how happy was lizzie in later life

snokkums · Post by **snokkums** » Fri Aug 18, 2006 6:52 pm

I have always wondered how happy LIzzie was in later life. I mean, yeah, she had her inheirtance, and friends and stuff, but her sister wasn't talking to her. People still shyed away from her, and probably thought she did it or at least she was accused of her parents. She wasn't accepted in the high society that she so wanted to be apart of.

Richard · Post by **Richard** » Fri Aug 18, 2006 11:58 pm

If Lizzie was innocent, her later life must have been filled with a very sad lack of closure.

snokkums · Post by **snokkums** » Sat Aug 19, 2006 9:12 am

I mean, by hook or crook, she finally got the money and life she thought she wanted, but sometimes money and possesions don't buy happiness, no matter how much we try to believe it does.

RayS · Post by **RayS** » Sat Aug 19, 2006 2:48 pm

snokkums @ Sat Aug 19, 2006 9:12 am wrote:I mean, by hook or crook, she finally got the money and life she thought she wanted, but sometimes money and possesions don't buy happiness, no matter how much we try to believe it does.

I saw the Duchess of York on TV some years ago. She said that anyone who thinks money can't buy happiness doesn't know where to shop.
Does anyone else remember this?

augusta · Post by **augusta** » Sat Aug 19, 2006 6:53 pm

Richard - I agree. If Lizzie were innocent, what a terrible thing to have to carry with her the rest of her life.

Snokkums - I think the legend of Lizzie being lonely and miserable the rest of her life has been in some part rumor. Maybe in large part rumor. She was not a recluse. She still had friends in Fall River. Not many that were involved in the trial, tho. The Reverends Buck and Jubb dumped her soon after her acquittal. She never walked over to Alice Russell's again to chat about her premonitions. I think she had a hard time when she went into town. After the murders, she didn't go into town - only on rare occasion.

She enjoyed travelling to Boston, Washington DC, etc., to attend the theatre. It's said that she attended the 1893 Chicago World's Fair. It would be interesting to know how many times she went to Europe.

She associated with some prestigious people of the day. Mary Livermore stuck by her. She went to the theatre with a famous female author and her husband. She had a friendship with Nance O'Neil (well, Nance was 'theatre people' and they weren't looked up to in those days - but she was famous).

I get the feeling that if someone snubbed her, she just flat out wouldn't care. "Let them be that way," I can picture her saying. "I cannot change their feelings now."

SallyG · Post by **SallyG** » Sun Aug 20, 2006 1:40 am

RayS @ Sat Aug 19, 2006 1:48 pm wrote:
snokkums @ Sat Aug 19, 2006 9:12 am wrote:I mean, by hook or crook, she finally got the money and life she thought she wanted, but sometimes money and possesions don't buy happiness, no matter how much we try to believe it does.
I saw the Duchess of York on TV some years ago. She said that anyone who thinks money can't buy happiness doesn't know where to shop.
Does anyone else remember this?

Well, I don't know if money can buy happiness, but you can be unhappy in more comfortable circumstances if you have money.

snokkums · Post by **snokkums** » Sun Aug 20, 2006 8:52 pm

RayS @ Sat Aug 19, 2006 1:48 pm wrote:
snokkums @ Sat Aug 19, 2006 9:12 am wrote:I mean, by hook or crook, she finally got the money and life she thought she wanted, but sometimes money and possesions don't buy happiness, no matter how much we try to believe it does.
I saw the Duchess of York on TV some years ago. She said that anyone who thinks money can't buy happiness doesn't know where to shop.
Does anyone else remember this?

Yes I remember her saying that. Only thing I know was when I was "trying to keep up with the Jones" I was miserable. Always had to go out to and get stuff. When I quit doing that and was happy with what I had, I was much happier.

