Patsy Ramsey dies...

[Audrey]

http://www.cnn.com/2006/LAW/06/24/ramsey.death/

[matt kevin jones]

I just wonder if She had something to do with the Murder.

[Kat]

I was wondering if any news about JonBenet might come out now.
If she was being protected, someone might speak.
Or if the Ramsey's had nothing to do with the murder, maybe someone will now come forward.

[Audrey]

I think she was innocent and that her last years must have been hell for her. I hope she is in peace now.

[RayS]

I just wonder if She had something to do with the Murder.

YES, she was the mother of the victim.
It is a shame that gossipy minds started to blame her.

They found DNA evidence in JonBenet's panties from someone who was not a member of the family? Can anyone explain how this happened if not from a stranger?

[Harry]

Court TV will have a show on the Ramsey case.

"Premieres Thursday, June 29 at 10pm E/P
Encores Friday, July 7 at 11pm

The crime that has captivated a nation for nearly a decade is once again in the headlines now that Patsy Ramsey, mother of the doomed child beauty queen JonBenet, has passed away. Court TV takes a closer look at the case in this hour-long special that includes an exclusive interview with a Grand Juror on the case, as well as other key players. We delve into the investigation in an effort to understand why the death of JonBenet, who was found murdered ten years ago this December (2006), has remained unsolved. An in-depth examination of the twists and turns of one of America's most baffling mysteries, this special takes a closer look at the evidence, the mistakes that were made and the media circus that has surrounded the case since JonBenet’s tiny body was discovered in the basement of her home in Colorado."

[Stefani]

I suspected her only because of the way in which she was wired. You have to admit she didn't come off well on film or TV and she seemed shrill and somehow manic. The entire child beauty pagent life was icky to see and know about. It wasn't such a long walk to think of someone who paraded her daughter like that in public to be a super perfectionist who could lose it and take some imperfection out on her in the heat of the moment.

I thought that she did it and her husband protected her. It seemed the simplest answer to the mystery. However, if she didn't have anything to do with it, if we ever find out, I agree with Audrey that she has been through hell. I am afraid we will never know what happened, which is a shame for that little girl.

[Audrey]

She did have a very off-putting demeanor about her. I agree 100% with that.

I think she was one of those women who was catapulted into a level of 'society' where she didn't feel comfortable or that she belonged. She probably suffered from a terrible inferiority complex and turned to both her husband and her children for constant reinforcement and adulation. It was very plain to see that her husband felt she was his 'responsibility' and not his partner. I think the man was/is probably exhausted from the emotional toll her needs took on him.

[RayS]

About 8 years ago I met a relative whose wife and daugher were involved in "pageants". It costs a lot of money to take part in these activities, traveling and clothes, acting lessons, etc.

What do you get for the money? A daughter who has a hobby that few others in her class can match.
Anyone else know much about this show business?

[Kat]

The bottom line is she was a little girl without her own name and living the life her mother had wanted for herself.
A lost child. She was lost by age 6.

Jon-Benet Ramsey= John + Bennet+ Ramsey

[Kat]

And now John Ransey has been a divorcee, and has had a wife and 2 children die.
That's a lot of loss.

[Angel]

And now John Ransey has been a divorcee, and has had a wife and 2 children die.
That's a lot of loss.

What happened to the other child?

[Kat]

Daughter: Elizabeth "Beth" Ramsey (b. 15-Jul-1969, d. 8-Jan-1992)... she died in a car accident.

[Stefani]

I saw the show this thread mentioned. Stayed up until 3am to do so as I forgot about the earlier viewing time. You gotta love it when cable repeats stuff over and over!

Anyway, it was a rollercoaster ride. One minute I am thinking, yes, she did it. Then another segment would play and I would think no way, it was an intruder. That is the thing about this case, they said. It is a puzzle where all the pieces start to fit and then they don't.

The ransom note, the complex layout of the hosue, and the pinapple on the counter show familiarity with the house. The garrotte and the stun gun point to an intruder. Plus the dna evidence in the underwear. White male, unidentified. But only 10 markers, not the full 13.

So I think that unless somebody says they did it, this case is colder than cold.

[qtpiegurl77]

I think the family paid someone off....

[RayS]

...
It is a puzzle where all the pieces start to fit and then they don't.

