Marianna Holmes

[Kat]

Marianna Holmes was a Remington.
Her daughters went to school with Lizzie.
Her trial testimony brings up some interesting topics, including that kiss of Lizzie to her father in his coffin before the funeral.

She claims, upon questioning, that Lizzie had been on the "Woman's Board of the Fall River Hospital" "for between two and three years."
She was testifying for the defence, mind you. In Rebello, the timing was more like 1 year- June, 1891, until, I suppose, her arrest, in August, 1892.
So she has exaggerated for her friend? And she too upstanding a citizen to be called out on it?

Later she is asked when she heard of the murder. She replies "about a quarter to twelve." That sounds pretty soon, doesn't it? From whom or how would she have heard? Then she says she went to her neighbors to talk about it, which sounds natural to me- but she did finish the dinner at her home before she went to see her friend, Lizzie. She said she went "after dinner, about 1 o'clock." To me, that sounds like the menfolk get their dinner no matter what happens.

Then! Get this: She goes to Dr. Bowen's house first, and he went over to the Borden's with her. THat means Dr. Bowen did go home for dinner- and that's why he probably sent his wife home earlier.

That's what I think. I think Bowen got his dinner that day.

[Airmid]

Then! Get this: She goes to Dr. Bowen's house first, and he went over to the Borden's with her. THat means Dr. Bowen did go home for dinner- and that's why he probably sent his wife home earlier.

That's what I think. I think Bowen got his dinner that day.

Ahhh thanks Kat! I'm still working on piecing together what happened thursday after the murders, who said what, etc. I also was under the impression that Dr. Bowen went home for dinner, but I didn't go through Mrs. Holmes' statements yet. This piece of Dr. Bowens testimony seems to suggest the same (Trial 326):

Q Did you subsequently see her in her room upstairs?
A Miss Lizzie?
Q Yes
A Yes, sir.
Q How long after was that, do you think?
A Some time between one and two.
Q The same day?
A The same day.
Q Did you get a message, or did Miss Alice Russell come to you with word from Miss Lizzie?
A Yes sir, I went to her room.
Q What did you prescribe?
A I did not prescribe.
Q What did you give?
A I gave a preparation called bromo caffeine.
Q For what purpose?
A For quieting nervous excitement and headache.
Q To bring on quiet, to allay nervous excitement?
A Yes, sir.
Q Did you give any directions as how frequently that medicine should be given?
A I left a second dose to be repeated in about an hour.
Q Did you subsequently give other medicine of that kind that day?
A Yes, sir.
Q In what way?
A In the same doses.
Q Did you carry some bromo caffeine over there?
A I carried some in a bottle over there to be taken.
Q That was Thursday night. Did you have occasion to prescribe for her on account of this medical distress and nervous excitement after that?
A Yes, sir.


This gave me the impression Dr. Bowen was at home when a message (by Alice?) reached him. A pity that the questioning here was so sloppy! I get the impression that bromo caffeine was not something that the doctor carried in his bag usually, and that he had to bring it from home, but I could be wrong there. If so, then the doctor would have to go home or be at home in order to bring the medicine.
I think Dr. Bowen left again immediately after he saw Lizzie between one and two. After all, he probably was at home when a telephone message reached him to attend the autopsy at 3 that afternoon (Trial 324) and he says he arrived a little late for the autopsy.

Airmid.

[Kat]

Thanks for the testimony. That is always helpful.

I wonder why Mrs. Holmes went to Dr. Bowen's first?
We were never sure if the Bowen's had a phone. But this fact that she went to the Bowen house first might suggest she was called by Mrs. Dr. Bowen? I had been wondering how Mrs. Holmes found out. Hmm. I think Mrs. Dr. Bowen got back home about that time, in order for Mrs. Holmes to have heard when she did? Is my timing right?

[diana]

“I made a sound when they told me Mrs. Borden was dead. I sat in a chair back of Lizzie, where she was sitting. . . .
Q. That sort of upset you when you heard Mrs. Borden was dead?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did you go home then?
A. Yes, they told me I was not fit to stay.” (Phoebe Bowen: Preliminary Hearing, p. 480)

According to this, Mrs. Bowen went home shortly after Abby's body was discovered. But Bridget says Mrs. Bowen was only summoned after they'd discovered Mrs. Borden upstairs. So I’m guessing Bridget and Mrs. Churchill go up and see Abby on the floor – Bridget is sent to get Mrs. Bowen – but it is not until she hears her husband actually say the words confirming Abby's death that Mrs. Bowen becomes really upset.

