What Led You To Lizzie?

[Audrey]

I admit I am not as up on this whole A. Brown things as others on this board are. Could someone, please, explain exactly what investigation Brown conducted? Who did he interview? How did he prove that Andrew was Billy's father? Are Brown's notes available?

His bibliography shows nothing but previously published works by other authors.

I think he pulled most of it out of his ass

[theebmonique]

...and the crowd began to cheer...and cheer...and CHEER...celebrating in wild abandonment !


Tracy...

[RayS]

Btw, if I am not mistaken, a not guilty verdict doesn't mean the person was innocent. Only that the State failed to prove its case.

It is the same thing. Like whether a glass is half-empty or half-full.
If the State, with all its power, cannot find a person guilty, then it often means "not guilty".
Think of some white-collar crime where the defendant is acquitted. Innocent, yes?
What about a conviction that is later overturned, like Dr. Sam Sheppard or Tom Mooney? Don't forget Jack Kehoe, judicially murdered in 1879 but given a posthumous pardon in 1979.
You can look up these cases, as interesting in their day as L. Borden.

[RayS]

I admit I am not as up on this whole A. Brown things as others on this board are. Could someone, please, explain exactly what investigation Brown conducted? Who did he interview? How did he prove that Andrew was Billy's father? Are Brown's notes available?

It is just a matter of time and research. You should have read David Kent's book for an overall viewpoint. And other books as you may. Then read Arnold Brown's book for a final solution to the murders (because no one has ever published another book with a solution to the murders).

You can read the Acknowledgment for who he contacted, and the chapter that explains his research.
Brown was not a professional writer, he came across Hawthorne's memoirs, read and investigated, then wrote this book. Brown is honest enough to admit he has no proof of William Borden's parentage. Compare this to the other professional writers who talk as if their solution was based on Official Fact (a trial).

[Smudgeman]

no proof

You hit the nail right on the head Rays, NO Proof. It is fantasy, not a solution.

[Kat]

I don't understand a prejudice towards the "facts" and "the trial." In the same post espousing Brown of the great solver of the mystery with questionable *facts.*

Len Rebello's book acknowledgments far surpass Arnold Brown's. Have you read Rebello Ray? How about dragging yourself into the 21st century?
(The smile is because in other ways than *Lizzie* I've had to drag myself into this century so I know whereof I speak).

[Audrey]

I admit I am not as up on this whole A. Brown things as others on this board are. Could someone, please, explain exactly what investigation Brown conducted? Who did he interview? How did he prove that Andrew was Billy's father? Are Brown's notes available?

It is just a matter of time and research. You should have read David Kent's book for an overall viewpoint. And other books as you may. Then read Arnold Brown's book for a final solution to the murders (because no one has ever published another book with a solution to the murders).

You can read the Acknowledgment for who he contacted, and the chapter that explains his research.
Brown was not a professional writer, he came across Hawthorne's memoirs, read and investigated, then wrote this book. Brown is honest enough to admit he has no proof of William Borden's parentage. Compare this to the other professional writers who talk as if their solution was based on Official Fact (a trial).

Ray... Do my eyes deceive me or do you 'claim' in one sentence that no one else has ever published with a 'solution' to the murders and in your next paragraph urge the unseen voices in your head to compare this to the other professional writers who talk as if their 'solution' was based on official fact?

[RayS]

no proof

You hit the nail right on the head Rays, NO Proof. It is fantasy, not a solution.

You are wrong again. Nobody has any documentary proof for a conviction, now or then. It is just whose argument is best believed by the jury in the Court of Public Opinion. Just like a real court case.

Arnold Brown explains how he was given the memoirs of Henry Hawthorne. He studied them, then did his own research. If you read the book you should know this.

[RayS]

I don't understand a prejudice towards the "facts" and "the trial." In the same post espousing Brown of the great solver of the mystery with questionable *facts.*

Len Rebello's book acknowledgments far surpass Arnold Brown's. Have you read Rebello Ray? How about dragging yourself into the 21st century?
(The smile is because in other ways than *Lizzie* I've had to drag myself into this century so I know whereof I speak).

