Lizzie's attributes

Audrey · Post by **Audrey** » Sat Apr 29, 2006 9:45 pm

What do you think/feel/sense were some of Lizzie's good and not so good qualities.

Even if she was a cold blooded murderer she had to have some good qualities. If she was a total innocent victim in all of this-- well everyone has faults!

I think she was selfish, manipulative and rather a dullard.

I also think she could be truly generous and thoughful at times-- but wonder if she had an agenda when doing so. Did she really let those boys shake the pear trees? (Radin)

Can she have been guilty and still have been an OK person?

Likewise-- can she have been innocent and still been a witch?

Yooper · Post by **Yooper** » Sat Apr 29, 2006 10:11 pm

My first impression of her was that of the perpetual spoiled brat. She grew up in a household where she was the youngest child by a good margin.

DWilly · Post by **DWilly** » Sat Apr 29, 2006 10:28 pm

I think Lizzie was spoiled and oddly enough I think she was something of a Daddy's Little Girl. I don't think she was stupid but I do think she was lazy and not very motivated. There were women around during her time who were out and making a life for themselves. Lizzie just wanted to lounge around and dabble in things she thought made her look cultured. It never occurred to Lizzie to simply do something on her own to make money.

As to her other side. Yeah, she could be nice. It appears she was nice to her servants. I haven't heard of anything saying she was abusive. I think on one level she wanted to be loved. Of course, that opened her up to being used by Nance O'Neil.

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Sun Apr 30, 2006 8:15 am

Yes, IMHO spoiled ranks right up there. Stubborn and immature as well. Strong willed also comes to mind.

On the other hand, she was generous, and despite having social ambitions did not assume airs. I believe her love of animals was genuine.

Like us all, a mixed bag of traits. However, living in 1892, with its far more rigid rules of "normalcy" would make it far harder for acceptance than todays relaxed norms.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Mon May 01, 2006 4:29 am

I have this weird feeling that there were things about her that were uncivilized. I don't think she understood human affection. Part of this comes from her answer to Knowlton as to whether Andrew and Abby were happily united. I don't think she gave it a thought until he asked.
It's a sort of Narcissism, I guess.
Also, I don't think she felt empathy. I think she did not do things right- correctly- and that she was socially immature.
I'm reminded of the stories that she would drive up in her big car on the first day of school and give that *slow* child gifts. I've always thought that that was a very weird expression of philanthropy. What about the other kids? Wouldn't that make them jealous or feel left out? And that also draws a lot of attention to herself. She could have done that in privacy before school started.
If this story is simply a tale, it could still have some basis in fact, as a symbol of how natives thought she acted- tho I consider it inappropriate.
When Emma left, Lizzie became Lizbeth and the story there is that they never spoke again. That is uncivilized behavior. One does not treat their only sibling like that. A sister yet! Who went through with Lizzie what she went through. And Lizzie was disrespectful about Abby to others, in public (so to speak). That is not done. One keeps family difficulties private.
I don't think she knew how to act.
I think there was something missing in her.
Charity begins at home and yet she was pretty dismissive of her step-mother's family. They had suffered a loss too, but we don't see any pity for them for their suffering. I call it uncivilized.
Yes, she could be nice to her servants and her pets but they depended on her and she either paid them or took care of them.
I don't really see any good qualities- but then people were different back then.

Yooper · Post by **Yooper** » Mon May 01, 2006 8:48 am

She declined to answer whether her relationship with Abby was mother/daughter. I don't think she knew what that was and she was simply answering honestly. Emma probably squelched any attempt at that relationship.

This is the first I've heard about her gifts to "slow" children. She may have realized the recognition the other children would get in the classroom and wanted to recognize those not likely to achieve that. Perhaps an attempt to even up the feelings of being left out which would have to be done publicly.

Audrey · Post by **Audrey** » Mon May 01, 2006 9:57 am

Oh I do agree that she was lacking in some way and didn't know how to act like Kat said-- and I also think she knew that she was lacking in some way and this is what drove most of her actions.

Yooper · Post by **Yooper** » Mon May 01, 2006 10:00 am

So perhaps she resigned herself to "be" rather than to "act".

theebmonique · Post by **theebmonique** » Mon May 01, 2006 12:06 pm

Audrey @ Mon May 01, 2006 7:57 am wrote:Oh I do agree that she was lacking in some way and didn't know how to act like Kat said-- and I also think she knew that she was lacking in some way and this is what drove most of her actions.

So it is possible perhaps, that some of her actions were over-compensation for some of what she knew she lacked...

Tracy...

Audrey · Post by **Audrey** » Mon May 01, 2006 12:53 pm

theebmonique @ Mon May 01, 2006 11:06 am wrote:
Audrey @ Mon May 01, 2006 7:57 am wrote:Oh I do agree that she was lacking in some way and didn't know how to act like Kat said-- and I also think she knew that she was lacking in some way and this is what drove most of her actions.
So it is possible perhaps, that some of her actions were over-compensation for some of what she knew she lacked...

Tracy...

Perhaps-- But I think she spent a good deal of her time trying to pretend and hide what she thought might be wrong with her-- Not trying to see what she might be able to do to improve herself or truly be a better person.

IMHO, Lizzie Borden felt that was simply not good enough and spent the majority of her time and emotional energy pretending otherwise.

