Bridget hired by Lizzie & Emma to kill Mom & Pops ??

[matt kevin jones]

I just finished Radins book this morning.
I must say I really like the way He lets the Reader make their own conclusions about the case, instead of pushing a particular theory.

has anyone thought that maybe Lizzie & Emma could have possibly hired Bridget to murder the Bordens ? ( Radin did not suggest this in His book )
Since Bridget seemed to have more opportunity that morning ( the 30 minutes of unaccounted time, that Radin suggest )
I know this sounds far fetched, but I guess anything is possible.
Does anyone know if any research has been done about Bridget after She went back to Ireland, when She supposedly bought a farm for Her parents from the suggested pay-off money from Lizzie. Could this money possibly be Her payment for the Murders, if She commited them.
Maybe there is some record of land transactions in Her name in Ireland, that would give us an idea of how much a possible pay-off could have been?
Am I shooting in the wind or what ?

on another subject--- I downloaded my fee issue of the Hatchet ( I plan on subscribing ) it was an older issue, and I thought the section Dear Abby was hilarious, especially the part about someone wanting to purchase Andrews reefer. ( cool Huh ? ) it reminded me of my High School Days. ( not so cool afterall )
Matt

[Joy]

Hi Matt, your thought made me think more of the possibility that Bridget just may have done it, (though I still doubt it), however, wouldn't it have been great if she did end up confessing something at her death bed?! I always wondered what she would have said had she not recovered. Is that mentioned in Radin's book?

[matt kevin jones]

Hey Joy
I wonder also what Bridget had to say when She thought she was dying.
( Radin does talk about it ) She summoned a close friend, saying She had a secret, But She recovered and then did not tell.
Most people that want to reveal something on their deathbed, have something really important to say, so they can ease their soul before death. She must have wanted to reveal something terrific.
Too bad that She recovered, I guess we will never know.
Maybe it was the payoff, maybe She was the killer, I guess only She & lizzie knows for sure. If we knew for sure She bought property in Ireland
where did She get the Money ??

[Harry]

There is no proof that I know of for any of the following regarding Bridget:

1. She received a pay off.
2. She returned to Ireland.
3. She bought her parents a farm.

Her testimony certainly wasn't overwhelmingly in Lizzie's favor. Some of it very damaging even. But it is thought by many it is what she didn't say that was crucial.

Kat and I were just talking about Bridget and Ireland. If Bridget had money it would seem that she would send for her parents and family. People were leaving Ireland in droves due to the situation there. Why would she want to purchase a farm that in all probability would fail?

In her will she left sums of money to her nieces and nephews who resided in Butte, Montana. This would seem to indicate she had brother(s) and sister(s) residing in Montana at one time or another. According to an article in a 1996 LBQ issue, she was one of 12 children, several who died at an early age.

[matt kevin jones]

Harry
I agree with you about there is no proof of any payoff e.t.c.
And I know She was a witness for the Prosecution, But it still pains me of what her secret was, on her supposed Death Bed?
it was just a wild idea, that maybe She was paid off. I know that theory has been bounced around for ages. Along with countless others.
Do you have an opinion of what the secret may have been?
I'm just trying to go over every possible idea & throw out the ridiculous ones.

Matt

[Joy]

Yes, that was the exact confession I was speaking of. What DID she need to confess to her friend. I have always wondered why not one other person in the whole situation felt the need to confess anything ever. That's pretty lucky that no one ever did. I mean, it's sort of human nature to want to purge at some point. If many were involved, (and I think there were), how lucky that no one ever spilled the beans.

[theebmonique]

Is there ANY documentation of the Minnie Green story ?...I know we discussed it a while back...but can't remember the details.


Tracy...

[matt kevin jones]

If She did have something to spill, it must have been something shocking
realizing that She wasent going to die afterall, She decided it must be kept secret. I just wonder why she dident confess at her actual near death?

[Yooper]

What might be the significance of a verbal "confession" over a written one? Perhaps doubt or selectivity?

[theebmonique]

OR...the perception of the listener ?


Tracy...

[RayS]

As I remember it, her confession was that she was the "Bridget" who was the Borden maid. Nothing more was said. There was no one there with a recorder, or witnesses. But I believe this was scandalous enough.

From reading Edward Radin's book some years ago. Those who have this at hand can check my statement and memory.

[RayS]

There is no proof that I know of for any of the following regarding Bridget:

1. She received a pay off.
2. She returned to Ireland.
3. She bought her parents a farm.

Her testimony certainly wasn't overwhelmingly in Lizzie's favor. Some of it very damaging even. But it is thought by many it is what she didn't say that was crucial.

Kat and I were just talking about Bridget and Ireland. If Bridget had money it would seem that she would send for her parents and family. People were leaving Ireland in droves due to the situation there. Why would she want to purchase a farm that in all probability would fail?

In her will she left sums of money to her nieces and nephews who resided in Butte, Montana. This would seem to indicate she had brother(s) and sister(s) residing in Montana at one time or another. According to an article in a 1996 LBQ issue, she was one of 12 children, several who died at an early age.

Yes, unless the oral tradition (or gossip) is meaningless.
But I believe it because it fits the profile. Elderly parents would not want to start a new life. The money could also have provided passage for her brothers & sisters. (I once knew an immigrant woman who sent money back to Europe.)
WHO would want to spend time and money searching the records for Bridget's sailing to Ireland and her return to Canada? Are there in fact some testimony about this somewhere?
I don't have Radin's book available, and some may not read Arnold Brown's book.