I have not read Rebello's book. Does it have any definitive answers?
Libraries use the Virginia Kirkus Reviews for acquiring books; what did they say about it? If the County Library system has it, then maybe. I suspect many of the people around in the late 1980s are no longer available for questioning. Quality, not quantity.

A Trial Transcript only shows what the lawyers wanted to go in; it doesn't show the background facts that were left out. In any event, the 'not guilty' verdict says Lizzie didn't do it. After the trial "Todd Lunday" gave his solution, where he suspects a secret visitor did it (read between the lines).

Arnold Brown didn't keep anything hid. He told about the Henry Hawthorne memoirs, and his further investigation. Has anyone checked the same sources? If not, what does that mean?

Nobody has come up with a better solution. Will they ever?

[RayS]

Ray... Do my eyes deceive me or do you 'claim' in one sentence that no one else has ever published with a 'solution' to the murders and in your next paragraph urge the unseen voices in your head to compare this to the other professional writers who talk as if their 'solution' was based on official fact?

Yes, your mind has deceived you. While others have published their solution, none admitted they have no documentary proof for it.
No documentary proof of any solution exists or will be found. Else there would be no controversy.
Or maybe there would be with some people.

Happy Bastille Day to everyone!

[Bob Gutowski]

While others have published their solution, none admitted they have no documentary proof for it.

I've figured it out. This is the same kind of weird non-reasoning Lizzie provided in her inquest testimony. I KNEW there was a connection!

"That was the winter the river froze over, and they went across, was it not?"

[Mossy Oak Mudslinger]

I think it was the movie or the documentaries that got me started. And I've always liked whodunnit murder mysteries, you know, when you already know who did it but you can't figure out how they did it. I always like to try and figure it out.

Also the fact that it took place in Fall River, Mass. I was born and spent my first several years in a town very close to Fall River. Much of my family is from all over Massachusetts. So I feel a little connection there.

And I was always interested in the Victorian Era. These are the things that got me very interested in the case.

[Kat]

If I recall correctly, Brown claimed he couldn't find the documents he needed to defend the relationship of Billie Borden to Andrew etc., including claiming the Taunton asylum had no records? I'm not sure about that- but I do recall that Brown's claims of a paucity of records was disproven in the research done and presented in the LBQ- which I keep linking to when this subject comes up.

It's transcribed at the website. Mr. Bertolet gave permission.
By Jon Keller, it's about 1/2 way down.

http://lizzieandrewborden.com/NewResear ... oversy.htm

[Kat]

BTW: Hi Mossy Oak Mudslinger! Thanks for the reply.
It's an interesting question, this topic.

[RayS]

If I recall correctly, Brown claimed he couldn't find the documents he needed to defend the relationship of Billie Borden to Andrew etc., including claiming the Taunton asylum had no records? I'm not sure about that- but I do recall that Brown's claims of a paucity of records was disproven in the research done and presented in the LBQ- which I keep linking to when this subject comes up.

It's transcribed at the website. Mr. Bertolet gave permission.
By Jon Keller, it's about 1/2 way down.

http://lizzieandrewborden.com/NewResear ... oversy.htm

Yes, you are right about the lack of birth certificate (which implies something) or his inability to access the Hospital records, then.
In addition, no one has documentary proof of who did the murder.

[Kat]

Lunday concluded that nobody killed the Bordens.

Todd Lunday
(Caps are in the transcription)

"Now what are we to say of the case? This: At a

56

recent court convened according to the laws of the. commonwealth of Massachusetts, the first party of the only two who could have committed the deed, the Party of
unhindered opportunity was declared not guilty, AND I HAVE DEMONSTRATED IN THE PAGES OF THIS VOLUME THE ABSOLUTE AND ENTIRE INNOCENCE OF THE SECOND PARTY, LEAVING NO GROUNDS FOR ANY DOUBT. IT, THEREFORE, FOLLOWS THAT NO MURDER WAS COMMITTED. O LAND OF THE FREE IN WHICH THE FOULEST OF CRIMES MAY BE COMMITTED IN THE QUIET OF THE HOME, EVEN IN THE OPEN BLAZE OF MIDDAY, AND YET NOBODY THE DOER!"

