Money?

[Kat]

Don't know where to put this, so I'll put it here.
I was reading Lizzie's Probate document again today- which can be downloaded at:
http://lizzieandrewborden.com/Resources ... uments.htm
3rd item from the bottom.
And reading bits out of Len Rebello's book, Lizzie Borden Past & Present.

Page 327:
"A few hours before Lizzie died, she gave Ernest Terry, Sr., $2,500 in cash. Charles C. Cook, executor of Lizzie's estate, petitioned the court to have this money deducted from his $3,000 inheritance. Ernest, in the meantime, charged the estate $2,380 for services he provided at Maplecroft after Lizzie died. That amount was later denied by the court. However, records indicate that Ernest was able to keep the $2,500 gift he received from Lizzie just before she died."
--It looks like the source is: "Providence Sunday Journal, March 10, 1929: 11."

Comments:
Why was Lizbeth holding that kind of cash in her house? $2,500 x 18 is $45,000. I mean, who keeps that kind of cash? Was Lizbeth a bit 'teched in her latter years?
Also, Cook knew about it. So it was no secret- unless one of Lizbeth's servants got jealous and spilled the beans to Cook?

[Audrey]

That is a great deal of money to keep 'on hand' for emergencies!

I can see keeping the equivalent of $1000, but 45?

You would think she would have wanted it in the bank drawing interest!

Likewise-- what could he have done around the house to warrant a bill for $2380?

Could it have been monies collected from rents on properties she co-owned with Emma?

We have never heard of tennants dropping by Maplecroft to pay their rents.

Lizzie's estate was valued at less than Emma's. It makes me wonder how many other undocumented gifts of cash she made to her servants or friends. A practice such as this, going on for some time would have reduced her estate. Of course it could also simply be that she was just a bigger spender than Emma, or a combination of both.

[Kat]

Well, I always wondered about the approx. $100,000 difference in their estates- but we do know that Emma sold her share of the AJBorden building in 1923 to Jacob Dondis. I figured maybe that's why Emma seemed to have more- but I've not compared Lizbeth's inventory to Emmas...meaning if Emma's cash for the 1/2 building was compared to Lizbeth's real estate holding of the same property?

You don't suppose Lizbeth became one of those miser ladies who tucked money away in the floorboards?

What I noticed about Andrew's estate was that he seemed to have goodly balances in many banks around Fall River: something like 7 banks where he kept money. I don't know why he would do that?

[Harry]

......Comments:
Why was Lizbeth holding that kind of cash in her house? $2,500 x 18 is $45,000. I mean, who keeps that kind of cash? ...

Not to nit pick but the value of the $2,500 (from 1927 to 2005) would be worth approx. $26,000. Still a lot of money lying around the house.

A question you have to ask is did she really give Terry the money or did he help himself? If he is the source of the story could he be just saying that to cover up the disappearance of money that Lizzie was known to have had in the house?

As for the number of banks Andrew had money in, I think it was because banks in those days were not insured. The FDIC which insures individual depositors (up to $100,000) was not started until 1933. 7 banks though does seem to have a little paranoia attached to it.

[stuartwsa]

Perhaps she kept it in a large safe at Maplecroft, the way her father did at Second Street?

[bruceaddison]

In an era before ATM's, credit cards and FDIC insurance on bank deposits, people regularly kept far greater sums at hand than they do today. Although $2,500 may seem like a great deal of cash for the time, it was probably not out of keeping with what others in Lizzie's financial situation did. The fact that her long-time business advisor and executor knew about the cash and the "gift" to Ernest Terry probably indicates that Lizzie was not hoarding money under her mattress. And Lizzie, isolated and in ill health during her last year was certainly of the type ripe to be taken advantage of by a long-time employee. Certainly Lizzie's executor must have thought so, or he would not have attempted to deduct the "gift" from Terry's bequest- he had nothing to gain by doing so.

In terms of the substantial disparity between Lizzie and Emma's estates: Emma was apparently almost a recluse during her later years, living very simply. Lizzie, by contrast, was a relatively big spender- she kept several servants, several cars, liked jewelry and nice clothes, and, until a year or so before her death, travelled regularly to Boston, New York and Washington. Victoria Lincoln also attributes the disparity to Lizzie's undying faith in her father's business acumen- she stayed fully invested in Fall River and the value of her fortune was negatively affected when the cotton boom on which Fall River's prosperity was built came to an end in the mid 1920's. Emma by contrast, had substantially divested her Fall River assets and had re-invested elsewhere. preserving the value of her own fortune.

