My Whittling on Lizzie Borden and the Spinster Mystique

ddnoe · Post by **ddnoe** » Sun Aug 06, 2006 7:51 am

Did anyone read my Whittling called Lizzie Borden and the Spinster Mystique? If so, what did you think of it?
Thanks to anyone who answers -- even if you are critical.

Kashesan · Post by **Kashesan** » Sun Aug 06, 2006 7:57 am

Where can it be read? Is it in the new Hatchet?

kash

snokkums · Post by **snokkums** » Sun Aug 06, 2006 8:49 am

Yes I'd like to read it too. I don't think she was an old spinster myself. I think she enjoyed herself right to the end.

ddnoe · Post by **ddnoe** » Sun Aug 06, 2006 9:07 am

Kashesan @ Sun Aug 06, 2006 7:57 am wrote:Where can it be read? Is it in the new Hatchet?

kash

(Denise) Yes, it's in the new Hatchet.

theebmonique · Post by **theebmonique** » Sun Aug 06, 2006 11:04 am

Since The Hatchet just barely came out, most of us have not yet had a chance to read it as we are waiting for it to arrive via the mail.

Maybe there are some who still print out a copy themselves, or who read it via their computers and can respond sooner. I ordered my copy on the 4th, and it usually takes about 10 days to arrive.

I am sure your article in this issue will be as wonderful as always. I look forward to reading it !

Tracy...

Kashesan · Post by **Kashesan** » Sun Aug 06, 2006 1:27 pm

I just read it, Ms Noe-A wonderful stance for us 'spinsters' I've read the Ann Jones book and was always sort of nauseated by the persistant referral to Lizzie's 'frustration' at being unmarried. And by all of the double standards bewteen spinsters and bachelors. They persist to this day, and I'm glad to see that you brought them to light.
(But the note to Mrs Cummings Dressmaker-what else could it possibly mean "...I dare not put my dream on paper" ? Had the recipient been a man, there would be no such nay-saying)
However, I very much enjoyed your article.

kash

augusta · Post by **augusta** » Sun Aug 06, 2006 10:59 pm

Kash - If you read the article in a past 'Hatchet' called "The True and Amazing Story of Lizzie's Gay Note", it debunks that note. I forget the issue it was in, but it was written by my favorite writer, Sherry Chapman. Gosh, she's swell. (Gorgeous, too!)

I always enjoy Denise's articles. I order a copy from Lulu.com, then read. Have not ordered it yet.

Mary E. Naugle is a favorite of mine, too.

theebmonique · Post by **theebmonique** » Sun Aug 06, 2006 11:11 pm

I totally agree Augusta...Sherry is "da bomb" !!!

Tracy...

augusta · Post by **augusta** » Sun Aug 06, 2006 11:25 pm

Ain't she, tho! She's - oh, I just can't say enough good things about her. Stefani should give her a raise.

Kashesan · Post by **Kashesan** » Mon Aug 07, 2006 7:56 am

I'd be happy to read it-let me know which magazine its in? (I've only downloaded 2 so far)

Best to all the contributors!

kash

DWilly · Post by **DWilly** » Mon Aug 07, 2006 9:26 am

augusta @ Sun Aug 06, 2006 10:59 pm wrote:Kash - If you read the article in a past 'Hatchet' called "The True and Amazing Story of Lizzie's Gay Note", it debunks that note. I forget the issue it was in, but it was written by my favorite writer, Sherry Chapman. Gosh, she's swell. (Gorgeous, too!)

I always enjoy Denise's articles. I order a copy from Lulu.com, then read. Have not ordered it yet.

Mary E. Naugle is a favorite of mine, too.

Does she actually "debunk" it or simply offer up other possible explanations for the note.? I myself don't know one way or the other what may or may not have been going on between Lizzie and her dress maker but I do agree with Kash that had the note been written to a man some posters would have a whole different view on the "note."

