Bob Gutowski @ Fri Apr 07, 2006 1:18 pm wrote:This is also disgusting to imagine, but what if the poisoner was putting her own stool (no, not the one she sat on that's at The FRHS!) in her parents' food? It certainly wouldn't show up in the forensic tests of the day, would it?
Very possible, Bob.
I saw a movie a few years ago with Pam Dawber as a mother who infected her own son with her own stool to get attention from the medical staff. It was based on a true story. Veronica Hamill played the Doctor who nailed that sick mother to the wall.
I don't know how that would work, from a medical standpoint if the "donor" does not have a disease, but it is a possibility I guess. Audrey seems to know something about medical stuff so maybe she can give us an idea.
-1bigsteve (o:
"All of your tomorrows begin today. Move it!" -Susan Hayward 1973
Allen @ Fri Apr 07, 2006 3:30 pm wrote:That's sort of a vague statement is there anything else to support the fact that Mr. Eddy was actually sick? That Andrew 'sent him over to see' how Mr. Eddy was doesn't necessarily have to imply that he was sick. There are times I'll go to visit someone, and when asked where I'm going I'll say that I'm going to see how so and so is doing. But that doesn't mean that the person I'm going to see is sick.
Yes one of the men was sick. Yes there is testimony to that.
I'm only pointing out that it was Mr. Eddy, not Mr. Johnson, I believe.
According to Charles Gifford of Swansea, it was Johnson who was ill. In the LB Sourcebook, the first article has the following under "Went Away to Swansey":
...Mr. Gifford says that the only Portuguese employed on the upper farm is Mr. Johnson, and he is confined to his bed by illness.
Not that newpaper reports are 100% accurate, then or now, but I found that interesting.
Also interesting, according to Rebello, Mr. Johnson was continued to reside at the farm and work as a laborer and a coachman for Emma and Lizzie from 1895 to 1898. He was not gotten rid of in any short order.
Well, Eddy died by 1898.
Seriously tho, maybe they both were sick?
I haven't looked this up in a while as to which man was sick, so thank you for the info- tho Johnson wasn't Portuguese.
"Q. Did you then say anything to her, or she to you?
A. I spoke to her.
Q. What was said?
A. I said "Miss Borden, where were you when your father was killed"? She said "I was in the barn". I said "is there any Portuguese working on the farm over the River for your father?' She said "no sir". "Who works for your father?" She says "Mr. Eddy, and Mr. Johnson; and Mr. Eddy has been sick." ..."
I know I ask perfection of a quite imperfect world
And fool enough to think that's what I'll find
In reading the previous posts, I think switching from poison to hatchet is inconsistent, unless time is of the essence. If Abby and/or Andrew must be dead by Friday (or whenever), by whatever means, then it makes sense. It strikes me as either desperate or very stupid to attempt to purchase a controlled substance like prussic acid with the intent to use it as a poison right away.
To do is to be. ~Socrates
To be is to do. ~Kant
Do be do be do. ~Sinatra
Yes, going out into the world within 2 or 3 blocks of home and asking for a volatile poison is bound to grab attention, or be memorable.
But it almost sounds as desperate as switiching to a hatchet, because it is fast-acting.
Kat, your line about "going out into the world" got me thinking about just how naive Lizzie may have been. She may have thought she was beyond reproach and could purchase what she wished without question. While we know that being an upper-class female played a large part in the outcome of the trial, how much of this perspective was justified? How insulated from "the world" was she? This doesn't remove the possibility of desperation, but I may be guilty of assuming that she was more aware of things than she really was.
To do is to be. ~Socrates
To be is to do. ~Kant
Do be do be do. ~Sinatra
I agree... I think Lizzie felt a sense of entitlement and may have thought she would not be challenged in her actions..... I think this not only pertained to the Prussic Acid but to the police and inhabitants of FR not daring to question her innocence or statements after the deaths.
Hydrogen cyanide "prussic acid" is NOT a stealth poison. It works too quickly for the poisoner to get an alibi, unlike the usual arsenic.
It is more likely to be found in industrial accidents, like the murder indictments circa 1994 in Chicago (workmen killed by chemicals).
Also, it may be easier to detect than arsenic (blue flesh from lack of oxygen in victims).
It was used in the "L-pills" of WW II espionage stories.
I am reading the very, very funny comic novel The Shroud of the Thwacker by Chris Elliott. It's a loving spoof of books like The Alienist and Time and Again. I just read a passage last night in which a character offered another two prussic acid capsules to help with a headache and I thought "How many people are getting this joke?"
Audrey @ Wed Apr 12, 2006 8:20 am wrote:I agree... I think Lizzie felt a sense of entitlement and may have thought she would not be challenged in her actions..... I think this not only pertained to the Prussic Acid but to the police and inhabitants of FR not daring to question her innocence or statements after the deaths.