SallyG · Post by **SallyG** » Sun Aug 20, 2006 9:07 pm

Well, as long as one has a roof over their head, food to eat, a bed to sleep in, and a good, honest job, they have all they really need. As a child, when I complained about having to eat meatloaf for the 3rd day in a row, my mother quickly admonished me "Never complain of what you have. Always remember, you are fortunate to have it" I always carried that little pearl of wisdom with me, and no matter how modest my circumstances were, I was always grateful for what I had. Even now, when my husband complains that the outside of our house is in dire need of paint, and how he wishes we could have a better house, I remind him that many don't even have the luxury of having a solid roof over their heads.

snokkums · Post by **snokkums** » Mon Aug 21, 2006 7:37 am

SallyG @ Sun Aug 20, 2006 8:07 pm wrote:Well, as long as one has a roof over their head, food to eat, a bed to sleep in, and a good, honest job, they have all they really need. As a child, when I complained about having to eat meatloaf for the 3rd day in a row, my mother quickly admonished me "Never complain of what you have. Always remember, you are fortunate to have it" I always carried that little pearl of wisdom with me, and no matter how modest my circumstances were, I was always grateful for what I had. Even now, when my husband complains that the outside of our house is in dire need of paint, and how he wishes we could have a better house, I remind him that many don't even have the luxury of having a solid roof over their heads.

Your mother sounds like mine was. Don't complain at what you have, there are people out there that don't have anything.

Bob Gutowski · Post by **Bob Gutowski** » Mon Aug 21, 2006 5:05 pm

I remember reading that a friend of her later years said Lizzie realized she never should've stayed in Fall River. Whether she'd done it or not, the reaction from the town was the same. Lizzie was hardly friendless, but I'd bet she would've loved to feel like one of the town's respected "first" citizens, and not a pariah.

Richard · Post by **Richard** » Mon Aug 21, 2006 6:47 pm

Is it just urban legend but did she live long enough to hear the children's song?

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Mon Aug 21, 2006 7:16 pm

Bob Gutowski @ Mon Aug 21, 2006 5:05 pm wrote:I remember reading that a friend of her later years said Lizzie realized she never should've stayed in Fall River. Whether she'd done it or not, the reaction from the town was the same. Lizzie was hardly friendless, but I'd bet she would've loved to feel like one of the town's respected "first" citizens, and not a pariah.

Right you are, Bob. Helen Leighton, one of Lizzie's closest friends gave an interview to the Fall River Herald on June 12, 1927, some 11 days after Lizzie's death. In part it read:

"... Miss Borden was bitterly unhappy. Tragedy and sorrow ever overshadowed her. ... Much of the time she was desperately unhappy and she had days of most terrible depression. I know that in later years she questioned the wisdom of having remained in Fall River."

snokkums · Post by **snokkums** » Tue Aug 22, 2006 10:37 am

I can see why she was unhappy. Everybody was probably looking at thinking she was quilty or whispering about her.

Bob Gutowski · Post by **Bob Gutowski** » Tue Aug 22, 2006 11:48 am

Thanks, Harry! I thought it might've been Miss Leighton, but I didn't want to chance it without checking my books at home. Thanks for putting up the quote, too!

RayS · Post by **RayS** » Tue Sep 05, 2006 6:18 pm

Richard @ Mon Aug 21, 2006 6:47 pm wrote:Is it just urban legend but did she live long enough to hear the children's song?

Definitely YES. President Teddy Roosevelt heard it and promulgated it circa 1904.
Edward Radin quotes a then young boy who said there were many other stanzas, but weren't written down or published, and they are lost.
In those days, and now, it is quite common to create parodies of popular songs. But it could get you killed, as with Joe Hill.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Wed Sep 06, 2006 3:12 am

That *boy* was the only one that ever thought there were more stanzas that I ever heard about- but there were a few variations. A boy who can't remember these extra stanzas is useless to us.
Now, if you can find these stanzas let us know, OK? Thanks.

snokkums · Post by **snokkums** » Wed Sep 06, 2006 3:07 pm

RayS @ Tue Sep 05, 2006 5:18 pm wrote:
Richard @ Mon Aug 21, 2006 6:47 pm wrote:Is it just urban legend but did she live long enough to hear the children's song?
Definitely YES. President Teddy Roosevelt heard it and promulgated it circa 1904.
Edward Radin quotes a then young boy who said there were many other stanzas, but weren't written down or published, and they are lost.
In those days, and now, it is quite common to create parodies of popular songs. But it could get you killed, as with Joe Hill.

I can imagine there were all kinds of songs about that fateful day and about Lizzie herself. I bet she was probably wishing that she had moved somewhere out West or something.

RayS · Post by **RayS** » Wed Sep 06, 2006 5:00 pm

Kat @ Wed Sep 06, 2006 3:12 am wrote:That *boy* was the only one that ever thought there were more stanzas that I ever heard about- but there were a few variations. A boy who can't remember these extra stanzas is useless to us.
Now, if you can find these stanzas let us know, OK? Thanks.