The ransom note, the complex layout of the hosue, and the pinapple on the counter show familiarity with the house. The garrotte and the stun gun point to an intruder. Plus the dna evidence in the underwear. White male, unidentified. But only 10 markers, not the full 13.

So I think that unless somebody says they did it, this case is colder than cold.

We've all seen sketches of the Borden house. Do you know if the floor plan of your house is available for public inspection at City Hall?
Could that house have been owned before, or publicized in a newspaper?

People are considered innocent until proben guilty. I believed (assumed) that it was an intruder, just like the murder of Marilyn Sheppard.
Or Nicole Brown Simpson and Ron Goldman.

[Elizabelle]

I think the family paid someone off....

Why in the heck would they pay someone to claim to be guilty?

Don't you think they want the REAL murderer put to justice? What kind of validation do they get by paying some insane person to tell everyone he's guilty?

I'm assuming you think the parents are guilty and they are paying someone to take the blame off them?

Why wait 10 years to "pay someone off?" 10 years worth of finger-pointing, whispering, lies, accusations, assumptions, and media cruelty?

Patsy & John couldn't possibly be innocent...they must have paid someone to confess to killing their daughter! I don't buy it.

[Kat]

I was wondering if any news about JonBenet might come out now.
If she was being protected, someone might speak.
Or if the Ramsey's had nothing to do with the murder, maybe someone will now come forward.

Ooo! Look what I *predicted* late June.
I forgot about my comment until this topic was revised.

(It's not about "me" tho- it's just interesting to be a sensitive and have validation once in a while- excuse please...)

[Wordweaver]

I was wondering if any news about JonBenet might come out now.
If she was being protected, someone might speak.
Or if the Ramsey's had nothing to do with the murder, maybe someone will now come forward.

Ooo! Look what I *predicted* late June.
I forgot about my comment until this topic was revised.

(It's not about "me" tho- it's just interesting to be a sensitive and have validation once in a while- excuse please...)

That is interesting, isn't it?

Although some people I know consider the timing of Karr's confession a political conspiracy to draw attention away from the Iraq War, I'm not quite that paranoid.

Lynn

[SallyG]

If all the evidence shows that this guy did indeed murder JonBenet, and Patsy was totally innocent....well, I remember when Patsy died, people had some horrible things to say about her on various messge boards, assuming she killed her daughter. If this guy was the one, I will be very sorry that she did not live to see him brought to justice and have her name cleared. I also wonder if there was any evidence in the beginning that pointed to this guy that was completely disregarded while all the focuse was on the parents.

[matt kevin jones]

I will never belive that Patsy Ramsey did not have something to do with the Murder. I think She was a Stage Mom who lost control one night, after Jon Benet wet the bed ( Rumors of Course )

Just like I will always belive Bridgette Sullivan had something to do with the Borden murders

[SallyG]

I will never belive that Patsy Ramsey did not have something to do with the Murder. I think She was a Stage Mom who lost control one night, after Jon Benet wet the bed ( Rumors of Course )

Just like I will always belive Bridgette Sullivan had something to do with the Borden murders

Well, Matt...you never know. It's entirely possible this guy could be a wacko who wants his 15 minutes of fame. But if the DNA links him to the murder, I would sincerely doubt that Patsy was in on it.

[Elizabelle]

Killing your precious child because they wet the bed is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard.

Especially when you are talking about a very loving, caring, & affectionate mother who had no history of abusing her children whatsoever.

Patsy, John, or Burke Ramsey had absolutely nothing to do with the death of JonBenet.

I'd lay a bet on it.

[Wordweaver]

Killing your precious child because they wet the bed is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard.

Especially when you are talking about a very loving, caring, & affectionate mother who had no history of abusing her children whatsoever.

Well, that's the issue, isn't it? Abuse is not always -- maybe not often -- visible from outside a house. God knows nobody knew or guessed what happened in my house. Even families that are far more publicly visible than mine can hide abuse. I know the offspring of a highly respected, intellectual upper-class family whose childhood was a nightmare of incest, abuse, and terror. Another friend is the child of a well-known and highly successful family -- the epitome of the American dream on the outside, utterly broken on the inside. (For the record, I also know plenty of people who had loving, non-abusive homes and who have given their children a loving start in life.)