--Sorry about the caps- it comes that way.

[DWilly]

no proof

You hit the nail right on the head Rays, NO Proof. It is fantasy, not a solution.

You are wrong again. Nobody has any documentary proof for a conviction, now or then. It is just whose argument is best believed by the jury in the Court of Public Opinion. Just like a real court case.

Arnold Brown explains how he was given the memoirs of Henry Hawthorne. He studied them, then did his own research. If you read the book you should know this.

Where can I see and read the memoirs of Henry Hawthorne? Not in a book but the actual memoirs.

[RayS]

no proof

You hit the nail right on the head Rays, NO Proof. It is fantasy, not a solution.

You are wrong again. Nobody has any documentary proof for a conviction, now or then. It is just whose argument is best believed by the jury in the Court of Public Opinion. Just like a real court case.

Arnold Brown explains how he was given the memoirs of Henry Hawthorne. He studied them, then did his own research. If you read the book you should know this.

Where can I see and read the memoirs of Henry Hawthorne? Not in a book but the actual memoirs.

I think somebody said the notes were gained by a former member who died. I have no idea where it could be, or how you could gain access (unless deposited in reliable place like a college library).
I wonder if there is anything is Rebello's book that could disprove, or prove, Brown's solution.
1) the murders were done by a visitor whose presence was kept secret;
2) this person was William Borden, the illegitimate son of Andy and his cousin's wife.
(I wonder if "Peyton Place" had any such stories?) Surely not an impossible thing to happen, then or now?

Doesn't the first part of the solution make sense given all you know?

[Kat]

We do have the collection of items pertaining to Pete Peterson. We will work it up in some way, probably for the magazine. It is from a collection we gained.

I think this "illegtimate son" should be referred to (responsibly) as speculative, or theorhetical, or *possible*- otherwise it is a malign against the House of Borden.

[RayS]

...
His bibliography shows nothing but previously published works by other authors.

I think he pulled most of it out of his ass

That shows he was not making up his story!!!
Is the phrase in italics some idiomatic expression from Iowa or France?
Do you have any pictures or documentary proof showing his access to this story?

[RayS]

We do have the collection of items pertaining to Pete Peterson. We will work it up in some way, probably for the magazine. It is from a collection we gained.

I think this "illegtimate son" should be referred to (responsibly) as speculative, or theorhetical, or *possible*- otherwise it is a malign against the House of Borden.

Brown mentions that the birth certificate for William was not available, and he explains Massachusetts law as to what it means.

First, were the items ever checked by a Qustioned Document Examiner as to signature, ink, and paper? No sense wasting time on a possible "story".
Will they be photographed or merely copied for typing?

The "House of Borden"? Horsefeathers, as Andy might have said.

[Kat]

I don't call the victim Andy. He is Andrew Borden, deserving of respect. A man of his Quaker forebears would shudder at that nickname. I don't assume to know him so well as to call him that. Personally, I think it stinks.

[RayS]

I don't understand a prejudice towards the "facts" and "the trial." In the same post espousing Brown of the great solver of the mystery with questionable *facts.*

Len Rebello's book acknowledgments far surpass Arnold Brown's. Have you read Rebello Ray? How about dragging yourself into the 21st century?
(The smile is because in other ways than *Lizzie* I've had to drag myself into this century so I know whereof I speak).

IF Rebello's Encyclopedia of the Borden Murders ever becomes available in the County Library system, I'll read it.
Does it have any facts that would disprove Brown's theory?
1) The murders were done by an Unknown Subject whose identity was kept secret.
2) The murderer was Andy's illegitimate son William S. Borden.

[RayS]

I don't call the victim Andy. He is Andrew Borden, deserving of respect. A man of his Quaker forebears would shudder at that nickname. I don't assume to know him so well as to call him that. Personally, I think it stinks.

I guess I don't agree. Yes it is familiar, but nothing a headline writer would not use today.
Any man who gets rich "by means that just fall within the letter of the law" is not one who I would respect. Have you ever known anyone like that?

[Kat]

So your intent is in demeaning him by calling him that?

