Lizabeth's Burial

weber · Post by **weber** » Mon Jan 24, 2005 9:56 am

This subject is in the archives which I was reading...Kat posted a picture on March 25, 2004. Could someone (Kat) repost it as it appears to be missing (or at least to my eyes). Thanks so much.

Haulover · Post by **Haulover** » Mon Jan 24, 2005 12:11 pm

is this what you mean?

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Mon Jan 24, 2005 5:06 pm

That's probably it, thanks Eugene!
I was just thinking of that picture over the weekend because of the pretty scene with the trees in leaf and the dappling shadows- so different from Oak Grove in March or October!
I also was thinking there aren't as many tress now as then...

Does anyone agree?

theebmonique · Post by **theebmonique** » Mon Jan 24, 2005 8:36 pm

I have been to Oak Grove in May and October. Both times, it was a beautiful day. I would have to say there are less trees now than then for sure. The Borden plot is actually a very peaceful place. But why wouldn't it be...they are in a better place, and they all KNOW who did it !

Tracy...

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Tue Jan 25, 2005 4:42 am

I suppose less trees equals more plots?

Audrey · Post by **Audrey** » Wed Jan 26, 2005 10:50 pm

For some reason that photo always saddens me..

Of course-- I also have a great deal of compassion for Lizzie and feel very close to her emotionally.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Thu Jan 27, 2005 2:45 am

What is it about her that you feel close to?

Audrey · Post by **Audrey** » Thu Jan 27, 2005 10:05 am

The feeling of being an outsider.

Not being totally accepted and always being "Lizzie" and never being "Lizbeth".

So I have to open this can of emotional worms, huh?

I have done just about everything I can think of to "fit in" where I live...

I Americanized my middle name (the one I have always used) "Audree is now Audrey"

Although I gave my children what I call "Frenglish" names, I Americanized what we call them.

We speak primarily English in the home even though we are all at least bi-lingual and the majority of us "think" in French!

I work(ed) my butt off for various civic organizations over the past 10 years-- always agreeing to chair this, or that. One organization even made me their Queen!

I did everything I could and I thought I was "in".

BUT.... When the war was declared in Iraq and Anti-French sentiment was rampant.... I was ridiculed and ignored by the same people who had been my friends prior. Cruel words were etched into my car and my husband's office door was vandalised. It was horrifying, plain and simple.

I felt isolated, alone, depressed and frightened. It almost cost me my marriage as I was seriously considering taking my children and returning to France. For good.

I wasn't sure I wanted to live in a society where a 30 year old man laughingly taunted my 8 year old (at the time) child from the open window of his vehicle by calling him "French f***, oops.. I mean freedom F***... A 30 YEAR OLD ADULT MALE WITH CHILDREN OF HIS OWN.

I was called to the school because my sweet, loving and VERY tolerant and compassionate Alax got into a fight defending me-- "Martin's French Whore of a wife".

I raised my children to love and not to hate and they had to go out and be taunted, hit, laughed at and called names by the very people I had taught them to love and accept.

We were called "Howler Monkeys" and "Cowards".

Just sitting her typing this out and I am crying. It was the worst time of my entire life..

A lifetime of hate and taunts. Poor Lizzie. Even if she did it-- the penal system does not allow for that kind of cruelty...

Audrey · Post by **Audrey** » Thu Jan 27, 2005 10:07 am

Wow...

I never really knew why I felt close to her until just now.......

Like a ton of bricks!

Angel · Post by **Angel** » Thu Jan 27, 2005 10:59 am

Just continue what you've been doing- living your life with class. And don't let the ones without it affect you. They're not worth it.

Tracie · Post by **Tracie** » Thu Jan 27, 2005 11:59 am

Oh Audree, I am so sorry you were mistreated and your poor little ones too...

Please do not let those pigs get the best of you, I am ashamed for them.

Tracie

Bob Gutowski · Post by **Bob Gutowski** » Thu Jan 27, 2005 2:24 pm

Well, WE certainly accept you...and even quite LIKE you, cherie!

As the child of a dominating dad and a doormat mother, I've come to understand why, in part, the fury of the Borden killings grabbed me with such force when I was still so young and still at home under their collective thumb.

What a wonderful photo that is. Indeed, so sad, whether Lizzie was the culprit or not.

