One of the criteria the police look for in suspects is consciousness of guilt. Normally that takes the form of a lie or the fleeing of the scene. Lizzie made a statement on the Saturday evening after the crime which certainly can be interpeted as consciousness of guilt. Here is how Pearson decribes the scene in Studies In Murder (p48+). She is talking with Mayor Coughlin:
"I have a request to make of the family, and that is that you remain in the house for a few days. I believe it would be better if you do so."
Miss Lizzie raised the question:
"Why, is there anybody in this house suspected'?"
The Mayor answered: "Well, perhaps Mr. Morse can answer that question better than I, as his experience last night, perhaps, would justify him in the inference that somebody in the house is suspected."
Miss Lizzie persisted: "I want to know the truth."
And she repeated this remark. Then the Mayor said:
"Well, Miss Borden, I regret to answer, but I must answer yes; you are suspected."
She replied: "I am ready to go now."
Lizzie's reply to me indicates some level of expectation of arrest. Some level of consciousness of guilt.
It always has appeared to me that they are telling Lizzie the public suspects her. Neither the Mayor nor Hilliard say they suspect her. What the public suspects is irrelevant as to her being arrested
"I am ready to go now"
Moderator: Adminlizzieborden
-
Harry
- Posts: 4058
- Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2003 4:28 pm
- Real Name: harry
- Location: South Carolina
-
Haulover
- Posts: 721
- Joined: Thu Apr 22, 2004 2:44 pm
- Real Name: Eugene Hosey
- Location: Sycamore, AL
all i can say is that i'm glad you bring this up, because i've never really understood it from lizzie's point of view. except that it's an indication that lizzie already knows she is being talked about as the killer -- and some irritation on her part that people close to her have not been on the level. but where she says she's ready to go now -- as if to say, bring on the handcuffs, stop the BS -- i'm not sure what to make of it. you'll notice that is included in the movie, and presented as a sort of defiance on her part.
also it is odd that you bring this up, because recently i read brown's interpretation of this--which i could not understand at all.
is she simply saying that if she is the source of any household endangerment, she is more than willling to be removed so that emma and morse will not be threatened?
this has always been one of those cryptic facets of the "strange-acting lizzie." consciousness of guilt and/or consciousness of public opinion -- but her motive in making the statement just that way and what in the world was her expectation when she said it?
was she personally so sick of the situation at home then that she wanted out? i don't know.
also it is odd that you bring this up, because recently i read brown's interpretation of this--which i could not understand at all.
is she simply saying that if she is the source of any household endangerment, she is more than willling to be removed so that emma and morse will not be threatened?
this has always been one of those cryptic facets of the "strange-acting lizzie." consciousness of guilt and/or consciousness of public opinion -- but her motive in making the statement just that way and what in the world was her expectation when she said it?
was she personally so sick of the situation at home then that she wanted out? i don't know.
-
doug65oh
- Posts: 1581
- Joined: Thu Apr 22, 2004 11:26 am
- Real Name:
Interesting observation, Harry - and a valid point, to boot. At the same time - well, it's difficult to imagine that either the Mayor Dr. Coughlin or Marshall Hilliard should necessarily have to reveal that they suspect her. Know what I mean? I suppose my thinking here is merely that Lizzie herself must have known, without having to be told explicitly, "Yes, you are a suspect." It just seems to me logical that she would have known that anyway in due course.
The public? Let 'em eat brioche`- what they might think is ...well, you've said it - vox populi b'damned!
The public? Let 'em eat brioche`- what they might think is ...well, you've said it - vox populi b'damned!
-
Harry
- Posts: 4058
- Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2003 4:28 pm
- Real Name: harry
- Location: South Carolina
It certainly doesn't sound like the statement of an innocent person. If I was innocent I would hardly offer myself up for arrest.
You are right Eugene, it is a cryptic statement that could have several meanings.
It's also interesting in that it's Lizzie who raises the subject of suspicion. It's the first question she asks. Coughlin simply requests that they remain inside for a few days. Of course we may not have the entire conversation leading up to this part.
You are right Eugene, it is a cryptic statement that could have several meanings.
It's also interesting in that it's Lizzie who raises the subject of suspicion. It's the first question she asks. Coughlin simply requests that they remain inside for a few days. Of course we may not have the entire conversation leading up to this part.
