thursday, were any of them taken into the dining room?
A. No Sir, I did not see them.
Q. Did he bring them in and let them rot, and then throw them away?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did not he eat any of them?
A. I dont know. They were left on the kitchen table.
Q. In the basket?
A. He brought them in a day or two before, and put them on the kitchen table, and took those out that were rotten and threw them under the barn.
Q. How were they on the kitchen table?
A. Laid right out, emptied out.
Q. What table?
A. A table right near the closet.
Q. There was a rocking chair in your kitchen?
(59)
A. Yes Sir.
Q. This was not your cooking table the pears were on?
A. No Sir, the other table.
Q. How many other chairs were there?
A. Three more chairs.
Q. Ordinary plain chairs?
A. Yes Sir.

--Does her "cooking table" sound like what we might consider now-a-days like a cooking *island* closer to the stove, maybe?

Audrey · Post by **Audrey** » Sun Mar 26, 2006 12:56 am

it does to me.....

The house I grew up in had a huge table in the center of the work area of the kitchen which was used to roll out dough. It had a marble inlay in it for this purpose and was never meant to be used to sit at and eat. It was more or less a 'work table' only.

The wooden part of the top was used as a carving area and it had notches to hold knives.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sun Mar 26, 2006 1:16 am

OK.
Maybe we should place these tables?
The kitchen had 3 windows!

Here's where Lizzie sat according to Bridget at the Prelim:
(221) (63)
Q. She came into the kitchen?
A. I could not tell what time it was. She came right into the kitchen.
Q. She said she was going to have a cookie and some coffee for breakfast?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Where did she sit down?
A. By the kitchen table, and this chair was facing.
Q. What chair did she sit down in?
A. In a big old chair that is right by the window, by the side of the table.

mbhenty · Post by **mbhenty** » Sun Mar 26, 2006 3:16 am

Yes Audrey:
Kitchens as we know them here in America are very different then those in Europe, be it France, Spain or Germany. I found that English kitchens are not much different then they are here, except that Fidges and stoves and cabinets are much larger here. But, then again, everything is overdone here.

I have friends who have these huge wonderful kitchens where we sit and have pizza. COOL?

But, I found that many kitchens in Europe had that old world central kitchen table or working area, with plenty of counter space to pound dough or fling flour at will. Here in the US kitchens are boring places made mostly for appearance than function. But you can't beat them when it comes to being "Pretty."

Smudgeman · Post by **Smudgeman** » Sun Mar 26, 2006 10:31 am

Back to the ironing - maybe Lizzie needed to be in the Dining room so she could make sure where Bridget was and not be in the way. So she goes into the kitchen, gets the flats ready, not necessarily to do any ironing, but to make it look that way just in case Bridget sees her. She also needs to keep an eye on Abby, and waits until she is certain Bridget is outside, then carries the clean clothes up along with the murder weapon and kills Abby. I always thought it was interesting that Lizzie said she was ironing hankerchiefs, and hankerchiefs were found next to Abby's body. They could have belonged to Abby or Lizzie, we will never know. And when Lizzie says she was up there long enough to baste a piece of tape on a garment, maybe she was up there long enough to repair anything that could have occurred during a struggle.

I guess what I am trying to say is that Lizzie "pretended" she was ironing, so she could have a way to get the murder weapon upstairs, and make things look as normal as possible should Bridget happen to waltz back in?

1bigsteve · Post by **1bigsteve** » Sun Mar 26, 2006 10:40 am

Audrey @ Sat Mar 25, 2006 9:56 pm wrote:it does to me.....

The house I grew up in had a huge table in the center of the work area of the kitchen which was used to roll out dough. It had a marble inlay in it for this purpose and was never meant to be used to sit at and eat. It was more or less a 'work table' only.

The wooden part of the top was used as a carving area and it had notches to hold knives.

When I was in the woodworking field I built many of these "rolling islands" that were built for carving, pie making, food prepreation, canning and what have you. I put mine on wheels so it could be moved around. They had slots below surface level (on the side really) for knives, a sharpner, etc. Like Audrey said they were for working on not eating from. Handy little devils.

-1bigsteve (o:

1bigsteve · Post by **1bigsteve** » Sun Mar 26, 2006 11:24 am

That's a good point, Scott, about the ironing.