Kashesan · Post by **Kashesan** » Mon Aug 07, 2006 2:50 pm

Also, is there proof that that particular letter went with the envelope to Cummings ? I recall another note that was sent to "Mrs Cummings, Dressmaker" regarding the dress-fittings in the Spring before the murders-can that be the same envelope as the "dream" letter?
I would pretty much discount a romantic liason between Lizbeth of Maplecroft (or Lizzie Borden of Second Street) and a dressmaker. I tend to think the letter went to someone else-the woman who received the porcelain paintings from Tilden Thurber, perhaps?
However, I have not read Sherry's article yet, and I'm sure there's more to it there. Hope to read it soon.

kash

lydiapinkham · Post by **lydiapinkham** » Mon Aug 07, 2006 3:13 pm

Hi, Denise! I enjoyed the spinster story very much. Even in the sixties, when I was growing up, there were all the scrawny old maids in movies and TV shows--always homely and dull and desperate. Lonely, not alone. And there were the widows, who somehow shriveled up and turned into spinsters from being without male company. And I knew a few who lived down to the stereotype--probably because they felt a sense of failure. I did have the good fortune to know some very strong and happy spinsters and widows who led rich, full lives.

About Lizzie. I cannot imagine her marrying--even had Andrew died of natural causes and left everything to her and Emma. She was probably too stubborn and set in her ways to set up housekeeping with anyone. I think she might have fit in well among the one spinster group ypu left out: the Suffragette Spinster. She had the same passion for the causes of Temperance and Antivivisection. She also had the interest in the arts and theatre, if not the talent for them. She was taken up by a few of this group (Liz Cady Staunton and others), and had she moved to Boston, she might have thrived. But she was too determined to stay and "show" Fall River. Poor, poor Lizzie.

About Kash's question.
Sherry (the beautiful and brilliant), wasn't the proof in the envelope addressed to the dressmaker? I think you can probably tell that the envelope is the one the note arrived in. Of course, maybe one of those fitting sessions got carried away. . . . No. I prefer to stay out of Lizzie's sex life. But--I'm not sure the woman's social class eliminates the possibility. Lizzie may have been a murderess, but surely not a snob as well.

--Lyddie

nbcatlover · Post by **nbcatlover** » Tue Aug 08, 2006 12:25 am

Has anyone entertained the notion that Mrs. Cummings, the dressmaker, was not the end receiver of the letter, but merely a go between to protect another person's (male or female) identity?

Surely a dressmaker would welcome a supplement to her income and had access to many local homes.

ddnoe · Post by **ddnoe** » Tue Aug 08, 2006 9:34 am

lydiapinkham @ Mon Aug 07, 2006 3:13 pm wrote:Hi, Denise! I enjoyed the spinster story very much. Even in the sixties, when I was growing up, there were all the scrawny old maids in movies and TV shows--always homely and dull and desperate. Lonely, not alone. And there were the widows, who somehow shriveled up and turned into spinsters from being without male company. And I knew a few who lived down to the stereotype--probably because they felt a sense of failure. I did have the good fortune to know some very strong and happy spinsters and widows who led rich, full lives.

About Lizzie. I cannot imagine her marrying--even had Andrew died of natural causes and left everything to her and Emma. She was probably too stubborn and set in her ways to set up housekeeping with anyone. I think she might have fit in well among the one spinster group ypu left out: the Suffragette Spinster. She had the same passion for the causes of Temperance and Antivivisection. She also had the interest in the arts and theatre, if not the talent for them. She was taken up by a few of this group (Liz Cady Staunton and others), and had she moved to Boston, she might have thrived. But she was too determined to stay and "show" Fall River. Poor, poor Lizzie.

(Denise) Actually, I believe the only famous suffragette who was a spinster was Susan B. Anthony, whom I do mention in my Whittling. Elizabeth Cady Stanton was far from being a spinster. She was a married woman and a mother of six children. Whenever she went into labor, her husband would run the American flag up over their home because a new citizen was coming in.

About Kash's question.
Sherry (the beautiful and brilliant), wasn't the proof in the envelope addressed to the dressmaker? I think you can probably tell that the envelope is the one the note arrived in. Of course, maybe one of those fitting sessions got carried away. . . . No. I prefer to stay out of Lizzie's sex life. But--I'm not sure the woman's social class eliminates the possibility. Lizzie may have been a murderess, but surely not a snob as well.

--Lyddie

augusta · Post by **augusta** » Tue Aug 08, 2006 11:54 am

The article "The True and Amazing Story of Lizzie's Gay Note" is in the December/January 2004-2005 issue of The Hatchet (Volume 1, Issue 6), page 54-55.

lydiapinkham · Post by **lydiapinkham** » Tue Aug 08, 2006 11:08 pm

I think the go-between theory is new. Interesting idea, though.

