The Wood Pile

augusta · Post by **augusta** » Sun Apr 09, 2006 12:01 am

Why was there a wood pile in the Borden's back yard? I have always pictured it being wooden boards, or sheets of lumber. Was this their wood supply for domestic use for the coming year, and they were seasoning it out there? Did Andrew collect it from the building of the AJ Borden building?
Was it logs, or lumber?

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Sun Apr 09, 2006 12:13 am

These are pictures I found on the LABVM site of the Borden's back yard that seem to show the 'wood pile.' In my opinion they sort of do look like wooden planks. That's a very interesting question augusta. What was the purpose of this pile, why was it kept there?

Audrey · Post by **Audrey** » Sun Apr 09, 2006 12:58 am

It looks like an old junk pile of wood! The kind of wood a man 'just knows' he is going to have a use for someday and his wife wishes he would either do the project or get rid of the wood!

Thayne came into posession of a large amount of lumber once that he was going to make a fence out of. It lay piled by our garage for months. I nagged and nagged him about it he never did use it or dispose of it... One day I was tired of it so I spent (literally) hours moving it a safe distance from the garage and lit the whole mess on fire. Was he ever mad! It has been years and he still sometimes brings it up!

mbhenty · Post by **mbhenty** » Sun Apr 09, 2006 1:09 am

Yes Allen:

I went on and on about this issue on another post. Not sure if you seen it.

But it was not unusual for many property owners to keep such piles in the back yard, at least here in Fall River. When I was little, it appeared everyone had one and I remember it looking just like the one in the Borden yard.

I remember going into someone's yard with friends to steal apples only to have the owner chase us with a stick or hoe. We could always outrun him, and we would climb the wood pile against the fence and be over it in less then a second. Places you can go when you fear for your life.

So to me, I don't find it unusual, espically for old man Borden who had many properties. Very doubtfull he would throw anything away. What a marvalous find a 2x10x10 would be for him. Can you see kelly next door asking, "hey Andrew want a couple of planks....free."

Great post Allen

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Sun Apr 09, 2006 7:21 am

Audrey @ Sat Apr 08, 2006 11:58 pm wrote:It looks like an old junk pile of wood! The kind of wood a man 'just knows' he is going to have a use for someday and his wife wishes he would either do the project or get rid of the wood!

LOL. Boy, does that remind me of my father. He wasn't as much frugal as he was a saver. He saved things with the "you never know when you are going to need it" philosophy. This especially applied to small objects, nails, nuts and bolts, screws, faucet washers, small pieces of solder, etc.

I really don't think any of the nuts and bolts fit together and he had enough faucet washers for 20 sinks but that never stopped him saving the next one.

I think it's part of the male character as I do some of it myself. Well, who knows when you'll need them? LOL

1bigsteve · Post by **1bigsteve** » Sun Apr 09, 2006 10:32 am

My grandfather kept a small pile of odd-sized pieces of wood behind his garage (complete with Black Widows) but he actually used the wood in various projects. He would pull out his old tools and build something practical. My grandmother kept folded sheets of aluminum foil and empty plastic margarine tubs. My dad kept a pile of fencing material in the corner of our yard when I was a kid. We never used it for anything so years later we finally had a huge bon fire and roasted weiners and marshmallows (along with the Black Widows) and had a good time of it.

When I was a young kid mom said I collected rocks. Just ordinary rocks. My pockets would be full of them. Under my pillow she would discover old dinner rolls. Preparing for a famine I guess.

I collect books I'll never read, cans of odd ball nuts, bolts, screws, springs (remember when hardware stores didn't sell these and you had to buy something and remove "it's" spring?), washers, old tools I have no use for, dumbbell plates I don't even like, etc., etc.

Recently at a flea market I picked up a handfull of old bullets of various sizes someone had dumped out of a box. When I got home I stood there with them in my hand and said to myself, "Why did I bring these home, I don't even own a gun?" I then looked up at all of my books I'll never read and suddenly realized I was a "Collect-Aholic." I started throwing out stuff I had for decades and now I can't even remember what most of that "I-can't-live-without-this-stuff" was or why I kept it. I just don't miss it. Odd.