I have often wondered if Lizzie's "ironing" was just a ruse as a cover for something else. She could have hidden a hatchet in the laundry to get it upstairs and maybe even used an old bed sheet to protect herself from blood splatter, burning it in the stove (one of Lizzie's own sheets so no one would miss it, or one of her parents since they wouldn't be missing it either). Perhaps Lizzie's time spent "sewing" in her room was actually her trying to sponge blood off her clothes and/or hair.

Keeping the stove stocked for "heating her irons" may have been an excuse to keep it fired up to burn bloody sheets/clothes, etc. Lizzie needed to keep that fire hot enough to quickly burn anything she put in it.

Perhaps she did go out into the yard, not to eat pears or into the barn for sinkers, but to throw the hatchet up on the Crowe barn. I don't think Lizzie would have done this in broad daylight. Too much chance of being seen and the racket the hatchet would make when it hit the roof. But it's something to think about.

I'm not really all that convinced that a hatchet was found on the Crowe barn. It could have been a stunt. I've found tools on roofs myself but that hatchet so close to the Borden property look's a little too "let's convict Lizzie" 'ish. Lizzie was so careful about every other aspect of this crime (if she committed it) so why would she be dumb enough to toss a hatchet up on a roof in broad daylight?

If it was a hatchet, and if Lizzie did the deed, where did the hatchet come from? Was it one of Andrew's? Did Lizzie buy it? Gilt was found in Abby's wounds so it must have been a new hatchet. A meat clever could have been used, washed clean and then hidden in plain sight. No one would have noticed Lizzie buying a clever but a hatchet may have drawn a bit more attention.

Lizzie's ironing that day does look a little odd. Something was going on it seems.

-1bigsteve (o:

diana · Post by **diana** » Sun Mar 26, 2006 4:10 pm

I've also been thinking about kitchen tables, Kat.

When Bridget is asked about the laundry, she says that it was piled on the same kitchen table as the pears were. She also says the table with the pears on it is not her cooking table, but "the other table". (Now does that make it an 'eating' table?)

If so, presumably when Bridget says she left Lizzie "eating on the kitchen table" and went out in the yard -- she is referring to this "other table" by the side of the "big old chair that is right by the window".

I wonder if this bears on timing on that morning -- i.e. when did Andrew and Lizzie take their respective piles of laundry upstairs? Did Lizzie eat on a table that was piled with clean clothes for four people?

And while we're on the subject of timing -- when did Lizzie deal with the slop pail she brought into the kitchen when she came down that morning -- and where did she empty it?

Doesn't it always seem like one question just leads into another one? So frustrating!

Smudgeman · Post by **Smudgeman** » Sun Mar 26, 2006 7:32 pm

The slop pail thing bothers me too. Lizzie said she went down cellar in the morning and came back up with clean clothes, but does not indicate what she did with the slop pail, as if the clean clothes were a priority. Then she later says she brought clean clothes upstairs after Andrew came home, so in her mind the bringing of the clean clothes up was important? As for the ironing on the dining room table, I also grew up in a fairly large house , and we had a beautiful dining room and a huge table fit for 8 to eat on comfortably, but my Mother never did ironing or laundry in there.

What if Andrew's and Abby's Laundry was piled on that table, and Lizzie wore one of Abby's obviously too big dresses for her to murder her with, then simply burned it? Just a thought.

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Sun Mar 26, 2006 7:56 pm

1bigsteve @ Sun Mar 26, 2006 11:24 am wrote:
I have often wondered if Lizzie's "ironing" was just a ruse as a cover for something else. She could have hidden a hatchet in the laundry to get it upstairs and maybe even used an old bed sheet to protect herself from blood splatter, burning it in the stove (one of Lizzie's own sheets so no one would miss it, or one of her parents since they wouldn't be missing it either). Perhaps Lizzie's time spent "sewing" in her room was actually her trying to sponge blood off her clothes and/or hair.

-1bigsteve (o:

I think the idea that she carried the hidden hatchet upstairs with the laundry is pretty plausible. The idea of her using a bedsheet is possible, but how would she have used it to shield herself? This is an interesting theory given that a sheet was used to cover Andrew's body later that day, so there would be the expectation of everyone afterward that there would be at least one blood stained bedsheet. Then there is the questioned asked by Bridget when they went upstairs to get the sheets, she asked Mrs. Churchill if she thought two would be enough. That's an interesting theory.

diana Posted: Sun Mar 26, 2006 4:10 pm Post subject:

And while we're on the subject of timing -- when did Lizzie deal with the slop pail she brought into the kitchen when she came down that morning -- and where did she empty it?