-
Yooper
- Posts: 3302
- Joined: Fri Apr 07, 2006 12:12 pm
- Real Name: Jeff
- Location: U.P. Michigan
Lizzie's enigmatic attitude is the difficulty I have with the case. Either she didn't care if they tried and convicted her, assuming guilt, or she didn't believe they could convict an innocent person, assuming innocence. I don't know why she would make any special effort to hide the murder weapon if she didn't care. The other possibility lurking in the shadows is that she committed the murders, Bridget discovered it, and took responsibility for Lizzie after the fact and helped remove or destroy evidence. Maybe Bridget sided with Lizzie in the family arguments and realized Lizzie was close to the breaking point. If Bridget helped her in covering up, she was into it up to her ears as an accessory.
To do is to be. ~Socrates
To be is to do. ~Kant
Do be do be do. ~Sinatra
To be is to do. ~Kant
Do be do be do. ~Sinatra
-
Kat
- Posts: 14770
- Joined: Sun Dec 28, 2003 11:59 pm
- Real Name:
- Location: Central Florida
As a past histrionic young lady myself (I had been interested in The Theatre in high school)- and earned a nickname of Sarah Heartburn- my feelings about this situation was that Lizzie was martyring herself.
I can see her as playing a role in her mind of an accused murderess who will march, in white, head held high and no tears, to the gallows - for whatever reason.
Of course reality struck later!
She might also have been a bit wiped out, overtired, shocked and drugged to some small degree.
I agree, Harry, in that there are probably bits left out of the actual encounter as passed down to us.
I can see her as playing a role in her mind of an accused murderess who will march, in white, head held high and no tears, to the gallows - for whatever reason.
Of course reality struck later!
She might also have been a bit wiped out, overtired, shocked and drugged to some small degree.
I agree, Harry, in that there are probably bits left out of the actual encounter as passed down to us.
-
Yooper
- Posts: 3302
- Joined: Fri Apr 07, 2006 12:12 pm
- Real Name: Jeff
- Location: U.P. Michigan
From a slightly different angle, the only other person left alive in the house was Bridget. If Lizzie planned the murders and wanted to get away with it, why not whack Bridget? She could leave the house with the evidence, dispose of it, and come up with a much better alibi than the one she had.
Good post, Harry! That conversation has always seemed to sum up her attitude, in my opinion.
Good post, Harry! That conversation has always seemed to sum up her attitude, in my opinion.
To do is to be. ~Socrates
To be is to do. ~Kant
Do be do be do. ~Sinatra
To be is to do. ~Kant
Do be do be do. ~Sinatra
-
Haulover
- Posts: 721
- Joined: Thu Apr 22, 2004 2:44 pm
- Real Name: Eugene Hosey
- Location: Sycamore, AL
***As a past histrionic young lady myself (I had been interested in The Theatre in high school)- and earned a nickname of Sarah Heartburn- my feelings about this situation was that Lizzie was martyring herself.***
well, now that is interesting in more ways than one! you paid your theatrical dues -- and then the wicked sister took over the theater? that's funny--that got an audible laugh out of me!
but seriously -- i never really thought of that -- that lizzie was making a theatrical gesture. that would give some credence to the idea that lizzie's sense of reality was off balance. she gets melodramatic when it is NOT time for melodrama -- just like she makes it clear that the dead woman is only a step, not a real one, at a time when such a statement is truly bad form. and then....further, i am reminded of emma's statement in the article (if she in fact said it) in defense of lizzie's "queer" behavior -- as if to acknowledge that, yes, lizzie is odd, but aren't we all sometimes odd?
well, now that is interesting in more ways than one! you paid your theatrical dues -- and then the wicked sister took over the theater? that's funny--that got an audible laugh out of me!
but seriously -- i never really thought of that -- that lizzie was making a theatrical gesture. that would give some credence to the idea that lizzie's sense of reality was off balance. she gets melodramatic when it is NOT time for melodrama -- just like she makes it clear that the dead woman is only a step, not a real one, at a time when such a statement is truly bad form. and then....further, i am reminded of emma's statement in the article (if she in fact said it) in defense of lizzie's "queer" behavior -- as if to acknowledge that, yes, lizzie is odd, but aren't we all sometimes odd?
-
Kat
- Posts: 14770
- Joined: Sun Dec 28, 2003 11:59 pm
- Real Name:
- Location: Central Florida
Granite Street. And she hadn't been there yet- she wasn't invited until Tuesday. 