[snokkums]

Do you think maybe she didn't trust banks? Back then alot of people didn't, or maybe she knew she was on her death bed and wanted to make sure certain people got some money.

[RayS]

Do you think maybe she didn't trust banks? Back then alot of people didn't, or maybe she knew she was on her death bed and wanted to make sure certain people got some money.

I do know that after the widespread bank failures 1920s-1930s there were plenty who kept their money hidden away. Much easier to do with specie, gold and silver, than paper money. Years ago I heard about one guy who kept paper money hidden in a mason jar in backyard so his wife wouldn't find it. Years later he found it moldy and shredded.

[RayS]

...
In terms of the substantial disparity between Lizzie and Emma's estates: Emma was apparently almost a recluse during her later years, living very simply. Lizzie, by contrast, was a relatively big spender- she kept several servants, several cars, liked jewelry and nice clothes, and, until a year or so before her death, travelled regularly to Boston, New York and Washington. Victoria Lincoln also attributes the disparity to Lizzie's undying faith in her father's business acumen- she stayed fully invested in Fall River and the value of her fortune was negatively affected when the cotton boom on which Fall River's prosperity was built came to an end in the mid 1920's. Emma by contrast, had substantially divested her Fall River assets and had re-invested elsewhere. preserving the value of her own fortune.

So you have two different reasons for the disparity. I would trust Brown on this (Lizzie spent more, Emma was like Andy)?

[Audrey]

So you have two different reasons for the disparity. I would trust Brown on this (Lizzie spent more, Emma was like Andy)?

Lizzie spent the bulk of her fortune on coffee...

I have reviewed the memoirs of Juan Valdez's great great uncle Ricardo Valdez and it clearly points to Lizzie's coffee imports being the beginning of the now famed Colombian Cartels. Dozens, if not hundreds of people participated in this and all agreed to keep silent about it. Not a hint ever slipped. It really does explain a lot of things. This is why Lizzie bought so much property surrounding Maplecroft. She was digging holes to hide large burlap bags of coffee.

Juan's mother in law, Maria was an immigrant in Fall River and one day, on her way to Boston she noticed the rich aromatic blend of Colombian blend coffee near Maplecroft. (Everyone knows that in Fall River you always go way off course when making trips, whether it be on foot to the shopping district or to far away places) Anyway... Maria was frightened when she saw a wild man in a poncho on a donkey and fled into the neighbor's yard and started chirping like a bird-- This all occurred very early in the morning which prompted Lizzie to write a letter to the neighbor demanding the removal of the bird.

The Coffee Shop gang flourished in Fall River until the introduction of Dr. Pepper..... Now he's a pepper, she's a pepper, wouldn't you like to be a pepper too?

[Wordweaver]

As for the number of banks Andrew had money in, I think it was because banks in those days were not insured. The FDIC which insures individual depositors (up to $100,000) was not started until 1933. 7 banks though does seem to have a little paranoia attached to it.

You're absolutely right about the FDIC. But I don't think the distribution was just paranoia. Money is power. As a big depositor in seven banks, Andrew had much more influence over those banks' officers than he would have had as a huge depositor in one or two banks.

[Susan]

Thanks for the laugh, Audrey, that was good. In fact, good to the last drop.

[theebmonique]

Whew...I feel free now...as I am about to admit:
I AM A PEPPER TOO !!!

OMD...it feels so good to finally get that off my chest.

(P.S. Juan Valdez is my great-great-great-great-great Uncle.)


Tracy...

[DWilly]

Don't know where to put this, so I'll put it here.
I was reading Lizzie's Probate document again today- which can be downloaded at:
http://lizzieandrewborden.com/Resources ... uments.htm
3rd item from the bottom.
And reading bits out of Len Rebello's book, Lizzie Borden Past & Present.

Page 327:
"A few hours before Lizzie died, she gave Ernest Terry, Sr., $2,500 in cash. Charles C. Cook, executor of Lizzie's estate, petitioned the court to have this money deducted from his $3,000 inheritance. Ernest, in the meantime, charged the estate $2,380 for services he provided at Maplecroft after Lizzie died. That amount was later denied by the court. However, records indicate that Ernest was able to keep the $2,500 gift he received from Lizzie just before she died."
--It looks like the source is: "Providence Sunday Journal, March 10, 1929: 11."

Comments:
Why was Lizbeth holding that kind of cash in her house? $2,500 x 18 is $45,000. I mean, who keeps that kind of cash? Was Lizbeth a bit 'teched in her latter years?
Also, Cook knew about it. So it was no secret- unless one of Lizbeth's servants got jealous and spilled the beans to Cook?

