Guest Room shutters

Richard · Post by **Richard** » Thu Jul 06, 2006 4:52 pm

According to A PRIVATE DISGRACE, someone was seen at the door of the Borden's having the door slammed in his face. A few moments later the shutters of the guest room were "slammed" shut. This was all supposed to happen at 9am.

Unless I'm reading incorrecftly, according to the author, the boy at the door was supposed to have tipped off Lizzie that Abby, Andrew and Uncle John were plotting to transfer some real estate at the bank behind the girl's backs, and realizing that a real estate plot was in effect, Lizzie went right from the front door to the upstairs room where she attacked and killed her step-mother.

Is there any evidence to support the guest room shutters being slammed shut? Was that in the trial somewhere? Police reports? Where did the author of A PRIVATE DISGRACE get this information from? I think that the site of the shutters slamming at 9am is as vital as someone seeing a gunman on the grassy knoll, that the shutters could only have been slammed by the killer.

If the shutters were slammed by the killer, then it was probably done AFTER the killing. I can't imagine Abby being taken by surprise by someone who has just spent a few moments slamming shut all the windows in the room.

What does everyone think of this? Perhaps it's already been dismissed and I just didn't read about it in the archives.

Susan · Post by **Susan** » Thu Jul 06, 2006 10:17 pm

Hi Richard, we have discussed Victoria Lincoln's book at length in the past and we've found that she plays with the facts of the case, adds what may potentially be gossip (she lived in Fall River in her younger years) and heaps on a generous helping of speculation. As far as I've heard and read, the front door was not slammed on anyone the day of the murders, nor were the shutters in the guest room windows slammed shut either.

Mind you, I love Lincoln's book, its one of my faves, but, she has put a bunch of things in my head that I've had to unlearn as I've gone along with the case. I wonder if she possibly borrowed bits and pieces of things out of the Trickey/McHenry affair, I think there is something in there about the front door being slammed?

I believe that the shutters in the guest room were closed or partially closed, I think it was Dr. Bowen who commented on the room being dark. If I recall correctly, those shutters are solid ones, no slats, so they really wouldn't let in much light if closed.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Fri Jul 07, 2006 12:10 am

OMG Richard, you are making a film and reading Lincoln?
So sorry we didn't warn you sooner!

snokkums · Post by **snokkums** » Fri Jul 07, 2006 3:23 am

I have heard about some kind of real estate deals but from the book I was reading(sorry cant remeber the name of the book) that that was really up for grabs. But it was something along the line that andrew was going to transfer some real estate to abbeys family, but dont think anything was proven.
The author I was reading likes to mix fact with fiction.

Richard · Post by **Richard** » Fri Jul 07, 2006 11:18 am

Don't worry Kat. I've read enough of this Forum to know to be skeptical about sources. I'm reading the Lincoln book because it's fun and enjoyable, but almost in every paragraph I'm thinking, "How does she know this? Was that from trial testimony?"

I have gone to Harry's typescript of the trial which I downloaded from this web site and I'm slowly, slowly, slowly going through it. Last night I go through the jury selection and read half of the opening statement. I skipped a head a bit to the civil engineers testimony and the testimony of the construction men from the downtown shop who saw Andrew pick up the lock.

So be comforted that I'm trying to be rigorous in my sources. And you and Stefani and Harry and every else on this forum can keep in check if you feel I'm getting too gullable or going to dubious sources.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sat Jul 08, 2006 12:54 am

Thanks Richard.

I don't even read the opening or closing arguments because they are not testimony.
I probably miss things that way- but I'm not sorry.

I probably will someday...

BTW: Susan is right in her description of the inside shutters.

BTW2: Someone spying something /someone in the guestroom window from the street is from the Trickey/McHenry false news item, correct.

Richard · Post by **Richard** » Sat Jul 08, 2006 1:42 am

It does seem to me that Lincoln's description of the shutters slamming shut was probably from street gossip living in Fall River.

And she suggests that the note Lizzie claimed came to call Abby away really arrived, but it was a note to Abby about the real estate swindle they were planning behind Lizzie's back. Of course, according to Lincoln, it was Lizzie who intercepted the note and that brought on the attack and rage that led to Abby's death.