That's funny, Audrey!
My brothers named me Sarah Heartburn.
Since I am a week off Lizzie's birthday, I thought I might find something in my youth that might correspond to such behaviour. I was very melodramatic until about age 30.
Also religiousity (religiousism?) focuses on martyrdom as well. When were the Mary Mother Of God sightings in the 1800's?
That's funny, Audrey!
My brothers named me Sarah Heartburn.
Since I am a week off Lizzie's birthday, I thought I might find something in my youth that might correspond to such behaviour. I was very melodramatic until about age 30.
Also religiousity (religiousism?) focuses on martyrdom as well. When were the Mary Mother Of God sightings in the 1800's?
-
Harry
- Posts: 4058
- Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2003 4:28 pm
- Real Name: harry
- Location: South Carolina
Just some rambling thoughts.
For the purpose of this discussion I'm coming at it with Lizzie being guilty. In her planning I don't think she ever thought she would be a serious suspect or at least not be the focal point of the investigation. This in some part would explain her weak alibi. Her inquest testimony appears at some times almost made up on the spot, changing to adapt to the questions she's being asked.
If Lizzie was innocent why would she not think that the suspicion felt by the public was still being directed toward Uncle John? Off hand can we recollect when public statements by the police exonerated him? Was it as early as Saturday the day of the Mayors visit? I'll have to look into that.
As for Lizzie being willing to sacrifice herself I find hard to believe. If we believe Lizzie did the crimes to gain her ambition of a life on the Hill how would she ever accomplish it as an accused killer, a suspect who was "ready to go"? It's a pretty damning statement.
Lizzie's asking of the question "who is suspected" twice indicates to me she's searching for what the police think or know. She wants an answer and not getting it the first query asks again. Police are usually wary of people who ask questions like that.
For the purpose of this discussion I'm coming at it with Lizzie being guilty. In her planning I don't think she ever thought she would be a serious suspect or at least not be the focal point of the investigation. This in some part would explain her weak alibi. Her inquest testimony appears at some times almost made up on the spot, changing to adapt to the questions she's being asked.
If Lizzie was innocent why would she not think that the suspicion felt by the public was still being directed toward Uncle John? Off hand can we recollect when public statements by the police exonerated him? Was it as early as Saturday the day of the Mayors visit? I'll have to look into that.
As for Lizzie being willing to sacrifice herself I find hard to believe. If we believe Lizzie did the crimes to gain her ambition of a life on the Hill how would she ever accomplish it as an accused killer, a suspect who was "ready to go"? It's a pretty damning statement.
Lizzie's asking of the question "who is suspected" twice indicates to me she's searching for what the police think or know. She wants an answer and not getting it the first query asks again. Police are usually wary of people who ask questions like that.
-
Audrey
- Posts: 2048
- Joined: Thu Apr 22, 2004 9:14 am
- Real Name:
If she was totally innocent it is odd to me that she (or anyone else) never (at least that we know of) seriously suspected John or Bridget.
Why not?
Innocent people in these types of circumstances generally do not 'what/who to believe anymore' and this type of suspicion can drive a family apart.
As fas as we know, both Emma and Lizzie reacted with remarkable calm following the killings. They remained in the house. They didn't make wild accusations towards Hiram, John or Bridget. Lizzie's seemingly calm, yet bold statement of being 'ready to go now' is odd....
Some might argue that she knew she was innocent and had nothing to fear. Others can say she was guilty and knew she was suspected.
Perhaps she was afraid Emma did suspect her but instead of being fearful she would be convicted she thought this was a way of getting Emma to feel sorry for her-- to rally about her in a sense.
If they both had a hand in the crimes being arrested and tried for it would certainly give her something to hold over Emma for the rest of their lives......
Why not?
Innocent people in these types of circumstances generally do not 'what/who to believe anymore' and this type of suspicion can drive a family apart.
As fas as we know, both Emma and Lizzie reacted with remarkable calm following the killings. They remained in the house. They didn't make wild accusations towards Hiram, John or Bridget. Lizzie's seemingly calm, yet bold statement of being 'ready to go now' is odd....
Some might argue that she knew she was innocent and had nothing to fear. Others can say she was guilty and knew she was suspected.
Perhaps she was afraid Emma did suspect her but instead of being fearful she would be convicted she thought this was a way of getting Emma to feel sorry for her-- to rally about her in a sense.