“Q. When you came down from up stairs, were more there?
A. Yes, my wife was there then. I told her to go right home.” (Seabury Bowen: Inquest)

Pinning down times is impossible, of course – but if we go by the telegraph stamp of 11:32 a.m. – and Bridget and Mrs. C. finding Abby’s body while Dr. Bowen is at the telegraph office – Mrs. B. being called over around that time – and then sent home shortly after that – the timing does seem right for her to have called Mrs. Holmes. And Marianna may have come over after her lunch to talk with the Bowens and get a few more details before heading over to the Borden house.

I know there is nothing definite to indicate for sure that Dr. Bowen had a telephone in his home – but both his reference to Lizzie asking him to telephone or telegraph Emma and his saying he had a telephone message regarding the time of the autopsy make me lean toward the presumption that he did. I just think a physician would be one of the few who had a home phone.

[Kat]

Wow thanks Diana!
I didn't even ever know that the Holmes knew the Bowens until I re-read this trial testimony by Mrs. Holmes.
I mean, they belonged to different churches, for one reason, and the Holmes didn't live in that neighborhood, and Mr. Holmes wasn't a doctor.
I wonder how - if it did happen- that Mrs. Holmes was the one *called* and or if other people were also *called* by Mrs. Dr. Bowen. Hmmm. We may have underestimated our good doctor's lady?

[Airmid]

Diana, I also think it's reasonable to asume that Dr. Bowen had a telephone. However, there's a piece of evidence that's confusing me. It's Officer Doherty's Trial testimony. In it, he describes how he examines Abby's body in the presence of Dr. Bowen. After that (Trial 594):

Q After that was done, what did you do?
A I went to notify the Marshal.
Q That is, you did nothing else in the house at that time?
A Not at that time, no sir.
Q Did you go to the police station?
A I did not; I went to the nearest telephone that I could get.
Q Perhaps you will tell us where that telephone was?
A Mr. Gorman's or Mr. McDermott's undertaking room, I don't know which.
Q That was not far from the house?
A No, sir, that was round the corner of Spring Street.


That's odd, especially since Doherty was together with Bowen right before he went to telephone the Marshall. On the other hand, there might be nothing in it. It might have been well known in that area of Fall River that Mr. Gorman had a telephone. After all, Mr. Cunningham went to Gorman's shop too, when he went to notify the police (Trial 421). Yes, I guess there's nothing in it. Sorry!

As to the timing of Mrs. Bowens visit, I think she went home about 11:35. She is there when Dr. Bowen returns from the telegraph office (Inq 119, Prelim 480, Trial 324), but none of the people who arrive afterwards mentions here being there. According to the Witness Statements, Doherty and Wixon (And Manning) arrive at 11:35, and shortly after them Allen and Mullaly (11:37 according to the Witness Statements). If she had been there still, one of those 5 witnesses would have noticed her, I think.

Airmid.

[diana]

Of course, I totally forgot that the Holmes would also have to have been "on the telephone" as well in order for that quick connection between Mrs. Bowen and Marianna to happen. Unless they lived very nearby?

I think the Holmes were at 67 Pine Street? But I'm not sure where that is in relation to 92 Second. On the map I have, it doesn't look that close.

[Kat]

Going north, Pine Street is just beyond Franklin.
From Second, you would pass Borden St., Pleasant, Bedford, Bank St.s, then Franklin, then Pine.

Here is part of an original Atlas page- sorry, I don't know the year.
The scale is 1000 feet to an inch.

[diana]

Thanks for that, Kat. So it isn't like they were close neighbors, right? The Holmes were quite a bit farther away than Alice Russell, for example.

[Kat]

I wonder how they knew each other? I think we know more about the Holmes' than we do the Bowens.

I think Pine began the outlying border of The Hill?
Harry would know.

[mbhenty]

Wonderful Map Kat. Pre 1928, probably late 1800s. You can see the Pocasset Mills are still there, which burnt down in 1928.

Where 67 Pine Street use to be there is a Housing Project there today. Harbor Terrace is low income housing. When they built Harbor Terrace they demolished many wonderful old buildings, incompassing about a two to three block area, and replacing it with ugly brick Federal Government apartment buildings. Not sure when Harbor Terrace was built, but I would say it was probably in the 40s. I use to live a block away.

The Historical 2 story colonial, the Lafayette House, was just a short block away from 67 Pine Street, and still stands today as a Museum. It was probably a wonderful old world neighborhood, but today it has fallen on hard times and that's putting it mildly.

So 67 Pine street is no where near 2nd street and was almost a waterfront community, high on a hill overlooking the waterfront and docks. After all, if you look at Kat's map, they lived almost down by the "Tracks." Pine Street at 67 was right around Van Buren Street on the map. Van Buren Street no longer exists and was removed, along with part of Elm, to build the housing project.

[Kat]

The numbers were changed in 1896, so I've been told, and so I think the Holmes' house is still standing.
It was #381 Pine in 1896. There's a current photo of the house in Rebello.

[mbhenty]

Oh Wow!!!