I don't really buy the whole scenario. According to her, Andrew came home confused about Abby's absence at the bank. He had had a carriage waiting for her but she never arrived, so he came home early. Lizzie had her hat on pretending to go out in order to be seen on the street and thereby have an alibi for later when Abby is found dead. but Andrew comes home unexpected and Lizzie has to dispatch him!

I just can't see this as a scenario. Does anyone know of Andrew's typical habits? Did he indeed come home early? If he was a landlord, on the board of a bank or a textile mill or two, he wouldn't be behind a desk in an office all day. Was his one hour walk about town typical for him? After all, that's one reason why he lived downstreet so he could be close to his business and his tennants.

I was a little surprised to see that Lizzie had a hat on inside the house. That's in Lizzie's inquest testimony that she had a hat on.

And I was also surprised to read in the Hatchet that Abby had a scarf on when she was killed. I never visualized or pictured either Lizzie's hat or Abby's scarf ever before.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sat Jul 08, 2006 2:37 am

Well, Lizzie puts down a hat in the dining room, according to her testimony, but she doesn't say she was wearing a hat.. I can actually visualize a young woman carrying a hat they have no intention of wearing, just to show, in public in those times, that they might have been wearing it.

Is Lincoln where we get that story that Andrew was home early? I've always wondered where that came from.

Richard · Post by **Richard** » Sat Jul 08, 2006 11:30 am

Yes, Lincoln makes a big deal out of Andrew coming home "early" and surprising Lizzie who was on her way out (the proof she was on her way out was that she had her hat).

I don't think he would have laid down to tap a nap if he were in the middle of trying to find his wife for a big real estate swindle at the bank.

All in all I dismiss Lincoln's hypothesis. Not to say there can't be bits and pieces of it that are pointing in the right direction. But then on top of all this she throws in the epilepsy....

RayS · Post by **RayS** » Sat Jul 08, 2006 12:07 pm

Richard @ Sat Jul 08, 2006 11:30 am wrote:Yes, Lincoln makes a big deal out of Andrew coming home "early" and surprising Lizzie who was on her way out (the proof she was on her way out was that she had her hat).

I don't think he would have laid down to tap a nap if he were in the middle of trying to find his wife for a big real estate swindle at the bank.

All in all I dismiss Lincoln's hypothesis. Not to say there can't be bits and pieces of it that are pointing in the right direction. But then on top of all this she throws in the epilepsy....

IF Lizzie had her hat, preparing to leave, that pretty much removes any suspicion about a plan to whack Andy. I still say she left the house to provide privacy to Andy's meeting with a secret visitor.
The position of Andy's body suggests he was sitting up when hacked on his left from a right-handed person. IMO

RayS · Post by **RayS** » Sat Jul 08, 2006 12:10 pm

Kat @ Sat Jul 08, 2006 2:37 am wrote:Well, Lizzie puts down a hat in the dining room, according to her testimony, but she doesn't say she was wearing a hat.. I can actually visualize a young woman carrying a hat they have no intention of wearing, just to show, in public in those times, that they might have been wearing it.

Is Lincoln where we get that story that Andrew was home early? I've always wondered where that came from.

Then or now, wouldn't a lady put on a hat in front of a mirror as she was preparing to leave the house? That's how I remember things when women wore hats, back in the olden days (1960s-1970s).

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sat Jul 08, 2006 3:00 pm

Lizzie says she was returning to the house from the barn, not that she was preparing to leave. Why would she grab a hat to go to the barn is the question.

If she had killed Andrew with a hat on to protect her hair from blood, then went to the barn to clean up, then returned to the house to set her hat down, that might make more sense. I wonder if anyone checked her hat.

Yooper · Post by **Yooper** » Sat Jul 08, 2006 6:33 pm

A hatchet or hatchet head, carried next to or within(?) a hat would be difficult to recognize. Lubinsky saw a woman, not Bridget, walking from the yard to the house.

Richard · Post by **Richard** » Sat Jul 08, 2006 9:55 pm

Perhaps the hat had something to do with the heat? Or very intense sunlight? I did notice that Abby had a scarf on when she was murdered (I read in the Hatchet that the blood stained scarf, still torn from the hatchet blows, is in the Historical Society). Abby certainly wasn't outside in the sun or was going out in any way (unless we believe Lizzie that she got a telegram). Why would she wear a scarf indoors while cleaning the guest bedroom?