--Lyddie/Mary

augusta · Post by **augusta** » Wed Aug 09, 2006 12:37 am

Interesting thought, nb. Of course anything is possible. But if Lizzie were trying to be so secretive about it, I don't think she would involve another person - that middlewoman would know her 'secret'.

Bob Gutowski · Post by **Bob Gutowski** » Tue Aug 15, 2006 3:30 pm

I just read the piece, Denise, and I thought it was beautifully written and extremely thought-provoking. I enjoyed your use of THE HAUNTING; I think one thing Eleanor and Lizzie may have had in common was a neurotic neediness. Are you familiar with THE MAGNIFICENT AMBERSONS? It has a wonderful portrayal by that Lizzie-related actress, Agnes Moorehead (she played Lizzie on the radio, and was the TV mother to Liz Montgomery, of course) as single, frivolous, shrill, troubled and ultimately bitter (in the director's original cut) Aunt Fanny.

How odd that THE HATCHET should deal with two truly depraved women this issue! I mean Mlle. Doudet from your article, and the heinous Mrs. Brownrigg.

ddnoe · Post by **ddnoe** » Wed Aug 16, 2006 8:06 am

Bob Gutowski @ Tue Aug 15, 2006 3:30 pm wrote:I just read the piece, Denise, and I thought it was beautifully written and extremely thought-provoking.>>

(Denise) Thank you very much.

<<I enjoyed your use of THE HAUNTING; I think one thing Eleanor and Lizzie may have had in common was a neurotic neediness.>>

(Denise) That is possible. Julie Harris' Eleanor is a powerful portrayal of a deeply insecure and even unstable individual. She often seemed to me to personify a lot of spinster stereotypes. I also thought the movie could have been called "The Haunting of the Daughter by the Mother." Abigail Craine could be seen as a kind of mother-figure to the younger caregiver who worked for her and later committed suicide. I had the sense throughout the movie that Eleanor felt she was being called back by her deceased mother.

<< Are you familiar with THE MAGNIFICENT AMBERSONS?>>

(Denise) Unfortunately, I haven't seen that classic.

It has a wonderful portrayal by that Lizzie-related actress, Agnes Moorehead (she played Lizzie on the radio, and was the TV mother to Liz Montgomery, of course) as single, frivolous, shrill, troubled and ultimately bitter (in the director's original cut) Aunt Fanny.>>

(Denise) IIRC correctly, Agnes Moorehead played the part of Leona in both stage and radio versions of "Sorry, Wrong Number" but was replaced by Barbara Stanwyck for the movie. "Sorry, Wrong Number" is a personal favorite of mine partly for the way it captures the sense of helplessness and confinement one can feel when sick.

<<How odd that THE HATCHET should deal with two truly depraved women this issue! I mean Mlle. Doudet from your article, and the heinous Mrs. Brownrigg.

>>

(Denise) Yes that is a coincidence. It just so happens I'm also very interested in the case of Elizabeth Brownrigg. She seems to prefigure the modern-day monster Gertrude Baniszewski who tortured Sylvia Likens to death in 1965 and about whom I have an article at crimelibrary.com. Why don't you check it out? I'd be interested to know if you see parallels between Brownrigg and Baniszewski.

Bob Gutowski · Post by **Bob Gutowski** » Wed Aug 16, 2006 10:25 am

Yes! I read Kate Millet's book on the case after John Waters wrote about Gertrude in his wonderful book, SHOCK VALUE, and I definitely see the parallels!

lydiapinkham · Post by **lydiapinkham** » Wed Aug 16, 2006 10:20 pm

Hi, Denise! I had no idea you wrote the Likens piece. I just read it last night at Kash's recommendation. Very chilling! Most disturbing of all is how she had that little band of sadists following her. One difference between them and the Brownriggs was the fact that they all were living in wretched conditions and filled with self loathing, which they seem to have taken out on poor Sylvia. Liz Brownrigg had no such excuse--just a strong taste for sadism, a taste that Sylvia's tormentors seem to have shared. A heartbreaking story!

--Lyddie

ddnoe · Post by **ddnoe** » Sun Aug 20, 2006 4:57 pm

One thing I didn't mention if my Whittling but is relevant to the whole discussion of "The Spinster Mystique" is the way "bachelorette" was used on the old TV show "The Dating Game." Given the light-hearted nature of that program, it would have sounded terribly awkward to say "Spinster Number One" or anything similar. The connotations of domesticity and celibacy that cling to "spinster" would have thrown a wrench into the proceedings (of course, some would find that a good idea!).