Lizzie states that she went down cellar that morning and spent a few minutes in the water closet. If she took care of the slop pail, my guess is this would have been when she would have done it, and that she emptied it in the water closet. But this raises the question of when did Lizzie take the slop pail back up into her room? Because she brought it down and emptied it again later that night.

Inquest testimony of Lizzie Borden page 63:

Q.She was found a little after 11 in the spare room, if she had gone to her own room she must have gone through the kitchen and up the back stairs, and subsequently have gone down and back again?
A. There is no reason why I should not have seen her if she had been down there, except when I first came down stairs, for two or three minutes I went down cellar to the water closet.

page 65:

Q. Assuming that she did not go into her own room, I understand you to say she could not have gone to her own room without your seeing her?
A. She could while I was down cellar.
Q. You went down immediately you came down, within a few minutes, and you did not see her when you came back?
A. No sir.

page 66:

Q. Tell me what talk you had with your mother at that time?
A. She asked me how I felt. I said I felt better than I did Tuesday, but I did not want any breakfast. She asked me what I wanted for dinner, I told her nothing. I told her I did not want anything. She said she was going out, and would get the dinner. That is the last I saw her, or said anything to her.
Q. Where did you go then?
A. Into the kitchen.
Q. Where then?
A. Down cellar.
Q. Gone perhaps five minutes?
A. Perhaps. Not more than that; possibly a little bit more

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Mon Mar 27, 2006 1:22 am

I don't think Lizzie says she took her clean clothes upstairs after Andrew came home.
As for her pail- if it's the one with her *menstrual cloths* that was found in the cellar later that day, intact.
Is there another pail that day- Or is *the other* the one she and Alice brought down that night and which she did empty into the privy?

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Mon Mar 27, 2006 1:58 am

Kat @ Mon Mar 27, 2006 1:22 am wrote:I don't think Lizzie says she took her clean clothes upstairs after Andrew came home.
As for her pail- if it's the one with her *menstrual cloths* that was found in the cellar later that day, intact.
Is there another pail that day- Or is *the other* the one she and Alice brought down that night and which she did empty into the privy?

I am not sure what anybody else was referring to, but I wasn't referring to the pail with the 'menstrual cloths'. Lizzie claimed that pail had been sitting there for a few days, while I don't buy that, I personally don't think it was the slop bucket from Lizzie's room. I'm thinking they kept the same slop bucket for each room, and just kept rinsing/cleaning them out and reusing them. In my opinion, the pail in the cellar with the 'menstrual cloths' was not the slop pail from Lizzie's room. So what happened to this one?

Trial testimony of Bridget Sullivan page 224:

Q. About how long was it after Mr. Morse went that Miss Lizzie Borden came?
A. I don't know how long it was. It was no more than five minutes, I don't think. I don't remember how the time was.

Q. When she came, into what room did she come? Where did you first see her?
A. The kitchen.

Q.From what room did she come?
A. From the sitting-room.

Q. What did she do?
A. She came through the kitchen and left down the slop pail, and I asked her what did she want for breakfast. She said she didn't know as she wanted any breakfast, but she guessed she would have something, she would have some coffee and cookies.

diana · Post by **diana** » Mon Mar 27, 2006 3:19 am

Allen writes:

Lizzie states that she went down cellar that morning and spent a few minutes in the water closet. If she took care of the slop pail, my guess is this would have been when she would have done it, and that she emptied it in the water closet. But this raises the question of when did Lizzie take the slop pail back up into her room? Because she brought it down and emptied it again later that night.

Yes, the slop pail that Bridget says Lizzie brought down to the kitchen that morning is the one I was referring to. You're right, it makes sense that she would take down to the cellar to empty it -- and then maybe she brought it back up to her room at the same time she carried up her clean clothes from the kitchen?

Smudgeman · Post by **Smudgeman** » Mon Mar 27, 2006 4:55 pm

Kat @ Mon Mar 27, 2006 1:22 am wrote:I don't think Lizzie says she took her clean clothes upstairs after Andrew came home.
As for her pail- if it's the one with her *menstrual cloths* that was found in the cellar later that day, intact.
Is there another pail that day- Or is *the other* the one she and Alice brought down that night and which she did empty into the privy?

