Morse Money Returned by 'girls'

[augusta]

When Uncle John died, his will left like $600 to Lizzie and $600 to Emma, I think.

Lizzie refused the money. That I can understand, if she really did not get along with Morse like she seemed to not at the time of the murders. Or if they were in cahoots, it would look good for her where Morse was concerned.

I don't understand why Emma would refuse Morse's money. I don't even have an opinion.

(I hope my info is correct. I don't have my books to access right now.)

[1bigsteve]

Perhaps they both realized he was involved in the murders. His alibi was so tight it bothers me. I feel he may have been involved somehow in the murders and the girls didn't want any "blood money." It's a thought.

-1bigsteve (o:

[augusta]

Big Steve - That's for sure - Morse's alibi being so tight. I feel there's gotta be something there.

But I always figured that the three of them took part in it (Morse + the 'girls').

Are you saying it's possible that just Morse - and not 'the girls' - were responsible for the slayings? I never thought of that before ... Veddy interrresting ...

[1bigsteve]

I think that if Morse had arranged a killer to kill Abby and Andrew then Lizzie had to have known about it and cooperated with the killer. I can't see a killer doing all that killing and remaining hidden without someone running interferrence for him.

Remember Lizzie telling Bridget about the fabric sale? I feel Lizzie was trying to get Bridget out of the house so Andrew could be finished off. When Bridget went up stairs I think Lizzie felt that that was good enough and gave the "all clear" sign to the killer. Both killings took place when Bridget was either outside the house or on the third floor, away from the scenes of the crimes. Bridget's where abouts during the actuall killings were, I feel, planned.

A. For Abby: "Bridget, these windows need cleaning. I know it's hot out but go outside and do them anyway."

B. For Andrew: "Bridget, there is a fabric sale going on down town. Oh, you're going upstairs to rest? Well, I guess that is good enough..."

Whether Emma knew anything about if before hand I don't have any thoughts on but I'm sure she put two and three together afterward. The knowledge that her sister was involved in the killings may have been what really drove them apart later. It may not have had anything to do with Nance. It could have just been the final straw, or Nance could have been the final straw.

These are only my thoughts and ideas which are subject to change without notice.

-1bigsteve (o:

[RayS]

Uncle John did NOT have a "perfect alibi". He was contacted while at his relative's house (nephew/niece?), and then took careful notice of what he did since he left there. There was no question of his trip there.
Or so I remember.
Mu conclusion is: he found out about the death of Andy while he was there.
The death of Abby seems to have been a surprise.

[Kat]

Emma is the one who refused the bequest.
-- -- Lizzie was her father's daughter and of course accepted the money- $604.
(Rebello, 74)

[RayS]

Emma is the one who refused the bequest.
-- -- Lizzie was her father's daughter and of course accepted the money- $604.
(Rebello, 74)

Very good!
My grandfather said never pass up free food or drink or money.

[Kat]

Emma's heirs eventually accepted the money.
It didn't seem to earn much interest in the interim, I notice!

[augusta]

That strikes me as even stranger. Emma refusing Morse's bequest. They were the ones, before the trial, who supposedly got along and kept in touch.

So Lizzie did accept it. Thanks, Kat. I don't even have Rebello upstairs yet. Sorry for the error.

Emma seems to have been the type of person who took things to heart and took them to her grave. She may not have expressed negative things about people, but it seems that she kept them and didn't let go. Maybe it was because of the murders. I guess we have no way of knowing if she still communicated with him after the trial.

Morse had an iron-clad alibi - one that went to excess when he's naming the numbers on the horsecar conductor's cap.

RayS - Why do you say Abby was a surprise to Morse? I'm interested.

Big Steve - I agree. Lizzie would have to have known and, I think, been an accomplice.

Didn't Lizzie tell Bridget that the sale was "this afternoon"? I always wondered about that. That sounded like she wanted her out of the house after lunch. (Lizzie had the day of the sale wrong.)

I've read that Emma sometimes told Bridget about sales but that Lizzie never had before. I believe Bridget testified to this.

Why would she want Bridget out of the house in the afternoon? Would Lizzie have dared to wait that long for Andrew to be killed? I'd think too much could happen - visitors, etc.

But Andrew did show up unexpectedly a bit early because he wasn't feeling well. Was his murder planned for the afternoon? They could have gotten thru lunch without finding Abby. Or did Lizzie not plan on Andrew being killed at all? Geez, he would know who did Abby. But then, he didn't give Lizzie away about the daylight robbery. He wouldn't have any proof, tho, that Lizzie did it besides opportunity. I wonder how Andrew would have reacted to Abby's death had he not been killed.