If they both had a hand in the crimes being arrested and tried for it would certainly give her something to hold over Emma for the rest of their lives......
-
RayS
- Posts: 2508
- Joined: Thu Dec 08, 2005 12:55 pm
- Real Name:
- Location: Bordentown NJ
Two things to keep in mind.
First and foremost, nobody was there with a videotape, tape recorder, wire recorder, or wax phonograph record. Do we really KNOW what was said? Edmund Pearson was a biased source, and may not be reliable. So too some of the newspapers.
Second, was Lizzie still on sulphate of morphine (or whatever it was). Note that opiate derivatives also make a person constipated, which could affect the mental state. But I'm not a medical professional.
I haven't read anything in the last two years, I will try to reread Brown soon (there's a reason for this).
First and foremost, nobody was there with a videotape, tape recorder, wire recorder, or wax phonograph record. Do we really KNOW what was said? Edmund Pearson was a biased source, and may not be reliable. So too some of the newspapers.
Second, was Lizzie still on sulphate of morphine (or whatever it was). Note that opiate derivatives also make a person constipated, which could affect the mental state. But I'm not a medical professional.
I haven't read anything in the last two years, I will try to reread Brown soon (there's a reason for this).
-
RayS
- Posts: 2508
- Joined: Thu Dec 08, 2005 12:55 pm
- Real Name:
- Location: Bordentown NJ
"Consciousness of guilt" is a vague term. Lizzie cetainly didn't tell all that she knew, she kept the secret of the visitor. (Yes, some may disagree with this solution - but it works.)
Since "the maid was not a suspect", that leaves only one left. When Lizzie was correctly acquitted, then there were none left.
Aside from Brown's solution, there is David Kent's book. Kent used a stopwatch to measure the (assumed) time needed for Lizzie's actions. He says people were not accurate to the minute, but his timeline disproves Lizzie's story about being in the barn.
Since "the maid was not a suspect", that leaves only one left. When Lizzie was correctly acquitted, then there were none left.
Aside from Brown's solution, there is David Kent's book. Kent used a stopwatch to measure the (assumed) time needed for Lizzie's actions. He says people were not accurate to the minute, but his timeline disproves Lizzie's story about being in the barn.
-
theebmonique
- Posts: 2772
- Joined: Thu Apr 22, 2004 8:08 am
- Gender: Female
- Real Name: Tracy Townsend
- Location: Ogden, Utah
Here's a site on apparitions of the Blessed Virgin:Kat @ Sat Apr 29, 2006 12:57 am wrote:Granite Street. And she hadn't been there yet- she wasn't invited until Tuesday.
That's funny, Audrey!
My brothers named me Sarah Heartburn.
Since I am a week off Lizzie's birthday, I thought I might find something in my youth that might correspond to such behaviour. I was very melodramatic until about age 30.
Also religiousity (religiousism?) focuses on martyrdom as well. When were the Mary Mother Of God sightings in the 1800's?
http://www.marypages.com/
Probably the most well known apparitions of the 1800'soccurred in Lourdes, France.
http://www.lourdes-france.com/
Other well known apparitions also occurred in:
Guadalupe, Mexico 1531 http://www.sancta.org/
Fatima, Portugal 1917 http://www.fatima.org/
Medjugorje, Yugoslavia (Bosnia-Herzigovina) 1981 http://www.medjugorje.org/
Tracy...
I'm defying gravity and you can't pull me down.
-
Yooper
- Posts: 3302
- Joined: Fri Apr 07, 2006 12:12 pm
- Real Name: Jeff
- Location: U.P. Michigan
Lizzie may have been more suicidal than self-sacrificing. This might have begun as suicide by murder; as long as she had to go, she might as well take her "tormentors" with her. We don't know that she wouldn't have taken the prussic acid herself if she had the opportunity. The whole thing seems desperate to me.
RayS is correct about having only possibly biased testimony in written form. The nuances of speech and body language are missing. There isn't much to infer from a stone statue if that is how she appeared in court.
We are trying to use reason and logic to arrive at a solution and we assume the murderer was as reasonable as we are. People have been trying to unravel this case in that way for quite some time, to no avail. The case doesn't make sense, maybe the murderer didn't either.
RayS is correct about having only possibly biased testimony in written form. The nuances of speech and body language are missing. There isn't much to infer from a stone statue if that is how she appeared in court.