There are a few things I can't help but wonder about:

First off, if this happened just a few hours before her death why was Terry trying to get money out of her? Couldn't he see how ill she was?

If Lizzie was close to death I would imagine she was bed ridden at that point and if so, who went and got the money for her? Did anyone else get any money?

And what "services" did this guy give her that cost over $2000 dollars back in 1927? Looks like the court also wondered what in the heck Terry did that cost so much money since they denied his claim.

Finally, Cook may have known about the money but if he asked that it be deducted from his inheritance it doesn't sound like he was too happy about Terry getting the money. I think I smell a rat.

[theebmonique]

Don't know where to put this, so I'll put it here.
I was reading Lizzie's Probate document again today- which can be downloaded at:
http://lizzieandrewborden.com/Resources ... uments.htm
3rd item from the bottom.
And reading bits out of Len Rebello's book, Lizzie Borden Past & Present.

Page 327:
"A few hours before Lizzie died, she gave Ernest Terry, Sr., $2,500 in cash. Charles C. Cook, executor of Lizzie's estate, petitioned the court to have this money deducted from his $3,000 inheritance. Ernest, in the meantime, charged the estate $2,380 for services he provided at Maplecroft after Lizzie died. That amount was later denied by the court. However, records indicate that Ernest was able to keep the $2,500 gift he received from Lizzie just before she died."
--It looks like the source is: "Providence Sunday Journal, March 10, 1929: 11."

Comments:
Why was Lizbeth holding that kind of cash in her house? $2,500 x 18 is $45,000. I mean, who keeps that kind of cash? Was Lizbeth a bit 'teched in her latter years?
Also, Cook knew about it. So it was no secret- unless one of Lizbeth's servants got jealous and spilled the beans to Cook?

There are a few things I can't help but wonder about:

First off, if this happened just a few hours before her death why was Terry trying to get money out of her? Couldn't he see how ill she was?

If Lizzie was close to death I would imagine she was bed ridden at that point and if so, who went and got the money for her? Did anyone else get any money?

And what "services" did this guy give her that cost over $2000 dollars back in 1927? Looks like the court also wondered what in the heck Terry did that cost so much money since they denied his claim.

Finally, Cook may have known about the money but if he asked that it be deducted from his inheritance it doesn't sound like he was too happy about Terry getting the money. I think I smell a rat.

I am not under the impression from the reading, that Mr. Terry was not 'trying' to get money from Lizzie in the hours before her death. It is my impression that she gave him the money willingly.

I too am interested in what services he did provide after her death. Is there court documentation somewhere with the specifics ? As executor of Lizzie's will, maybe Mr. Cook was just wanting 'more' for himself and thinking that Mr. Terry was getting too much ?


Tracy...

[Audrey]

It is very odd that he presented such a large bill for services rendered.

How long was he there?

[Audrey]

In an era before ATM's, credit cards and FDIC insurance on bank deposits, people regularly kept far greater sums at hand than they do today. Although $2,500 may seem like a great deal of cash for the time, it was probably not out of keeping with what others in Lizzie's financial situation did. The fact that her long-time business advisor and executor knew about the cash and the "gift" to Ernest Terry probably indicates that Lizzie was not hoarding money under her mattress. And Lizzie, isolated and in ill health during her last year was certainly of the type ripe to be taken advantage of by a long-time employee. Certainly Lizzie's executor must have thought so, or he would not have attempted to deduct the "gift" from Terry's bequest- he had nothing to gain by doing so.

In terms of the substantial disparity between Lizzie and Emma's estates: Emma was apparently almost a recluse during her later years, living very simply. Lizzie, by contrast, was a relatively big spender- she kept several servants, several cars, liked jewelry and nice clothes, and, until a year or so before her death, travelled regularly to Boston, New York and Washington. Victoria Lincoln also attributes the disparity to Lizzie's undying faith in her father's business acumen- she stayed fully invested in Fall River and the value of her fortune was negatively affected when the cotton boom on which Fall River's prosperity was built came to an end in the mid 1920's. Emma by contrast, had substantially divested her Fall River assets and had re-invested elsewhere. preserving the value of her own fortune.

But didn't Emma meet all the expenses of her companions as well?

[Kat]

The wills and probate records should be checked, but as far as I know, Emma only sold the 1/2 share in the AJBorden building alone. I think the girls sold the farm together.
If you guys check the back of Rebello, you'll see that Emma and Lizzie continued to have land transactions in Fall River, so I don't know that Emma "divested" and "re-invested elsewhere."