Could very well be. Lizzie may have felt too hoitty toitty to be "bothered." She may have already felt "rich", before the money got into her hands. Remind's me of the scene in "The Unsinkable Molly Brown" when Debbie Reynolds, after attempting to develop some "grace and good manners", say's, "We're second generation now." I think Lizzie was thinking of herself as "second generation."
-1bigsteve (o:
"All of your tomorrows begin today. Move it!" -Susan Hayward 1973
Well, *going out into the world* as opposed to mail order.
I don't know if one could order prussic acid thru the catalogue, but poisons could be ordered and delivered (to a POBox?) and no one know the difference.
No, Stuart, but I've just reserved it through the NYPL website. Thanks!
Who popped up in Thwacker but our girl? The book is intentionally and comically anachronistic, so even though it takes place in 1882, Elliott has no problem with saying "Wandering around the place, he felt that it all seemed very familiar to him - the wax figure of George Washington hacking down a cherry tree, Lizzy (sic) Borden hacking down her mother, and Peter Stuyvesant hacking down Native Americans."
Kat @ Thu Apr 13, 2006 4:36 am wrote:Well, *going out into the world* as opposed to mail order.
I don't know if one could order prussic acid thru the catalogue, but poisons could be ordered and delivered (to a POBox?) and no one know the difference.
I think there were controls on what could be sent through the mails then. The guild of pharmacists may have prevented this, unless someone else bought it in another state then mailed the package to Fall River? What were the laws in other states? I'm pretty sure that most states had a "poison register" by the Civil War. They did in England 1840s (?).
Bob Gutowski @ Fri Apr 07, 2006 1:18 pm wrote:This is also disgusting to imagine, but what if the poisoner was putting her own stool (no, not the one she sat on that's at The FRHS!) in her parents' food? It certainly wouldn't show up in the forensic tests of the day, would it?
Very possible, Bob.
I saw a movie a few years ago with Pam Dawber as a mother who infected her own son with her own stool to get attention from the medical staff. It was based on a true story. Veronica Hamill played the Doctor who nailed that sick mother to the wall.
I don't know how that would work, from a medical standpoint if the "donor" does not have a disease, but it is a possibility I guess. Audrey seems to know something about medical stuff so maybe she can give us an idea.
-1bigsteve (o:
Hi, I'm not Audrey but it is possible to get sick by ingesting stools if the stool is contaminated with the E. coli strain O157:H7. That's why it is so important to wash our hands after we go to the bathroom. E. coli O157:H7 can also cause illness if contaminated animal stool is ingested. Untreated water is another source for contamination.
Most E. coli infections are mild. Even the one caused by the O157:H7 strain. But it still can be serious or fatal. Onset of symtoms can be anywhere from a few hours to several days.
E. coli O157:H7 can be transmitted through inadvertent contact with fecal matter during processing of animal foods or because of improper food handling. Improper handling may include contamination by infected food handlers who have not effectively washed their hands before touching the food or utensils that come into contact with the food.
Thanks for the information. Makes me want to cancel my next Big Mac or Whopper.
As it relates to the Bordens, I can't imagine that their hand washing, even if done after handling possible sources, was very effective. They probably used just plain water. And cold water at that.
Would Andrew or even Abby handle the uncooked food? I can see Abby helping Bridget but not Andrew and certainly not Lizzie.
If the food, raw or cooked, was contaminated would it not give off some smell? Perhaps not sufficient enough in the early stages to be noticeable.
We know that they had mutton and swordfish leading up to the 4th. I didn't see either listed specifically but salmonella is mentioned. Isn't that associated with fish and chicken? I'm no doctor here!
Also unpasturized milk was mentioned. The milk was checked but would tests in those days have picked up e-coli?
I know I ask perfection of a quite imperfect world
And fool enough to think that's what I'll find
I have to wonder what the hygiene awareness level was. They ate week-old food stored in an icebox, the equivalent of a camping cooler. Andrew emptied his slop pail in the yard and proceeded to pick up pears for family consumption. E.coli could be picked up by scraping the horse exhaust off your shoes. Women dragged their long dresses through the same stuff, specifically, the silk dresses!
If Abby or Andrew did the marketing, either one of them could have handled the food. I wonder if milk from their own farm would have been checked, if that's where they got it.
To do is to be. ~Socrates
To be is to do. ~Kant
Do be do be do. ~Sinatra
Bob Gutowski @ Thu Apr 13, 2006 2:31 pm wrote:No, Stuart, but I've just reserved it through the NYPL website. Thanks!