I can just see Andrew Borden thinking to himself, "I might need this lumber some day."

Hey, "Fire Bug Audrey". Never come between a man and his wood pile. Remember Joan of Arc?

I just had to say that.

-1bigsteve (o:

Audrey · Post by **Audrey** » Sun Apr 09, 2006 11:18 am

All I could think of with Thayne's lumber pile and all I can think of with Andrew's are the snakes lurking under it... waiting to slither out the moment you disturb the very small top board.... Ewww...

theebmonique · Post by **theebmonique** » Sun Apr 09, 2006 11:56 am

And the rats...the mice...Maybe there were enough neighborhood cats to keep these things at bay ?

Tracy...

1bigsteve · Post by **1bigsteve** » Sun Apr 09, 2006 12:03 pm

That is a legitimate fear to. I've seen people grab ahold of old lumber without realizing that that pile is home to all kinds of creatures and not just snails, slugs, salamanders and lizards. Black Widows, scorpions, rattlesnakes, cottonmouths, copperheads and who knows what else love old wood piles. It's important to take precautions when moving old wood.

Andrew may have left his alone because he didn't feel like fooling with the local wild life. A lot of people do. They just let it sit.

Thank you for the photographs, Allen. I've never seen those before. I've added them to my collection. From what I can see, it looks like Lizzie had six pear(?) trees in her backyard. That white short picket fence on the right must be part of the grape arbor, I guess. That back fence look's like it's in good condition.

-1bigsteve (o:

mbhenty · Post by **mbhenty** » Sun Apr 09, 2006 1:30 pm

Woooe Steve: After that remark about Joan of Arch I thought you were really going to get it, especially after finding that Audrey was the next poster. But you got away unscathed.

I always belived that collectors are born not made. Most collectors, whether it's books, china, paper weights, or what have you, collected insignificant junk when little.

When I was young I also collected stones. Loved God rocks, nice round ones. If you lived by the ocean, that was where the best rocks could be found. Later it was model cars. This of course was in the "Pre-snif-da-glue" days. Had tubes of glue all over my bedroom. Built cars, boats, planes.

Someone should start a string on what people collect, on another location in the sight.

As for the wood pile. It was a archeologist dream for any little boy. From the wood pile I had pickle jars with dead forgs, snakes, lizards, (my favorite) all alive at one time. They did't last long unless you put holes in the lid. Took me some time to figure that one out.

augusta · Post by **augusta** » Sun Apr 09, 2006 2:18 pm

Thanks for the pics, Allen! It was good to see those shots up close.

Most of it looks like the same kind of wood, like he acquired it all at the same time. Planks, yes - I think.

I wonder if it was surplus from a project he was having built and could not stand to let the leftover good lumber go to waste.

The wood on the right looks like it could be logs for firewood.

I wonder why the planks were not put in the barn?

Since Andrew was so meticulous about locking his house and keeping people out, I am surprised he had those planks so close to his back fence, enabling an easy exit or entrance onto his property.

RayS · Post by **RayS** » Sun Apr 09, 2006 2:35 pm

In the early 19th century wood was used for building everything and also for fuel. It had value in itself, like a pile of dirt (top soil for gardens).
You could repair fences, and also use it for kindling a coal fire.
Anyone thrifty would have this in their back yard.

theebmonique · Post by **theebmonique** » Sun Apr 09, 2006 5:04 pm

Thank you for the close up photo Auds. It really adds to to the total perspective of things. Good job !

Tracy...

1bigsteve · Post by **1bigsteve** » Sun Apr 09, 2006 9:00 pm

mbhenty @ Sun Apr 09, 2006 9:30 am wrote:Woooe Steve: After that remark about Joan of Arch I thought you were really going to get it, especially after finding that Audrey was the next poster. But you got away unscathed.

I always belived that collectors are born not made. Most collectors, whether it's books, china, paper weights, or what have you, collected insignificant junk when little.

