Tilden and Thurber Jewelers

bobarth · Post by **bobarth** » Tue Aug 08, 2006 4:27 pm

Just read a little on this topic from the book "Lizzie" by Frank S.
Do you think she actually shoplifted from this store? Or was it just a ruse to get a confession out of her? I believe the paintings were entitled " Loves Dream" and "Loves Awakening" Have been searching for a portrait of the Jewelry store and also looking for pictures of these two items.

Have been tearing up Ebay and found this:

Loves Reward Rockwell American Dream Collection Plate Item number: 330015745393

You suppose this is the same print?

Hope I am not driving you all crazy, I have a thousand questions and trying to be self reliant. Why is this case so consuming? Lizzie is all I care to talk about now a days. Am driving friends and co-workers nuts with Miss Borden. Have blood shot eyes from staying up late reading your archives and anything else I can get my hands on.

Bobbie

lydiapinkham · Post by **lydiapinkham** » Tue Aug 08, 2006 10:56 pm

If it's Norman Rockwell, no. The stolen piece was a painted miniature and probably predates the plate they offer. She paid for the paintings when discovered--that much is pretty well established. The confession story was urban legend. We just had a thread on this recently--just search under "Tilden-Thurber" or "shoplifting." Good luck, Bobbie, and welcome!

--Lyddie

augusta · Post by **augusta** » Wed Aug 09, 2006 1:11 am

I did an article on Lizzie's Tilden-Thurber incident in a previous 'Hatchet'. I wanted to find out the truth about the incident. Nearly every newspaper had a different story about it.

A warrant was made out for Lizzie. For some reason it never made it to court. I have not read that Lizzie paid for the items when caught, but she either did that or they thought she didn't do it and dropped it. (Common sense seems to point to her paying for it.)

I have a photo of the store, taken the summer before last. Last year, it was no longer Tilden-Thurber. After all those years in business. The photo was used in the last issue of 'The Hatchet' in a piece I think Lydia Pinkham wrote.

The confession is generally viewed as a false document. But I know a lady who owns a B & B whose family knew Lizzie. She said that one time a descendant of Tilden or Thurber stayed at her mansion, and that person told her there was a confession, it was kept in the safe in the basement of Tilden-Thurber, and it got ruined from flooding when the big hurricane hit the area.

I always thought that 'confession' never happened. But why would the woman say that? Maybe the story trickled down to her like that so the store could save face.

RayS · Post by **RayS** » Wed Aug 09, 2006 12:07 pm

augusta @ Wed Aug 09, 2006 1:11 am wrote:...
The confession is generally viewed as a false document. But I know a lady who owns a B & B whose family knew Lizzie. She said that one time a descendant of Tilden or Thurber stayed at her mansion, and that person told her there was a confession, it was kept in the safe in the basement of Tilden-Thurber, and it got ruined from flooding when the big hurricane hit the area.

I always thought that 'confession' never happened. But why would the woman say that? Maybe the story trickled down to her like that so the store could save face.

Why not just say "the dog ate the confession"?
Edward Radin debunked this confession around 1957 using a Questioned Docuement Examiner. Radin worked for a NY newspaper as a crime reporter (Herald-Tribune?) This is all explained in the Appendix to "Lizzie, the Untold Story". Radin says Edmund Pearson's book "Trial of LB" amounted to a literary hoax because it was so one-sided. True!

bobarth · Post by **bobarth** » Wed Aug 09, 2006 1:11 pm

You know I almost cried when I read about this incident and what they supposedly put Lizzie through. I was so mad at that jewelry store yesterday.

I found an article on the "Tilden-Thurber" fiasco on the Hatchet website issue August 2005 would this be the one you were referring to? If so I will go ahead and get it.
I also just subscribed to the Hatchet so I can keep up with you all and very anxious to see your articles and pictures. I bought 4 past issues and have not had time to go through them yet but they look most interesting.

Thank you again for all your wonderful help and information, I do enjoy reading your comments, very intelligent and witty group, thanks for letting me join.

Bobbie

lydiapinkham · Post by **lydiapinkham** » Thu Aug 10, 2006 10:11 pm

My story was on the kleptomania craze in general that swept the nation in Lizzie's time and whether Lizzie had the fever. Most of what we know of Lizzie's shoplifting is hearsay; however we have pretty strong reason to believe she did. The psychology of kleptomania is quite interesting when applied to her character. It fits much of what we know of her and her frustrations--guilty or not. That story ran in Spring of this year, so you would get it among the back 4 you ordered. The August story would be Sherry's, which concentrates more on the isolated incident in Providence, I believe.

--Lyddie

snokkums · Post by **snokkums** » Fri Aug 11, 2006 8:14 am

augusta @ Wed Aug 09, 2006 12:11 am wrote:I did an article on Lizzie's Tilden-Thurber incident in a previous 'Hatchet'. I wanted to find out the truth about the incident. Nearly every newspaper had a different story about it.