Emma bought her apartment in Providence, but she didn't soley buy any other property, like Lizzie did.

I still think that some of Lizzie's personal real estate purchases and her holding the 1/2 share in the AJBorden Building might have affected her final inventory assessment. It's possible.

By the By: page 279, Rebello:
Andrew had several accounts in the same banks.
I hadn't realized that! It's 10 accounts!
(Sorry I was not more accurate earlier- I was relying on memory when I said "like 7 banks."

"Personal

10 shares Chace Mills stock 1,000.00
Dividends on deposit Fall River Five Cents 175.00
Savings Bank 1,800.00
Deposit Pocasset National 129.36
Deposit Union Savings Bank 1,106.87
Deposit Citizens Savings 1,800.00
Deposit Citizens Savings 1,436.84
Deposit Citizens Savings 1,307.14
Deposit Citizens Savings 1,241.10
Fall River Savings 1,757.48
Fall River Savings 268.93
Fall River Savings 1,384.00
1.32
__________
Total $13,408.04

----
Yes, excuse me Har! I was multiplying by 18 as if it was 1892- Thanks for the reminder it was 1927!

[Harry]

Thanks Kat, that's good info.

It appears to me that it involves 6 different banks with multiple accounts in certain banks.

Multiple accounts can be explained by him having an individual account for a property that he owned. The rents from that property would go into that account and the expenses withdrawn from it. What's left, hopefully, is the profit generated from that property. A simple and cheap method of accounting in the pre-tax days.

From page 9, Sullivan's "Goodbye, Lizzie Borden":

"He [Andrew] was president of the Union Savings Bank, director of the First National Bank, director of the Durfee Safe Deposit and Trust Company, director of the Globe Yarn Mill Company, director of Troy Cotton and Woolen Manufacturing Company, and director of the Merchants Manufacturing Company."

Per the list Kat posted, he did have one account in the Union bank of which he was president but none in the two banks in which he was on the board of directors. That's unsual. Today, most directors of corporations at least make a token investment or involvement in companies of which they sit on the board. However, it should be stressed that the list is most certainly not the total investments and holdings of Andrew. It was culled from Probate records.

In Brown's book, p33 of the paperback edition, it states: "... He owned one of Fall River's banks and had four fingers and at least one foot in three others. ..."

I have no idea what the source is for Andrew "owning" a bank. I couldn't even find any record of him owning stock in a bank at least at the time of his death.

[RayS]

One simple and perhaps accurate account of that "gift". When Lizzie croaked, the person there went through her belongings to grab whatever loose cash he could find. "IT was a gift" he said. Who would say different?
I once heard of a case where a man was wounded in combat. When he got to the hospital, he found all his money and watch were gone. I've also heard this about someone hit by a car and killed.
In another case a man who died in the hospital had his watch and clothes go missing; they were found a few days later.
Be warned!!!

[RayS]

So you have two different reasons for the disparity. I would trust Brown on this (Lizzie spent more, Emma was like Andy)?

Lizzie spent the bulk of her fortune on coffee...

I have reviewed the memoirs of Juan Valdez's great great uncle Ricardo Valdez and it clearly points to Lizzie's coffee imports being the beginning of the now famed Colombian Cartels. Dozens, if not hundreds of people participated in this and all agreed to keep silent about it. Not a hint ever slipped. It really does explain a lot of things. This is why Lizzie bought so much property surrounding Maplecroft. She was digging holes to hide large burlap bags of coffee.

Juan's mother in law, Maria was an immigrant in Fall River and one day, on her way to Boston she noticed the rich aromatic blend of Colombian blend coffee near Maplecroft. (Everyone knows that in Fall River you always go way off course when making trips, whether it be on foot to the shopping district or to far away places) Anyway... Maria was frightened when she saw a wild man in a poncho on a donkey and fled into the neighbor's yard and started chirping like a bird-- This all occurred very early in the morning which prompted Lizzie to write a letter to the neighbor demanding the removal of the bird.

The Coffee Shop gang flourished in Fall River until the introduction of Dr. Pepper..... Now he's a pepper, she's a pepper, wouldn't you like to be a pepper too?

I think your Doctor needs to cut back on your "pain killers", or any other recreational drugs.

[theebmonique]

Ray...

PLEASE BE NICE !!!

