Scottish pride

DWilly · Post by **DWilly** » Wed Oct 05, 2005 8:29 pm

Where did Lizzie get all of this Scottish pride? From what I understand the name Borden is French. According to Rebello, Lizzie's ancestors crossed over to England with William The Conqueror. I'm finding ties to Kent and to Wales but no Scotland. Was her mother of Scottish ancestry? If so, why was Lizzie so big on it but not her French roots from which the name Borden came from?

Btw, I've been wondering the last few days if Lizzie picked the name of Donald Stuart for one of her dogs because at first she hoped if she had, had a son that's what she would have named him. A good Scottish name.

snokkums · Post by **snokkums** » Wed Oct 05, 2005 8:54 pm

I am not sure where she got that from. I just looked at her ancestry chart, doesn't even look like there is any french, let alone scottish in there. All the ancestors on that chart were born in England, then came over, or were born in Rhode Island and the like, from the English ancestors.

Audrey · Post by **Audrey** » Wed Oct 05, 2005 10:40 pm

I do not think Borden is French at all...

I believe it is English.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Thu Oct 06, 2005 3:03 am

"Borden" did start out in Normandy- as "Bourdonnay." Supposedly.
snokkums, what source are you using?

I think the Scottish fetish had to do with Lizzie's, and other late nineteeth century society's infatuation with all things British, and since Scotland was a big part of the Royal Family's vacation get-aways, it probably was part of the "romance" and mystique of the Royals. We did read that Lizzie had been interested in Elizabeth I as an historical character.

I think the term "croft", as in "Maplecroft" was a Scottish term, as well?

For Balmoral:
"Set amongst the magnificent scenery of Royal Deeside, in the shadows of Lochnagar is the Balmoral Estate.

Purchased by Queen Victoria in 1848, the Estate has been the Scottish Home of the British Royal Family ever since."
http://www.balmoralcastle.com/

snokkums · Post by **snokkums** » Thu Oct 06, 2005 6:10 am

The source was family ancestry.com and they had an article out and it was called Lizzie's ancestry, but it doesn't look like it goes back very far.

DWilly · Post by **DWilly** » Fri Oct 07, 2005 9:57 am

Kat @ Thu Oct 06, 2005 3:03 am wrote:" We did read that Lizzie had been interested in Elizabeth I as an historical character.

It's funny that Lizzie admired Elizabeth I. Alison Weir, in her biographyThe Life Of Elizabeth I, described Elizabeth I as having curly red hair and eyes that were "bright and piercing." Elizabeth also had quite a temper and she never married. Looks like Lizzie may have had her role model.

Edisto · Post by **Edisto** » Fri Oct 07, 2005 3:16 pm

I've read that Elizabeth I had smallpox early in life and that she lost her hair as a result. Supposedly the "hair" we see in her portraits was a wig. If that's true (and I haven't researched it personally) she could have had any color hair she wished on a given day. That probably wasn't true of Lizzie B, though.

nbcatlover · Post by **nbcatlover** » Fri Oct 07, 2005 8:38 pm

I had read somewhere (Hattie Borden Weld?) that Andrew's ancestors were from Scotland. Even Fall River's original name, Troy, which makes me think of the Trojan War, was supposedly tied to a town or region of Scotland.

In the Cute Baby Names site, Borden is listed as being of English origin meaning "From the valley of the boar." I had seen this before in someone's personal genealogy research. It is possible for a surname to have two different origins and original spellings, which over time and in a small location, merge into a single last name.

http://www.cutebabyname.com/names-b-7.html

I also came across a site for a Boddens family in the Cayman Islands whose ancestors were also Bordens and Bowdens. Too bad Lizzie didn't know...with her money, she could have had an excellent Caribbean vacation.

http://www3.sympatico.ca/cfrolick/bodorg.html

My last name is Avila (Portuguese/Spanish origin) and Des Valles in French is considered to be from the same origin/same last name in some genealogy sources.

Audrey · Post by **Audrey** » Fri Oct 07, 2005 10:20 pm

I have been interested in Lizzie's interest in ElizabethI and thought about writing an article for The Hatchet comparing the common traits they may have shared.....

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Fri Oct 07, 2005 11:53 pm

From Rebello, page 1:

"The Bordens were of French heritage and derived their name from Bourdonnay, an ancient village in Normandy. The name Borden changed over five hundred years: Burdon, Burden, Bordin, Bording, Bordinghe, Berden, Birdin, and Barden. They came to England with William the Conqueror and fought in the Battle of Hastings, overthrowing Harold and the Saxon regime."

Lizzie's line of the Borden clan apparently settled in Wales before coming to America. Again Rebello, pg. 1:

"... John Borden, distrustful and intolerant of the Church of England and its demands, sold his estate and settled in Wales where his two sons, Richard and John, were born. They married in Wales and returned to the Borden neighborhood with the idea of emigrating to America.
The Borden family came to America in 1635 with the arrival of Richard Borden and his brother John aboard the ship Elizabeth and Ann. ..."

No mention of any Scottish line.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sat Oct 08, 2005 2:24 am

He's right.
And I've posted my sources for Borden name origin before (talking about genealogy) and I have about 6 or 8 sources, as French.
Some do not agree as to the Welch connection, tho.
Nothing Scottish. But Quakers, and Rhode Island, and New Jersey and Pennsylvania links later. There is a branch who went to Barbados.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sat Oct 08, 2005 3:56 am

I'm looking for cat stories in Pearson, and find a tidbit on Lizzie and Scotland.
Masterpieces of Murder, "The End Of The Borden Case," pg. 274:
"The psychoanalyst might have discovered, if he had his innings, that, at the age of eight, Miss Lizzie liked to play that she was Mary, Queen of Scots, and with this he could have done much -- without explaining wherein this differed from every other little girl."