We are trying to use reason and logic to arrive at a solution and we assume the murderer was as reasonable as we are. People have been trying to unravel this case in that way for quite some time, to no avail. The case doesn't make sense, maybe the murderer didn't either.
To do is to be. ~Socrates
To be is to do. ~Kant
Do be do be do. ~Sinatra
To be is to do. ~Kant
Do be do be do. ~Sinatra
-
Audrey
- Posts: 2048
- Joined: Thu Apr 22, 2004 9:14 am
- Real Name:
IMHO Lizzie Borden was never suicidal. She was more of the "change things to suit her" at any cost type.
I agree with Kat... Lizzie was what my kids today call 'attention whores' and I think she reveled in the attention she got while in jail and on trial. I do think she was seriously confused when it was all over and she didn't emerge as the princess of the hill!
I agree with Kat... Lizzie was what my kids today call 'attention whores' and I think she reveled in the attention she got while in jail and on trial. I do think she was seriously confused when it was all over and she didn't emerge as the princess of the hill!
-
DWilly
- Posts: 546
- Joined: Fri Aug 12, 2005 7:15 pm
- Real Name:
I also doubt that Lizzie ever thought about killing herself. I think she felt too entitled to a nicer life to kill herself. She wanted to kill Abby and Andrew and go off and live the way she wanted to.
I think Lizzie was surprised when she realized she was the suspect. I think that she believed that a woman of her position would simply be believed and that the police would indeed go off on a wild goose chase looking for some unknown man. In the meantime she and Emma would be living it up on The Hill. Boy, can you imagine what that first night in jail must have been like for Lizzie? That must have brought her down a peg.
I think Lizzie was surprised when she realized she was the suspect. I think that she believed that a woman of her position would simply be believed and that the police would indeed go off on a wild goose chase looking for some unknown man. In the meantime she and Emma would be living it up on The Hill. Boy, can you imagine what that first night in jail must have been like for Lizzie? That must have brought her down a peg.
-
Harry
- Posts: 4058
- Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2003 4:28 pm
- Real Name: harry
- Location: South Carolina
I can't even imagine Lizzie being suicidal or giving herself up for the sake of another.Audrey @ Sat Apr 29, 2006 4:25 pm wrote:IMHO Lizzie Borden was never suicidal. She was more of the "change things to suit her" at any cost type.
I agree with Kat... Lizzie was what my kids today call 'attention whores' and I think she reveled in the attention she got while in jail and on trial. I do think she was seriously confused when it was all over and she didn't emerge as the princess of the hill!
Kat and I have talked about Lizzie being chauffered about town and smiling gleefully in the back seat while watching the people point to her car as she drove by. We think she rather enjoyed it.
I know I ask perfection of a quite imperfect world
And fool enough to think that's what I'll find
And fool enough to think that's what I'll find
-
Audrey
- Posts: 2048
- Joined: Thu Apr 22, 2004 9:14 am
- Real Name:
I do not think Lizzie would have taken the rap for anyone. Not an alleged illegitimate half brother, not an uncle and not an older sister who may have adored her.
I also think that she would have loved to be the darling of FR society-- but when that did not happen was quite content to be notorious. Attention is attention. Good or bad!
Could this be why she was overly generous to her servants? To keep them adoring her? Could this be why she gave things away anonymously (if she did)? The person she went though would think she was so very kind and wonderful and that would be attention to her.
Her desire for attention may have opened her up to be used and taken advantage of-- and to be manipulated into things she may have not wanted to do, like an affair with an actress for example. (Note, I did say 'may') I think Lizzie had a strong personality but was no match for an extrovert actress like Nance!
I also think that she would have loved to be the darling of FR society-- but when that did not happen was quite content to be notorious. Attention is attention. Good or bad!
Could this be why she was overly generous to her servants? To keep them adoring her? Could this be why she gave things away anonymously (if she did)? The person she went though would think she was so very kind and wonderful and that would be attention to her.
Her desire for attention may have opened her up to be used and taken advantage of-- and to be manipulated into things she may have not wanted to do, like an affair with an actress for example. (Note, I did say 'may') I think Lizzie had a strong personality but was no match for an extrovert actress like Nance!