When I was young I also collected stones. Loved God rocks, nice round ones. If you lived by the ocean, that was where the best rocks could be found. Later it was model cars. This of course was in the "Pre-snif-da-glue" days. Had tubes of glue all over my bedroom. Built cars, boats, planes.

Someone should start a string on what people collect, on another location in the sight.

As for the wood pile. It was a archeologist dream for any little boy. From the wood pile I had pickle jars with dead forgs, snakes, lizards, (my favorite) all alive at one time. They did't last long unless you put holes in the lid. Took me some time to figure that one out.

Shhhh... Michael! Don't give Audrey any ideas, she might throw a hatchet at me. Audrey is a good sport. I like teasing her.

By the way I studied Joan of Arc during high school and my first painting was of her. She was a very interesting person!

I heard it said many years ago that Andrew's wood pile was the left over lumber from the fence(s) around his property but I have never found confirmation on that. I believe the Police moved that pile, board by board, looking for that weapon, if I heard right. Knowing Andrew he probably could not get rid of it no matter what.

-1bigsteve (o:

Audrey · Post by **Audrey** » Sun Apr 09, 2006 9:30 pm

I have a great admiration for Jeanne d'Arc.

If it hadn't been for her I might have grown up eating bangers and mash instead of mousse, pate, thousands of different kinds of cheeses..... Croissants, brioche.... The list never ends.

mbhenty · Post by **mbhenty** » Sun Apr 09, 2006 11:45 pm

I always wondered what Joan of Arc really did look like?
How much folklore played in her being mistaken for a man. And where is the real Ax Washington used to cut down the pear tree..........or was it cheery?

I remember this one girl I dated for a while. Real lady like. Five or Six years later she, I mean he, no she came walking in to the coffee shop where I frequent. Well I say "she." Wow, what a transformation......., alien, from the Large leather wallet hanging out her back pocket, held to her belt by a massive chain, her bald head to her deep, deep voice. "Hi Mike, yep it's me" When we first met she wore mini skirts and we use to dance to "Lady in Red". Aggggghhhhhh!!!!!!!

So makes me wonder what Joan really looked like????

Just wanted to clarify the above. Read it a second time, doesn't read right. The girl I dated was a "girl" when I went out with her, and still a girl after I went out with her. She just didn't dress like one any longer. No, it was not a guy.!!!!!!!!!!!

Audrey · Post by **Audrey** » Mon Apr 10, 2006 12:58 am

She was French! Obviously she was an enchantress.

I think she appeared as the older statues of her do. Long necked, slender with delicate features. There are 'portraits' of her.. But who knows how authentic they are?

In this depiction of her-- she looks very, very French....

mbhenty · Post by **mbhenty** » Mon Apr 10, 2006 1:16 am

Thanks Audrey for the Photo. She looks in such "mental" agony.

Audrey · Post by **Audrey** » Mon Apr 10, 2006 1:36 am

She looks tortured...

I never believed she was schizophrenic.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Mon Apr 10, 2006 5:18 am

Andrew had barbed wire at the top and bottom of that fence, but it didn't keep the guy from picking pears and it didn't keep the searcher off who was trying to find traces of someone going over it.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Mon Apr 10, 2006 5:20 am

As Allen states, those pics are from the LABVM/L site and I know Harry is the one who did the first close-up of the wood pile.
http://lizzieandrewborden.com/Galleries ... St1892.htm

It was good to bring them over to illustrate the topic.
That bisected V shaped section always looked to me like a roof joist. Is that the word?

1bigsteve · Post by **1bigsteve** » Mon Apr 10, 2006 1:51 pm

Kat @ Mon Apr 10, 2006 1:20 am wrote:As Allen states, those pics are from the LABVM/L site and I know Harry is the one who did the first close-up of the wood pile.
http://lizzieandrewborden.com/Galleries ... St1892.htm

It was good to bring them over to illustrate the topic.
That bisected V shaped section always looked to me like a roof joist. Is that the word?

Look's like a "pre-fabed roof truss." I don't think they made pre-fabed trusses in Lizzie's day. It could be the way the lumber is stacked.