Angel · Post by **Angel** » Thu Jan 27, 2005 3:43 pm

Maybe my childhood experiences with a narcissistic mother in a very oppressed atmosphere are what makes me fascinated. I keep thinking Lizzie was the victim of emotional abuse from one or both of the Bordens and she reacted like a lot of people do in that situation by doing away with a spouse or family to protect themselves. Alot of us grew up in such homes but are able to cope better than others. Maybe she was unable to cope.

Smudgeman · Post by **Smudgeman** » Thu Jan 27, 2005 8:46 pm

I think we all come from dysfunctional families, I mean "Who is perfect?". We can all try to be like that "leave it to Beaver family", but the truth is we are not. Audrey, you are a special person, and from what I can tell, a very loving, likeable, and go tell them all to go f*ck themselves kinda person. Stay strong , and dont shed a tear for the ignorant ones............

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Fri Jan 28, 2005 4:44 am

But you and your family are innocent, Audrey, and Lizzie and Emma were not.
They were not innocent because they knew what happened and never sought justice.
They used their father's money to live in a nicer place and have nicer clothes and nicer jewelry and a nicer tea service. If they were innocent, and loyal they might have spent Andrew's fortune avenging him, but they didn't. Lizzie dabbled in charitable donations but she kept her share you can believe it. It was blood money, whether she wielded the hatchet herself or not. She shielded someone and she paid with ostracism. That was a choice she made. She could have left and moved away, not even far, maybe 25 miles and still have led a useful existence. Maybe she liked the attention, negative or otherwise. I don't see how your terrible ordeal can be compared with what Lizzie brought on herself. She could have talked- she could have revealed what she knew. She had opportunities to make up for these deaths by taking in Abby's family if she truly was repentent. She could have embraced Lurana and Hiram, who had once lost their only child, and gave them her presence as a solace for Lurana's losing her last brother, her last sibling, her last family member.
Lizzie had no sense of loyalty, whereas that is one of your greatest strengths. I do not see how you compare in any way, and I still don't understand why you say you see these things in her.

weber · Post by **weber** » Fri Jan 28, 2005 8:09 am

Audrey-
I apologize for all of those Americans who have treated you and your family with such a lack of common decency. For a long time, I think Americans have had a love/hate relationship with the French government- not necessarily with the French people. I also think that Americans sometimes have an attitude that "if you aren't with us, you're against us".
Americans generally will help out anyway we can- we are always the first ones everyone calls on, then when we need some help (like using airbases,etc), we are mad when we are thwarted.

You also live in one of the most conservative areas of the country (I am originally from Iowa) where folks sometimes see things only in black and white. I realize all of this is quite a generalization but this is what I believe.

None of this excuses the treatment you have received though. I do not understand how a person can suddenly change their attitudes towards their friend and neighbor without personal provocation. Althouth, it happens time and again throughout history- witness the Holocaust.

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Fri Jan 28, 2005 1:01 pm

I am sorry to hear what you went through Audrey. Especially that your children had to go through that. As a mother I imagine how helpless you must have felt to protect them from it. I know that in my area we had fast food restaurants with signs that said things like "No French Fries sold here/ Freedom Fries only." I thought it was utterly ludicrous.I can only think that these people who treated you and your family this way are very good examples of how shallow human beings can be, and I am truly sorry to hear it.

Nancie · Post by **Nancie** » Fri Jan 28, 2005 2:43 pm

Audrey were your children all born in USA? I sure
don't understand, we are so diversfiend, culturally
on the East coast, I can't imagine that happening here. Iowa must be a tough place to live! I lived in Vermont for 25 years and raised my son there, yet still I was always "a flatlander from New Joisey", the locals never really accepted me, yet they were never cruel at all, and of course happily
let me serve on all the local boards and do grunge volunteer work for the church and community! My son, however, was accepted as a "Vermonter" since
he was born right there. I think Lizzie must have felt that at least she was a born "Fall Riverite" and at least that was set in stone. As many jokes as there are about New Jersey, this is home to me, where I grew up, and I'm happy to be home where I belong. I feel for you Audrey and being so very far from "home". You are a real trooper to have survived so long, hang in there girlfriend! (Ha and remember when we were enemies, see it just takes
time and patience to get to know people...")

Audrey · Post by **Audrey** » Fri Jan 28, 2005 10:29 pm

Thank you all...

Your kind words mean so much...

Kat... I see your point(s) and you have given me food for thought... Which is why I like this forum so much! It is a feast for thought!