A warrant was made out for Lizzie. For some reason it never made it to court. I have not read that Lizzie paid for the items when caught, but she either did that or they thought she didn't do it and dropped it. (Common sense seems to point to her paying for it.)

I have a photo of the store, taken the summer before last. Last year, it was no longer Tilden-Thurber. After all those years in business. The photo was used in the last issue of 'The Hatchet' in a piece I think Lydia Pinkham wrote.

The confession is generally viewed as a false document. But I know a lady who owns a B & B whose family knew Lizzie. She said that one time a descendant of Tilden or Thurber stayed at her mansion, and that person told her there was a confession, it was kept in the safe in the basement of Tilden-Thurber, and it got ruined from flooding when the big hurricane hit the area.

I always thought that 'confession' never happened. But why would the woman say that? Maybe the story trickled down to her like that so the store could save face.

Or Daddy Andrew paid for it

snokkums · Post by **snokkums** » Fri Aug 11, 2006 8:15 am

Andrew probably paid for the items because he didn't want to be embrassed anymore by her. He was such a straight kind of a guy.

RayS · Post by **RayS** » Fri Aug 11, 2006 11:04 am

snokkums @ Fri Aug 11, 2006 8:15 am wrote:Andrew probably paid for the items because he didn't want to be embrassed anymore by her. He was such a straight kind of a guy.

My impression of Andy is that "his money shan't pay for it". Whatever he had to pay would be deducted from Lizzie's allowance.
Yes, I have "no documentary proof". its just consistent with his character. IMO

RayS · Post by **RayS** » Fri Aug 11, 2006 11:06 am

I wasn't around there in those days. Would it be the practice for a customer to take something and expect the bill to be presented later?
Back in the 1940s my Mom and others used to shop with a notebook that contained the costs of what they bought from the grocer. On payday they would settle accounts. No need to handle cash during the Great Depression.

ddnoe · Post by **ddnoe** » Fri Aug 11, 2006 1:15 pm

lydiapinkham @ Thu Aug 10, 2006 10:11 pm wrote:My story was on the kleptomania craze in general that swept the nation in Lizzie's time and whether Lizzie had the fever. Most of what we know of Lizzie's shoplifting is hearsay; however we have pretty strong reason to believe she did. The psychology of kleptomania is quite interesting when applied to her character. It fits much of what we know of her and her frustrations--guilty or not. That story ran in Spring of this year, so you would get it among the back 4 you ordered. The August story would be Sherry's, which concentrates more on the isolated incident in Providence, I believe.

--Lyddie

(Denise) Was there any mention of Lizzie's alleged shoplifting at her trial? The defense put on several witnesses to testify to her good character. It seems like if there was solid evidence that she was a longtime thief, the prosecution would have used it to show that she had a criminal type of character.

RayS · Post by **RayS** » Fri Aug 11, 2006 4:05 pm

That supposedly happened in 1897, according to the newspaper. Not the best sources. Years after the 1893 trial.
Events can alter a person't outlook.

bobarth · Post by **bobarth** » Fri Aug 11, 2006 4:46 pm

Thanks for the info. I had the August 2005 Hatchet issue and read the wonderful article in there. I subscribed to the Hatchet but have no idea how to access it online. Do I need a password to get in?

Great point, You would think if there was any truth to her shoplifting that the defense would have brought that up as quick as they could. I have yet to read through the whole trial transcript, but have them printed out and may read that this weekend.

doug65oh · Post by **doug65oh** » Fri Aug 11, 2006 4:54 pm

hi bob...

you do need a password to access The Hatchet online. You should actually have received that information in an email, you might check; if you've not received it, merely drop Stefani a note and she'll take good care of you.

lydiapinkham · Post by **lydiapinkham** » Fri Aug 11, 2006 5:01 pm

The Tilden-Thurber case was years after Poppa's death, so he couldn't have done the paying. The attorney who had the inside scoop on shoplifting was Jennings, and he was on her side. I don't think Knowlton wanted to muddy the legal waters with it. Since she had never been arrested up to the trial, I believe it would all be hearsay.

--Lyddie

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sun Aug 13, 2006 3:38 am

It is my understanding that the gift of the item from Tilden-Thurber was to Mrs. Preston Gardner, and that Mr. Gardner, a big-wig in Providence financial circles, paid upon notice of the object being stolen.
That probably quashed an arrest attempt.
Emma was close to the Gardner family and Lizzie and Emma had spent summers in and out of their home in the Swansey/ Somerset area, altho Preston was a cousin to these Gardners.

The articles by Sherry and Mary are really good ones.

Sherry's treatment, in The Hatchet, Vol. 2, Issue 4, "Lizzie Borden In Black and White" includes what newspaper coverage that she could find on the incident, an overview, transcriptions and gives her conclusions.