Ha-ha-ha! Anything that wasn't written down is gone with the wind, literally. Do you know the variations? From whence came they?

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Thu Sep 07, 2006 1:31 am

Apparently a local variation was:
"And then she stood behind the door
and gave her father forty-four."
Pro-Jo,5-31-88, Paul Fletcher.

RayS · Post by **RayS** » Thu Sep 07, 2006 7:31 pm

Kat @ Thu Sep 07, 2006 1:31 am wrote:Apparently a local variation was:
"And then she stood behind the door
and gave her father forty-four."
Pro-Jo,5-31-88, Paul Fletcher.

I wondered if Judge Robert Sullivan made that up for his 1972 book?
How far back does this quote go?

snokkums · Post by **snokkums** » Fri Sep 08, 2006 7:30 am

I think there were alot of different ryhmes back then its just the one that we all are familar with is the one that lasted.

Jeff · Post by **Jeff** » Thu Sep 14, 2006 12:23 pm

I don't think she was happy at all. She stayed in Fall River in the hopes that the killer would be found and then she could rekindle friendshops and go about town. That never happened and she led a reclusive life.
I wonder if life would have been different for her if she moved to another
town. the case was high profile so I don't know if that would have made a difference.

snokkums · Post by **snokkums** » Fri Sep 15, 2006 12:41 pm

I think she would have been alright if she had gone to Europe. But I think she would have miserable anywhere she would have gone. Even in europe there was some notearity, not alot but some.

1bigsteve · Post by **1bigsteve** » Fri Oct 13, 2006 1:11 am

Kat @ Tue Sep 05, 2006 11:12 pm wrote:That *boy* was the only one that ever thought there were more stanzas that I ever heard about- but there were a few variations. A boy who can't remember these extra stanzas is useless to us.
Now, if you can find these stanzas let us know, OK? Thanks.

Lizzie Borden took an axe
and gave her Mother forty wacks.
When she saw what she had done,
she gave her Father forty-one.
When they both were cold and dead
she laid upon her nice warm bed.
But Lizzie didn't weep or run,
she took the money and had some fun.

I've always felt that Lizzie would have been happier if she had left Fall River and started a new life some where else. But I think pride kept her in Fall River. I think by staying she was telling the town that she was innocent and no one was going to push her around. In the proccess she shot herself in the foot. By staying to "show them" she ended up living a life that did not fill her with real happiness. I think we all make that mistake now and then in one form or another.

-1bigsteve (o:

1bigsteve · Post by **1bigsteve** » Fri Oct 13, 2006 1:19 am

RayS @ Sat Aug 19, 2006 10:48 am wrote:
snokkums @ Sat Aug 19, 2006 9:12 am wrote:I mean, by hook or crook, she finally got the money and life she thought she wanted, but sometimes money and possesions don't buy happiness, no matter how much we try to believe it does.
I saw the Duchess of York on TV some years ago. She said that anyone who thinks money can't buy happiness doesn't know where to shop.
Does anyone else remember this?

Joan Rivers said that years earlier. Joan also said, "Money is not the key to happiness, but with enough money you can have a key made."

I loved her three books, "Enter Talking", "Still Talking" and "Bouncing Back." If she can survive so can I. A very inspiring story.

-1bigsteve (o:

shakiboo · Post by **shakiboo** » Fri Oct 13, 2006 4:43 pm

I think if she had left, it would have made her look like she was running away, and that's what the people would have thought. But she chose to stay and I think because of that, she was innocent. But then it didn't matter to the people, one way or another, they (or most of them) thought she was guilty. The same luck that was on her side if she had done it, was completely against her if she hadn't done it. If you know what I mean.....

1bigsteve · Post by **1bigsteve** » Fri Oct 13, 2006 8:25 pm

Yeah, I agree. I think Lizzie was damned if she did and damned if she didn't. I think of that phrase I heard years ago, "The good you do no one remembers. The bad you do no one forgets." No matter what Lizzie did the town would have thought her guilty.

-1bigsteve (o:

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Fri Oct 13, 2006 9:06 pm

There were those horrible annual news articles on the anniversary of the murders, that went on for years.
There were stories about her in the papers such as a bogus engagement, and a warrant for her arrest on a shoplifting charge from Tilden-Thurber.
There was the *Interview* with Emma that stuck up for Lizbeth, no matter what she had done- and the previous week there was a sort of expose on Lizbeth and her life and neighbors.