I guess my confusion about the bringing up clean clothes comes from Lizzie. Lizzie came downstairs that morning with her slop pail, and said she went down cellar for about 5 minutes. Then she says she went upstairs before Mr. Borden went downtown. This is when she says she basted a piece of tape. "I went upstairs directly after I came up from down the cellar, with clean clothes." (From the Inquest} Then she later says she went upstairs with clean clothes five minutes before her Father came home (Rebello page 575)? I guess I am suspicious of her bringing up the clean clothes that could have concealed a weapon, and I wanted to fix in my mind when she supposedly did this? If Bridget Ironed all afternoon on Wednesday, then alot of the laundry was down cellar?

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Mon Mar 27, 2006 8:27 pm

I think it's the same pail. The menstrual pail can be called the slop bucket.
Else Lizzie brought down a menstural pail, and a slop pail and left the menst. pail and brought up the slop bucket and then that night took down a slop pail and brought it back up again.
We don't have that info.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Mon Mar 27, 2006 8:32 pm

Smudgeman @ Mon Mar 27, 2006 4:55 pm wrote:
Kat @ Mon Mar 27, 2006 1:22 am wrote:I don't think Lizzie says she took her clean clothes upstairs after Andrew came home.
As for her pail- if it's the one with her *menstrual cloths* that was found in the cellar later that day, intact.
Is there another pail that day- Or is *the other* the one she and Alice brought down that night and which she did empty into the privy?
I guess my confusion about the bringing up clean clothes comes from Lizzie. Lizzie came downstairs that morning with her slop pail, and said she went down cellar for about 5 minutes. Then she says she went upstairs before Mr. Borden went downtown. This is when she says she basted a piece of tape. "I went upstairs directly after I came up from down the cellar, with clean clothes." (From the Inquest} Then she later says she went upstairs with clean clothes five minutes before her Father came home (Rebello page 575)? I guess I am suspicious of her bringing up the clean clothes that could have concealed a weapon, and I wanted to fix in my mind when she supposedly did this? If Bridget Ironed all afternoon on Wednesday, then alot of the laundry was down cellar?

So Lizzie says she brought up her clean clothes right just before her father left and also right before he came home?

Smudgeman · Post by **Smudgeman** » Mon Mar 27, 2006 8:58 pm

Yes! She gives 2 totally different times of that morning when she said she was bringing up clean clothes. I know I am not crazy, but this little inconsistency in her timeline is bothering me. I don't know why it might be important, did she bring clean clothes up twice, or does she have the timing all wrong? Or am I being picky? I think she changed her story to suit her as she went along ..................

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Mon Mar 27, 2006 9:08 pm

diana @ Mon Mar 27, 2006 3:19 am wrote:
Yes, the slop pail that Bridget says Lizzie brought down to the kitchen that morning is the one I was referring to. You're right, it makes sense that she would take down to the cellar to empty it -- and then maybe she brought it back up to her room at the same time she carried up her clean clothes from the kitchen?

This is all I could find about her carrying the clothes to her room.

Inquest testimony Lizzie Borden:

page 60:

Q. Did you go back to your room before your father returned?
A. I think I did carry up some clean clothes.

page 61:

Q. Then you were up stairs when you father came home?
A. I don't know sure, but I think I was.
Q. What were you doing?
A. As I say, I took up these clean clothes, and stopped and basted a little piece of tape on a garment.
Q. Did you come down before your father was let in?
A. I was on the stairs coming down when she let him in.
Q. Then you were up stairs when your father came to the house on his return?
A. I think I was.
Q. How long had you been there?
A. I had only been upstairs just long enough to take the clothes up and baste the little loop on the sleeve. I don't think I had been up there over five minutes.

page 67:

Q. You were always in the kitchen or dining room, excepting when you went up stairs?
A. I went up stairs before he went out.
Q. You mean you went up there to sew a button on?
A. I basted a piece of tape on.
Q. Do you remember you did not say that yesterday?
A. I don't think you asked me. I told you yesterday I went up stairs directly after I came up from down cellar, with the clean clothes.

This is something else that I noticed when I was going through her testimony. Maybe I'm being to picky, but this seems odd to me as well.

Inquest Lizzie Borden page 77:

Q. When you came down from the barn, what did you do then?
A. Came into the kitchen.
Q What did you do then?
A. I went into the dining room and laid down my hat.
Q.What did you do then?
A. Opened the sitting room door, and went into the sitting room, or pushed it open; it was not latched.

The door would've opened inward, yet she says she pushed it open. To me this implies she did just that, pushed it. But she would've had to pull it towards her to open it. That wording seems odd to me.

