dysfunctional family behavior

[Kat]

I have many news items on Nance- maybe 50. A timeline of her career and when she was where would be helpful for someone to know how or if Nance could have seen Lizbeth during any specific year.
I suppose a bio of Nance might give this info.
I know Nance was in California a lot, she had been to Hawaii, Australia, etc. These trips around the world were by ship. That kind of career and travel would take up most of her time.
It's possible they were pen pals, but after 1905 we have no proof they kept in touch at all. In December 25th, 1904, Nance was in New York. I think it's possible when Nance played New York and/or Boston Lizbeth might go see her.
A timeline of Nance's career would give an interested party a better idea of the answer to this question.
Anyone game to look it up rather than surmise?

[DWilly]

I have many news items on Nance- maybe 50. A timeline of her career and when she was where would be helpful for someone to know how or if Nance could have seen Lizbeth during any specific year.
I suppose a bio of Nance might give this info.
I know Nance was in California a lot, she had been to Hawaii, Australia, etc. These trips around the world were by ship. That kind of career and travel would take up most of her time.
It's possible they were pen pals, but after 1905 we have no proof they kept in touch at all. In December 25th, 1904, Nance was in New York. I think it's possible when Nance played New York and/or Boston Lizbeth might go see her.
A timeline of Nance's career would give an interested party a better idea of the answer to this question.

Anyone game to look it up rather than surmise?

I'm going to try and put together some stuff on Nance. The little bit I have so far is this:

Her father was born in Lowell, Massachusetts and he left around 1849, for California.

From David Beasley's book: McKee Rankin: And The Heyday Of The American Theatre on page 290, he wrote about Nance and Rankin playing in 1895-1896, " the cities of New England, and enjoyed popular success throughout the summer, particularly in Boston in June."

Beasley also wrote about Nance being in New York around 1896, after she had nervous break down. She had a lot of nervous break downs.

Rebello, pg. 593:

October 15 thru November 1, 1904

Nance O'Neil, actress and acquaintance of Lizzie Borden, appeared in two plays, Magda and Fires Of St. John, at the Academy of Music in Fall River. Lizzie entertained Miss O'Neil at Maplecroft (Fall River Daily Hearld, October 15, 1904: 6; Fall River Daily Herald, November 1, 1904:6; Boston Sunday Herald, June 4, 1905: 11)


Nance did travel a lot. Which is one of the reasons she had nervous break downs. She first went to Hawaii in 1898. She went again in 1905, but that appears to have been simply a stop over. Nance was first in Australia in 1900. She went back to Australia later but I have to check on the year. She also went to New Zealand in 1900. She was in South Africa in 1902.

Nance was in Boston Dec. 11, 1906, New York Times


New Year's Day 1907, Nance was in Lowell, Mass

Sept 1908, she was in the play Agnes in New York. She was in this same play in Massachusetts.

Dec. 1909, she was in The Lily in New York

Anyway, I jumped up a few years and found Nance in New York in Jan. 13, 1924 in the play Madre.

In April of 1927, she was in New York in a play called Fog Bound

The play dates come from the New York Times.


Beasley also writes that Nance kept her place in Massachusetts until around 1908.


I still have a lot to look up. There are more years. Nance did travel a lot but she also was on the East Coast from 1896, all the way up untill the time she died.

[Kat]

Thanks. That's the kind of timeline which is helpful.
I would think if they were still friendly, that Lizbeth might catch up with Nance in New York and Boston etc.
Our Tina-Kate wrote a great bio on Nance which I was re-reading last night- Hatchet, Feb./March, 2005, "Queen of Tragedy: Nance O'Neil."
Great pictures too.

Our William wrote a filmography for The Hatchet, as well, listing her movie career, April/May 2004, titled "The Many Faces of Nance."

Our Lyddie, (Mary), wrote an interesting item for The Hatchet, issue June/July 2004, called "Lizzie Borden Slept Here," about Tyngsborough.

Don't forget The Hatchet is a good resource for research!

[DWilly]

Thanks. That's the kind of timeline which is helpful.
I would think if they were still friendly, that Lizbeth might catch up with Nance in New York and Boston etc.
Our Tina-Kate wrote a great bio on Nance which I was re-reading last night- Hatchet, Feb./March, 2005, "Queen of Tragedy: Nance O'Neil."
Great pictures too.