I don't know why she would continue to live with that kind of news campaign, seemingly designed to embarrass her.

shakiboo · Post by **shakiboo** » Fri Oct 13, 2006 10:19 pm

I would imagine if the town thought that she was quilty, then the police probably did too, so they weren't searching for anyone else, so why would Lizzie think that one day the real killer would be caught? I can't remember where I read it, but, (if I remember right) didn't Lizzie and Emma put bars on the basement windows at Maplecroft? Could they have been afraid of whom-ever it was that killed their parents, coming after them? That fear could explain why Emma slept with an axe next to the bed.......Good Lord, can you believe she kept an AXE next to her at night?????

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sat Oct 14, 2006 2:05 am

I'm not sure we know who put the bars on the French Street house cellar windows.

I also don't recall Emma keeping an axe by her side? Do you know what that is from?

snokkums · Post by **snokkums** » Sat Oct 14, 2006 8:41 am

I think that no matter where she would have gone, Lizzie wouldn't hve been happy. Everybody probably knew about the case, so she would have recognized. She was probably better off just staying put.

shakiboo · Post by **shakiboo** » Sat Oct 14, 2006 9:34 am

I read about the bars on the windows in a post on this site from Dubiousmike feb-23-03 I guess he doesn't really say she did put the bars on the windows but implies that she did.....sorry and also about the axe being kept by Emma was in the house she moved to, she had stairs built and a light panal installed and an axe kept in a recessed wall. but still, strange behavior that suggests fear. Again with the axe, did Emma intend to use the axe to possibly defend herself? I just think it's ironic that she would choose an axe......WHY an axe???

1bigsteve · Post by **1bigsteve** » Sun Oct 15, 2006 9:00 am

I read that Emma did have a central light control switch that she could use to control all the lights in the house. I also read that she did keep an axe handy. This information was in a book called, "1000 Of The World's Greatest Trials." However, I don't know what the author(s)'s source is; an interview with someone, an old newspaper clipping, etc. It could be the truth or a bunch of bunk for all I know. That book was my first real contact with the Borden case (1974ish).

-1bigsteve (o:

snokkums · Post by **snokkums** » Sun Oct 15, 2006 6:02 pm

shakiboo @ Fri Oct 13, 2006 9:19 pm wrote:I would imagine if the town thought that she was quilty, then the police probably did too, so they weren't searching for anyone else, so why would Lizzie think that one day the real killer would be caught? I can't remember where I read it, but, (if I remember right) didn't Lizzie and Emma put bars on the basement windows at Maplecroft? Could they have been afraid of whom-ever it was that killed their parents, coming after them? That fear could explain why Emma slept with an axe next to the bed.......Good Lord, can you believe she kept an AXE next to her at night?????

Maybe the thought that the real killer would get caught eased Lizzie's mind. I don't think that she could admit to herself that she killed two people.

1bigsteve · Post by **1bigsteve** » Sun Oct 15, 2006 7:56 pm

snokkums @ Sun Oct 15, 2006 2:02 pm wrote:
shakiboo @ Fri Oct 13, 2006 9:19 pm wrote:I would imagine if the town thought that she was quilty, then the police probably did too, so they weren't searching for anyone else, so why would Lizzie think that one day the real killer would be caught? I can't remember where I read it, but, (if I remember right) didn't Lizzie and Emma put bars on the basement windows at Maplecroft? Could they have been afraid of whom-ever it was that killed their parents, coming after them? That fear could explain why Emma slept with an axe next to the bed.......Good Lord, can you believe she kept an AXE next to her at night?????
Maybe the thought that the real killer would get caught eased Lizzie's mind. I don't think that she could admit to herself that she killed two people.

I guess it is possible for a killer to go into a state of denial after commiting murder and not remember it. Shock maybe.

I saw an episode of Columbo in which a woman planned out her husbands murder in detail and then could not remember commiting it afterward.

Of course I am no head doctor.

-1bigsteve (o:

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Tue Oct 24, 2006 3:50 am

There is a guy out there now claiming amnesia. His family just found him because he was put on the news.
He went out to visit his mother and never arrived.
Somehow I don't believe in such a thing. I also don't believe *multiple personalities.*

Anyway, those books like *100 Famous Trials* are usually British, and full of errors. I think they were pretty bad at the facts of the Borden case.

It all sounds derivitive.

Good find, shakiboo- on the cellar window bars out of dubiousmike's posts.
You're right he did not say who put them on.