-
Yooper
- Posts: 3302
- Joined: Fri Apr 07, 2006 12:12 pm
- Real Name: Jeff
- Location: U.P. Michigan
It isn't easy to guess at her motivations. Killing two people for the notariety doesn't seem rational. Killing them for the purpose of inheritance assumes successfully getting away with murder and this also seems irrational. Attempting the purchase of prussic acid in the presence of witnesses with the intent to use it as poison shortly before murdering with a hatchet and hoping the police will chase a phantom male presence would make Lizzie either extremely naive, irrational, or plain stupid.
As far as enjoying the notariety after the fact, perhaps she did. She seemed to be in no hurry to move away if it bothered her.
As far as enjoying the notariety after the fact, perhaps she did. She seemed to be in no hurry to move away if it bothered her.
To do is to be. ~Socrates
To be is to do. ~Kant
Do be do be do. ~Sinatra
To be is to do. ~Kant
Do be do be do. ~Sinatra
-
Kat
- Posts: 14770
- Joined: Sun Dec 28, 2003 11:59 pm
- Real Name:
- Location: Central Florida
Thank you Tracy for the links to the religious sightings!
Also, let me be clear to everyone on my perceived differences between martyr and someone's use of the phrase *self-sacrifice*:
To me they are not the same. The dictionary says:
Martry - 3rd definition, is "a person who assumes an attitude of self-sacrifice or suffering, in order to arouse feelings of pity, guilt etc. in others.
That is my definition as I use the word in relation to Lizzie and this question.
The dictionary defines what I consider a difference in nuance when it says about "self-sacrifice:"
"Sacrifice of one's self or one's own interests for the benefit, or the supposed benefit, of others.
So no, I don't think Lizzie would be suicidal- only maybe as an histrionic statement or threat.
I also don't see her as "self-sacrificing"- only as a romantic figure in her own mind who was going to pretend to martyr herself. That is intended to make others feel bad or guilty or feel pity for her. That's what I think she was doing when she said "I'm ready to go."
I also don't think she intended to go!
I don't think she ever thought she'd be taken to jail, that moment, or any other moment.
Also, let me be clear to everyone on my perceived differences between martyr and someone's use of the phrase *self-sacrifice*:
To me they are not the same. The dictionary says:
Martry - 3rd definition, is "a person who assumes an attitude of self-sacrifice or suffering, in order to arouse feelings of pity, guilt etc. in others.
That is my definition as I use the word in relation to Lizzie and this question.
The dictionary defines what I consider a difference in nuance when it says about "self-sacrifice:"
"Sacrifice of one's self or one's own interests for the benefit, or the supposed benefit, of others.
So no, I don't think Lizzie would be suicidal- only maybe as an histrionic statement or threat.
I also don't see her as "self-sacrificing"- only as a romantic figure in her own mind who was going to pretend to martyr herself. That is intended to make others feel bad or guilty or feel pity for her. That's what I think she was doing when she said "I'm ready to go."
I also don't think she intended to go!
I don't think she ever thought she'd be taken to jail, that moment, or any other moment.
-
Audrey
- Posts: 2048
- Joined: Thu Apr 22, 2004 9:14 am
- Real Name:
I don't think she thought she would be arrested--even when she made that statement. Look at how she acted when she was indicted. Hardly calm and ready for anything. That must have been a big shock for her.
I wonder if she knew she was heavily suspected and thought an investigation, inquest and preliminary hearing would cause them to stop suspecting her?
I wonder if she knew she was heavily suspected and thought an investigation, inquest and preliminary hearing would cause them to stop suspecting her?
-
Kat
- Posts: 14770
- Joined: Sun Dec 28, 2003 11:59 pm
- Real Name:
- Location: Central Florida
-
Yooper
- Posts: 3302
- Joined: Fri Apr 07, 2006 12:12 pm
- Real Name: Jeff
- Location: U.P. Michigan
If they strongly suspected her, they were going to take her away anyway. If she knew that no reasonable guilty person would make the offer, then offering made her appear either unreasonable or not guilty. What was there to lose?
Sometimes the best defense against an attacking bear is to run right at the bear, growling and snarling and showing your teeth. The worst that can happen is that it is over with quickly. The trick is to be right out of "give a damn". This is one definition of desperation.
Sometimes the best defense against an attacking bear is to run right at the bear, growling and snarling and showing your teeth. The worst that can happen is that it is over with quickly. The trick is to be right out of "give a damn". This is one definition of desperation.