But parenthood is demanding. Parenthood and a serious illness like cancer can be an overwhelming burden to everyone in a household. I don't say Patsy did it. Both parents may well be innocent. But the apparent perfection might cover serious problems.

After all, there's that handsome, Princeton-educated physician, a Green Beret, who killed his wife and daughters one night, possibly in a drug-fueled rage.

Or the handsome young man, an active Republican, who could have been governor of Washington state before it was revealed that he was a serial killer.

Or the pretty blonde Sunday school teacher who hacked another woman to death with an axe. (Not Lizzie, thanks.)

Or the case where a doctor shot his lover's husband, called it an accident, and got away with it for more than 20 years. He married the victim's widow and raised the victim's children as his own, and they loved him so much they used their inheritance (largely from their father's life insurance) to pay for his defense when he finally came to trial. He was obviously a good parent. But he committed murder.

Even good people can snap. Even successful people can be cruel in private.

We have to wait for the evidence. I hope it's very clear and indisputable, because right now we don't know what the truth is.

Lynn

[Kat]

Some irate people think that the pageant lifestyle was a form of abuse and putting the little girl out there on stage would have attracted a kind of attention mothers do not wish for their children if they want to keep them safe.

[RayS]

Some irate people think that the pageant lifestyle was a form of abuse and putting the little girl out there on stage would have attracted a kind of attention mothers do not wish for their children if they want to keep them safe.

You forgot to add "IMO".
Did you read about this case in a book?
Does Lawrence Schiller note that Patsy and her Mom were both Beauty Queens? And they considered it only natural for JonBenet to follow in their paths. Pageants are an expensive hobby for parents.
Also, these pageants were only begun in 1996 when JB was old enough. Also they hired an experienced photographer to create those images.

[RayS]

,,,
After all, there's that handsome, Princeton-educated physician, a Green Beret, who killed his wife and daughters one night, possibly in a drug-fueled rage.

Or the handsome young man, an active Republican, who could have been governor of Washington state before it was revealed that he was a serial killer.

Or the pretty blonde Sunday school teacher who hacked another woman to death with an axe. (Not Lizzie, thanks.)

Even good people can snap. Even successful people can be cruel in private.

We have to wait for the evidence. I hope it's very clear and indisputable, because right now we don't know what the truth is.

Lynn

Based on a book I read, Jeffrey McDonald was not guilty. He was framed by those who wanted to stop his work against drugs on the post. You should read this book before judging him. A poster here claimed to have worked with him.

Ted Bundy would never have become Governor!!! His family background (poor and illegitimate) would work against him. He could have gotten a high appointed post, maybe.

I'm not familiar with the third example. You should mention names for your own credibility.

I'm waiting for the evidence, and reading a book on the Ramseys. Its a long book w/o an index, photographs, or table of contents. That should limit its identity.

[Wordweaver]

,,,
After all, there's that handsome, Princeton-educated physician, a Green Beret, who killed his wife and daughters one night, possibly in a drug-fueled rage.

Or the handsome young man, an active Republican, who could have been governor of Washington state before it was revealed that he was a serial killer.

Or the pretty blonde Sunday school teacher who hacked another woman to death with an axe. (Not Lizzie, thanks.)

Even good people can snap. Even successful people can be cruel in private.

We have to wait for the evidence. I hope it's very clear and indisputable, because right now we don't know what the truth is.

Lynn

Based on a book I read, Jeffrey McDonald was not guilty. He was framed by those who wanted to stop his work against drugs on the post. You should read this book before judging him. A poster here claimed to have worked with him.

Ted Bundy would never have become Governor!!! His family background (poor and illegitimate) would work against him. He could have gotten a high appointed post, maybe.

I'm not familiar with the third example. You should mention names for your own credibility.

I'm waiting for the evidence, and reading a book on the Ramseys. Its a long book w/o an index, photographs, or table of contents. That should limit its identity.

I've read the book that claims Jeffrey MacDonald is innocent. Weighing it against every other piece of evidence I have read about, including the depth of his wounds, I still am positive he did it.

The "he could have been governor" remark was famously made by someone Ted Bundy worked with on Dan Evans's successful campaign for Governor. My reference books are all packed (I just moved three days ago), but it could have been Evans himself who said it.

The third example is the Candy Montgomery case, AKA the Texas Sunday-School teacher axe murder; there's a fascinating book about it called Evidence of Love, which is available at Amazon: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/055324 ... e&n=283155

I am always willing to give references.