You are right Kat: Good point. I forgot about the number change. OK FORGET EVERYTHING I SAID. sorry.

Well that's a large difference. That would place them in a very good nieghborhood, near Rock Street. Much better nieghborhood then even 2nd street.

Sorry, egg, egg, egg, on my face......

[Kat]

Well, we got to read an insider's view of the downturn of the other part of Pine Street! We wouldn't know, otherwise.

[Kat]

Now here, this sounds like being snobby? I don't really know. It is worded so that I think it is clear Mrs. Holmes is Lizzie's friend, but no friend of Abby Borden, even tho she is a *parent* of Lizzie and they all attend the same church:

Trial
Mrs. Holmes
Q. Did you know Mrs. Abby Borden, her stepmother?
A. I was but very little acquainted with her. I have known her for a great many years---know who she was: no particular acquaintance with her.

Q. Did she attend church there?
A. She did.

Q. The same church?
A. She did.

Page 1499

Q. Have you within a year of the murder, say, seen Miss Lizzie and her step mother going to church together?
A. I did.

Q. Did they sit together?
A. They did.

Q. Go away together?
A. They did.

--I've not yet figured out the attachment Mr. and Mrs. Holmes had for Lizzie? They seem to treat her as a goddaughter, in my opinion.

[Kat]

Trial
Mrs. Holmes
Q. Do you recollect any other part of the conversation? Give it all.
A. Well, they asked her where she [Lizzie] was, and she

Page 1502

said she went to the barn; and they asked her what for, and she said for something to fasten the screen. I cannot tell you whether at that time she said "a piece of iron" or "a piece of tin" or "something." I heard her say all those things to different people.

Q. Well, go on.
A. And that she came down stairs---I mean that she came out from the barn, came into the house, and saw her father, then went and called Maggie, sent Maggie for Dr. Bowen and also for Miss Russell.

--I love this part. I'd like to think Mrs. Holmes almost revealed something here. She stops her speech and makes a quick change. It sounds like she was about to give something away, or maybe she was coached ahead of time as to what exactly to say and realized that and swerved back onto the script. (Meaning not making a mistake- but rather recalling how she was supposed to say this part of her testimony).
But- it could still be a major slip. Not necessarily that Lizzie did anything wrong- but that their stories needed to jibe.

[Airmid]

Now here, this sounds like being snobby?

I see what you mean, Kat. Mrs. Holmes is often quite elaborate in her answers and telling more than she is asked for. But in the part you quoted she isn't. One other part where she is giving these kind of very short answers in where Jennings is asking her about Lizzie going to see the bodies before the funeral. Is she embarressed to talk about those subjects? Is she holding something back?

--I've not yet figured out the attachment Mr. and Mrs. Holmes had for Lizzie? They seem to treat her as a goddaughter, in my opinion.

I agree. In the days after the murders, Mrs. Holmes certainly seems to have put herself forward "in loco parentis". There's this bit of testimony from Marshall Hilliard, where he describes what items he took from the house on the 10th (Trial 1121):
.... Mrs. Holmes handed me the bedspread and the two pillow cases. They was done up.
Q (By Mr. Moody) Of whom did you request those?
A Mrs. Holmes asked me if I wanted them. I told her if she pleased I would take them. .....
I see her as a motherly but bossy woman, who is happily taking care of "the girls". I wonder what Emma thought of her!

Airmid.

[Airmid]

--I love this part. I'd like to think Mrs. Holmes almost revealed something here. She stops her speech and makes a quick change. It sounds like she was about to give something away, or maybe she was coached ahead of time as to what exactly to say and realized that and swerved back onto the script. (Meaning not making a mistake- but rather recalling how she was supposed to say this part of her testimony).
But- it could still be a major slip. Not necessarily that Lizzie did anything wrong- but that their stories needed to jibe.

I wonder if there is anything in Alice's statements that could point to this. Mr. Buck was perhaps there too at that moment. He never gave a statement, did he?

Airmid.

[Kat]

You see - that part seems kind of generic to me. It might not be something someone else overheard. More like her general impression- it could be something she *cobbled together* from her memory of the day and evening. It sounds like that's possible, is all I mean.
I think she was there until about 8:30 pm.
She might have heard a lot of variations by then.
She also may have been beginning to say that Lizzie came downstairs and found her father.
It's a good point to check and see if anyone else repeated it just this way- but I don't think they did.

[Kat]

Mrs. Holmes describes Lizzie as reclining on her lounge during an estimated 1/2 hour search of her room and Emmas'.
What if she was lying on some evidence? A document? A weapon? The skirt or top of the Bedford cord?

She claimed she was weary.

Was it Saturday they took a good look at Lizzie's lounge while she was at the funeral? My impression has been that the higher-ups decided that lounge was suspicious -but by then it would be too late, maybe?