--I don't know his source, and it may be toungue-in-cheek.

snokkums · Post by **snokkums** » Sat Oct 08, 2005 6:19 am

well, at least we know the name started in france.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sat Oct 08, 2005 7:32 pm

I wondered if Nanci knew of any Bordens in New Jersey!

stuartwsa · Post by **stuartwsa** » Sat Oct 08, 2005 8:19 pm

Wasn't Scotland on Lizzie's itinerary for her "Grand Tour" of Europe? Perhaps Lizzie fell in love with the country and its history while there. Perhaps it appealed to her romantic nature.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sun Oct 09, 2005 2:22 am

Bingo! I think you're right.
"They visited London, traversed Scotland, saw Paris and spent some time in Rome."--." Boston Evening Recorder, June 5, 1893: 4.
(R, p.11)
Also, now you brought it up, didn't Emma travel to Scotland herself later after she left Lizbeth?
Rebello, p.6, says 1906.

stuartwsa · Post by **stuartwsa** » Sun Oct 09, 2005 8:42 pm

Yes, she certainly did. The post card she sent Mrs. Brigham's mother-in-law was on display for a while at the FRHS. I wonder if it still is?
Too bad that no one can give us details about this trip, the way so many did with Miss Lizzie's Grand Tour.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Mon Oct 10, 2005 2:29 am

Kat @ Sat Oct 08, 2005 2:24 am wrote:He's right.
And I've posted my sources for Borden name origin before (talking about genealogy) and I have about 6 or 8 sources, as French.
Some do not agree as to the Welch connection, tho.
Nothing Scottish. But Quakers, and Rhode Island, and New Jersey and Pennsylvania links later. There is a branch who went to Barbados.

I just recently, over the weekend, caught a show on Cannabis and Hashish, and its history in our country.
I hadn't realized how popular these were up to and during Prohibition.
It makes me wonder about why these Bordens went to Barbados?
I was thinking maybe they were importers, if you know what I mean?

Trying to figure out what the lure was.

Jan · Post by **Jan** » Tue Jul 11, 2006 11:24 am

Kat, you are quite right, "croft" is a Scottish term meaning small farm and crofters are therefore small farmers (like my grandfather).

Curious that she chose a poem "My Ain Countree" by a lesser known Scottish poet, Allan Cunningham. I had never heard of him and his poetry is certainly rather maudlin (to judge by the verse engraved on Lizzie's fireplace(?).

RayS · Post by **RayS** » Tue Jul 11, 2006 11:53 am

Sir Walter Scott's medieval novels "Ivanhoe" were the rage of the reading classes in the early 19th century, in England and America.
James Fennimore Cooper wrote his novels as the American reply to Scott's novles. Just as Noah Webster began his dictionary to define American rather than English as the language and spelling for the new world.
A high proportion of American 17th & 18th century came from Scotland or the Scotch-Irish. The Enclosure Acts, similar to Eminent Domain, where the aritocrates seized lands held in common since the Dark Ages, and other lands so they could raise sheep for wool.
It is not uncommon for people to carry an ancestral name even tho they have little actual connection with that nation. Often the name has been Anglicized or simplified. Zebraskie Point actually refers to a Dutchman (?).

RayS · Post by **RayS** » Tue Jul 11, 2006 11:58 am

Kat @ Mon Oct 10, 2005 2:29 am wrote:
Kat @ Sat Oct 08, 2005 2:24 am wrote:He's right.
And I've posted my sources for Borden name origin before (talking about genealogy) and I have about 6 or 8 sources, as French.
Some do not agree as to the Welch connection, tho.
Nothing Scottish. But Quakers, and Rhode Island, and New Jersey and Pennsylvania links later. There is a branch who went to Barbados.
I just recently, over the weekend, caught a show on Cannabis and Hashish, and its history in our country.
I hadn't realized how popular these were up to and during Prohibition.
It makes me wonder about why these Bordens went to Barbados?
I was thinking maybe they were importers, if you know what I mean?
Trying to figure out what the lure was.

That show was likely to be just propaganda put out by the multi-millionaires who want to develop a new industry. George Soros, for one.

If you read a good history of the Revolution, you would know that the people who went to the Barbados and Bahamas were Tories who then practiced piracy and smuggling and other such professions.
Hemp was raised for ropes and twine. The flowers (?) may have been made into a medicinal tea, like sassafras. Home remedies were common in the 18th and 19th century, often derived from Native American medicines and practices. Bear grease anyone?

RayS · Post by **RayS** » Tue Jul 11, 2006 11:59 am

Many articles shown on TV are often just propaganda or have "an axe to grind". Do not make the mistake of thinking they are written just for general knowledge.
There is a message in the media.

RayS · Post by **RayS** » Tue Jul 11, 2006 12:05 pm

"The Boar's Den" could mean where the family originally lived. Caves are natural living quarters. Most people's surnames were derived from their profession or place of abode. Wainwright, Smith, Potter, Archer, Chambers, Zimmermann, DuPont, etc.
I'll bet a French person could name quite a few?

nbcatlover · Post by **nbcatlover** » Tue Jul 11, 2006 11:07 pm

I always thought the Scottish pride came through the Morrison line (i.e. Rhoda Morrison) on her mother's side. Though Clan Morrison says they were of Scandinavian descent--see http://www.electricscotland.com/webclan ... riso2.html

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Wed Jul 12, 2006 5:56 am

Thank you Cynthia for getting us back on track here!

nbcatlover · Post by **nbcatlover** » Sun Jul 16, 2006 10:23 am

Lizzie also had those "Robinson" cousins. While usually thought of as an English or Irish surname, there is also a Clan Robinson for the scottish branch.

http://www.chebucto.ns.ca/Heritage/FSCN ... inson.html