[Smudgeman]

I highly suggest you read Rebello's book Rays. Even yourself have acknowledged that you have not read anything on the case in a few years. Since you are hell bent that Brown's book is the best solution to the problem, perhaps you should research further. Otherwise, why do you bother to visit this forum? You believe you have solved the crime to your satisfaction, so why torture us all with the same old responses on EVERY SINGLE THREAD? You have nothing to offer in a discussion mode, because you are fixated on one particular theory. It is really bothersome ,tiring, and shows your inability to be flexible and rational. You have NOT read Rebello, so HOW can you have an opinion on him?

[mbhenty]

There really is little comparison that can be made between Rebello's book and most other authors on the borden case. Leonard Rebello does not pretend to have the answers or solution to the Borden Murders. It doesn't matter if you believe that Mrs O'Leary's cow committed the crime, Lizzie Past and Present does not defend or dispute whether the cow could have made the trip in time to get back to the fire. That is not why it was written.

Past and Present almost stands alone as a reference tool and should be on hand in any critical study into the Borden Case.

Rebello lists both fact and persume fact without a declaration one way or another. Does not matter who you think did the murder, to disregard Rebello or comment on it as being insignificant is to display ignorance or at the very least rash disregard.

I enjoyed Brown's book. I enjoyed Radin's. I even enjoyed Spiering, and from all these I walked away more informed. To read Mein Kampt or Mao's Little Red Book is to walk away with a better understanding of what it is you believe. But to say that it is all rubbish and ignore what they have to say; you may be proving youself as one sided as they are. To better understand Radin or Lincoln it's a good idea to read Brown.

Old Abe Lincoln may be my hero, but that doesn't mean I should not study Karl Marx. So to say Brown has all the awnsers, thus there is no reason to read Rebello would be a dire oversight and incorrect. I'm sure that Ray would concure with me on that.

[Audrey]

I read the TV guide once-- But I don't think that is what is on every single night.

[RayS]

I highly suggest you read Rebello's book Rays. Even yourself have acknowledged that you have not read anything on the case in a few years. Since you are hell bent that Brown's book is the best solution to the problem, perhaps you should research further. Otherwise, why do you bother to visit this forum? You believe you have solved the crime to your satisfaction, so why torture us all with the same old responses on EVERY SINGLE THREAD? You have nothing to offer in a discussion mode, because you are fixated on one particular theory. It is really bothersome ,tiring, and shows your inability to be flexible and rational. You have NOT read Rebello, so HOW can you have an opinion on him?

Ever taken a course in Reading Comprehension?
I NEVER gave an opinon on Rebello's book because I never read it!!! I understand it to be an encyclopedia on the case, listing all known details.
Those who did can say if he has any facts that would disprove Brown's book: 1) a Unknown Visitor did the murders, his identity kept secret; and, 2) that person was William S. Borden, the natural child of Andy Borden.
Brown says he has not proof of that relationship, the birth certificate being kept secret (then he explains the reason for that).
As for "flexible and rational" what does that mean? That others will adopt the Brown solution? I challenge each and everyone of you to tell which book best solves the Unsolved Mystery.

[RayS]

There really is little comparison that can be made between Rebello's book and most other authors on the borden case. Leonard Rebello does not pretend to have the answers or solution to the Borden Murders. It doesn't matter if you believe that Mrs O'Leary's cow committed the crime, Lizzie Past and Present does not defend or dispute whether the cow could have made the trip in time to get back to the fire. That is not why it was written.

Past and Present almost stands alone as a reference tool and should be on hand in any critical study into the Borden Case.

Rebello lists both fact and persume fact without a declaration one way or another. Does not matter who you think did the murder, to disregard Rebello or comment on it as being insignificant is to display ignorance or at the very least rash disregard.

I enjoyed Brown's book. I enjoyed Radin's. I even enjoyed Spiering, and from all these I walked away more informed. To read Mein Kampt or Mao's Little Red Book is to walk away with a better understanding of what it is you believe. But to say that it is all rubbish and ignore what they have to say; you may be proving youself as one sided as they are. To better understand Radin or Lincoln it's a good idea to read Brown.