Does anyone have any opinion as to what direction Abby was facing in when she was hit. The first blow was on the right side of the head and then she fell into the position where she was found, head facing East. But that doesn't mean she was facing East when she was hit. For years I just visualized it as she was standing facing the East wall, started turning around, got hit, and then fell forward. But what could she have been doing in that corner of the room facing East? If she was making the bed or dressing the pillows, she would have seen the killer enter the room before the killer could get behind her to whack her. That always made me think that Lizzie did it since Abby wouldn"t have thought twice about Lizzie coming into the room and walking around behind her.

Yooper · Post by **Yooper** » Sat Jul 08, 2006 10:09 pm

I think the nature of Abby's murder was by someone with an intense hatred of her because of the number of blows, and it was done by someone who would have been allowed within Abby's "alarm" distance, someone not a stranger. A hatchet is a short-range weapon, it only increases your reach by about a foot. I don't think a stranger could have approached Abby that closely from the front without some kind of commotion on Abby's part.

I can envision Lizzie kneeling by the bed, perhaps looking under it, and Abby coming in and kneeling in front of Lizzie to help look for whatever, and...surprise!!

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sat Jul 08, 2006 11:35 pm

A woman the size of Abby probably would not want to get down near the floor for any reason. It's too hard to get up again.

If she was already down there to do work, like clean spots off the rug, then kneeling yes.

Richard, someone would do well to lead you to a couple of discussions about her positioning so you can decide yourself and help you visualize. You would also do well to read up on our recent discussion of that kerchief.

myk7753 · Post by **myk7753** » Sun Jul 09, 2006 1:08 am

OK...I hate to do this, my weight is NOT my favorite issue to discuss...but here goes...

I am about the same height and weight Abby was. Mind you I'm a might bit younger and hopefully a bit more limber, but I can guarentee you, if I had someone swing anything at me, I would be down on the ground and in the "duck and cover" position quicker than you could blink.

If the "first wound" was made while Abby was facing her attacker, doesn't that discount any idea that she was already down on her knees searching for dust bunnies under the bed when she was attacked?

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sun Jul 09, 2006 4:08 am

Oh sure! Duck and cover yes certainly.
I was responding to the scenario that Lizzie was there first kneeling and enticed Abby over to get down and look too.

I can envision Lizzie kneeling by the bed, perhaps looking under it, and Abby coming in and kneeling in front of Lizzie to help look for whatever, and...surprise!!

--partial-Yooper

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sun Jul 09, 2006 4:11 am

Also it was mentioned that full blown hatred likely spurred the attack on Abby. I tend to agree. But Emma seems to be the one who had real deep-seated feelings about Abby- yet she wasn't there.
I can't always associate Lizzie and deep hatred at Abby. I associate Emma with deep hatred toward Abby. That is, if one of the Borden girls did kill her. This is my mystery.

Yooper · Post by **Yooper** » Sun Jul 09, 2006 8:27 am

I guess I need to apologize for responding to a request for an opinion with an opinion. I didn't realize it was improbable for Abby to kneel unless she was kneeling already. I'm really sorry for having been able to envision that scenario.

I also was unaware that hatred was a finite quantity. If it is, then clearly Emma had it all and there was none left for Lizzie.

Richard · Post by **Richard** » Sun Jul 09, 2006 11:02 am

Sorry, Kat. I did initiate the talk about Abby's kerchief but never read the replies. Thanks for reminding me.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sun Jul 09, 2006 1:38 pm

The only reason I think that about Lizzie kneeling first and enticing Abby over to kneel is because I had experience with helping a large-sized woman up off the floor Abby's age. It is very hard for them. They don't get down there easily either. You can have a scenario you thew out there-, of course- and if you wanted it read and wanted a comment, you got one.

As for hatred, I was looking at past posts of mine in the archive later last night and in 2003 I was still posting about the difference in the amount of *hatred* between the girls for Mrs. Borden and had said the same thing about that part being a mystery. I guess it's a mystery until it can be explained.