Lizzie's Aspirations

Yooper · Post by **Yooper** » Mon May 15, 2006 1:48 am

While we're all aware that Lizzie and Emma wanted a nicer house than the one at 92 Second Street, what else were they seeking in the way of acceptance? What do we know about the segment of society they sought to be a part of?

There was a large gap between the "old money" and the "nouveau riche" groups, especially at that time, and fitting in with the "old money" group would never be allowed. If that was the aim it was doomed from the start, and I wonder if Lizzie and Emma were aware of this.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Mon May 15, 2006 3:06 am

It's possible that Lizzie thought she could enter society after her acquittal. She did end up next door to the new A.G., Swift. I think they bought their homes just about the same time.
She wrote that letter to Brayton about the noisy bird, "just because she could"- as has been decribed to me.
I don't think Emma cared one way or the other. But Lizzie was a social being after her late *blossoming* when she joined the Church charities. Before the murders it was claimed she was out a lot during the day.
Now, in 1893, she had the name and the money to back it up. I think she was deluded.

DWilly · Post by **DWilly** » Mon May 15, 2006 9:17 am

About the only thing I think Emma wanted was to have a nicer home. That's it. Emma didn't show any signs of wanting to do anything else prior to the murder and she didn't show anything after the murder.

As for Lizzie, I think she wanted a nicer home and to be thought of as a sort of genteel lady. Well read, maybe a little active in the community. Not much else. Even before the murder Lizzie was pretty conservative. I don't think there are any signs she was involved with the Women's Suffrage Movement or anything like that. She like to eat, read and go to the theater.

theebmonique · Post by **theebmonique** » Mon May 15, 2006 9:21 am

Wasn't there a prominent 'suffragette' who openly supported Lizzie's innocence ?

Tracy...

Audrey · Post by **Audrey** » Mon May 15, 2006 9:30 am

I think about the report that Lizzie went to church and was ignored and snubbed.... I wonder of she thought of this as her 'entrance' . I think she was bitterly disappointed and hurt-- and instead of resigning herself to it she got mad and developed a 'up yours' mentality and eventually enjoyed her notoriety.

Angel · Post by **Angel** » Mon May 15, 2006 11:14 am

I was thinking the same thing. She had gotten so much support from the town people during the trial she probably thought it would continue afterwards. She probably was shocked when she had anticipated all the admiration she had craved all her life and then found she was having backs turned on her.

DWilly · Post by **DWilly** » Mon May 15, 2006 12:12 pm

theebmonique @ Mon May 15, 2006 9:21 am wrote:Wasn't there a prominent 'suffragette' who openly supported Lizzie's innocence ?

Tracy...

There were several. Including Mary Livermore. My point was that Lizzie did not become active in the suffragette movement. There are no signs that I am aware of that Lizzie ever did anything. She knew suffragettes, but that was about it.

RayS · Post by **RayS** » Mon May 15, 2006 12:51 pm

theebmonique @ Mon May 15, 2006 9:21 am wrote:Wasn't there a prominent 'suffragette' who openly supported Lizzie's innocence ?

Tracy...

Frank Spiering's book is valuable for the background material not found in other's works. The WCTU supported Lizzie (she let them use an office building, important today for various groups that don't have money to rent an office). Later there was a falling-out (no details?).
One alcohol prohibitionist was famous for using a hatchet in saloons (Carrie Nation). The thing here is a man will usually look foolish in fighting with a woman. Especially if she is armed and knows how to use it.

RayS · Post by **RayS** » Mon May 15, 2006 12:54 pm

Angel @ Mon May 15, 2006 11:14 am wrote:I was thinking the same thing. She had gotten so much support from the town people during the trial she probably thought it would continue afterwards. She probably was shocked when she had anticipated all the admiration she had craved all her life and then found she was having backs turned on her.

Other lawyers, like F Lee Bailey, repeated Jennings remarks about an indictment smearing a person forever. Bailey says any person found 'not guilty' will be smeared by the many who like to run down other people.
Also, it could be a sign of 'bad luck', a person would be shunned.

I read that Doris Duke was shunned by society after she killed her boyfriend ("it was an accident"). Big Money can buy a verdict in Somerset County (NJ) then or now. Like the football player who shot his driver!

Wordweaver · Post by **Wordweaver** » Mon May 15, 2006 6:07 pm

RayS @ Mon May 15, 2006 8:51 am wrote:
theebmonique @ Mon May 15, 2006 9:21 am wrote:Wasn't there a prominent 'suffragette' who openly supported Lizzie's innocence ?

Tracy...
Frank Spiering's book is valuable for the background material not found in other's works. The WCTU supported Lizzie (she let them use an office building, important today for various groups that don't have money to rent an office). Later there was a falling-out (no details?).
One alcohol prohibitionist was famous for using a hatchet in saloons (Carrie Nation). The thing here is a man will usually look foolish in fighting with a woman. Especially if she is armed and knows how to use it.

At the time of the murders, I don't believe Lizzie was giving the WCTU free meeting space; I believe that was in the Borden Building after she and Emma inherited. Could be wrong, though.

However, Lizzie had been active in the WCTU as well as Christian Endeavor and the Fruit and Flower Mission. (That's in Paul Dennis Hoffman, Yesterday in Old Fall River.) So it's not really surprising that the WCTU would support her.

Lynn

Audrey · Post by **Audrey** » Mon May 15, 2006 6:12 pm

I think the free use of the space began with Andrew and ended with Lizzie.

Yooper · Post by **Yooper** » Mon May 15, 2006 6:31 pm

What about the people Lizzie went to visit both in Fall River and elsewhere, were they first generation wealthy or were they "old money"? She seemed to go to the opposite end of the social spectrum at the time with theater people, but this was probably after she was ostracized locally.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Tue May 16, 2006 12:28 am

I think the most prominent people who were friends of Lizzie's were the Holmes and the Covell's (who lived in Newport). Mrs. Holmes and Mrs. Covell were sisters and believed in Lizzie.
Jerome Borden testified at the trial in her defense but didn't contribute much. I think he was on a par with Andrew, money-wise.

There were suffragettes backing Lizzie, but somehow that all fell away after the trial.
The WCTU was in the A.J. Borden Building, Andrew's building, but it is easily mixed up with the *Borden Block.*