Old Abe Lincoln may be my hero, but that doesn't mean I should not study Karl Marx. So to say Brown has all the awnsers, thus there is no reason to read Rebello would be a dire oversight and incorrect. I'm sure that Ray would concure with me on that.

If you've done all that reading you would be a very interesting conversationalist. It is always best to learn about all three sides of a confict: the pro, the con, and an honest broker who can explain where each side is lacking or strong. Its rarely done.
I will check again in the County Library system. BUT, is there any proof that Rebello's book contains no errors? I hope not, but some may have said otherwise.

[RayS]

So your intent is in demeaning him by calling him that?

I'm not sure what you mean by "demean", or your hidden agenda.
I'm not about to treat him like some sort of saint. If I referred to a president as Harry or Ike, would that be a crime or sin in your religion?
As for Andy being a "Quaker", I don't believe it. I can believe him passing himself off as a Quaker (they had a higher reputation for honesty?) to better cheat an unsuspecting client.
"Thou need not read the fine print, thou canst trust me." Yeah, right.

[Audrey]

Kat has indicated that she finds the use of 'Andy' offensive. If you had any manners or respect for anyone else at all you would simply type out 'Andrew'. Didn't your mother teach you anything?

[RayS]

Where is the proof that "Andy" is incorrect or improper usage?
Let any descendant of Andy Borden speak out and I may reconsider.
Thank you for not ignoring me. I'm flattered that you think so much that you choose to reply. Have a nice day.

[Smudgeman]

I highly suggest you read Rebello's book Rays. Even yourself have acknowledged that you have not read anything on the case in a few years. Since you are hell bent that Brown's book is the best solution to the problem, perhaps you should research further. Otherwise, why do you bother to visit this forum? You believe you have solved the crime to your satisfaction, so why torture us all with the same old responses on EVERY SINGLE THREAD? You have nothing to offer in a discussion mode, because you are fixated on one particular theory. It is really bothersome ,tiring, and shows your inability to be flexible and rational. You have NOT read Rebello, so HOW can you have an opinion on him?

Ever taken a course in Reading Comprehension?
I NEVER gave an opinon on Rebello's book because I never read it!!! I understand it to be an encyclopedia on the case, listing all known details.
Those who did can say if he has any facts that would disprove Brown's book: 1) a Unknown Visitor did the murders, his identity kept secret; and, 2) that person was William S. Borden, the natural child of Andy Borden.
Brown says he has not proof of that relationship, the birth certificate being kept secret (then he explains the reason for that).
As for "flexible and rational" what does that mean? That others will adopt the Brown solution? I challenge each and everyone of you to tell which book best solves the Unsolved Mystery.

Reading Comprehension? I majored in English - how does this sound?

GO intercourse YOURSELF

[Audrey]

Where is the proof that "Andy" is incorrect or improper usage?
Let any descendant of Andy Borden speak out and I may reconsider.
Thank you for not ignoring me. I'm flattered that you think so much that you choose to reply. Have a nice day.

Ever taken a course in Reading Comprehension?

[Kat]

I'm just trying to get your motives clear, Ray.
You admitted that is why you call Andrew "Andy":

Any man who gets rich "by means that just fall within the letter of the law" is not one who I would respect.

--Ray
I would also like to know from where this "quote" comes?

[Harry]

GO intercourse YOURSELF

Now that's funny! Made my day.

Thanks Scott

[Kat]

You are blaming the victim with your choice of words. I was wondering at your intentions- so now I know.

[Kat]

Mr. Rebello adds a Note about his own search to verify records of things "Brown." Since not everyone has Rebello's book:

Page 379, as intro to his short bio on Henry Hawthorne, Jr.:

However, Mr. Brown's version of the Hawthorne family's movement from Fall River to East Taunton and back to Fall River conflicts with various documents such as birth records, city directories, assessor's lists and the 1900 Federal Census.