-
Angel
- Posts: 2190
- Joined: Tue Nov 23, 2004 3:32 pm
- Real Name:
I do believe that Lizzie enjoyed the drama and the spotlight. She also needed to have her dignity and control over the situation. She could not visualize herself being subjected to getting hauled away by the police in front of the town. It would be way too degrading to the image she had of herself. Rather, whether she was guilty or not, needed to condescend to sweep away voluntarily on her own. Sort of like Norma Desmond coming down the stairs in a spotlighted aura while the masses stood there admiring her.
-
Yooper
- Posts: 3302
- Joined: Fri Apr 07, 2006 12:12 pm
- Real Name: Jeff
- Location: U.P. Michigan
I have to wonder whether someone overly concerned with the pretense of Victorian society would be able to reconcile the up close and personal axe murder of her parents with a "crippled pinkie" pose. If she was guilty, she had just proved to herself, beyond any doubt whatever, that she didn't belong there.
To do is to be. ~Socrates
To be is to do. ~Kant
Do be do be do. ~Sinatra
To be is to do. ~Kant
Do be do be do. ~Sinatra
-
Allen
- Posts: 3408
- Joined: Mon Dec 06, 2004 3:38 pm
- Gender: Female
- Real Name: Me
Could it be that she was just on a fishing expedition? The Mayor had just told her that she was suspected, maybe she wanted to see how far that suspicion ran. As in do they have evidence against me or is it just suspicion? Lizzie doesn't strike me as someone who would be able to stand not knowing whether they had anything on her or not. I think it would eat away at her. Putting yourself out there as being ready to go would be a good way to gage this. She'd either be hauled away, or they would say 'oh no don't be silly we don't even have anything to support that'. But either way she'd find out something about what they possibly knew. Maybe Lizzie was counting on the 'oh don't be silly'. I think it also shows defiance. If I do go, I'm going on my own terms not yours.
"He who cannot put his thoughts on ice should not enter into the head of dispute." - Friedrich Nietzsche
-
Susan
- Posts: 2361
- Joined: Thu Apr 22, 2004 11:26 pm
- Real Name:
- Location: California
I think Melissa is on to something too. After the Mayor requests the family to stay in the house and Lizzie immediately asks if someone in the house was a suspect sounds to me like someone who has a guilty conscience and is fishing for info. And after the explanation about Uncle John's experience with the crowd the night before, I would think Lizzie's next question would have been something like, "So, Uncle John is a suspect in these killings?" Instead Lizzie seems to gloss over that and want information on someone else who is a suspect, namely her.
If it is true, as Emma states, about trying to keep it from Lizzie as long as they could, how did Lizzie find out what was going on in people's minds and when? Could it have been when Lizzie and Emma left the house for the funeral service, could someone have leaned in close enough to Lizzie and hissed in her ear, "Murderess", only so that she could hear it?
And her statement about being ready to go now and the attributed "Or at any time" does have a ring of matyrdom and histrionics about it. Trying to prove that she has nothing to hide, but, then burning a dress shortly thereafter. Hmmm, I think the lady doth protest to much.
If it is true, as Emma states, about trying to keep it from Lizzie as long as they could, how did Lizzie find out what was going on in people's minds and when? Could it have been when Lizzie and Emma left the house for the funeral service, could someone have leaned in close enough to Lizzie and hissed in her ear, "Murderess", only so that she could hear it?
And her statement about being ready to go now and the attributed "Or at any time" does have a ring of matyrdom and histrionics about it. Trying to prove that she has nothing to hide, but, then burning a dress shortly thereafter. Hmmm, I think the lady doth protest to much.
“Sometimes when we are generous in small, barely detectable ways it can change someone else's life forever.”-Margaret Cho comedienne
-
Kat
- Posts: 14770
- Joined: Sun Dec 28, 2003 11:59 pm
- Real Name:
- Location: Central Florida
Yes it sounds like a combination, Missy, of those 2 things.
It answers my question as to why, if someone were guilty, to offer to go now. It also answers if she didn't do it. But she certainly puts herself right out there immediately- meaning very soon in the investigation, and involves the spotlight on her.
A problem here sometimes with this question is that we've all seen how Elizabeth Montgomery (Bless Her) played that scene.
It answers my question as to why, if someone were guilty, to offer to go now. It also answers if she didn't do it. But she certainly puts herself right out there immediately- meaning very soon in the investigation, and involves the spotlight on her.
A problem here sometimes with this question is that we've all seen how Elizabeth Montgomery (Bless Her) played that scene.