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Mon Mar 27, 2006 9:18 pm

Kat @ Mon Mar 27, 2006 8:27 pm wrote:I think it's the same pail. The menstrual pail can be called the slop bucket.
Else Lizzie brought down a menstural pail, and a slop pail and left the menst. pail and brought up the slop bucket and then that night took down a slop pail and brought it back up again.
We don't have that info.

According to Lizzie the pail with the menstrual rags had already been sitting there for a few days before that. My guess is she is implying they were brought down to soak until they could be washed, and she had already completed her menstrual cycle before the day of the murders. This makes sense that they would be brought down to soak until they could be washed, if this is indeed what they were. Bridget said that bucket hadn't been there that long or she would've seen it when she did the wash. That it was the same bucket wouldn't tie in with Bridget saying Lizzie brought the slop bucket down that morning. Because if that was the case then what happened to the bloody rags that were in them? To me it makes more sense that it wasn't the same pail. In my opinion Lizzie and Emma would not have been required to keep their menstrual rags in soaking in their slop buckets until wash day, so there was probably a pail kept down in the cellar to soak them in. This makes more sense to me.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Mon Mar 27, 2006 9:25 pm

Thanks for finding and providing the testimony, Missy.
I checked Rebello, Scott's source, and he was correct, but the testimony in context is helpful.

The thing about the dining room door being pushed open has bothered me for a few years.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Mon Mar 27, 2006 9:28 pm

Lizzie's period was stipulated to have ended Wednesday.
I'm not sure about where that pail was and when.
I'm going by Bridget's testimony.
I had thought that was the one Lizzie brought down on Thursday morning.
Maybe not?
Any more info?

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Tue Mar 28, 2006 8:38 pm

Kat @ Mon Mar 27, 2006 9:28 pm wrote:Lizzie's period was stipulated to have ended Wednesday.
I'm not sure about where that pail was and when.
I'm going by Bridget's testimony.
I had thought that was the one Lizzie brought down on Thursday morning.
Maybe not?
Any more info?

The Witness Statements from the notes of William H. Medley August 4, 1892 on page 28:

I inquired about some cloths with blood, and in a pail half filled with water, and in the wash cellar. She (Lizzie) said that was all right; she had told the Doctor all about that. I then asked her how long the pail and its contents had been there; and she said three or four days. I asked the Doctor about it, and he said it had been explained to him, and it was all right.

I then had a talk with Bridget about the pail and its contents. She said she had not noticed the pail until that day, and it could not have been there for two days before, or she would've seen it, and put the contents in the wash, as that was the day she had done the washing.

Trial testimony of William H. Medley page 706+:

(This testimony came out on cross examination.)

Q. Did you go in the house?
A. I did. I forgot to tell Mr. Moody that.

Q. Then I am not at fault?
A. No.

Q. You went in the house?
A. Yes, sir, after going in the back entry I went to go down in the cellar, and while going down in the cellar officer Mullaly, I think, was on the back cellar stairs, or near there, and I saw this pail, in the wash cellar and called his attention to it, and that is all I did there.

Q. You did not continue down in the cellar?
A. No, sir.

Also according to Bridget the clothes had been put away on Wednesday.

Trial testimony Bridget Sullivan page 222:

Q. Had your ironing been completed the day before?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. And the clothes put away?
A. Yes, sir.

DWilly · Post by **DWilly** » Tue Mar 28, 2006 9:47 pm

What I can't understand is why Lizzie left a pail with bloody menstrual rags out for everyone to see? Wouldn't she have been more discreet? If it had been me I would have gone to the cellar, dumped the water then quickly rinsed out the rags, and then put them somewhere to be washed.

Now of course If I had just murdered two people and I had wiped off the blood from my hands and face then I might be in a rush and just hid the pail and rags in my room until at some point I could sneak down to the cellar to get rid of them.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Wed Mar 29, 2006 1:04 am

Later Bridget makes it clear the clothes were put out to be taken upstairs by family members on Thursday.

My guess is that since there were only, what, 3 cloths? in the pail that the last days rags were in the pail, but not a whole weeks worth. One is never positive when a period is over completely. So 3 cloths in her room in a pail from Wednesday overnight makes more sense to me. And since Bridget didn't see the pail in the cellar, yet does see a pail put down temprarily in the kitchen on Thursday- that pail has always seemed to me to have been the menstrual cloths.
Maybe not- but we still need more info.
We did a massive search at one point for this pail of cloths.