And page 380:

Note: There are conflicts with Mr. Brown's sequence of events and those reported in several documents. Mr. Brown wrote "It was on this farm that Henry Hawthorne, [Jr.] had lived as a boy." (Brown, p. 301), "... the old farm in which Henry had grown up, several miles north of Fall River." (Brown, p. 287) and they realized that Henry [Hawthorne, Jr.] was just a small boy when his family lived on the farm ..." (Brown, p. 288) and "About the time he [young Henry] was eight years old, Henry realized that grown-up Bill was mentally about the same age as he was " (Brown, p. 289)

The Hawthorne family was not in East Taunton at the time Henry Hawthorne, Jr., was born. The family did not arrive in East Taunton until at least 1898. They were there by 1900. East Taunton directories, City Assessor's Street List, May 1, 1901, and the 1900 Federal Census, taken June 16, 1900, show the Hawthornes in East Taunton by 1900 and listed Henry's father
as a weaver and not a tenant farmer on William S. Borden's farm. The City Assessor's Street List, May 1, 1901, shows Henry Hawthornwaite at Murphy Block (mill tenements and houses across from the East Taunton School and Corporation Block) at 233 Middleboro Ave, a weaver and in 1900 residing at Staples. The Staples reference may refer to any house on Staples Street or Charles G. Staples, a farmer, who resided on Staples Street. The Assessor's List, 1902 and 1903 listed Henry, as a weaver and his son, Lawrence, a clerk, at the rear of 132 Middleboro Avenue. No listing for the Hawthornes was found in the assessor's records after 1904. No explanation can be given as to why the assessor's list would record two addresses
for Mr. Hawthorne, one at Corporation Block and the other as a "residence, Staples."

Young Henry lived in Fall River until he was eight (1889-1897) and spent six years (1898-1903) in East Taunton and one year (1904) in Raynham, Massachusetts. Henry would have known or come into contact with William Borden between the ages of 9 and 12 (1898-1901) assuming the Hawthornes were in East Taunton in 1898. William Borden was dead by
April, 1901. How young Henry came to live and work on William S. Borden's farm between 1898 and 1901 is unknown. Perhaps Henry worked after school, weekends or during school vacations when he was in East Taunton.

Mr. Brown stated in his book that "Just before the turn of the century, Henry's father found a job in Fall River and the family moved." (Brown, p. 288-289) The Hawthornes moved to East Taunton before the turn of the century in 1898 and not to Fall River if 1898 is the year they moved. However, they were in East Taunton by 1900.

[Kat]

I am mostly responding to Ray so that others don't have to. He's being given way too much attention in my opinion. There is no reason for one person to be the center of everything as he puts himself there and we let him.
I will read Ray so others don't have to, if they so wish.
And we won't be piling on anymore hopefully.

[Audrey]

[RayS]

I'm just trying to get your motives clear, Ray.
You admitted that is why you call Andrew "Andy":

Any man who gets rich "by means that just fall within the letter of the law" is not one who I would respect.

--Ray
I would also like to know from where this "quote" comes?

Surely you jest?
As an avowed expert you know it came from Arthur Phillips book. I assume the book published under his name was an accurate quote.
I believe Arnold Brown, and others, used this quote to describe Andy. Louis Solomon did.
So what does Rebello's book say about Andy's character?
My use of the familiar is to try to humanize the old geezer. (Oops, I did it again!)
No I didn't read the "whittling" article on AJB, but could you send me the references in that article? If none, email it to me so I can review it at my leisure. Thank you in advance, for whatever you do.

[RayS]

Why not the well-known Pacman figures?
"I wish I knew how to quit you" goes a funny line from an unintentionally funny movie. I haven't seen it yet, just surmising from the reviews.

[RayS]

Where is the proof that "Andy" is incorrect or improper usage?
Let any descendant of Andy Borden speak out and I may reconsider.
Thank you for not ignoring me. I'm flattered that you think so much that you choose to reply. Have a nice day.

Ever taken a course in Reading Comprehension?

NO. I learned on the job (in school from homework).

[RayS]

...
Reading Comprehension? I majored in English - how does this sound?
GO intercourse YOURSELF

That reminds me of a movie with Humphrey Bogart and Lauren Bacall, based on a Raymond Chandler novel.
We only hear one side of the telephone conversation, but its funny.
"Why sir, that would be impossible!"