-1bigsteve (o:

1bigsteve · Post by **1bigsteve** » Mon Apr 10, 2006 2:02 pm

Kat @ Mon Apr 10, 2006 1:18 am wrote:Andrew had barbed wire at the top and bottom of that fence, but it didn't keep the guy from picking pears and it didn't keep the searcher off who was trying to find traces of someone going over it.

Didn't one of the searchers get his pant leg hung up on that barbed wire and had to be "rescued?" That would be embarrassing, walking around town with the seat of your pants missing.

Remind's me of what happened to Arlene Blum in her book, "Breaking Trail." Read it. It's funny.

-1bigsteve (o:

mbhenty · Post by **mbhenty** » Mon Apr 10, 2006 2:06 pm

Climbing fences with barbed wire when we were kids was a piece of cake.

Susan · Post by **Susan** » Mon Apr 10, 2006 8:31 pm

Its amazing with Audrey's cleaned up version of Harry's photo to clearly be able to see how much wood is actually stacked there! If Andrew was planning on using all that lumber for some project in the future, wouldn't it have made more sense to stack it all in the disused barn? I'm thinking between rain and the brutal New England winters, wouldn't the wood become warped over time from all the moisture? Unless it was indeed saved to be used as firewood?

1bigsteve · Post by **1bigsteve** » Tue Apr 11, 2006 12:20 am

Susan @ Mon Apr 10, 2006 4:31 pm wrote:Its amazing with Audrey's cleaned up version of Harry's photo to clearly be able to see how much wood is actually stacked there! If Andrew was planning on using all that lumber for some project in the future, wouldn't it have made more sense to stack it all in the disused barn? I'm thinking between rain and the brutal New England winters, wouldn't the wood become warped over time from all the moisture? Unless it was indeed saved to be used as firewood?

It is better to keep lumber inside out of the rain untill it is used but maybe Andrew was too tight to hire some young men to stack it in the barn for him.

-1bigsteve (o:

Audrey · Post by **Audrey** » Tue Apr 11, 2006 1:04 am

Susan @ Mon Apr 10, 2006 7:31 pm wrote:Its amazing with Audrey's cleaned up version of Harry's photo to clearly be able to see how much wood is actually stacked there! If Andrew was planning on using all that lumber for some project in the future, wouldn't it have made more sense to stack it all in the disused barn? I'm thinking between rain and the brutal New England winters, wouldn't the wood become warped over time from all the moisture? Unless it was indeed saved to be used as firewood?

It may have been designated for use as firewood-- but if it had been used and painted or treated with a finish it may not have been good for this purpose.

And you are right Susan... It looks about as high as that fence! What was that fence? 6 feet?

1bigsteve · Post by **1bigsteve** » Tue Apr 11, 2006 1:18 am

It look's like 6 feet. Most fences are 6 feet tall. Normal people can't see over a 6 foot fence and a 5 footer is too short. A 7 footer would be a bit tall unless your neighbors are giants. It look's about 6 feet to me.

Treated lumber should NEVER be used as firewood but maybe they didn't realize that in Lizzie's day.

Maybe Andrew broke that hatchet trying to chop that lumber for firewood? Wrong type of hatchet for that.

-1bigsteve (o:

augusta · Post by **augusta** » Tue Apr 11, 2006 9:10 am

Yes, Susan. If the lumber wasn't going to be used soon it should have been in the barn.

Andrew had a guy the cut wood for them. Maybe he was waiting for him to come 'round in the winter to split it into kindling. According to Bridget's testimony, that guy "hadn't been round since last winter".

Freshly cut logs should be left outdoors to dry out, or to 'season' them, for a year before they're burned.

Yes, the cops did search the woodpile and moved every board. I guess they were looking for the axe.

Remember the neighbor lady and her daughter (the Chagnons, was it?) heard something strange about 11 pm on August 3rd. It sure sounded like something going on with the fence/lumber pile area.

I think that if Lizzie had someone else do the killings, he entered over that fence the night before.

What was it about the hay in the barn? When they searched the barn, who said they saw an indentation or shape on the hay that looked like someone had been sleeping there? I think this was contested by someone, who said he did not see that, but someone said they did.