[RayS]

I first read "Tainting Evidence" when it was new. After wards I read the book that argued for Jeff McDonald's innocence.
There were changes made to the crime scene by the investigators that were later used to imply guilty (picking up table & stuff on floor). Most of all is the evidence used to convict him. NO ONE could find this evidence until years later one investigator "found" it. Also, the nylon hairs did come from a wig. (Pardon me if I don't remember it all.)
My first impression of his guilt came from the TV film circa 1987?. I sort of realized that it was one-sided afterwards. Public opinion campaign?

PS In one of Cyril Wecht's book he says the wounds on Jeff MdDonald could not all have been self-inflilcted. Therefore there were intruders. Wecht says a stab in the stomach can be very dangerous, compared to some of the other wounds.
Also, a guard at the time did see some people who resembled the intruders described by Jeff McDonald; he wasn't making it up.

[Kat]

Evidence of Love is a fantastic book and a fantastic movie!
"Murder in a Small Town" I think it was called.

Anyone who is at all interested in true crime would appreciate this book.
Thanks for bringing it up!
We always keep a copy. If it gets loaned out and not returned, we get another!

[RayS]

From reading, it says the Boulder Police had enough to arrest Patsy on probable cause, but the DA did not have enough evidence to convict.

Sort of like the Borden Murders?

[Wordweaver]

Evidence of Love is a fantastic book and a fantastic movie!
"Murder in a Small Town" I think it was called.

Anyone who is at all interested in true crime would appreciate this book.
Thanks for bringing it up!
We always keep a copy. If it gets loaned out and not returned, we get another!

It's one of the best true-crime books I know.

The fourth case I'd mentioned -- the doctor who shot his lover's husband and then married her -- is the Scher/Dillon case. It happened in my home county the weekend I was graduating from high school, and it took a couple of decades to go to trial.

Lynn

[RayS]

Last month there was the Raisch case on ABC TV. The husband was murdered by the lover of his wife. Then they split up and married someone else! You can't make this stuff up!

[Kat]

This story is even better!

An axe murder in self defense!.

And believable!

[snokkums]

I just wonder if She had something to do with the Murder.

She did. The witch killled her kid. I know she did. I just feel it.

[bobarth]

IMO I believe Jon-Benet was a pedophiles dream child. I dont think either parent had anything to do with her murder. I think they loved their child and doted on her. I do believe it was one of their friends or possibly a neighbor who killed that little girl. The foreign DNA found on her does not match anyone in the family and her family doctor said there was no prior sexual abuse that he had ever saw.

[RayS]

There was a palm print on the door to that room that was never identified.
I believe that Patsey was innocent until proven guilty - which will never be.

What book about this case do YOU recommend?

[bobarth]

The books I have read on this would be "Perfect Murder, Perfect Town" and "The Death of Innocence". I dont think this case will ever be solved either.

[RayS]

The books I have read on this would be "Perfect Murder, Perfect Town" and "The Death of Innocence". I dont think this case will ever be solved either.

Assuming they test convicts, sooner or later they will catch the guy whose DNA matches. Unless he was killed earlier. They know the DNA says "white male" who is not related to the Ramseys.
Or could it have come from a playmate? Not if the police tested everyone who had access to JonBenet that day.

[Kat]

I don't think there was a palm print on that door, but rather on a door nearby.
I could be wrong. I didn't double-check.

[bobarth]

I do know there was a Hi Tech hiking boot imprint found down in their cellar that was never identified also.

[RayS]

I do know there was a Hi Tech hiking boot imprint found down in their cellar that was never identified also.

Yes, but this shoe is very popular with the police, and may have been left by one of the investigators.
I never heard of it before. I know specialty shoe stores carry shoes for mailmen, nurses, police, and other people who spend a lot of time on their feet. "Doc Marten" shoes were designed for this.

[bobarth]

Very popular hiking boot out here, I have 3 pairs of them. One for hiking, one for work and then my dress up hiking boot.

[RayS]

What about the rest of the country? Is it a national brand, and carried in chains like Sears or Penneys? Or specialty stores?

[bobarth]

Rays

Not sure, my dad bought a whole bunch of them when they were on sale when I lived in Southern Illinois. Cant remember where he did get them from.