[RayS]

Mr. Rebello adds a Note about his own search to verify records of things "Brown." Since not everyone has Rebello's book:

Page 379, as intro to his short bio on Henry Hawthorne, Jr.:

However, Mr. Brown's version of the Hawthorne family's movement from Fall River to East Taunton and back to Fall River conflicts with various documents such as birth records, city directories, assessor's lists and the 1900 Federal Census.
...

Without seeing the book, I will take you at your word. It would seem that Arnold Brown did not actually meet and speak with Henry Hawthorne, and, relied on his handwritten notes. Could Hank's memory have failed him after 60-70 years? It seems that Arnold Brown worked from the memoirs and did not recheck the documents (assumed correct).

There are also financial reasons to delay reporting dates of movements, if from a low-tax area to a high-tax area. That is why eyewitnesses are often preferred to written statements; the latter can't be cross-examined.

Just recently my college quarterly listed the death of an individual. If this is the person who lived on the next block (same name) it is a few years old. I won't bother to research this.

[RayS]

Mr. Rebello adds a Note about his own search to verify records of things "Brown." Since not everyone has Rebello's book:...
And page 380:
...
The Hawthorne family was not in East Taunton at the time Henry Hawthorne, Jr., was born. The family did not arrive in East Taunton until at least 1898. They were there by 1900. East Taunton directories, City Assessor's Street List, May 1, 1901, and the 1900 Federal Census, taken June 16, 1900, show the Hawthornes in East Taunton by 1900 and listed Henry's father
as a weaver and not a tenant farmer on William S. Borden's farm. The City Assessor's Street List, May 1, 1901, shows Henry Hawthornwaite at Murphy Block (mill tenements and houses across from the East Taunton School and Corporation Block) at 233 Middleboro Ave, a weaver and in 1900 residing at Staples. The Staples reference may refer to any house on Staples Street or Charles G. Staples, a farmer, who resided on Staples Street. The Assessor's List, 1902 and 1903 listed Henry, as a weaver and his son, Lawrence, a clerk, at the rear of 132 Middleboro Avenue. No listing for the Hawthornes was found in the assessor's records after 1904. No explanation can be given as to why the assessor's list would record two addresses
for Mr. Hawthorne, one at Corporation Block and the other as a "residence, Staples."

Young Henry lived in Fall River until he was eight (1889-1897) and spent six years (1898-1903) in East Taunton and one year (1904) in Raynham, Massachusetts. Henry would have known or come into contact with William Borden between the ages of 9 and 12 (1898-1901) assuming the Hawthornes were in East Taunton in 1898. William Borden was dead by
April, 1901. How young Henry came to live and work on William S. Borden's farm between 1898 and 1901 is unknown. Perhaps Henry worked after school, weekends or during school vacations when he was in East Taunton.

Mr. Brown stated in his book that "Just before the turn of the century, Henry's father found a job in Fall River and the family moved." (Brown, p. 288-289) The Hawthornes moved to East Taunton before the turn of the century in 1898 and not to Fall River if 1898 is the year they moved. However, they were in East Taunton by 1900.[/i]

Could it be the "Lawrence" was the father of our Hank Hawthorne and was living as a tenant farmer during a recession or lay-off? People then or now do move around, especially if they do not own a house or property.
I do not see any contradiction between the Memoirs and Rebello. IMO
I hope its not my Reading Comprehension.
PS
Also, from my own youth, it could be that young Hank, like others, walked around the area with other boys. His memoirs are how he rememberd it.

[RayS]

You are blaming the victim with your choice of words. I was wondering at your intentions- so now I know.

"Blaming the victim?" Surely you jest. We all know that people who engage in risky behavior often wind up on the front page.
All I know of Andy is what the books wrote about him. Starting with the Pearson (Gross) book of 1965, Brown's book in 1997, and the others.
Those are the dates when I read the books.
NONE paint him as a charitable person (like Lizzie). But Lizzie, like some others, are often charitable when they didn't earn the money themselves.
You can't go from a poor carpenter to one of the richest men in town by being generous, and none of the others did so (I assume).

[Kat]

It took 7 posts to get those few points across? Are you trying to bore us off the internet?
7 posts in a row! That's got to be a new record.
What exactly are you up to?

[Kat]

Hmmm...Are you, by any chance, trying to influence the statistics?