[augusta]

Sorry - multiple post. - Augusta

NOW IS THE TIME TO SUBSCRIBE TO 'THE HATCHET'. IF YOU ALREADY DO, WHY NOT CONSIDER A GIFT SUBSCRIPTION FOR FIVE OR SIX OTHERS?
EACH ISSUE INCLUDES 'BRIDGET'S KITCHEN' AND THE EVER-POPULAR 'DEAR ABBY' .... and ... other stuff.

[RayS]

...
RayS - Why do you say Abby was a surprise to Morse? I'm interested.
...

As I remember it, the first thing said by Uncle John at the murder scene was "how in God's name did this happen?" That shows either genuine surprise, or a good acting job.
I surmise that Uncle John helped to set up a secret meeting w/ Wm Borden, to talk about his inheritance. Yes, it is an assumption based on Brown's book. The only book to solve the crime by looking at the big picture and using an unknown subject.
Brown used the memoirs of Henry Hawthorne and the story of his mother-in-law Ellan Eagan.

[Kat]

Didn't Lizzie tell Bridget that the sale was "this afternoon"? I always wondered about that. That sounded like she wanted her out of the house after lunch. (Lizzie had the day of the sale wrong.)

I've read that Emma sometimes told Bridget about sales but that Lizzie never had before. I believe Bridget testified to this.

Why would she want Bridget out of the house in the afternoon? Would Lizzie have dared to wait that long for Andrew to be killed? I'd think too much could happen - visitors, etc.

But Andrew did show up unexpectedly a bit early because he wasn't feeling well. Was his murder planned for the afternoon? They could have gotten thru lunch without finding Abby. Or did Lizzie not plan on Andrew being killed at all?

--Augusta- partial

It might make sense for Lizzie to try to get Bridget out of the house in the afternoon by telling her of the sale at Sergents (we don't know for sure if that sale was advertised ahead of time or not- it's in dispute I believe) if she did not know Abby was dead, but did know something was going to happen to Andrew after dinner --Because the wait between kills is so odd, and the point made about the possibility of anybody dropping by and how dangerous the timing would be.
That's correct about Lizzie not ever telling Bridget about sales etc. So that is out of character too- you're right.

I don't think Andrew was necessarily home "early" though. He might have left later than usual, maybe.

[matt kevin jones]

The copy of the will of John V. Morse that I read
Stated That uncle John left some things to his neices & nephews with the exception of any with the last name Borden, because they did not need it.

Is there something I'm missing, heres the thread

http://www.lizzieandrewborden.com/pdf%2 ... seWill.pdf

[RayS]

...
It might make sense for Lizzie to try to get Bridget out of the house in the afternoon by telling her of the sale at Sergents (we don't know for sure if that sale was advertised ahead of time or not- it's in dispute I believe) if she did not know Abby was dead, but did know something was going to happen to Andrew after dinner --Because the wait between kills is so odd, and the point made about the possibility of anybody dropping by and how dangerous the timing would be.
That's correct about Lizzie not ever telling Bridget about sales etc. So that is out of character too- you're right.

I don't think Andrew was necessarily home "early" though. He might have left later than usual, maybe.

I suggest that Lizzie acted on the behest of her Father and his secret meeting. Getting Bridget away would be needed. The next best thing was for her to be resting in her room. IMO
If she planned to murder Andy, she would NEVER have then told the police "it wasn't Bridget or anyone who worked for Father". Instead she would have said "only Bridget was in the house" (true, but misleading).

[Kat]

Oy! That is Arnold-Brown speak, not anyone else.

[Kat]

The copy of the will of John V. Morse that I read
Stated That uncle John left some things to his neices & nephews with the exception of any with the last name Borden, because they did not need it.

Is there something I'm missing, heres the thread

http://www.lizzieandrewborden.com/pdf%2 ... seWill.pdf

You are right to ask. But Rebello's book has further info- into the future and probate of JVM's will.

Page 74, partial:
Residuary Account

..."The court made the following ruling on March 17, 1913: Mr. William B. Morse, brother of John Morse, entitled to 1/6 ($1,211.98); Arabella, half-sister of John Morse, ($1,211.98); entitled to 1/6, Lisbeth Borden and Emma Borden, entitled to 1/12 ($605.97); Annie Lancaster, Edith Lancaster and Ora E. Morse, each entitled to 1/12 ($605.97); and Joseph Luther Morse, entitled to 1/12 ($605.97). Amy Andrews, Eva M. Roe, Selecta M. Bee, Bird Fairchild, Sarah England, Henry L. Shaw, and John W. Shaw were all entitled to 1/42 of the residuary account ($173.12 each). As directed by the will, Annie E. Morse, Ora E. Morse and Joseph L. Morse each received $10.70.