I did sort of think the freedom fries thing was sort of funny... My family very rarely goes to fast food restaurants! I don't like the food (overcooked meat , limp comdiments), Thayne is too much of a health nut and Alax has always been "grossed out" by meat and recently went all the way and became a vegan. The rest are too young to drive to there!

All my children are American citizens. They were all born in either Boston (Alax and Zack), Omaha (Joey) or here (the trips). I am on the other hand, NOT an American citizen.

You are all so wonderful.

Happy tears have replaced the sad ones...

XOXOXOXOXO

Madame Vivienne Audree de La'Paix-Martin

You can call me Auds!

Nancie... You get special ones all your own! XO

Davo · Post by **Davo** » Mon Jul 31, 2006 4:13 pm

Hello Auds!
Though a new poster, I must say I am shocked to hear about what happened to your family. This is America and people sometimes forget that we have a right to agree or disagree. And that just because our ancestors come from a certain place we should not be steriotyped. What really burns me is these morons picked on your children. That is totally intolerable! I too can feel the saddness in Lizzie Borden and have often wondered why she and Emma didn't ditch Fall River and buy a place in New York after traveling in Europe for awhile after the hubbub of the trial. I am part French as my great-great grandfather (Alonzo Lamont Precourt) came from Bordeaux.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Mon Jul 31, 2006 11:47 pm

This is an odd and interesting time to revive this topic.
Someone is reading past threads.

it is interesting stuff...

nbcatlover · Post by **nbcatlover** » Tue Aug 01, 2006 1:56 pm

Audrey, many of us have been attacked for our ethnic origins, regardless of whether we were born in these United States or not. Just remember that it is usually the scared, inept person who attacks the innocent because of their own fear and jealousy.

Unfortunately, their numbers seem to be growing as the media has embraced the "slackers." It's your success at "the American way" that makes you a target because of their own failures.

snokkums · Post by **snokkums** » Sun Aug 13, 2006 6:21 am

I am half Irish and German and Jewish on top of that. What a mix, huh?

But I am like you are Auds, I always felt close to Lizzie. She was the outsider; and I think that she went the rest of her life being the one who "killed" her parents, even if she was aquitted.

RayS · Post by **RayS** » Tue Aug 15, 2006 10:59 am

Kat @ Fri Jan 28, 2005 5:44 am wrote:But you and your family are innocent, Audrey, and Lizzie and Emma were not.
They were not innocent because they knew what happened and never sought justice.
They used their father's money to live in a nicer place and have nicer clothes and nicer jewelry and a nicer tea service. If they were innocent, and loyal they might have spent Andrew's fortune avenging him, but they didn't. Lizzie dabbled in charitable donations but she kept her share you can believe it. It was blood money, whether she wielded the hatchet herself or not. She shielded someone and she paid with ostracism. That was a choice she made. She could have left and moved away, not even far, maybe 25 miles and still have led a useful existence. Maybe she liked the attention, negative or otherwise. I don't see how your terrible ordeal can be compared with what Lizzie brought on herself. She could have talked- she could have revealed what she knew. She had opportunities to make up for these deaths by taking in Abby's family if she truly was repentent. She could have embraced Lurana and Hiram, who had once lost their only child, and gave them her presence as a solace for Lurana's losing her last brother, her last sibling, her last family member.
Lizzie had no sense of loyalty, whereas that is one of your greatest strengths. I do not see how you compare in any way, and I still don't understand why you say you see these things in her.

"The apple never falls far from the tree."
Just as Andy took advantage of the Brayton family turmoil to make a fast buck (not unknown in those times, or even today), so too Lizzie and Emma undoubtedly followed the advice of Uncle John to profit from the experience. Hanging a crazy person would not bring Abby and Andy back, it would create a scandal and name-calling (like the mystery poster here), and create claims by other to the fortune. All in all, from a business standpoint, Lizzie and Emma did what Andy would have done. IMO

Maybe its too late, but anyone w/ French ancestry (nothing wrong with that) could have said they were from Louisiana. Even Canada nowadays suffers from tainting by the morons of talk radio.

RayS · Post by **RayS** » Tue Aug 15, 2006 11:01 am

In France they are correctly called "Belgian Fries". In Belgium they put chocolate syrup on them, like pancakes. Or so I read.

I suppose we'll now call it The Statue of Liberty donated by the Freedom people?