I am becoming increasingly offended by your caustic/unkind remarks. Yes, there that freedom of speech thing, but I feel our nation's forefathers did not mean that it was acceptable to constantly berate and belittle. I and others have mentioned that we feel you have a lot to offer us here on the forum, but with your style of response, it's hard to want to respond. I am begging you to PLEASE be nice and play well with others. I am sure we will/would be able to learn a lot from you...but I can guarantee that it won't be happening with your continued resistance and abrasive approach

I would have done this privately/via PM's, but you suggested that way would not work for you.

I aopologize to my fellow forum members for speaking out so bluntly. I tried the other route, but it did not work and I HAVE HAD ENOUGH !


Tracy...

[Audrey]

So you have two different reasons for the disparity. I would trust Brown on this (Lizzie spent more, Emma was like Andy)?

Lizzie spent the bulk of her fortune on coffee...

I have reviewed the memoirs of Juan Valdez's great great uncle Ricardo Valdez and it clearly points to Lizzie's coffee imports being the beginning of the now famed Colombian Cartels. Dozens, if not hundreds of people participated in this and all agreed to keep silent about it. Not a hint ever slipped. It really does explain a lot of things. This is why Lizzie bought so much property surrounding Maplecroft. She was digging holes to hide large burlap bags of coffee.

Juan's mother in law, Maria was an immigrant in Fall River and one day, on her way to Boston she noticed the rich aromatic blend of Colombian blend coffee near Maplecroft. (Everyone knows that in Fall River you always go way off course when making trips, whether it be on foot to the shopping district or to far away places) Anyway... Maria was frightened when she saw a wild man in a poncho on a donkey and fled into the neighbor's yard and started chirping like a bird-- This all occurred very early in the morning which prompted Lizzie to write a letter to the neighbor demanding the removal of the bird.

The Coffee Shop gang flourished in Fall River until the introduction of Dr. Pepper..... Now he's a pepper, she's a pepper, wouldn't you like to be a pepper too?

I think your Doctor needs to cut back on your "pain killers", or any other recreational drugs.

[Audrey]

Ray...

PLEASE BE NICE !!!

I am becoming increasingly offended by your caustic/unkind remarks. Yes, there that freedom of speech thing, but I feel our nation's forefathers did not mean that it was acceptable to constantly berate and belittle. I and others have mentioned that we feel you have a lot to offer us here on the forum, but with your style of response, it's hard to want to respond. I am begging you to PLEASE be nice and play well with others. I am sure we will/would be able to learn a lot from you...but I can guarantee that it won't be happening with your continued resistance and abrasive approach

I would have done this privately/via PM's, but you suggested that way would not work for you.

I aopologize to my fellow forum members for speaking out so bluntly. I tried the other route, but it did not work and I HAVE HAD ENOUGH !


Tracy...

Comon Trace! It is truly FUN for me to press such easy to find buttons!

He has become my Forum Marionette. I know just how to make him dance!

[Kat]

Well, if Harry puts that cash at around $26,000, that's enough to buy a house on French Street right out with cash, right?
I still think it's odd to have that much on hand. It's certainly more than needed to pay the servants. It's more than the servants pay for years, isn't it?

[RayS]

Ray...

PLEASE BE NICE !!!

I am becoming increasingly offended by your caustic/unkind remarks. Yes, there that freedom of speech thing, but I feel our nation's forefathers did not mean that it was acceptable to constantly berate and belittle. I and others have mentioned that we feel you have a lot to offer us here on the forum, but with your style of response, it's hard to want to respond. I am begging you to PLEASE be nice and play well with others. I am sure we will/would be able to learn a lot from you...but I can guarantee that it won't be happening with your continued resistance and abrasive approach

I would have done this privately/via PM's, but you suggested that way would not work for you.

I aopologize to my fellow forum members for speaking out so bluntly. I tried the other route, but it did not work and I HAVE HAD ENOUGH !

Tracy...

Thank you for your kind remarks.
I sincerely apologize for what ever offended you.
I guess my joke was too much in this case. But about 'coffee' or some other import from South America?
I am happy you are watching out for your little sister. Just like Emma?

[RayS]

Simon Winchester's book "A Crack in the World" has this on page 288.
There was $500 million in damages from the earthquake and fire.
Based on the Consumer Price Index that is $10 Billion.
Based on Gross Domestic Product that is $8 Billion.
Based on Unskilled Labor that is $45 Billion.
Based on GDP per capita that is $57 Billion.
Based on total value GDP that is $195 Billion.

What does that calculator say?

The 100th anniversary of the worst fire in peace time is next week, 4/18.