Finding documentary records that Bridget went to Butte Montana directly would dispose of this record. But WHO would want to spend time and money on this?

[RayS]

What might be the significance of a verbal "confession" over a written one? Perhaps doubt or selectivity?

Did Bridget actually use the word "confession"? What book has that?

[RayS]

The bottom line is that Bridget was seen outside by witnesses around the time that Abby was being whacked. There is no controversy about this!!!
There is a witness for Bridget for Andy's murder: Lizzie said she didn't do it!
Case Closed, again.

[RayS]

Edwin Radin correctly blames Edmund Pearson for a "literary hoax" in his one-sided quotes from the Trial Transcript. A needed correction.

But Radin himself quotes one-sidedly from the record to suggest blame on poor Bridget, when there can be no possibililty of Bridget doing both Abby and Andy.

The 1965 reprint of Edmund Pearson has an essay by Gerald Gross that splits the blame. Lizzie did Abby, then Bridget did Andy. That fits the known timing situation, but does not explain the lack of bloodstains on both of their dresses, or missing hatchet.

Arnold Brown's solution works best.

[Yooper]

What might be the significance of a verbal "confession" over a written one? Perhaps doubt or selectivity?

Did Bridget actually use the word "confession"? What book has that?

This quotation refers to other posts in this thread, including yours. It reflects someone originating, rather than regurgitating, an idea.

[RayS]

There is no proof that I know of for any of the following regarding Bridget:

1. She received a pay off.
2. She returned to Ireland.
3. She bought her parents a farm.
...

This oral tradition is not implicitly false, or a 'tall tale' told for amusement.
It is quite possible and practical IF Bridget came into a sum of money.
Asking the question seems sort of arrogant: you are asking proof when the people who had actual knowledge are long gone and can't testify. Ordinary people do not write journals or diaries of what they heard.
Bridget had friends (the Kelly's maid) who would have learned about her journey. Word would have spread via her church members (never overlook this source!).
SO, the legend should be accepted until you have proof to the contrary.
Am I being reasonable and rational?

Now if somebody said Bridget found the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow THEN you would be right to question this story.
Would it then sound like a cover story for a pay-off?

[Joy]

Here's a wild thought........What if Bridget was sick to her stomach, (and vomited) at the thought of the task to which she was to perform shortly?! Or had just performed?!!

[RayS]

Here's a wild thought........What if Bridget was sick to her stomach, (and vomited) at the thought of the task to which she was to perform shortly?! Or had just performed?!!

Actually, Edward Radin's book used the incident of vomiting to suggest it occurred just after Bridget killed Abby. It shows Radin's knowledge from being a police reporter who covered "hundreds of murder trials". But given the 9:30 am time of death, Bridget has a solid alibi (the Kelly maid).
The same thing is delicately mentioned in Dusko Popov's book after he meets up with the man who betrayed his best friend to the Gestapo.

They say hunters who kill their first deer may have an unexpected bowel movement. Also, troops in The Great War when they experienced their first shelling. This reminds us all how fragile man's life it. Few people today directly experience a death in the family, or of their food.

But Abby and Andy were also sick earlier from "summer flu" which was very common in the summer days before electric refrigerators. Reading accounts of 19th century travelers might have the same results.

[snokkums]

What you also have to look at is that she was getting paid -- and getting paid better than most servants of her day. Back then alot of live-in maids didn't get any money at all and she had room and board plus a pay wage. So it would't make much sense for her to kill them. Besides she could have made some money on her story after lizzie and emma had died.

[RayS]

What you also have to look at is that she was getting paid -- and getting paid better than most servants of her day. Back then alot of live-in maids didn't get any money at all and she had room and board plus a pay wage. So it would't make much sense for her to kill them. Besides she could have made some money on her story after lizzie and emma had died.

What book are you quoting for the story of her being well paid?

Given the tension in the family, maybe any (?) higher pay was her reward for being in a difficult situation.

My memory says Bridget got $250 a year, about half of what a factory worker would get in a cotton factory. Emma and Lizzie received $200 a year in allowance.

[RayS]

... So it would't make much sense for her to kill them. Besides she could have made some money on her story after lizzie and emma had died.

But who would pay her for this story? Edmund Pearson?
There is an old saying "let sleeping dogs lie" that applies here.
IF that pay-off was carried as a "loan" she would have to pay it back with interest.
(My speculation based on Arthur Phillips story about keeping secret because of "possible future police investigations"). That fits the profile?

[Kat]

The bottom line is that Bridget was seen outside by witnesses around the time that Abby was being whacked. There is no controversy about this!!!
There is a witness for Bridget for Andy's murder: Lizzie said she didn't do it!
Case Closed, again.

Bridget was seen outside by :
Mary Doolan around 9:30 possibly.
George Pettey around 10 AM on the front of the house standing with her window washing implements.
Mrs. Churchill around 10 AM throwing water on one parlour window.

That's it, that we know of.

Abby died between 9 and 9:30 most probably.

There is not a "witness" for Bridget for Andrew's murder.

Please take a note?

[snokkums]

I am just saying that alot of maid servants didnt get paid if they were live ins. Besides, even if she wasn't all that well paid, why kill the cash cow?

[RayS]

I do not have the Trial Transcript. Is it in a form that allows an easy search? I thought that the Kelly maid was talking to Bridget around 9:30. If the trial transcript says anything else, I would have to accept it.

But Bridget was not a suspect so there would be nothing there about her.

The fantasy about Bridget doing Abby remains just a fantasy.
Radin did a good job in his book, but blaming dead Bridget was a low blow.
You are free to comment on this; I'm not 100% sure.