Angel · Post by **Angel** » Mon May 01, 2006 1:11 pm

That's definitely a trait of a narcissist. I don't know if Lizzie was one, but I do know narcissists (I was raised by one- not a lot of fun) and the main thing is that they don't get enough positive bonding with their parents so they turn their needs inward towards themselves and make themselves the most important person in the world because they are the only ones they can trust. They are like a shell, so they really don't have any sense of worth. They take what they consider important and make that into their personalities, but they are only acting the way they they want to be perceived instead of truly being that way. If that is questioned in any way they become extremely defensive because they feel others are trying to destroy them.

Susan · Post by **Susan** » Mon May 01, 2006 10:10 pm

Ugh, I've been dealing with a friend who just broke-up with a narcissist and all the aftershocks that she has caused. Like taking money from her mother or my frined's bank account because she feels entitled to it because she had a bad week and doesn't see whats wrong with it or how it will affect others. If Lizzie was truly a narcissist it could explain quite a few of her actions. It reminds me of that statement made by Alice Russell about how Lizzie and Emma both would have liked to have been cultured girls. But, they weren't in her estimation, could it have been the putting on of airs? Or was it more like their behaviour and actions were as common as dirt? Later descriptions of Lizzie about the time when she had met Nance talk her her quiet refinement and breeding and such. Could it have been after many years Lizzie finally learned how to play her role as "lady" to the hilt?

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Tue May 02, 2006 4:09 am

Yooper @ Mon May 01, 2006 8:48 am wrote:This is the first I've heard about her gifts to "slow" children. She may have realized the recognition the other children would get in the classroom and wanted to recognize those not likely to achieve that. Perhaps an attempt to even up the feelings of being left out which would have to be done publicly.

I'm sorry to not provide the source for this story. But I re-ran into it lately during the past month, which was a busy one for editing the magazine. So I have looked over so many sources, I cannot come up with this one. It may be the LBQ? Harry or Diana would know.
However, it's not "gifts to slow children"- it was gifts to a *slow* child. It was a story told by the City Deed Registrar person (or someone like that)- to a researcher- but I think the story is told in more than one place.
We shouldn't comment further until the source is discovered.

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Tue May 02, 2006 8:09 am

It's the last words in Radin's book, Lizzie Borden: The Untold Story:

"While I [Radin] was still searching for the elusive official trial minutes, I visited the clerks office of the Superior Court in Taunton. Mrs. Estella Margarido, the head clerk, kindly conducted a long and arduous search through tons of records without success. Before leaving, I chatted with her for a few moments. She was young, had never lived in Fall River, and seemed unlikely to know anything firsthand about Lizzie Borden. I idly remarked that I was trying to find people who had seen and known Lizzie and could tell me things they knew personally.
"Well, I know something about her," she said unexpectedly. "When I was a little girl I went to the Hornbine School. It was a one-room schoolhouse at the edge of Swansea. There was a boy attending the school who you might say was feeble-minded. He never learned anything but he sat quietly and it was a way of keeping him out of mischief. Every year on the day school opened, a large black car, with a woman in back and a chauffeur in front, would pull up to the school and the boy would run to the car. The woman always had some presents for him: clothes, some simple toys that could keep him amused, and some pocket money. This went on year after year while I was attending the school. The woman was Lizzie Borden. The boy lived on a farm not far from her place in Swansea."
She paused and looked out of a window at the busy, stream of traffic beyond the courthouse square. "You know," she said softly, almost as if speaking to herself, "they say so many terrible things about Lizzie Borden. I saw those gifts and I realized how much care and thought went into selecting them to make certain they would be appropriate for a boy like that. I have never believed she could be as bad as they say."

theebmonique · Post by **theebmonique** » Tue May 02, 2006 8:21 am

Thanks for the source Harry. This is such a good story about Lizzie. I think she had some very kind and loving traits at least somewhere deep inside but struggled with how to show them. She tried at times, but just couldn't get it right.
Tracy...

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Tue May 02, 2006 11:29 am

Do we know if maybe there was some sort of relationship between Lizzie and this boy? That would be my very first question. How and why did Lizzie come to start giving him gifts? I am always a little skeptical of stories like this as well, has it been verified in any way?

DWilly · Post by **DWilly** » Tue May 02, 2006 3:00 pm

Allen @ Tue May 02, 2006 11:29 am wrote:Do we know if maybe there was some sort of relationship between Lizzie and this boy? That would be my very first question. How and why did Lizzie come to start giving him gifts? I am always a little skeptical of stories like this as well, has it been verified in any way?

I don't know if anyone has checked the story out. If the boy lived in Swansea I assume he went to school there. How many schools were in Swansea? I'd love to know how old that clerk was who told the story. If I did, and if I still had my Ancestry.com subscription, I'd look up a census report and start looking at homes near Lizzie's farm. Find a boy about the right age. I know in some census reports they tell you if a person could read and write. Would a "slow" child be literate? I also know the census reports would say things like, "in school" etc.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Tue May 02, 2006 11:19 pm

Thanks Harry!
Lizzie had a local cousin who married a cousin, and their child was supposedly feeble. However I think the dates might be a bit off?
But still, that's who I think of first, Missy- the Morse who married a Morse. The story's setting could have been changed.

The boy I'm thinking of is in Uncle John's will, and Emma's will as well (#12)
Maybe Lizzie left him out if she gave him stuff during her lifetime?
I'm not saying it's him.