Emma Borden refused to accept her share of Mr. Morse's estate. The money, as directed by probate court, was deposited in an account with the Clerk of the District Court in Mills County, Iowa. When Emma Borden died in 1927, the executors of her estate, B.M.C. Durfee Trust Company and Mr. Preston H. Gardner, petitioned the court and county treasurer in Iowa, to have Emma's share of Mr. Morse's estate returned. Emma's share ($606.18) was returned and included in her estate."-etc.

--Registry of Deeds / Land Transactions for John V. Morse.

Will of John V. Morse and court documents, Probate Court, Glenwood, IA.

[augusta]

Rays - If Wm. Borden was told he would get an inheritance, how did he expect to get it after the murders?

I am surprised that Emma's estate, after she turned down Morse's money, could later recoup that $600. I'd think that if Emma turned it down, that'd be the end of it.

If Andrew left later than usual - because of visiting with Morse I guess - wouldn't he have come home later normally, had he not been ill? On August 4th, then, he came home seemingly earlier yet.?

It looks to me like Andrew left on time for that day, for what he was doing. Seems like it was Bank Day for him. Do we know if the Fall River banks opened at 9 then?

[Yooper]

It appears that both Emma's and John's wishes were disregarded by the courts to some degree. If John left a will which allowed the Borden sisters nothing, Emma, who wanted to honor her uncle's last wishes, did not accept the changes which the court had made. Emma's choice to honor her uncle's last wishes was disregarded when her estate accepted money from John Morse's estate.

[augusta]

Every time I click on that will link, it says 'page not available'. I'll have to get some gumption and actually look for it.

I don't know anything about probate court. Right, Yooper. It sounds like the wills involved were not how the deceased wanted it. I don't know how a judge can just change something like that. I could see if something was really, really wrong with a will. Like a spouse got left out, or the person was incompetent when they wrote it. And it's lawful. Hmmm ...

[RayS]

Rays - If Wm. Borden was told he would get an inheritance, how did he expect to get it after the murders?
...

Are you asking me that because you think I'm the expert?
I really don't know what somebody could believe then.

[Kat]

If Andrew left later than usual - because of visiting with Morse I guess - wouldn't he have come home later normally, had he not been ill? On August 4th, then, he came home seemingly earlier yet.?

It looks to me like Andrew left on time for that day, for what he was doing. Seems like it was Bank Day for him. Do we know if the Fall River banks opened at 9 then?

--Augusta, partial.

Andrew's bank, The Union Savings Bank hours were 9 am to 2 pm, and Saturday evenings 6-8 pm.
The several banks, whose hours I checked, opened at 9 am. and closed at 2 pm.

I don't know who first started the idea that Andrew was home early that day. I recall we discussed this before and I think it was found that Andrew expected business drop-ins at his house around 11 am before dinner, usually. We thought he would want to be home before then.

The fact that Andrew had been ill, and missed his Wednesday meeting, and was still a bit under the weather probably, I would think Thursday he would be expected home earlier than usual, rather than not expected earlier.
We've never proved what he did between 9 and 9:20 am or so- the papers said he was shaved. If he wasn't shaved he may have left later. Who's to say? Lizzie thinks he left around 10, didn't she? That's why it's hard to know if Andrew was early, late, or about on time.
On a day he had a board meeting maybe he came home nearer dinner time.

[diana]

There was something in the newspapers to the effect that Andrew was usually home by 11 a.m.

"Miss Emma and Miss Lizzie have a theory in regard to the murder of their parents. It is a very unsatisfactory one, but it is, nevertheless, a theory. Lizzie and Emma and Mr. Morse are absolutely certain that Lizzie did not commit the crime. They think that some strange man killed Mr. and Mrs. Borden. They state that Mr. Borden always received his business callers between 11 and 12 o'clock in the morning. He always answered the door bell between these hours, they say." (New Bedford Evening Standard, August 29, 1892)

[RayS]

There was something in the newspapers to the effect that Andrew was usually home by 11 a.m.

"Miss Emma and Miss Lizzie have a theory in regard to the murder of their parents. It is a very unsatisfactory one, but it is, nevertheless, a theory. Lizzie and Emma and Mr. Morse are absolutely certain that Lizzie did not commit the crime. They think that some strange man killed Mr. and Mrs. Borden. They state that Mr. Borden always received his business callers between 11 and 12 o'clock in the morning. He always answered the door bell between these hours, they say." (New Bedford Evening Standard, August 29, 1892)

Assuming there was only one killer, then the killer could not have entered after 11am when Andy was home. He was waiting updatairs, after killing Abby in the guest bedroom with the hatchet.