-
nbcatlover
- Posts: 1221
- Joined: Thu Jul 21, 2005 5:10 pm
- Gender: Female
- Real Name: nbcatlover
- Location: New Bedford, MA
Borderline Personality Disorder
I invite you to think of Lizzie and read the following:
http://www.palace.net/~llama/psych/bpd.html#kern
I'm taking a Psych Nursing class and was told that the old term "kleptomaniac" usually fell into this category.
The curious thing about this disorder is the way the person splits her thinking of people as absolute good or absolutely bad; however, in clinical situations, the person generates the same feelings among the staff. They either love or hate the patient. The rule of thumb is if people have opinions of a person which are creates teams of diametrically opposing views, suspect Borderline Personality Disorder.
Personally, I found a lot of features that seemed to fit the Lizzie Borden persona.
http://www.palace.net/~llama/psych/bpd.html#kern
I'm taking a Psych Nursing class and was told that the old term "kleptomaniac" usually fell into this category.
The curious thing about this disorder is the way the person splits her thinking of people as absolute good or absolutely bad; however, in clinical situations, the person generates the same feelings among the staff. They either love or hate the patient. The rule of thumb is if people have opinions of a person which are creates teams of diametrically opposing views, suspect Borderline Personality Disorder.
Personally, I found a lot of features that seemed to fit the Lizzie Borden persona.
-
Kat
- Posts: 14770
- Joined: Sun Dec 28, 2003 11:59 pm
- Real Name:
- Location: Central Florida
Wow, that's really sad!
I wasn't aware that emotion played so important a role in a Borderline.
There were features listed there that fit some people I've known, but not all of those traits- just a few.
As for Lizzie- I could see some of it. Especially the part of all hate or all love. And a bit of it reminds me of the way she talked to Alice the Wednesday night before the murders.
I wasn't aware that emotion played so important a role in a Borderline.
There were features listed there that fit some people I've known, but not all of those traits- just a few.
As for Lizzie- I could see some of it. Especially the part of all hate or all love. And a bit of it reminds me of the way she talked to Alice the Wednesday night before the murders.
-
RayS
- Posts: 2508
- Joined: Thu Dec 08, 2005 12:55 pm
- Real Name:
- Location: Bordentown NJ
Isn't the likely reason that Lizzie kept her eyes and ears open, and got an idea what could happen. Today, if anyone was found on a similar murder scene and said "it wasn't the maid or anyone who worked for the victim" you just know they would be under great pressure to talk. "Either talk or be charged with the crime!" IMOSusan @ Mon May 01, 2006 9:37 pm wrote:I think Melissa is on to something too. After the Mayor requests the family to stay in the house and Lizzie immediately asks if someone in the house was a suspect sounds to me like someone who has a guilty conscience and is fishing for info. And after the explanation about Uncle John's experience with the crowd the night before, I would think Lizzie's next question would have been something like, "So, Uncle John is a suspect in these killings?" Instead Lizzie seems to gloss over that and want information on someone else who is a suspect, namely her.
If it is true, as Emma states, about trying to keep it from Lizzie as long as they could, how did Lizzie find out what was going on in people's minds and when? Could it have been when Lizzie and Emma left the house for the funeral service, could someone have leaned in close enough to Lizzie and hissed in her ear, "Murderess", only so that she could hear it?
And her statement about being ready to go now and the attributed "Or at any time" does have a ring of matyrdom and histrionics about it. Trying to prove that she has nothing to hide, but, then burning a dress shortly thereafter. Hmmm, I think the lady doth protest to much.
-
serendipity
- Posts: 10
- Joined: Sun Jul 09, 2006 3:07 am
- Real Name:
One POV is this line of conversation was a temporary tension breaker by Lizzie.
If she did it, however cool she appeared on the outside there would have been almost unbrearable continuous inner turmoil. She has to play I've got a secret, but can't tell.
By implying arrest me now or get off my back, she gets a respite.
If innocent there have a been a similar turmoil, though to a lesser degree.
A bit off topic, was she the only person put on morphine?
If she did it, however cool she appeared on the outside there would have been almost unbrearable continuous inner turmoil. She has to play I've got a secret, but can't tell.
By implying arrest me now or get off my back, she gets a respite.
If innocent there have a been a similar turmoil, though to a lesser degree.
A bit off topic, was she the only person put on morphine?