Our William wrote a filmography for The Hatchet, as well, listing her movie career, April/May 2004, titled "The Many Faces of Nance."

Our Lyddie, (Mary), wrote an interesting item for The Hatchet, issue June/July 2004, called "Lizzie Borden Slept Here," about Tyngsborough.

Don't forget The Hatchet is a good resource for research!

I'll have to get Tina-kate's bio on Nance. I read that Nance's father came from a prominent New England family. Also, Nance's sister Lizzie was also an actress. Their father was not too happy about that.

It is possible that Lizzie Borden and Nance could have met up and had a few nice, quiet dinners together. In addition to Nance I also want to look into Lizzie's relationships with Ricca Allen and most of all Mrs. Elizabeth Annette Stockwell. Stockwell was known as the "Mysterious Veiled Lady" at Lizzie's trial. Seems like Lizzie may have had a few cozy little relationships with these women. Lizzie may not have been as lonely as some think.

[Kat]

I've always been interested in (who I call) "That Stockwell Woman."
If you research her, maybe you will think about writing it up for the magazine?

[DWilly]

I've always been interested in (who I call) "That Stockwell Woman."
If you research her, maybe you will think about writing it up for the magazine?

I'd like to but first I have to figure out where to start with her. Looking at Rebello he has an article that states on page 306, that the woman was a, "girlhood chum" of Lizzie. I'd like to find out her maiden name.

[Kat]

I recall a couple of references to her. You'll probably find them. Good luck.

[myk7753]

[Allen]

I'd like to add something to the post about the locked interior doors. My mother passed when I was in my early 30's, and my husband and I moved into my father's home so I could take care of my dad who was in his 70's at the time. I have an older sister who had already distanced herself from the rest of us, so I was left as his caretaker. He was a very difficult man to deal with and could be very demanding...little by little I began to isolate myself away from him...at first separate "living" areas then separate meals...eventually I got to the point that I felt the need for the locks on my doors...not that he ever really "invaded my space", but it seemed necessary at the time and to this day, I can't explain exactly why.

I might also add that after 3 or 4 years of that kind of interaction within our family, we all became isolated away from others OUTSIDE the family. The security (?) of the locked doors extended outward as well. First it was double locks on the front doors, then a closed and locked front gate went up outside...we didn't really need it, but it just "felt" right.

I can also understand, (if Andrew was as difficult to deal with as my father was), Lizzie coming to a boiling point and losing it. Despite the fact that I loved my father dearly, there were times I wanted to hurt him. We had reversed rolls, I had become the parent, he the child...and that completely messed up my way of thinking, especially when he would then attempt to exert his influence over me concerning some matter. It sparked my memory when I read above about Andrew letting Lizzie pick out paint colors. My father turned over much of the running of the house to me...starting with "you pick out the house colors" and I honestly think that's when (in my mind) our roll reversal actually started, but became a necessity as he aged further.

No, I never acted on my impulses and I am now (thankfully) out of that situation, but I can understand how that kind of family dynamic can come about. It happens bit by bit, and you don't even see it until (sometimes) it's too late.

One other thing I might add...not sure if it fits the profile or not...but I am the youngest of 2 daughters. I was the "spoiled" one, my older sister became very resentful of that to the point that we no longer speak (and haven't for many years).

Yep, I can understand alot about that dysfunctual family so many years ago...

Thank you so much for your insights myk7753. It helped me to maybe put things into perspective that I had been struggling to understand before. Although there are still many unanswered questions in my mind about how things worked within their family unit. Some things that went on in that house just do not make sense to me.

[Yooper]

Thank you, myk7753, that perspective is very helpful. I had always assumed that Andrew held a tight rein on the household, but it isn't necessarily so. I agree that it's difficult, if not impossible, to know what the dynamics were in the Borden household. If Andrew was becoming easier for Abby to influence, Emma and Lizzie may have sensed a threat. We'll probably never know for certain what the conditions were.

[Davo]

As for dysfunctional families, has anyone compared Massachusetts native Hetty Green and her family and the Bordens? Hetty's stinginess is legion and yet she died the richest woman in the world. Yet she lived in cold water flats, wore dresses for decades. Her son lost his leg as she couldn't get treatment at a free clinic in time. etc. etc. "Hetty Green, Witch of Wall Street" and "The Day They Shook The Plum Tree" are excellent. Maybe some of her characteristics were similar to Andrew Bordens?