Here is the info on 3 cloths:
Dr. Dolan Testifies - Preliminary Hearing
Questioned by Mr. Adams
Bloody Cloths
Pg. 188 -189

Q: Do you remember a pail in the cellar?

A: Yes Sir

Q: And were there some clothes or napkins in that pail?

A: Yes Sir, three.

Q: Did you examine them?

A: I examined them casually.

Here is the link to the archive search for the pail of bloody cloths:
http://lizzieandrewborden.com/Archive20 ... fprivy.htm

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Wed Mar 29, 2006 1:18 am

Kat @ Wed Mar 29, 2006 1:04 am wrote:Later Bridget makes it clear the clothes were put out to be taken upstairs by family members on Thursday.

I haven't been able to find the testimony from Bridget yet that said the clothing was actually put out on Thursday. I'm still looking though.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Wed Mar 29, 2006 2:15 am

Prelim
Bridget
Q. Where did you leave the clothes you had ironed Wednesday evening?
A. I put them on the table, folded, and Mr. Borden took a pile, and the girls took the other pile.

Q. When?
A. Wednesday morning.

Q. What girls?
A. Miss Lizzie's and Miss Emma's clothes. I always separated them, and laid them in piles.

Q. You said you separated the piles, and Mr. Borden took one, and the girls took their piles; you do not mean that, because Emma was not there?
A. Miss Lizzie must have taken them then.

Q. They did not take them until Thursday morning?
A. No Sir.

Q. They were not ready to be taken?
A. They were on the clothes horse.

Q. They were hung to air as was your habit after finishing ironing?
A. Yes Sir.

Q. You folded them up Thursday morning?
A. Yes Sir.

Q. You took them off the clothes horse and folded them up?
A. Yes Sir.

Q. Perhaps that is one of the things you did after breakfast?
A. No Sir, while I was getting breakfast.

Q. There was one pile for Mr. Borden's room, and one for Lizzie's and Emma's room?

Page 75

A. Yes Sir.

Q. They were not ready until Thursday morning?
A. No Sir.

Q. Where did you pile them up?
A. On the kitchen table.

Q. Where the pears were?
A. Yes Sir.

Q. In the kitchen?
A. Yes Sir.

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Wed Mar 29, 2006 2:17 am

Another reason I have always thought that the pail wasn't the same pail/ slop bucket that Lizzie brought down in the morning was the fact that slop buckets have lids on them. They have a lid for a variety of reasons, but if this was the same pail where was the lid? Why could the officer see right down into the pail?

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Wed Mar 29, 2006 2:26 am

BTW: I like the way edisto thinks.

She was of the same opinion as me when it came to the menstrual cloths. When I came to that part of the thread I thought, people are going to think I've already read that because our opinions on it are exactly the same

Thanks for providing the link Kat.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Thu Mar 30, 2006 4:00 am

Yes we miss Edisto.
Now as for a lid, no one got that specific!

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Thu Mar 30, 2006 4:04 am

And as for Bridget- she sure contradicts herself about the clothes! Maybe we shouldn't have worried about Lizzie on morphine at the Inquest and worried more that Bridget was on beer at the Preliminary Hearing? (Just to settle her nerves, you understand).

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Thu Mar 30, 2006 2:24 pm

Kat @ Thu Mar 30, 2006 4:04 am wrote:And as for Bridget- she sure contradicts herself about the clothes! Maybe we shouldn't have worried about Lizzie on morphine at the Inquest and worried more that Bridget was on beer at the Preliminary Hearing? (Just to settle her nerves, you understand).

Maybe it was good Irish Whiskey?

theebmonique · Post by **theebmonique** » Thu Mar 30, 2006 4:43 pm

Or BAD Irish whiskey...

Tracy...

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Fri Mar 31, 2006 1:02 am

Kash would say Beer!

And more beer!

Seriously, look how fast Bridget went from Wednesday to Thursday with the folded clothes. And she slipped up and said the *girls* took their clothes upstairs.
Maybe she did see Emma Thursday after all

Smudgeman · Post by **Smudgeman** » Fri Mar 31, 2006 7:48 pm

I like the "idea" that Bridget saw Emma on Thursday!

I still think that Lizzie was doing something when she said she went upstairs with clean clothes in the morning, then changed her story to be right before Andrew went downtown. Did she go up there twice with clothes? Was she transporting the weapon up and down the stairs, and needed a good excuse to be going up and down?