Who popped up in Thwacker but our girl? The book is intentionally and comically anachronistic, so even though it takes place in 1882, Elliott has no problem with saying "Wandering around the place, he felt that it all seemed very familiar to him - the wax figure of George Washington hacking down a cherry tree, Lizzy (sic) Borden hacking down her mother, and Peter Stuyvesant hacking down Native Americans."
I'm going to challenge you on that statement about Stuyvesant. It sounds like the Native Americans were just living peacefully and were savaged by those Bad Dutchmen? In fact, the history I read about 17th century Dutch was that they bought their lands from the Native Americans, then turned the soil to raise crops, etc. The Native Americans certainly had their feuds with their neighbors, not unlike some Europeans (and others).
Can you tell me what history book you got this information from?
As a practical matter, it is usually cheaper to buy than to conquer. Your experiences may differ.
My readings say that E. coli is normally found in the digestive tract and produces no problem. Its when those outputs return as input you have a problem.
Interesting, cows and other organism do eat grass & stuff without any seeming problems. Don't touch those cow patties!
Bob Gutowski @ Thu Apr 13, 2006 2:31 pm wrote:No, Stuart, but I've just reserved it through the NYPL website. Thanks!
Who popped up in Thwacker but our girl? The book is intentionally and comically anachronistic, so even though it takes place in 1882, Elliott has no problem with saying "Wandering around the place, he felt that it all seemed very familiar to him - the wax figure of George Washington hacking down a cherry tree, Lizzy (sic) Borden hacking down her mother, and Peter Stuyvesant hacking down Native Americans."
I'm going to challenge you on that statement about Stuyvesant. It sounds like the Native Americans were just living peacefully and were savaged by those Bad Dutchmen? In fact, the history I read about 17th century Dutch was that they bought their lands from the Native Americans, then turned the soil to raise crops, etc. The Native Americans certainly had their feuds with their neighbors, not unlike some Europeans (and others).
Can you tell me what history book you got this information from?
As a practical matter, it is usually cheaper to buy than to conquer. Your experiences may differ.
Bob isn't saying he believes this, but that the book states it--jestingly and anachronistically.
We already know the book is not accurate; it accuses Lizzie of killing her mother, whereas Abby was her stepmother.
Lynn
There is science, logic, reason; there is thought verified by experience. And then there is California. --Edward Abbey
Yooper @ Mon May 08, 2006 9:13 am wrote:I have to wonder what the hygiene awareness level was. They ate week-old food stored in an icebox, the equivalent of a camping cooler. Andrew emptied his slop pail in the yard and proceeded to pick up pears for family consumption. E.coli could be picked up by scraping the horse exhaust off your shoes. Women dragged their long dresses through the same stuff, specifically, the silk dresses!
If Abby or Andrew did the marketing, either one of them could have handled the food. I wonder if milk from their own farm would have been checked, if that's where they got it.
I'm sure Andy knew enough not to spill his liquids on the fallen pears. I read that "mud" was the polite term for liquified horse manure. It was known to be bad, but the Horse Industrial Complex was too powerful to be banned from the streets. Besides, people used to let their pigs run around the way some dogs do today.
If humans were so fragile, they would have gone extinct thousands of years ago.
I understand that women wore "street dresses" with shorter skirts just to avoid this problem. Most people walked around in those days. Some say that is why the British are healthier than Americans (who are forced to buy cars and gasoline because of the power of Big Oil). I'm old enough to remember when most people walked since shopping, jobs, movies, and churches were all less than a mile away. Your results may vary.
In fact Abby was her mother. Given the sickness disease and death of the 19th century (Sarah Borden) it was very common to have stepbrothers and stepsisters in a family. Lizzie seemed to have been sort of defiant, even if she was 32 years old.
Yes, there are as many stories as a writer can create for entertainment.
I wonder how Richard Nixon will be judged by the history books in the late 21st century. And what's new with OJ?
Technically, I don't think the Borden food was "week-old."
It's unsure when the mutton was first cooked- either Saturday or Sunday.
I've been informed here in the past by a poster that Bridget would not be cooking on a Sunday. I'm not sure about that- but we know then the mutton was cooked Saturday or Sunday. By Thursday, that still was not a week old. But it probably seemed like it!
The Borden's had pork steak for breakfast the morning Abby went to see Dr. Bowen.
The swordfish was *twice-warmed.* I think the swordfish was Tuesday. Abby seemed to think there was something wrong with the *baker's bread.* Meaning bread brought into the house- not made at home.
The milk was suspect, we know, because they saved samples of it- however, not samples of Tuesday's milk. This is just to fill people in on the menu that week.
I had asked my sister-in-law *The Doctor* if people back then had higher immunities to stuff like this- bad water, food that is a bit *off* and she said they did, unlike today. They would have built up a sort of tolerance.
